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Old 08-05-2018, 11:43 AM
Lizard Lizard is offline
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What separates men from boys?

Personally: Stepping up to oneís responsibilities without whining, complaining, or thinking it makes you special. Taking responsibility for your own life, and not blaming someone else for it. Protecting those who canít protect themselves. Conducting oneís personal affairs with class and dignity. Doing what has to be done, even if it hurts. Paying your own bills.

Hmm. Nothing terribly unique to men alone here! Any suggestions?
  #2  
Old 08-05-2018, 11:49 AM
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Then why not title your thread "what separates adults from children?" unless all you want is a discussion of what constitutes masculinity.
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Old 08-05-2018, 12:21 PM
kopek kopek is offline
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The cost of the toys; seriously. From hobbies to what we spend our money on that is the main difference I saw in my life. Yeah, responsibility and all that comes into play but most can be pigeonholed into one or more categories of the above.
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Old 08-05-2018, 12:27 PM
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The cost of the toys; seriously. From hobbies to what we spend our money on that is the main difference I saw in my life. Yeah, responsibility and all that comes into play but most can be pigeonholed into one or more categories of the above.
No, that's just a matter of having access to more money. Give a kid or an immature adult more money and they'll spend more on toys.

The sign of financial adulthood is when you spend your money on the things you need before you spend any money on the things you want.
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Old 08-05-2018, 12:37 PM
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The cost of the toys; seriously.
Absolutely true. Plus, of course, the ability to buy them yourself instead of begging your parents for them.

The "responsibility" meme is just code for "a more in-depth perception of the consequences of misbehaving".

And the dislike of government and the "nanny state" is of course a transference of the dislike of parental authority.

If anyone has ever wondered why they grow to a ripe old age and still have childish inclinations, there you are. One of my favorite philosophers, disguised as a humorist named Dave Barry, once described one of the singular events of his adulthood as a married man with children and an enviable job as a syndicated columnist based in one of the nation's top newspapers. It consisted of firing a potato gun off the roof of his newspaper's building.
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Old 08-05-2018, 12:39 PM
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Eh. Maybe the willingness to put personal interests second and focus on responsibility first (career, family, children).

Other than that, not much.
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Old 08-05-2018, 12:42 PM
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Then why not title your thread "what separates adults from children?" unless all you want is a discussion of what constitutes masculinity.
Because thatís not a saying?
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Old 08-05-2018, 12:49 PM
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One of my favorite philosophers, disguised as a humorist named Dave Barry, once described one of the singular events of his adulthood as a married man with children and an enviable job as a syndicated columnist based in one of the nation's top newspapers. It consisted of firing a potato gun off the roof of his newspaper's building.
But, note that Barry drew a distinction between "men" and "guys."
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Old 08-05-2018, 12:57 PM
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According to jokes about various group x, a crowbar.

(As for the original question, asking what differentiates one vaguely defined group from another vaguely defined group is going to generate at least as many answers as there are posters.)
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Old 08-05-2018, 02:52 PM
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According to one person I know it is owning and wearing shoes that aren't sneakers. I told her I thought it was not allowing others to dictate my worth based on sartorial choices. :-)
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Old 08-05-2018, 03:16 PM
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The very brief period that marks the transition is when your erections last an appropriate length of time.
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Old 08-05-2018, 03:58 PM
Lizard Lizard is offline
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Eh. Maybe the willingness to put personal interests second and focus on responsibility first (career, family, children).
Except that all three of those responsibilities are at least partly voluntary. No one NEEDS to have a family or children, and what constitutes a "career" anyway? I have a job most people consider a career, but I've got a suspicion that my parents don't consider me an "adult" because I've never been married, have no kids, and don't own a house, mostly all through my own free will.

I suspect kids/marriage/house = adulthood to a great many people, regardless of age or maturity. Can't put my finger on why I think that, it's just a feeling.
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Old 08-05-2018, 03:59 PM
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Then why not title your thread "what separates adults from children?" unless all you want is a discussion of what constitutes masculinity.
Nothing wrong with either one, or both at once. This is MPSIMS, not Great Debates.
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Old 08-05-2018, 04:11 PM
Thudlow Boink Thudlow Boink is offline
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I suspect kids/marriage/house = adulthood to a great many people, regardless of age or maturity. Can't put my finger on why I think that, it's just a feeling.
Maybe because there's a maturity progression from someone else being responsible for you, to you being responsible for yourself, to you being responsible for something or someone else in addition to just yourself.

Taking on commitments like those, and successfully following through on them, takes a certain level of maturity. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with not deciding not to take on those commitments in the first place, but it might mean you're less "mature" than those who do, or it might just make it harder for people to judge how mature you are.
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Old 08-05-2018, 04:18 PM
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Maybe because there's a maturity progression from someone else being responsible for you, to you being responsible for yourself, to you being responsible for something or someone else in addition to just yourself.

Taking on commitments like those, and successfully following through on them, takes a certain level of maturity. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with not deciding not to take on those commitments in the first place, but it might mean you're less "mature" than those who do, or it might just make it harder for people to judge how mature you are.
"Successfully following through on them" is a very nebulous concept. Who is to say when that occurs? Or how to tell? Is it when all the kids are 18? If they all graduate from college? If none ever go to jail? That's why I think that entire concept is just cultural propaganda. It's just an easy way to judge someone by some standard that at its heart is random.
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Old 08-05-2018, 04:27 PM
Ulfreida Ulfreida is offline
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The most common woman's perspective?

Very, very little.

Most of the women I know expect very little out of men in terms of things like impulse control, taking emotional responsibility, cleaning up after themselves, taking care of others, and other markers that women think of signs of adulthood. Those that do, learn not to.
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Old 08-05-2018, 04:38 PM
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A child wants to eat just hamburgers and pizza every day for a week. I actually did that a few months ago, but it was because I had to use up some ground beef and mozzarella before they went bad.

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The most common woman's perspective?

Very, very little.

Most of the women I know expect very little out of men in terms of things like impulse control, taking emotional responsibility, cleaning up after themselves, taking care of others, and other markers that women think of signs of adulthood. Those that do, learn not to.
That's rather insulting.
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Old 08-05-2018, 05:05 PM
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That's extremely insulting. Shall I also say that most men I know expect very little from women in terms of intelligence, rational thinking, and driving ability? No, I can't say that because most men I know don't think that way. But perhaps the men I know are more mature than the women Ulfreida knows.
  #19  
Old 08-05-2018, 05:10 PM
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The most common woman's perspective?

Very, very little.

Most of the women I know expect very little out of men in terms of things like impulse control, taking emotional responsibility, cleaning up after themselves, taking care of others, and other markers that women think of signs of adulthood. Those that do, learn not to.
I think of them as signs of adulthood in women and men, and just as high a percentage of men meet them in my life as women.
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Old 08-05-2018, 05:24 PM
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The most common woman's perspective?

Very, very little.

Most of the women I know expect very little out of men in terms of things like impulse control, taking emotional responsibility, cleaning up after themselves, taking care of others, and other markers that women think of signs of adulthood. Those that do, learn not to.
I guess I'm fortunate that the women in my life are not the most common ones.
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Old 08-05-2018, 05:30 PM
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"Man children" don't know how to do basic things. Like cooking their own meals, cleaning up their own dwellings, paying their own bills, and tackling their problems head-on.

Lots of "man children" are married with children. It is true that a lot of men become less child-like when they are made responsible for another human being. But you can become responsible without going down this path.

You know want to know what I think what separates adults from children, psychologically? Children allow their parents to influence their opinions. In contrast, adults are able to see that their parents are full of wisdom AND bullshit, and they know how to distinguish the two. If your parents are giving you a hard time for not living some highly romanticized lifestyle, then shut that BS down with a well-crafted argument. Or stop talking to them.
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Old 08-05-2018, 05:58 PM
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I think of them as signs of adulthood in women and men, and just as high a percentage of men meet them in my life as women.
They are indeed signs of adulthood in both sexes. But my experience is that there are a lot more grownup women than men, and I stand by my statement that the generality of women would agree with that.
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Old 08-05-2018, 06:06 PM
Sloe Moe Sloe Moe is offline
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They become inferior to females beginning at 14, or so the claim goes.
  #24  
Old 08-05-2018, 06:13 PM
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They are indeed signs of adulthood in both sexes. But my experience is that there are a lot more grownup women than men, and I stand by my statement that the generality of women would agree with that.
The generality of women may agree but that doesn't make them right. It's offensive to the many men who are responsible adults, and also women who don't think that gender is a way to determine whether someone acts like an adult or not. It's very easy to point to plenty of both male and female adults who are irresponsible and selfish.
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Old 08-05-2018, 07:01 PM
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They are indeed signs of adulthood in both sexes. But my experience is that there are a lot more grownup women than men, and I stand by my statement that the generality of women would agree with that.
And I observe that the difference between girls and grown-up women is that grown-up women are self-entitled, have a high opinion of themselves, and reject Ross's concept of the fundamental attribution error. Positions that the generality of women agree with them on.
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Old 08-05-2018, 07:21 PM
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Both women and men can be immature. I guess the point I was subtly hinting at (or that just went unsaid) was that there must be some specific markers of adult masculinity that ARE gender specific but not purely physical. If so, what are they? I suppose it's possible there aren't, but ... well, that would upset the romantic notions many people have.

Last edited by Lizard; 08-05-2018 at 07:22 PM.
  #27  
Old 08-05-2018, 07:21 PM
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True, but if you follow the Dave Barry philosophy closely it turns out that "men" is a theoretical, or de jure concept; that is, "men" is supposed to be what boys become when they grow older, but it isn't. When boys grow older they mostly turn into "guys". "Men" is a vanishingly rare subspecies, rarely found in nature.
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Old 08-05-2018, 07:26 PM
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They are indeed signs of adulthood in both sexes. But my experience is that there are a lot more grownup women than men, and I stand by my statement that the generality of women would agree with that.
Of course that depends on how "being a grown-up" is defined, right? And who is to say that women get to define it exclusively their own way? I don't think being a grown up is something women get to define and that men have to honor exclusively. It's funny how often that seems to happen though.
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Old 08-05-2018, 07:36 PM
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Of course that depends on how "being a grown-up" is defined, right? And who is to say that women get to define it exclusively their own way? I don't think being a grown up is something women get to define and that men have to honor exclusively. It's funny how often that seems to happen though.
Wonder why.
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Old 08-05-2018, 07:39 PM
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They are indeed signs of adulthood in both sexes. But my experience is that there are a lot more grownup women than men, and I stand by my statement that the generality of women would agree with that.
Why are you trying to make a statement for anyone but yourself? What value is in it? State your opinion without trying to drag other women into it. I resent like hell having to say that you don't speak for me.
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Old 08-05-2018, 07:42 PM
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Wonder why.
Well, when men think all women should have sex any time men want it, clean up after everyone else, and suffer in silence, we say those men are naive (or some other less-nice word; it's possible to lack knowledge/experience and NOT be an @$$hole though). I'd say when women think all men should act the way women think they should act, the same term applies.
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Old 08-05-2018, 09:46 PM
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Body hair and increased muscle mass. Not very profound, but there you are.
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Old 08-06-2018, 12:57 AM
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Except that all three of those responsibilities are at least partly voluntary. No one NEEDS to have a family or children, and what constitutes a "career" anyway? I have a job most people consider a career, but I've got a suspicion that my parents don't consider me an "adult" because I've never been married, have no kids, and don't own a house, mostly all through my own free will.

I suspect kids/marriage/house = adulthood to a great many people, regardless of age or maturity. Can't put my finger on why I think that, it's just a feeling.
Welcome to the club. I'm also financially self sufficient but chose not to get married, have kids or buy a home. I run into the same thing, I'm not an adult to many people.

Supposedly there are a variety of things society deems necessary to qualify as an adult.

A career that offers self sufficiency
Own a home
Be married
Have kids


We can start a club and call it the one quarters club. I call treasurer.
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Old 08-06-2018, 02:19 AM
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We can start a club and call it the one quarters club. I call treasurer.
I'll be non-voting member at large.
  #35  
Old 08-06-2018, 04:46 AM
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Independence.
  #36  
Old 08-06-2018, 08:38 AM
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Running your own boat. Not expecting people to do for you. Not acting like your problems should be solved or even be of interest to anyone else, all of whom have their own problems to deal with.
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Old 08-06-2018, 08:42 AM
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The cost of the toys; seriously.
WTF? So a responsible mature (poor) adult is a boy because he doesnít have money to waste on toys? Iíll say thatís not even close.
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:00 AM
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Why are you trying to make a statement for anyone but yourself? What value is in it? State your opinion without trying to drag other women into it. I resent like hell having to say that you don't speak for me.
Um, sorry.

I guess I was thinking of all the many many conversations I've had with other women about men. My bad.
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:15 AM
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Um, sorry.

I guess I was thinking of all the many many conversations I've had with other women about men. My bad.
There's a common denominator in all of your conversations about men.
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:26 AM
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The very brief period that marks the transition is when your erections last an appropriate length of time.
Truth. There should be a way to space that shit out.

Having to get all of your tattoos referring to your "Rod of Lordly Might" corrected to read "Spongebob" is not for the faint of heart or the capable of introspection either.
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:52 AM
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You know want to know what I think what separates adults from children, psychologically? Children allow their parents to influence their opinions. In contrast, adults are able to see that their parents are full of wisdom AND bullshit, and they know how to distinguish the two.
I would have said the opposite about children, i.e. they tend to ignore their parents' wisdom and give in to their own impulses, often to their own detriment. Goddamit, Dad, I don't need to have anyone hold my hand while I walk up to the edge of the cliff! And I don't care if the bicycle isn't on sale, I want to buy it now, at full price!

But maybe it's both, something like what you expressed in your later sentence, but generalized beyond the child-parent relationship: a child tends to take all an authority figure says as gospel, or tends to ignore all an authority figure says as bullshit. An adult develops an ability for rational free-thought that is neither excessively credulous nor excessively defiant.
  #42  
Old 08-06-2018, 11:42 AM
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When they can fill the unforgiving minute with 60 seconds worth of distance run?
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Old 08-06-2018, 11:45 AM
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State and federal laws.
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Old 08-06-2018, 12:07 PM
HoneyBadgerDC HoneyBadgerDC is online now
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I think ones ability to properly prioritize things and then have the courage to follow through on responsibilities to the very best of your ability.
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Old 08-06-2018, 01:37 PM
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According to jokes about various group x, a crowbar.
Yep, that's about as far as I could get.

OK. A boy becomes a man when he is possessed of the capability AND the will to cease to exist as an individual, and without expectation of recognition of the sacrifice--when a set of needs and desires exists, but can be set aside at will in favor of the needs and desires of another. Many males never get there no matter how long they live; and many males get there very soon.

Put another way: (generally speaking) adult males are physically stronger and more aggressive than females. "Dominance" gets defined in terms of forcing someone else to be submissive. Pretty much any adult male can physically dominate pretty much any adult female. But only a Man is willing to dominate himself and lend his strength in service of others.
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Old 08-06-2018, 04:30 PM
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I always felt what separates immature people from mature people is the willingness to sacrifice their own personal happiness for the happiness of another, be they your partner, your children, or anyone else where you would expect no personal gain in return. The hallmark of a manchild (or spoiled adult brat) is the continued insistence of their own personal pleasure at the expense of their own partner and children.
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Old 08-06-2018, 06:25 PM
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There's a common denominator in all of your conversations about men.
On this board there is, true. Not everywhere.
  #48  
Old 08-06-2018, 06:46 PM
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It's my understanding that the difference between mature people and immature people is that people who have decided they're mature select aspects about their life which they feel they've accomplished and declare those "mature", and declare that anyone who hasn't met those criteria is "immature".

Immature people are those who are still using the criteria set by mature people to determine what's mature (and often finding themselves wanting), and have not realized that they can flip the game and use it as an excuse to criticize others instead.
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:34 AM
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On this board there is, true. Not everywhere.
If an Incel said that he had all sorts of conversations with men about women and that most men would agree that women suck, you'd recognize that it doesn't actually mean that women suck or that most men would agree. In that extreme example, we can see the fallacy of thinking our context is reality. But in our day-to-day lives, we create a context too. Our common denominator is us.
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:12 PM
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If an Incel said that he had all sorts of conversations with men about women and that most men would agree that women suck, you'd recognize that it doesn't actually mean that women suck or that most men would agree. In that extreme example, we can see the fallacy of thinking our context is reality. But in our day-to-day lives, we create a context too. Our common denominator is us.
I like to think I'm a bit more nuanced than that. I'll just leave other women out of the below, then, despite all the corroboration, anecdotal and otherwise.

My experience is that men in general push a lot of what is now known as "emotional labor" on to women. This has become sort of a catch all term for the really infinite number of tasks, from bringing snacks and writing thank you notes to making sure everyone is dressed appropriately, to smoothing over hurt feelings and pacifying anger, that men have assigned to women in this culture and for which women are duly censured in subtle ways if they fail to notice and make happen. It takes a lot of time and attention to continually manufacture and apply this social glue. It's invisible to most men, it appears.

When someone casually assumes that you will do a job they could do perfectly well but just don't feel like exerting themselves to do -- because they won't get socially punished for showing up without a casserole or their kid wearing the wrong shoes, but you will -- I am calling that self-absorbed and immature.

Data suggests a significant difference between conservative marriages and liberal marriages. In general, in conservative marriages, both partners agree that the woman does the bulk of the housework and childcare duties. In liberal marriages, both partners agree that these are shared rather equally. However, in both conservative and liberal marriages, women do a very similar majority of these tasks. It's just that there is a shared lie about it in liberal marriages.

To me, not pulling your weight in the cleaning, laundry, errand, childrearing, and chore part of keeping a house together -- and then blithely imagining that you are -- is a sign of selfishness and immaturity.

These are just two examples.

Of course, you may feel much differently.

Last edited by Ulfreida; 08-07-2018 at 01:14 PM.
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