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Old 07-15-2018, 07:41 AM
survinga survinga is offline
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How much has the Republican party changed?...

I used to be a Republican up until 2016, although I was increasingly bothered by what I saw within the party since Obama was elected.

If you look back over modern history, we had Eisenhower, who implemented the interstate highway system. We had Nixon, who created the EPA. We had Republicans in congress who helped bring about Medicaid & Medicare with LBJ. We had Reagan, who cut taxes, but also raised taxes, and who cut a deal on immigration in the late 80's. We had George HW Bush, who signed the Americans with Disabilities Act, and who raised taxes. George W Bush added Medicare Part D, which has been largely a successful program. Mitt Romney implemented the Massachusetts version of the ACA back in 2006.

And throughout all of those years, the Republicans were a strong military-supporting party. Anti-communism was the glue through the HW administration. We were more sensible than Democrats on budget issues, at least prior to Reagan. And in war issues, prior to George W Bush, we were more cautious in the wars we entered, how we got in and got out. We were generally pro-trade, and pro-alliances. There was a time when the Republican party was a party that was willing to govern, and was constructive at the home front and overseas. We generally supported a less intrusive government than Democrats, and we were willing to cut deals on various issues. There was a two-party system, and they accepted the legitimacy of the compromises that had to be made.

But what do Republicans stand for now? It's the pro-tariff, anti-immigration, anti-alliance, and no-tax party. Trade wars with no end game. Deficits surging again, even during growth times. Children separated from their moms, interned in camps on the border. Praise of Putin, and attacks on our allies. They purposely appoint people to run agencies that are opposed to the existence of the agency. This party is sick, and in its current form, is a Cancer on American politics.
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Old 07-15-2018, 08:08 AM
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I'm not going to argue against the op too much but of course taking that from Eisenhower on scope it has changed over the years, as has the Democratic party. Personally I think the latter has changed for the better and the former for the worse but they have both changed.

My read as someone less than a political historian goes to Nixon's southern strategy in which white rural southerners concerned about the threat of civil rights and secular (egghead) thought to their status quo and became a key part of GOP power. For a while those in the older school GOP were able to play to them but still have room for others in the tent and still had the ability to compromise to get shit done. The rise of the Tea Party broke that ability and Trump doesn't bother with the pretense of doing anything other than playing to those impulses all in. Those with more of what you thought of as traditional GOP interests still want those things done to some degree but they each have the one thing (pick -low taxes, less regulation, an SC that will rule for the interests of the rich and powerful ...) they want and accept everything else horrific as the acceptable price of maybe getting it.

It did not just happen overnight.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:10 AM
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I'm not going to argue against the op too much but of course taking that from Eisenhower on scope it has changed over the years, as has the Democratic party. Personally I think the latter has changed for the better and the former for the worse but they have both changed.

My read as someone less than a political historian goes to Nixon's southern strategy in which white rural southerners concerned about the threat of civil rights and secular (egghead) thought to their status quo and became a key part of GOP power. For a while those in the older school GOP were able to play to them but still have room for others in the tent and still had the ability to compromise to get shit done. The rise of the Tea Party broke that ability and Trump doesn't bother with the pretense of doing anything other than playing to those impulses all in. Those with more of what you thought of as traditional GOP interests still want those things done to some degree but they each have the one thing (pick -low taxes, less regulation, an SC that will rule for the interests of the rich and powerful ...) they want and accept everything else horrific as the acceptable price of maybe getting it.

It did not just happen overnight.
I agree it didn't happen overnight. Some of the seeds for the craziness were planted back during the Nixon and Reagan eras.

But I think the great recession, followed by the election of Obama, is what finally pushed this party over the edge. There were always enough adults in the party to keep things from going absolutely crazy. But by 2009, you could see a big shift in the rhetoric, as well as their ability to be constructive in any sense. I voted for Romney in 2012. But even by then, it was clear that things were going off the rails somewhat.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:48 AM
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That's when those who were for the pretense and more interested in things like tax policy and maybe the neocon perspective, and willing to compromise to with the Ds to get stuff done, were relegated to the back seat, really after McCain invited those of no pretense into the front seats with Palin. But they had already become outnumbered in the car, had already lost control of the radio dial, and were already being told where to turn by the rest. Those in the car really haven't changed so much, they've just gotten round to renaming it the General Lee.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:18 AM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is online now
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... the threat of civil rights ...
These apparently-casual few words say a lot.

Viewing anybody's civil rights as a threat is a disturbingly short-sighted and greedy point of view.

I'm not convinced that short-sighted greed doesn't explain the entire list of differences mentioned so far - but I think the changes brought by Trump may have continued that while adding spite, and self-conscious vandalism of institutions and rights.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:31 AM
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...But they had already become outnumbered in the car, had already lost control of the radio dial, and were already being told where to turn by the rest. Those in the car really haven't changed so much, they've just gotten round to renaming it the General Lee.


Re. the car analogy: Palin may have started calling it the General Lee, but Trump has poisoned Boss Hogg and Sheriff Coltrane, and decided it's time to drive down to the border. Bo and Luke have been tied up and gagged in the back seat ever since they said they were joking around and didn't REALLY want to go shoot a bunch of Mexicans.
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:12 AM
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The Southern Strategy switched which party was stuck with the rural vote. It used to be that the media, most lawyers, etc. were majority Republican because it was the party of the folk and so, by extension, those who were more well educated and more used, in daily life, to having to deal with investigation, debate, scientific processes, etc. because it would have been some aspect of their job (for a larger percentage of the people).

It really makes more sense to compare Trump to, say, Woodrow Wilson or FDR than Eisenhower, because they were voted in by the South.

But, I believe, the big change in tone of politics overall wasn't the switch around between the two parties, it was switching from vota voce in Congress to public, tallied votes. Before, they simply too a count of hands. After 1970, they started to tabulate and publish the specific vote of each individual Congressman. That had allowed for voting fraud to take over Congress, allowing the party heads and your political base to more easily coerce their politicians to vote with the party because they can keep easily keep track of your record, and it always vote buying by campaign donors and lobbyists, because they can confirm whether you did or did not vote as you were paid too.

In end result, politicians are hamstrung against following expert advice and compromise positions, and instead have to vote with the mob or at their donor's bidding. People with too many scruples can't last in the game.
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Old 07-15-2018, 12:30 PM
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In the past, the D/R split followed various lines: rural vs urban, South vs North, labor vs management, and so on. There was enough diversity of opinion in these general groups that both parties tended to be "big tent" parties: there were liberal R's and conservative D's; the diversity of opinion within parties meant that communication was possible between parties.

Rich individuals and corporations tried to influence politics and may have even plotted a military coup in 1934, but the power of parties (and unions) and the free press provided power for the people and democracy survived. Anyway, some of the coup plotters may have been motivated by legitimate (though incorrect) economc beliefs.

The modern world is completely different. Instead of smoke-filled room of wise old men, the Party gives its nod to whoever offers the best hors d'oeuvres and cutest cheerleaders in Iowa and New Hampshire. (Or whoever gets the best news coverage due to bloviations and tales of sexual derring-do.) Newspapers are dead: Facebook delivers news to Americans based on whether they clicked 'Like' last time a "Hillary is a witch" post was shared. And, despite some principled and good-spirited billionaires (Gates, Soros, Buffett) who want to improve the world, most billionaires and corporations are motivated by pure short-term greed.

The greedy few, to win in a system where the lower-income masses have electoral power, now strive to dominate the GOP. (Recall 2016 when the plan was for the Koch bothers to "anoint" a candidate.) GOP leaders told big lies and fomented hatred, then bigger lies and more hatred. Gullibility became the major criterion for party selection and, in a vicious cycle since GOP sheep were gullible or attracted by hatred, the GOP leaders spread still more lies and more hatred.

I'm sure there are still many conservative Americans who aren't attracted by lies and hatred but have voted R for decades and continue to vote R out of habit. Let's hope that these salvageable R's wake up soon.
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Old 07-15-2018, 02:17 PM
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You can't argue with success. The Republicans aided by Trump have succeeded beyond all measure. Just off the top of my head, They: control the house, senate, supreme court, presidency, the majority of state houses, and governors. They: have implemented massive tax cuts for the rich, neutered what is left of unions, gutted the voting rights act, have unrestricted corporate donations to campaigns, re-districted and gerrymandered states beyond all recognition and are on the verged of overturning Roe. Once the new court is set and if Trump gets one more they will over turn not only abortion rights but gay marriage, contraception, interracial marriage, think it can't happen? We are in freefall to a kind or religious corporate fascism.
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Old 07-15-2018, 02:23 PM
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I blame Karl Rove. There were plenty of people before him who paved the way but he really made is acceptable in the party.
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Old 07-15-2018, 02:35 PM
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I can't see that the party has changed at all except that it is actually doing some things it promised to do. All through my lifetime, the Republican Party has professed to be one of smaller government, lower taxes, lower spending, enforcing the borders, giving states more power, eliminating the Dept of Education/Commerce/HUD, and being a partner in Israel.

However for years, we never delivered. As you mentioned, Reagan and Bush raised taxes after promising not to. Reagan made the amnesty deal which did not work, and "returned power" to the states by forcing the 21 year old drinking age and retaining the 55mph speed limit. He appointed two Justices to the Supreme Court who voted to uphold Roe. Bush I one.

We were going to eliminate these federal departments when Clinton was President, knowing he would veto them, but when we get the Congress and the Presidency, not only do we not eliminate them, we strength federal control over education with NCLB. As you mentioned, instead of lowering entitlement spending, we created an entire new one with Medicare Part D.

At no time did these politicians disclaim that the border should be secure, that the capital of Israel is Jerusalem, or that free trade means no tariffs on both ends. Trump comes along, says these things, and horror of all horrors, he actually does something about them. People lost their mind when Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem, even though that has been U.S. law since 1995, supported by Clinton, Bush II, and Obama.

After thirty years of platitudes about strong border security, Trump is taking action. We may not agree with particular types of action, but he's doing what he said he would.

Same way with free trade. Almost everyone is for free trade. But when Trump points out that we chargie a 2.5% duty on cars from the EU and they charge 10% on ours, then who exactly is not following the principles of free trade? He's making the point that Democratic union workers in the rust belt have been making for years: We have no problem with free trade; we will compete with anyone in the world, but not if we are getting screwed and not being given a level playing field.

So, I guess I'll ask the OP, since you were a Republican prior to 2016/2009, did you simply support the rhetoric and also the non-action?
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Old 07-15-2018, 02:36 PM
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...

In end result, politicians are hamstrung against following expert advice and compromise positions, and instead have to vote with the mob or at their donor's bidding. People with too many scruples can't last in the game.
Politicians have always been unscrupulous, back to ancient times - that's not news. Politicians have always been targets for manipulation - nothing new there either.

Trump is a different politician only because of his overt undisguised celebration of disregard for the law, cruelty, and arrogance for their own sake, almost as art forms - but he's not the main problem for the Republican party, they can just replace him.

The main problem is the voters who voted for him anyway. Especially the ones who did so reluctantly or as a second or third choice. These are a huge swath of Americans who are OK with massive-scale disregard for the law, cruelty and arrogance, as long as their greed is satisfied, and as long as the targets of the cruelty and broken laws are somebody they don't like.

Oh, for the days when politicians were merely unscrupulous, merely targets for attempted manipulation. And for the days when American voters voted in their own interests but not at the price of gross injustice and mass cruelty.
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Old 07-15-2018, 03:11 PM
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You can't argue with success. The Republicans aided by Trump have succeeded beyond all measure. Just off the top of my head, They: control the house, senate, supreme court, presidency, the majority of state houses, and governors. They: have implemented massive tax cuts for the rich, neutered what is left of unions, gutted the voting rights act, have unrestricted corporate donations to campaigns, re-districted and gerrymandered states beyond all recognition and are on the verged of overturning Roe. Once the new court is set and if Trump gets one more they will over turn not only abortion rights but gay marriage, contraception, interracial marriage, think it can't happen? We are in freefall to a kind or religious corporate fascism.
What happened is that Dems fell asleep at the wheel. After the 2006 and 2008 elections, they were on the ascendancy, and thought they had more or less permanent majorities. While they were congratulating themselves, Republicans went to work on re-districting, honing their anti-Obama message, and really caught the Dems off-guard.

That's why Pubs are in charge at all levels of government right now. I think 2016 finally woke up the Dems.
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Old 07-15-2018, 03:51 PM
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... Republicans went to work on re-districting...
Polite to the point of euphemism. Republicans got 49.1% of the House vote, and secured 241 seats, Dems, 48% for 194. Which would make sense if one percent of 535 was forty. Isn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...lections,_2016
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Old 07-15-2018, 06:15 PM
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People have been saying stuff like this for at least 40 years. Reagan was a trigger happy nuclear cowboy who couldn't tell the difference between reality and the movies. Bush was a out of touch plutocrat whose family had Nazi ties. GWB was an evil oil man causing wars to enrich his cronies. McCain was a war monger who had become psychologically unhinged. Romney was a bully who enjoyed shutting down factories and letting people die. Trump is a white supremacist who is controlled by Putin.
Republicans are always demonized by the left and then as soon as they are safely out of the way they become the reasonable people who are totally unlike today's group of extremists who are trying to ruin the world.
Republicans have always stood for low taxes and smaller government and have succeeded with the low taxes and not the smaller government because that is the popular part of the agenda. Trade is the only issue there has been a big change on and both parties have changed.
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Old 07-15-2018, 08:39 PM
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People have been saying stuff like this for at least 40 years. Reagan was a trigger happy nuclear cowboy who couldn't tell the difference between reality and the movies. Bush was a out of touch plutocrat whose family had Nazi ties. GWB was an evil oil man causing wars to enrich his cronies. McCain was a war monger who had become psychologically unhinged. Romney was a bully who enjoyed shutting down factories and letting people die. Trump is a white supremacist who is controlled by Putin.
Republicans are always demonized by the left and then as soon as they are safely out of the way they become the reasonable people who are totally unlike today's group of extremists who are trying to ruin the world.
Republicans have always stood for low taxes and smaller government and have succeeded with the low taxes and not the smaller government because that is the popular part of the agenda. Trade is the only issue there has been a big change on and both parties have changed.
Yeah, I used to be bothered by those labels for people like HW Bush and Reagan. But Trump deserves whatever label he gets. I'd call him a con-artist above all else. Demagogue also fits. The media was truly unfair to some previous Republican presidents. But not this one.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:50 PM
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Politicians have always been unscrupulous, back to ancient times - that's not news. Politicians have always been targets for manipulation - nothing new there either.
Data:

https://xkcd.com/1431/
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:53 PM
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Republicans have stopped pretending they aren't racists. You don't hear much about their being the party of Family Values much any more, they've ceased that mummer's farce as well. With McConnell in power, Republicans have embraced the notion of prerogative rather than normative government. They've stopped pretending to be about effective government and shown themselves to be all money and power; power to squeeze money out of you and into their coffers and those of their friends, power to kick the poor and the unhealthy to the curb seemingly out of nothing other than spite, power to implement their white supremacist agenda, wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:45 PM
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You can't argue with success. The Republicans aided by Trump have succeeded beyond all measure. Just off the top of my head, They: control the house, senate, supreme court, presidency, the majority of state houses, and governors. They: have implemented massive tax cuts for the rich, neutered what is left of unions, gutted the voting rights act, have unrestricted corporate donations to campaigns, re-districted and gerrymandered states beyond all recognition and are on the verged of overturning Roe. Once the new court is set and if Trump gets one more they will over turn not only abortion rights but gay marriage, contraception, interracial marriage, think it can't happen? We are in freefall to a kind or religious corporate fascism.
Trump is not legitimately religious. He would eliminate Christianity from America in a nanosecond, if it looked like his advantage to do so.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:49 AM
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Yeah, I used to be bothered by those labels for people like HW Bush and Reagan. But Trump deserves whatever label he gets. I'd call him a con-artist above all else. Demagogue also fits. The media was truly unfair to some previous Republican presidents. But not this one.
Ok, so notwithstanding what you said in the OP, the whole thing boils down to you don't like Trump. I don't necessarily like him either, but you cannot point to a single policy of his that is not "Republican."
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Old 07-16-2018, 12:14 PM
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Ok, so notwithstanding what you said in the OP, the whole thing boils down to you don't like Trump. I don't necessarily like him either, but you cannot point to a single policy of his that is not "Republican."
Come on- do you think it's a Republican policy to be deferential to every dictator on the planet? How long have trade wars and tariffs been Republican policy?
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Old 07-16-2018, 12:24 PM
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Single biggest change in the parties was the Republicans winning the Dixiecrats away from the Democrats. In doing this Reagan planted the seeds that led to current Republican party.
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:03 PM
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Yeah, I used to be bothered by those labels for people like HW Bush and Reagan. But Trump deserves whatever label he gets. I'd call him a con-artist above all else. Demagogue also fits. The media was truly unfair to some previous Republican presidents. But not this one.
So when Reagan was called trigger happy, that was too much. Bush 41 was out of touch and in bed with Nazis, that was too much. Bush 43 was an actual Nazi warmonger, that was too much. But Trump, well now everything is different, of course he's a racist, every one that is a racist supports trump, his supporters are stupid, hate America, and revel in the suffering of others. Yeah, that's totally reasonable!
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:06 PM
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So when Reagan was called trigger happy....
So, how is that Grenada Memorial coming along?
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:16 PM
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So when Reagan was called trigger happy, that was too much. Bush 41 was out of touch and in bed with Nazis, that was too much. Bush 43 was an actual Nazi warmonger, that was too much. But Trump, well now everything is different, of course he's a racist, every one that is a racist supports trump, his supporters are stupid, hate America, and revel in the suffering of others. Yeah, that's totally reasonable!
This would appear to excuse Trump from literally any harsh criticism. That doesn't seem reasonable to me. Do you really think that Trump has never said or done anything publicly that can reasonable be characterized as racist?
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:23 PM
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Come on- do you think it's a Republican policy to be deferential to every dictator on the planet? How long have trade wars and tariffs been Republican policy?
I was going to preface my remarks with "to be fair" but I don't really feel like being fair these days.

But nonetheless I must remark that foreign policy, trade policy, and national security are the issues where there is the most similarity between the parties. Not all politicians agree but there are examples of people from both parties on many sides of the issues at least in the past 15 years.
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:30 PM
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Maybe it was the Fifties, you know, I Led Three Lives, Herbert Desanex, FBI, infiltrating the Communist Party USA. Used to be a joke among Commies, that the best way to tell if someone was an FBI agent was whether or not they paid their Party dues, in full and on time.

So, maybe that's when the FBI began to shift to the radical lefty org it is today? Those FBI guys listening to Communist stuff and thinking "You know, the 'dictatorship of the proletariat led by the revolutionary cadres', that kinda makes sense!". From then on, it was downhill all the way.

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Old 07-16-2018, 01:40 PM
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This would appear to excuse Trump from literally any harsh criticism. That doesn't seem reasonable to me. Do you really think that Trump has never said or done anything publicly that can reasonable be characterized as racist?
It's meant to highlight three things:

First, this is accurate:
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
...Republicans are always demonized by the left and then as soon as they are safely out of the way they become the reasonable people who are totally unlike today's group of extremists who are trying to ruin the world. ...
Second, to illustrate exactly this point, there's this where it's not quite clear if Poe's law is in place: (my bold)
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Yeah, I used to be bothered by those labels for people like HW Bush and Reagan. But Trump deserves whatever label he gets. I'd call him a con-artist above all else. Demagogue also fits. The media was truly unfair to some previous Republican presidents. But not this one.
And third, the absurdity of the word "reasonable" and "unfair" in this context. It can be used and defined in whatever way is desired by the user. Apparently just like the words racist, white people, and whiteness.
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:57 PM
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It's meant to highlight three things:

First, this is accurate:


Second, to illustrate exactly this point, there's this where it's not quite clear if Poe's law is in place: (my bold)

And third, the absurdity of the word "reasonable" and "unfair" in this context. It can be used and defined in whatever way is desired by the user. Apparently just like the words racist, white people, and whiteness.
This appears to be a very broad sort of whine, and doesn't actually answer my question.
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Old 07-16-2018, 02:30 PM
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We were more sensible than Democrats on budget issues, at least prior to Reagan.
Republicans have gotten away with this notion for ages and I am hard pressed to find how this meshed with reality. Certainly there were differences in budget priorities so perhaps you thought buying a tank was better than spending on welfare but that is more opinion than a definite one is better than the other.

You added the caveat that this was true till Reagan and I agree republicans completely gave up on fiscal responsibility at that point too. That was nearly 40 years ago though so the idea of conservative fiscal responsibility is a meme that needs to be thoroughly done away with.

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We generally supported a less intrusive government than Democrats...
Another one republicans like to own and another one I do not think they deserve so I'll ask. How were the democrats more intrusive than republicans?

To me the final straw noting that conservatives abandoned anything like honest discourse within their party was when Christopher Buckley was forced to resign from the National Review (the magazine his father founded). He had the temerity to criticize John McCain and declared Sarah Palin to be unfit to be vice president of the United States. For that he had to fall on his sword.
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Old 07-16-2018, 03:00 PM
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Republicans have gotten away with this notion for ages and I am hard pressed to find how this meshed with reality. Certainly there were differences in budget priorities so perhaps you thought buying a tank was better than spending on welfare but that is more opinion than a definite one is better than the other.

You added the caveat that this was true till Reagan and I agree republicans completely gave up on fiscal responsibility at that point too. That was nearly 40 years ago though so the idea of conservative fiscal responsibility is a meme that needs to be thoroughly done away with.
I agree that Republicans have not held the line on responsible spending like they should. However, most of the blame can be laid at the feet of your side because anytime we want to cut the growth of a program (not the program, but the growth) we are accused of wanting old ladies to die in the street and for poor people to eat dog food.
  #32  
Old 07-16-2018, 03:11 PM
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This appears to be a very broad sort of whine, and doesn't actually answer my question.
To expand on this, every single president has been attacked with hyperbole (as well as reasonable criticisms). It's nothing new, but it doesn't mean that harsh attacks against Trump can always reasonably be dismissed.
  #33  
Old 07-16-2018, 03:26 PM
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To expand on this, every single president has been attacked with hyperbole (as well as reasonable criticisms). It's nothing new, but it doesn't mean that harsh attacks against Trump can always reasonably be dismissed.
The hyperbole itself is the problem because it requires about another half an hour of conversation to debate the actual issue (example):

Person 1: Obama is a Muslim who wants to take away all of your guns!
Person 2: He's not a Muslim, but I'm more interested in why you believe he will take away your guns.

Person 1: Because he favors an assault weapons ban!
Person 2: So, he's not proposing to take away all of your guns, just some guns?
Person 1: It's a trick. It is just getting his foot in the door!

Person 2: What makes you think that?

At this point, person 1 might talk about how he supports registration, the Australian ban, etc. We would then jockey back and forth about how the slippery slope may or may not be accurate in this case. But the real debate is "Should we ban assault weapons?"

Likewise, calling Trump a racist or the new Hitler does nothing to get to the real question of what should be done with the children of those caught crossing illegally. The statement about Hitler just throws a bomb into the conversation and helps nobody.

Like others, and maybe it is because of my age, but the last four presidents have been to their opponents to be the Worst Ever and the Coming of the AntiChrist: Clinton, Bush II, Obama, Trump.

Prior to that, the other side would disagree with the President, but never make such inflammatory remarks as a general rule.

ETA: The vitriol increased with each one. Clinton was attacked, IMHO, unfairly harsh. Bush II moreso. Obama even more. The attacks on Trump are off the scale.

Last edited by UltraVires; 07-16-2018 at 03:27 PM.
  #34  
Old 07-16-2018, 07:18 PM
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So when Reagan was called trigger happy, that was too much. Bush 41 was out of touch and in bed with Nazis, that was too much. Bush 43 was an actual Nazi warmonger, that was too much. But Trump, well now everything is different, of course he's a racist, every one that is a racist supports trump, his supporters are stupid, hate America, and revel in the suffering of others. Yeah, that's totally reasonable!
Trump is different than prior presidents. I think that much is very clear to anyone who observes what he says and what he does. So yes, I think previous president who were Republicans were treated more harsh than they deserved. Trump has not been treated more harsh than he deserves.
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:07 PM
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So when Reagan was called trigger happy, that was too much. Bush 41 was out of touch and in bed with Nazis, that was too much. Bush 43 was an actual Nazi warmonger, that was too much. But Trump, well now everything is different, of course he's a racist, every one that is a racist supports trump, his supporters are stupid, hate America, and revel in the suffering of others. Yeah, that's totally reasonable!
There was an article about this during the 2016 election - might have been NY Times. The article pointed out that by portraying reasonable centrist moderates such as McCain and Romney as radical racist extremists, the Democratic Party cried wolf and then its verbal ammunition was useless against someone like Trump.

When you use your strongest antibiotics on moderate germs, you find antibiotic resistance by the time something really scary like MRSA comes along.
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:51 PM
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So when Reagan was called trigger happy, that was too much. Bush 41 was out of touch and in bed with Nazis, that was too much. Bush 43 was an actual Nazi warmonger, that was too much. But Trump, well now everything is different, of course he's a racist, every one that is a racist supports trump, his supporters are stupid, hate America, and revel in the suffering of others. Yeah, that's totally reasonable!
Yes?

I feel like there's supposed to be a "gotcha" here...
  #37  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:20 PM
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Yes?

I feel like there's supposed to be a "gotcha" here...
I think we are supposed to conclude that it isn't reasonable, and that because it isn't reasonable it can't possibly be true.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:20 PM
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All through my lifetime, the Republican Party has professed to be one of smaller government, lower taxes, lower spending, enforcing the borders, giving states more power, eliminating the Dept of Education/Commerce/HUD, and being a partner in Israel.

However for years, we never delivered.
BTW let me take the opportunity to note that I feel you have provided a very good presentation of what led to the eventual fall of the "conventional Republicans" inside their own party. By now people who have been promised all that their whole lives ARE in a position to demand that it happen already, and if it takes being seen as radical, or associating with someone unpleasant, so be it.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:33 PM
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Yes?

I feel like there's supposed to be a "gotcha" here...
No gotcha. It's an illustration of the idea that Republicans are always demonized, until the next target comes along who is certainly worse than the predecessors. When Bush 43 was compared to Hitler, there's not much left on the outrage meter. Whoever comes after Trump will probably be called a baby eater or some actual demon like Baal or something.

Or what Velocity said. Here was the article in the Atlantic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...d-wolf/493928/

I haven't voted for a Republican candidate for President since Dole, and Trump is awful. But as UV says, he's not pushing policy ideas that different than the party has been doing for decades. His non policy stuff, Twitter use, ego mania, etc are different. But on policy it's more of the same.

Last edited by Bone; 07-16-2018 at 10:37 PM.
  #40  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:35 PM
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No gotcha. It's an illustration of the idea that Republicans are always demonized, until the next target comes along who is certainly worse than the predecessors. When Bush 43 was compared to Hitler, there's not much left on the outrage meter. Whoever comes after Trump will probably be called a baby eater or some actual demon like Baal or something.

Or what Velocity said. Here was the article in the Atlantic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...d-wolf/493928/
It's totally unfair that Democrats are never demonized, isn't it?
  #41  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:39 PM
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You think Democratic politicians arent demonized? That's...odd.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:08 PM
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I can't see that the party has changed at all except that it is actually doing some things it promised to do.
In a sense I agree with this, although I disagree with some of the individual points as below. I'd also say much of my beef with the current republican party is all the additional stuff they're doing, and the lies.
Cutting taxes for the rich? Of course no surprise there.

Quote:
At no time did these politicians disclaim that the border should be secure, that the capital of Israel is Jerusalem, or that free trade means no tariffs on both ends.
1. "Secure borders" =/= build a wall no matter the cost and no matter whether it will be effective. It's also not the same thing as a muslim ban, picking on legal immigrants, and I don't think anyone voted for family separations either.
2. Previous politicians didn't move the Israeli embassy because it was an important bargaining chip for one, and would piss off the palestinians if was done outside the framework of any kind of deal for two.
You might say it's good Israel knows what side we're on. But was there any doubt about that? The US could have at least got something in exchange for moving the embassy.
3. Agree there should be no tariffs both ends, but it's wrong to paint this as the EU trading in bad faith and poor America having to respond.
The US also already had tariffs on many items, and we can cherry-pick plenty of examples where the US import tariff was higher than the EU's or Canada's. Overall the picture was pretty balanced, and also most developed countries had been lowering tariffs for many years. Notsomuch now.
  #43  
Old 07-17-2018, 03:41 AM
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I haven't voted for a Republican candidate for President since Dole, and Trump is awful. But as UV says, he's not pushing policy ideas that different than the party has been doing for decades. His non policy stuff, Twitter use, ego mania, etc are different. But on policy it's more of the same.
When you go before an international audience as the chief representative of the United States and tell that audience that you trust a former KGB spy over your own intelligence services, your own military, and your own law enforcement, then your non-policy stuff becomes pretty damn important. A democracy operates on the idea that people in power have the implied consent to do what they do. Trump and his party are using their platform to gain implied consent to tear down the norms and institution of democracy. And once that happens, they don't necessarily need consent to do whatever happens next.

If everyone were laughing Trump out of the room and viewed it as harmless buffoonery, that would be one thing, but the reality is that the majority political party really is collaborating with a foreign adversary to subvert the will of the people, and they are actively trying to discredit our intelligence services, military, and law enforcement in their quest to uncover this truth. Their misconduct is not something that can be easily reversed, either; it has potentially permanent consequences - consequences that are lethal to a democracy. There can be no democracy without confidence that there is the rule of law, that public services are not above the law, and that our systems of jurisprudence and justice are at least attempting to be impartial and function independent of politics, which is not to say that it does so 100% of the time, but that on balance, the systems behave in a way that supports democracy.

Last edited by asahi; 07-17-2018 at 03:41 AM.
  #44  
Old 07-17-2018, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Bone View Post
No gotcha. It's an illustration of the idea that Republicans are always demonized, until the next target comes along who is certainly worse than the predecessors. When Bush 43 was compared to Hitler, there's not much left on the outrage meter. Whoever comes after Trump will probably be called a baby eater or some actual demon like Baal or something.
So Trump's history has nothing to do with this? There's no connection between what Trump does/says and how much criticism he gets from Democrats?

I understand that there is hyperbole and partisan attacks on every president. But there are also reasonable criticisms of every president.
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:07 AM
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You think Democratic politicians arent demonized? That's...odd.
I guess the sarcasm wasn't obvious enough...for you.
  #46  
Old 07-17-2018, 06:08 AM
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So Trump's history has nothing to do with this? There's no connection between what Trump does/says and how much criticism he gets from Democrats?

I understand that there is hyperbole and partisan attacks on every president. But there are also reasonable criticisms of every president.
Exactly. Trump has earned his labels. People who can't see that he's differnt from prior Republicans aren't paying attention.
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  #47  
Old 07-17-2018, 06:15 AM
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So Trump's history has nothing to do with this? There's no connection between what Trump does/says and how much criticism he gets from Democrats?

I understand that there is hyperbole and partisan attacks on every president. But there are also reasonable criticisms of every president.
Definitely this. Throwing massive hissy fits about Obama's imaginary foreign birth cannot be compared to the honest disgust at Trump's siding with Putin over our own security services, then saying that Putin's proposal that we should question those Russian spies on his terms, in his country while he also questions our security leaders in return is a good idea.
  #48  
Old 07-17-2018, 06:21 AM
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No gotcha. It's an illustration of the idea that Republicans are always demonized, until the next target comes along who is certainly worse than the predecessors. When Bush 43 was compared to Hitler, there's not much left on the outrage meter. Whoever comes after Trump will probably be called a baby eater or some actual demon like Baal or something.

Or what Velocity said. Here was the article in the Atlantic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...d-wolf/493928/

I haven't voted for a Republican candidate for President since Dole, and Trump is awful. But as UV says, he's not pushing policy ideas that different than the party has been doing for decades. His non policy stuff, Twitter use, ego mania, etc are different. But on policy it's more of the same.
I think his policies are different from what mainstream Republicans advocated until recently. His immigration, travel-ban/border policy is different. His trade war stuff is real, and different. And even though it's in the process of playing out, I'm of the opinion that he will likely leave NATO, which is certainly a break from past Republicans. I hope I'm wrong on the last front, and I'm hopeful that he wakes up on trade. But I don't think he will.

Also, it's not been talked about much. But some of his policies on attacking the ACA have actually resulted in a higher level of government subsidy than under the previous situation. So, in some ways, his attacks on the ACA are costing tax-payers more.

He is not a typical republican wrapped up in a bad exterior. We get the bad exterior with him, and what's inside is also very bad, IMO.
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  #49  
Old 07-17-2018, 06:34 AM
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Once upon a time, the Republican party was an organization that wanted what was best for the American people.

Today, it's a neo-Nazi terrorist group that seeks to abolish democracy, impose Christian Sharia, and murder and/or enslave the majority of the population for the benefit of the aristocracy.

That's what's changed.
  #50  
Old 07-17-2018, 07:03 AM
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The biggest change I've seen in my lifetime is that Republicans stopped competing in the contest of ideas.

In the late 1970s and early 1980s, the Republicans of the Reagan era competed with Democrats on the issues. Reaganomics might have been flawed, but in the context of 40 years of the New Deal and Great Society, they could pass it off as a legitimate alternative to the existing progressive status quo. Moreover, this change enjoyed popular support.

In 2018, the Republican party passes tax cuts that only 35% of the country want, and they try to sabotage a healthcare policy that the majority of the country supports. The Republican stopped trying to win the war of ideas; they're now just trying to shove the interests of the few down the throats of everyone else.

Last edited by asahi; 07-17-2018 at 07:04 AM.
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