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Old 07-13-2018, 03:36 AM
MyFootsZZZ MyFootsZZZ is offline
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Ashamed of being an American?

We're in bed with some sketchy people, we're spying on our own citizens, and... Trump and his backers.

Anyone not particularly proud to be an American? Anyone ashamed? How long have you felt that way?
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Old 07-13-2018, 05:02 AM
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Apologetic maybe, but not ashamed.


I haven't traveled abroad since Trump was elected, but if I did, I'd probably wear a shirt that says: "I didn't vote for that fucker!" in large font.
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Old 07-13-2018, 06:15 AM
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I've traveled the world and met all sorts of people. One thing I've learned is that people are all just human everywhere you go.

Every country will have and has already had its day. There's nothing more wrong with the US than most other places, and we're still doing better than most.

But I do strongly hope that there's a long, hard thunk after Trump gets out of office for how things need to change to make sure that we don't end up here again.

Regrettably, the answers that most will float will be greater transparency and more direct democracy, which is just treating a burn with acid. I think the most that we can hope for is that, like Rome, it will take about as long to destroy everything as it took to build it all - which is a couple of centuries. Populism is too strong of a force and our species seems to be unable to resist it over the long term.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 07-13-2018 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 07-13-2018, 06:31 AM
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I think it's daft to be ashamed of your country - you are not responsible for the action of a few individuals making bad decisions, and it doesn't mean the whole nation as gone bad.

I'm British and am disgusted about Brexit, and disheartened that so many of my fellow citizens are so deluded into thinking it's a good idea, but that in no way means I'm ashamed to be British. There's still plenty of on my side, as there are plenty of Americans who loathe Trump, and everyone knows that.
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Old 07-13-2018, 06:35 AM
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I think it's daft to be ashamed of your country - you are not responsible for the action of a few individuals making bad decisions, and it doesn't mean the whole nation as gone bad..
Wish that standard was used for muslims.
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Old 07-13-2018, 07:26 AM
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Apologetic maybe, but not ashamed.


I haven't traveled abroad since Trump was elected, but if I did, I'd probably wear a shirt that says: "I didn't vote for that fucker!" in large font.
Yep. We're going to London in the fall, and I suggested that I could wear a burqa to keep people from noticing we're Americans. Husband threatened to wear a MAGA hat.
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Old 07-13-2018, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
We're in bed with some sketchy people, we're spying on our own citizens, and... Trump and his backers.

Anyone not particularly proud to be an American? Anyone ashamed? How long have you felt that way?
Of course I'm not ashamed to be an American. So, we elected a bad president. Hopefully, we vote him out in 2020, and at the very latest, he's gone in 2024 in any event.

Look around the world. America is still a great country. What happened in our country isn't unheard of, when you consider that demagogues tend to rise after gigantic recessions. It was obvious that the right-wing started to radicalize in 2009, and Trump was the outcome of that.

There are also bad things going on in EU countries, too.
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:12 AM
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We're in bed with some sketchy people, we're spying on our own citizens,
How far back do you have to go to find a time when these were not true?
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:14 AM
Ulfreida Ulfreida is offline
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I wasn't proud of being an American before, am not ashamed now. Where I happened to be born has no influence on my self-esteem. I don't influence the actions of our government to any appreciable extent. It would be like a drop of water being proud of being part of an ocean.

I guess that nationalism thing got left out of my genes.
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:26 AM
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We're in bed with some sketchy people, we're spying on our own citizens, and... Trump and his backers.

Anyone not particularly proud to be an American? Anyone ashamed? How long have you felt that way?
No, not ashamed at all. Possibly different from me as my family immigrated here when I was a baby. I am proud of some of the accomplishments of the US throughout it's history and am happy to be an American citizen. I'm disappointed in many things about the US, both historical and today, but I think the US is constantly changing...sometimes for the good, sometimes not, but always in motion. It gives me hope that change will happen down the road. Our political system has always been weird and more than slightly dysfunctional, but I like the great pendulum imagery...things more one way then they start to move the other, reach a center position before going back off the rails for a while in the other direction...but always swinging back through the center eventually. And that center is constantly in flux in the US...what is center today wasn't 50 years ago, nor will it be 50 years from now.

I want to see this country do great things...finally fix it's seemingly endless issue with race, especially with our black population. I think if we can ever fix that it will be a huge step forward for the nation. I want the US to push the envelop on technology and to take a leadership role in human exploration of the solar system with another step forward...a large manned mission to Mars, a lunar base similar to the one we have on Antarctica and proof of concept for in situ resource gathering and perhaps resource exploitation of NEO to start with. So many things I'd like to see us do...and stop doing. But no, not ashamed.
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:31 AM
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We're in bed with some sketchy people, we're spying on our own citizens, and... Trump and his backers.
I didn't do any of that stuff. Why should I be ashamed?
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:46 AM
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You're just being narcissistic, which is ironically a very American attitude to have - you should be ashamed The US is a major power and unfortunately major powers tend to want to stick their nose in all sorts of places which leads to all sorts of nastiness. Our news cycle tends to blow things out of proportion too. When really has the US ever been the 'shining beacon on the hill' that it purports to be? Or for that matter, why not pick any country and tell me how clean its hands are? As is typical though, Americans aren't actually aware of what's really happening anywhere else and there's a great deal of Europhilia among the left that makes it so that we lionize western Europe without actually asking whether we should. There really aren't any paradises on earth, unfortunately, just different shades and degrees of nastiness.

So, should we be ashamed? I don't think so. Should we try to do better? Definitely. This administration is probably going to go down in history as one of the worst in the last 100 years, but that also means that we've had 96 years where we were better and really, this administration -though horrible- isn't as bad as we want to make it out to be. Don't get me wrong, it's bad, but the apocalyptic rhetoric is unwarranted.
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:52 AM
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I haven't traveled abroad since Trump was elected, but if I did, I'd probably wear a shirt that says: "I didn't vote for that fucker!" in large font.
It was wonderful traveling in the Caribbean right after Obama was elected. People hugged us and talked about what a wonderful future we faced.

Travel after Trump has been an embarrassment. No talk of politics. TVs tuned to infomercials rather than news stations.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:13 AM
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This is like being ashamed of your wife because she got a bad haircut. The US has done so much for the world and humanity in general that it is crazy to be ashamed of the country because of a bad person is president. We have had worse presidents and yet managed to still be a force for good in the world.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:17 AM
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We have had worse presidents . . .
<post doorhinged>

Cite?
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:21 AM
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No, but somewhat less proud.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:32 AM
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I think the US may or may not have had worse governments as a whole - I don't know that but wouldn't be surprised either way - but there are VERY few individuals I can imagine being worse presidents if by some magic they were elected. The kind of mental disorder that Trump has, does unfortunately make a person unfit for any kind of management position due to the way they treat the people they work with. (Not that they don't end up in such jobs - certainly they do - doesn't make it OK.)
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:43 AM
Onomatopoeia Onomatopoeia is offline
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Travel after Trump has been an embarrassment.
This.

After a somewhat unpleasant altercation during a recent trip to London, a business colleague resignedly opined that it would have been better to simply lie and say we were from Canada.

Ashamed to be an American? No, but I have to tell ya, since the rise of Trump it is certainly easier to be painted with the "stupid American" moniker and hear choral assent, and no, saying "I'm just taking the piss" afterward doesn't lessen the sting.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:56 AM
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Not really. But OTOH, I don't want to have to put up with any bullshit because of it when I travel.

I'm traveling to Europe in a couple of weeks and my wife and I bought new, extra-large MOLLE backpacks. They came with velcro American flag patches. I bought a couple of Maryland flag patches to stick on them instead. We're not lying about where we're from, but I doubt many people in Portugal or Germany are going to know what that is.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:17 AM
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I've never been proud of my country - I'm not the nationalistic type. Even if the country is awesome I can't claim credit for anything awesome about it so why would I be proud? And of course that goes the other way as well: I'm not ashamed of things that people who aren't me do. Why should I be?
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:18 AM
Profound Gibberish Profound Gibberish is offline
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Take a step back to December 6, 1941. The American South was full-tilt Jim Crow segregation, Hispanics ostracized across the country. Black towns had been pillaged and burned by whites even outside of the South. Eugenics "scientifically" told everyone that if you aren't white you aren't right. Poll taxes and poll tests kept the non-whites from voting. All of this resting on a foundation of willful genocide of Native Americans. America was headed toward an officially racially segregated country on 12/6/41. America only became a nation espousing liberty because of the power vacuum after World War 2 and the horrors that unbridled hate exposed. Ultimately, we are a deeply racist and xenophobic country at heart and constantly lie to ourselves that we are not. The memories of WW2 have faded from our gnats-length memory but the hatred and resentment of non-whites by whites remains. A new generation of people will ultimately learn what a government run by hate and fear will bring.

Last edited by Profound Gibberish; 07-13-2018 at 11:19 AM. Reason: punctuation
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:46 AM
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I do regret the decision to immigrate to the US and become a citizen. This is not the country I thought it was.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:05 PM
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Count me as another who doesn't understand being "proud" of my country.

Whatever positive things it has brought to the world, I had nothing to do with them.

Also not proud of my local sports teams, my high school, or the fact that Harry Truman lived down the road. Accidents of birth or coincidences of circumstance are nothing to be proud of.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:32 PM
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Take a step back to December 6, 1941. The American South was full-tilt Jim Crow segregation, Hispanics ostracized across the country. Black towns had been pillaged and burned by whites even outside of the South. Eugenics "scientifically" told everyone that if you aren't white you aren't right. Poll taxes and poll tests kept the non-whites from voting. All of this resting on a foundation of willful genocide of Native Americans. America was headed toward an officially racially segregated country on 12/6/41. America only became a nation espousing liberty because of the power vacuum after World War 2 and the horrors that unbridled hate exposed. Ultimately, we are a deeply racist and xenophobic country at heart and constantly lie to ourselves that we are not. The memories of WW2 have faded from our gnats-length memory but the hatred and resentment of non-whites by whites remains. A new generation of people will ultimately learn what a government run by hate and fear will bring.
No, the Civil Rights movement came out of returning African-American GIs who were treated with a measure of dignity and as heroes in the European theater, but came home to segregation. You combine that with rising education levels due to the GI bill but limited economic opportunities after graduation and it lit a powder keg. The Civil Rights movement wasn't 'Look what Hitler did, we can't allow ourselves to go down that path.' It was 'I shot more Germans than I can count, I almost got my head blown off for the privilege, the freaking French and British gave me wine, songs and kisses and I come back here and can't ride in a train next to a white dude. I also have a four-year degree and I have to get a job at a soda fountain, while Hillbilly McGee who dropped out of 8th grade gets a good factory job? That's all kinds of messed up.'
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:44 PM
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The U.S. has done many things that we should not be proud of, like the war in Vietnam, or allowing slavery and Jim Crow.

But there is a lot to feel good about too, imho. Scientific advancements, defeating Fascism, creating jazz, ALF....

And, in as much as I vote, pay taxes, speak out on issues, and volunteer, I think that success has just a little to do with me.

I am not a fan of Mr Trump, but he'll be gone in a few years. Taking a big picture view, he doesn't change much.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:46 PM
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<post doorhinged>

Cite?
You know Wilson was pretty fucking racist for his time which was a really racist time. He managed to some good despite this. For his day Wilson was not as bad a s Trump for these days but directly compared without the filter of time period, he was a bigger racist.



Nixon was a slimy paranoid crooked man that passed somehow did a lot of good things.

National Environmental Policy Act

established the Environmental Protection Agency,

Clean Air Act of 1970

Clean Water Act

Endangered Species Act of 1973
established the Office of Minority Business Enterprise
extension of the Voting Rights Act of 1965
Strategic Arms Limitation Agreement (SALT I)
1972 Nixon visit to China
Now I'm not sure who is a worse person Trump or Nixon, but I would actually rather have Nixon in office.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:46 PM
Thudlow Boink Thudlow Boink is offline
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I'm not at all ashamed to be an American.

I am ashamed of some of my fellow Americans, and, to some extent, of America itself.
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:04 PM
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Now I'm not sure who is a worse person Trump or Nixon, but I would actually rather have Nixon in office.
IMHO, Nixon's moldering remains would make a better president, so I guess we're in agreement there.
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:30 PM
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ashamed to be an American.
...where at least you know you're free....
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:34 PM
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We're in bed with some sketchy people, we're spying on our own citizens, and... Trump and his backers.

Anyone not particularly proud to be an American? Anyone ashamed? How long have you felt that way?
I'm proud to be an American. Administrations come and go. Adminstrations =/= America.

I'm not one to talk about politics to real life life people. Nothing's changed.
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:45 PM
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I am German. A lot of repugnant things have been done by Germans and in the name of Germany, and yet I do not feel ashamed, because I am not responsible for these things. Neither do I see any reason to feel proud about the achievements Germans have made in science, sports or the arts, because - sadly - I am not responsible for those either.

So when you disagree with the policies of the current US government, the only valid reason to be ashamed (in my humble opinion) would be that you somehow have supported it or have failed to do something that you could have done to prevent it.

Oh - and to you travelers. If I meet Americans who have taken it upon themselves to venture beyond the borders of God's own country, it is not my first assumption that they belong to it's pro-Trump half.
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Old 07-13-2018, 02:00 PM
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No.
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Old 07-13-2018, 03:43 PM
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I'm not ashamed of being American, sure our problems get a lot of discussion but there plenty of worse places in the world. And at least we are free to discuss and criticize those problems ad nauseam.

And I don't know why Americans in general should be ashamed, more than half (of those who voted) didn't vote for Trump, and the majority have nothing to do with federal government or it's decisions at all. Same reason I'm not upset with your average Russian, Iranian, or North Korean.
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Old 07-13-2018, 03:56 PM
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In about two weeks, I'm going to Europe. It's my first trip across the ocean, and it's something I've wanted to do all my life.

I really wish I'd done it back when Obama was President. I'm not really looking forward to being an American over there, right now.
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Old 07-13-2018, 04:07 PM
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But I do strongly hope that there's a long, hard thunk after Trump gets out of office for how things need to change to make sure that we don't end up here again.
I'd like to believe that. But I was hoping the same thing would happen after Bush got out of office. And all that happened was the Republicans looked for somebody worse to vote for.
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Old 07-13-2018, 04:12 PM
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I'm not ashamed, but I am bitterly disappointed with many of my fellow countrymen.
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Old 07-13-2018, 04:34 PM
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I’m ashamed. Our country is evil. I can’t even try to defend it anymore.
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Old 07-13-2018, 07:11 PM
Eva Luna Eva Luna is offline
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Yep. We're going to London in the fall, and I suggested that I could wear a burqa to keep people from noticing we're Americans. Husband threatened to wear a MAGA hat.
A year and a half ago (Feb. 2016) Tom Scud and I went to Mexico on vacation. At the gate in Chicago, there was a blonde woman wearing a MAGA T-shirt. On a flight to Cancun. I was embarrassed on her behalf. I was posting about it on Facebook and friends were suggesting that I should record her interaction with Mexican immigration on arrival.

I probably should have, but at that moment part of me was worried that Tom Scud, who was born in Lebanon, would have a hard time getting back into the country. (The was right after the initial implementation of Travel Ban 1.0.)

I spend enough time and energy trying to help mitigate the effects of boneheaded American policies on actual human beings that I don't feel embarrassed to be American, but I sure do wish more policymakers in the current administration would pull their heads out of their asses and, you know, think about the long term, or even next week.
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Old 07-14-2018, 06:22 AM
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Not ashamed, no. Our country has a bad leader, but that doesn't make her, or us, bad by association. We've also been through much darker periods. A time not too long ago when slavery was legal, accepted and even encouraged; a time not too long ago when Black Americans were assaulted with fire hoses and a good chunk of the public supported it. Trump to me is not even the worst (Jackson anyone?). Trump holds a lower approval rating in his second year than any other President before him. Last I checked only 39% of the public approves of his job. That means over 60% of our people do not support him. The majority of our nation are good people who do not hate and who simply want to live. And even with the checkered spots in our nation's past, and even with the dubious present, we also have much to be proud of in our past, and we'll have more to be proud of in our future. I focus on the good, not the bad.
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Old 07-14-2018, 06:35 AM
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You know Wilson was pretty fucking racist for his time which was a really racist time. He managed to some good despite this. For his day Wilson was not as bad a s Trump for these days but directly compared without the filter of time period, he was a bigger racist.



Nixon was a slimy paranoid crooked man that passed somehow did a lot of good things.

National Environmental Policy Act

established the Environmental Protection Agency,

Clean Air Act of 1970

Clean Water Act

Endangered Species Act of 1973
established the Office of Minority Business Enterprise
extension of the Voting Rights Act of 1965
Strategic Arms Limitation Agreement (SALT I)
1972 Nixon visit to China
Now I'm not sure who is a worse person Trump or Nixon, but I would actually rather have Nixon in office.
Nixon was a highly intelligent man who was a victim of psychological complexes which handicapped him from being a great leader, and those complexes were brought to the fore by being President during a very tortured, dark and divided time. Nixon didn't create many of these divisions; he inherited them. While he left the Presidency in disgrace and helped deepen a lack of trust in our officials, the country was a cleaner, less divided place in 1974 than it had been in 1969. He was a man who was subject to the bigotry of his times and yet I do not believe he made that private bigotry a part of domestic policy. Nixon was a man who watched his mother suffer taking care of his dying brothers because they lacked health insurance and believed in and advocated for a more left wing form of universal healthcare than we have even now. Trump advocates for the dissolution of "Obamacare" regardless of how many millions that would kill simply to rob his predecessor of his legacy.

Trump is a dumb man who relishes in being dumb; who is proud of being ignorant. He is the "Ugly American" stereotype made flesh. He came into office during a relatively okay time in this country and did his best to deepen existing divisions as well as create all new ones. He emboldened the bigoted and the racist members of our society to come out into the light and has helped to semi-normalize neo-Nazism. Nixon damaged the Presidency, which honestly was in need of a check on its growing power. More than the Presidency he damaged his own legacy. Trump has damaged, perhaps irreparably, America's reputation, our prestige, and is tossing away our hard won soft power and influence. He literally promotes the idea of locking children in camps simply because they are Mexican.

Nixon was a flawed man. Trump is evil.

Last edited by Kennedy1960; 07-14-2018 at 06:37 AM.
  #41  
Old 07-14-2018, 07:36 AM
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We're in bed with some sketchy people, we're spying on our own citizens, and... Trump and his backers.

Anyone not particularly proud to be an American? Anyone ashamed? How long have you felt that way?
This question is an error. White folks are incapable of feeling shame because white folks worship at the altar of individualism. White folk rapidly flip-flop between "We are individuals, you will not look at us as a group" to "You are apart of the minority group, we will look at you as individuals". That in itself is the power of whiteness that muddies the water and keeps the status quo. James Baldwin spoke about this in his piece Letter from a Region in my Mind (1962).

Last edited by Huey Freeman; 07-14-2018 at 07:37 AM.
  #42  
Old 07-14-2018, 07:40 AM
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I'm traveling to Europe in a couple of weeks and my wife and I bought new, extra-large MOLLE backpacks. They came with velcro American flag patches. I bought a couple of Maryland flag patches to stick on them instead. We're not lying about where we're from, but I doubt many people in Portugal or Germany are going to know what that is.
The Maryland flag? They're all going to assume it's European but wonder which duchy it is.
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Old 07-14-2018, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by What Exit? View Post
You know Wilson was pretty fucking racist for his time which was a really racist time. He managed to some good despite this. For his day Wilson was not as bad a s Trump for these days but directly compared without the filter of time period, he was a bigger racist.
Wilson was an intellectual who was widely admired as a progressive and as a peace-maker. Historians rank him #8 overall among all U.S. Presidents and near the very top for imagination and intelligence. He may have been very racist, but many of the Founding Fathers were slave-owners. FDR incarcerated Japanese but not Germans. Times change.

Donald Trump is a sociopathic criminal and buffoon. To compare him with Wilson is a severe insult, not only to Wilson but to all Americans with brains.

Who said Trump was racist, anyway? Trump is just a generic asshole who knows that racism appeals to the 38% of most hateful Americans who constitute his electoral base.
  #44  
Old 07-14-2018, 08:13 AM
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Huey Freeman Huey Freeman is offline
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Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
This question is an error. White folks are incapable of feeling shame because white folks worship at the altar of individualism. White folk rapidly flip-flop between "We are individuals, you will not look at us as a group" to "You are apart of the minority group, we will look at you as individuals". That in itself is the power of whiteness that muddies the water and keeps the status quo. James Baldwin spoke about this in his piece Letter from a Region in my Mind (1962).


That should read.

White folk rapidly flip-flop between "We are individuals, you will not look at us as a group" to "You are apart of the minority group, we will not look at you as individuals
  #45  
Old 07-14-2018, 08:24 AM
eenerms eenerms is offline
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We travel a lot, never ashamed and I refuse to engage when my Belgian cousins poke at me about American politics.
  #46  
Old 07-14-2018, 08:26 AM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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I'm too terrified to bother with shame.
  #47  
Old 07-14-2018, 10:04 AM
Kennedy1960 Kennedy1960 is offline
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Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
This question is an error. White folks are incapable of feeling shame because white folks worship at the altar of individualism. White folk rapidly flip-flop between "We are individuals, you will not look at us as a group" to "You are apart of the minority group, we will look at you as individuals". That in itself is the power of whiteness that muddies the water and keeps the status quo. James Baldwin spoke about this in his piece Letter from a Region in my Mind (1962).
Wouldn't you say making a sweeping generalization about an entire race, and claiming an entire race of people is incapable of feeling shame (and thus is morally defective) is a bigoted line of thought?

Last edited by Kennedy1960; 07-14-2018 at 10:05 AM.
  #48  
Old 07-14-2018, 10:32 AM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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I'd like to believe that. But I was hoping the same thing would happen after Bush got out of office. And all that happened was the Republicans looked for somebody worse to vote for.
Curious, if Trump is the worse option to Bush, who would be the worse option for Trump? David Duke?
  #49  
Old 07-14-2018, 10:35 AM
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Wouldn't you say making a sweeping generalization about an entire race, and claiming an entire race of people is incapable of feeling shame (and thus is morally defective) is a bigoted line of thought?
Not all whites, just American whites. The British Europeans - the more enlightened version of yourselves - proclaimed today about Trump "You insult our country, attack our NHS, embarrass our Queen, undermine our ‘special relationship’, humiliate our PM...and then smugly pose in Winston Churchill’s armchair". The white folks in Britain are in the street. Yes, white folks in the street. Can you believe it?These white folks ain't havin' it, and see right through the bullshit. It must be like having a country filled with 66 million Bill Mahers and John Olivers. I envy Europe now more than ever; I see why Baldwin (and many other African-Americans) fled there soon as they had the means to do so.

Last edited by Huey Freeman; 07-14-2018 at 10:40 AM.
  #50  
Old 07-14-2018, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
Not all whites, just American whites. The British Europeans - the more enlightened version of yourselves - proclaimed today about Trump "You insult our country, attack our NHS, embarrass our Queen, undermine our ‘special relationship’, humiliate our PM...and then smugly pose in Winston Churchill’s armchair". The white folks in Britain are in the street. Yes, white folks in the street. Can you believe it?These white folks ain't havin' it, and see right through the bullshit. It must be like having a country filled with 66 million Bill Mahers and John Olivers. I envy Europe now more than ever; I see why Baldwin (and many other African-Americans) fled there soon as they had the means to do so.
I love these British white folk.

Quote:
Labour’s Stephen Doughty said: “An image of Donald Trump sitting in Churchill’s seat will stick in the throats of many Brits who would consider Trump not only to be one of the worst presidents in US history but also not even worthy of a comparison with our wartime leader who rescued our nation in its darkest hour.”

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Labour’s Ruth Smeeth added: “Churchill embodied the best of British spiritvwhen we were fighting and defeating racists and fascists during World War Two.
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