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  #1  
Old 08-05-2018, 10:29 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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A list of things my children will never have to experience/worry about

  • War
    Genocide
    Poverty
    Pollution
    Rape, murder, robbery, assault, or any other crime
    Imprisonment
    Finding employment
    Working at a job they hate
    Mass shootings/random violence
    Tyranny
    Taxes
    Torture
    Imprisonment
    Terrorism
    Loneliness
    Having to find a mate
    Boredom
    Rejection
    Cancer or any other disease
    Car crashes
    Premature balding
    Injury
    Menstruation, urination, defecation, and other bodily functions
    Hunger
    Misery
    Grief
    Depression
    Mental ilness
    Guilt/shame
    Long waits at the DMV
    Long waits at the doctors office
    Debt
    Getting good grades in school
    Fatigue
    Lack of sleep
    Loss
    Heartbreak
    Desire for things they will never be able to have
    Anger
    Frustration
    Obesity
    Climate change
    Fear
    Loss
    Failure
    Nasty divorces
    Not having enough money to "make ends meet."
    Old age
    and last but not least...
    DEATH

I have found an utterly foolproof way to prevent my children from experiencing or worrying about any of the above. What would you guys say? You think I did them a solid?
  #2  
Old 08-05-2018, 10:31 PM
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Let me guess, you don't have kids.
  #3  
Old 08-05-2018, 10:46 PM
Joey P Joey P is offline
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Not losing their connection to Napster because someone picked up the phone.
  #4  
Old 08-05-2018, 10:50 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
Let me guess, you don't have kids.
No, I have children. They just don't exist in this world. They exist in the Realm of the Unborn, and they shall remain there forever.
  #5  
Old 08-05-2018, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
I have found an utterly foolproof way to prevent my children from experiencing or worrying about any of the above. What would you guys say? You think I did them a solid?
Not really. There's an equally long list of joys you prevented them from having.
  #6  
Old 08-05-2018, 11:13 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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Originally Posted by OldGuy View Post
Not really. There's an equally long list of joys you prevented them from having.
The unborn cannot be deprived of anything.
  #7  
Old 08-05-2018, 11:25 PM
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Except life.
  #8  
Old 08-05-2018, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
  • War
    Genocide
    Poverty
    Pollution
    Rape, murder, robbery, assault, or any other crime
    Imprisonment
    Finding employment
    Working at a job they hate
    Mass shootings/random violence
    Tyranny
    Taxes
    Torture
    Imprisonment
    Terrorism
    Loneliness
    Having to find a mate
    Boredom
    Rejection
    Cancer or any other disease
    Car crashes
    Premature balding
    Injury
    Menstruation, urination, defecation, and other bodily functions
    Hunger
    Misery
    Grief
    Depression
    Mental ilness
    Guilt/shame
    Long waits at the DMV
    Long waits at the doctors office
    Debt
    Getting good grades in school
    Fatigue
    Lack of sleep
    Loss
    Heartbreak
    Desire for things they will never be able to have
    Anger
    Frustration
    Obesity
    Climate change
    Fear
    Loss
    Failure
    Nasty divorces
    Not having enough money to "make ends meet."
    Old age
    and last but not least...
    DEATH

I have found an utterly foolproof way to prevent my children from experiencing or worrying about any of the above. What would you guys say? You think I did them a solid?
You forgot "Having a chronically depressed father to whom even Eeyore says 'Hey, lighten up, man!'.".
  #9  
Old 08-05-2018, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
The unborn cannot be deprived of anything.
If your children somehow exist in the "Realm of the Unborn" then it's possible they're not happy there. The only sure way to avoid suffering is to not exist.
  #10  
Old 08-06-2018, 12:23 AM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
If your children somehow exist in the "Realm of the Unborn" then it's possible they're not happy there. The only sure way to avoid suffering is to not exist.
I was speaking allegorically when I said that.
  #11  
Old 08-06-2018, 12:40 AM
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These are also things Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny don't have to worry about.
  #12  
Old 08-06-2018, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
[LIST]
I have found an utterly foolproof way to prevent my children from experiencing or worrying about any of the above. What would you guys say? You think I did them a solid?
So you don't give a rat's ass about the rest of us having to go through all that shit, eh? Nice.
  #13  
Old 08-06-2018, 02:15 AM
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You don't have unborn unless your sperm got to the egg. You just have a gleam in your eye.
  #14  
Old 08-06-2018, 02:18 AM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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Originally Posted by Beckdawrek View Post
You don't have unborn unless your sperm got to the egg. You just have a gleam in your eye.
'Unconceived' would be a more correct term.
  #15  
Old 08-06-2018, 02:23 AM
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Ah, semantics. You know what I meant.
  #16  
Old 08-06-2018, 02:26 AM
Richard Pearse Richard Pearse is offline
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
The unborn cannot be deprived of anything.
In that case they cant be spared anything either.
  #17  
Old 08-06-2018, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
  • War
    Genocide
    Poverty
    Pollution
    Rape, murder, robbery, assault, or any other crime
    Imprisonment
    Finding employment
    Working at a job they hate
    Mass shootings/random violence
    Tyranny
    Taxes
    Torture
    Imprisonment
    Terrorism
    Loneliness
    Having to find a mate
    Boredom
    Rejection
    Cancer or any other disease
    Car crashes
    Premature balding
    Injury
    Menstruation, urination, defecation, and other bodily functions
    Hunger
    Misery
    Grief
    Depression
    Mental ilness
    Guilt/shame
    Long waits at the DMV
    Long waits at the doctors office
    Debt
    Getting good grades in school
    Fatigue
    Lack of sleep
    Loss
    Heartbreak
    Desire for things they will never be able to have
    Anger
    Frustration
    Obesity
    Climate change
    Fear
    Loss
    Failure
    Nasty divorces
    Not having enough money to "make ends meet."
    Old age
    and last but not least...
    DEATH

I have found an utterly foolproof way to prevent my children from experiencing or worrying about any of the above. What would you guys say? You think I did them a solid?
Mind. Blown.
  #18  
Old 08-06-2018, 05:00 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
  • War
    Genocide
    Poverty
    Pollution
    Rape, murder, robbery, assault, or any other crime
    Imprisonment
    Finding employment
    Working at a job they hate
    Mass shootings/random violence
    Tyranny
    Taxes
    Torture
    Imprisonment
    Terrorism
    Loneliness
    Having to find a mate
    Boredom
    Rejection
    Cancer or any other disease
    Car crashes
    Premature balding
    Injury
    Menstruation, urination, defecation, and other bodily functions
    Hunger
    Misery
    Grief
    Depression
    Mental ilness
    Guilt/shame
    Long waits at the DMV
    Long waits at the doctors office
    Debt
    Getting good grades in school
    Fatigue
    Lack of sleep
    Loss
    Heartbreak
    Desire for things they will never be able to have
    Anger
    Frustration
    Obesity
    Climate change
    Fear
    Loss
    Failure
    Nasty divorces
    Not having enough money to "make ends meet."
    Old age
    and last but not least...
    DEATH

I have found an utterly foolproof way to prevent my children from experiencing or worrying about any of the above. What would you guys say? You think I did them a solid?
I think you just passed a solid.

Granted, the world has a lot of problems. It also has a lot of joy. You're depriving them of the joys of that first perfect spring day, of falling in love, of being a parent, of discovering a cure for that disease or writing that novel or working to better the world. It can be a joyless, unhappy world but for every challenge there is an opportunity.
  #19  
Old 08-06-2018, 12:06 PM
G0sp3l G0sp3l is offline
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
'Unconceived' would be a more correct term.
Are you sure that word means what you think it means?
  #20  
Old 08-06-2018, 12:16 PM
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It is inherently dishonest to leave out all the things your children will never experience and enjoy:

Ice cream
Bacon
A threesome (the good kind, not the devil kind)
Roller coasters
Learning to read
Birthday cakes
Moving away from their parent(s)
Seeing you called and not return the call

There's so much more to add, but I've proven my point.
  #21  
Old 08-06-2018, 01:15 PM
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Are you sure that word means what you think it means?
Unconceivable!
  #22  
Old 08-06-2018, 01:50 PM
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Come on, people. Stay in your damned lanes!
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Y'all are just too damned serious. Lighten up.
  #23  
Old 08-06-2018, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
You're depriving them of the joys of that first perfect spring day, of falling in love, of being a parent, of discovering a cure for that disease or writing that novel or working to better the world. It can be a joyless, unhappy world but for every challenge there is an opportunity.
This reminds me of a song I heard on the radio back in the '80s. Actually more like spoken words backed by music, it was a man's voice explaining all the great things about life that you would miss out on if you killed yourself. Been looking for that ever since, can't seem to track it down...
  #24  
Old 08-06-2018, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
I was speaking allegorically when I said that.
Your argument doesn't work if it's only an allegory.
  #25  
Old 08-06-2018, 02:54 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
You're depriving them....
Again, they cannot be deprived of anything. But people who have already been born, can be deprived of all the things you mentioned.
  #26  
Old 08-06-2018, 03:07 PM
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Have you been reading David Benatar?

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/pe...not-being-born

Quote:
Originally Posted by naita View Post
It is inherently dishonest to leave out all the things your children will never experience and enjoy:

Ice cream
Bacon
A threesome (the good kind, not the devil kind)
Roller coasters
Learning to read
Birthday cakes
Moving away from their parent(s)
Seeing you called and not return the call

There's so much more to add, but I've proven my point.
The logical argument for asymmetric utility is:

Quote:
the presence of pain is bad;
the presence of pleasure is good;
the absence of pain is good, even if that good is not enjoyed by anyone;
the absence of pleasure is not bad unless there is somebody for whom this absence is a deprivation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Benatar

Last edited by Riemann; 08-06-2018 at 03:11 PM.
  #27  
Old 08-06-2018, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
Again, they cannot be deprived of anything. But people who have already been born, can be deprived of all the things you mentioned.
You are being deprived of a lot, though.

A child snuggling up to you as you read him books.
The look of joy and pride as they do something wonderful.
The feeling of absolute and unconditional love you get when you hold your baby for the first time.
Grandchildren

My kids have given me far more joy than sorrow. Sad you'll never experience that.
  #28  
Old 08-06-2018, 05:28 PM
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Are you sure you're ok with this decision? I've been of childbearing age for in excess of 25 years and have two kids to show for it. I can't say I routinely spend any time thinking about my "unconceived" offspring. Yours seem to play on your mind.
  #29  
Old 08-06-2018, 05:42 PM
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I join the hordes in saying that your logic is incoherent. If you can take credit for sparing them from the bad, then you must equally take credit for depriving them of the good. Either neither can be considered, or both must be.

Which is not to say that the good outweighs the bad - perhaps it doesn't! (Especially if you know you have a genetic disease that will cause all your children to burst into unquenchable flame upon taking their first breath.) But in doing this calculation you must take into account both sides rather than just ignoring the factors that oppose your preselected conclusion.

Last edited by begbert2; 08-06-2018 at 05:42 PM.
  #30  
Old 08-06-2018, 05:49 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
I join the hordes in saying that your logic is incoherent. If you can take credit for sparing them from the bad, then you must equally take credit for depriving them of the good. Either neither can be considered, or both must be.

Which is not to say that the good outweighs the bad - perhaps it doesn't! (Especially if you know you have a genetic disease that will cause all your children to burst into unquenchable flame upon taking their first breath.) But in doing this calculation you must take into account both sides rather than just ignoring the factors that oppose your preselected conclusion.
How about instead of saying I've "spared" them, we say I have refused to bring a person into a world where all the things I listed are a reality?
  #31  
Old 08-06-2018, 05:50 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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Have you been reading David Benatar?

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/pe...not-being-born



The logical argument for asymmetric utility is:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Benatar
I know of Benatar, and his arguments. I don't really agree with his methodology, but the conclusions he comes to are correct
  #32  
Old 08-06-2018, 06:06 PM
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What you did is between God and you, and you can not deprive 'your' unborne from life - nor have you saved them from any of those things, as that is between them and God and the plan for their lives. When your 'unborne' realize that you never had any power over them to deny them of life they will move on in their eternal journey.

Last edited by kanicbird; 08-06-2018 at 06:06 PM.
  #33  
Old 08-06-2018, 06:16 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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How about instead of saying I've "spared" them, we say I have refused to bring a person into a world where all the things I listed are a reality?
This is legitimate, presuming you mean "I have considered all the possible good outcomes, and all the possible negative outcomes, and weighted each by probability and severity prior to summing them up, and based on the outcome of this assessment concluded that life isn't worth living."

Well, that or "Long waits at the DMV are the dealbreaker! No life that includes that could ever be worth living!!!"

The risk to advancing either argument, of course, is that the response might be "why are you still alive then?" Admittedly the statement that your DMV years are behind you would be a valid answer to that.
  #34  
Old 08-06-2018, 06:27 PM
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Every single one of your children is continually experiencing everything on that list.
  #35  
Old 08-06-2018, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
How about instead of saying I've "spared" them, we say I have refused to bring a person into a world where all the things I listed are a reality?
And you have refused to bring a person into a world where all the good things are a reality. Im not sure what your circumstances are, but 99% of my life is either happy or neutral. I would also wonder why you are here if your opinion is that life is literally not worth living.
  #36  
Old 08-06-2018, 09:05 PM
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How about instead of saying I've "spared" them, we say I have refused to bring a person into a world where all the things I listed are a reality?
Imagine a hypothetical waiting room for souls who may or may not get a chance to live in our world. You're one of those souls. The world is described to you. Would you choose to exist?

How confident are you that your hypothetical children would have made the same choice as you?

It's entirely possible that, if you had kids, they'd be as grateful as I am for the opportunity to pick wild blueberries and to snuggle and to smell a cooking steak and to swim and to read e.e. cummings and to love. The suffering of the world isn't a small price to pay, but it's a price worth paying, for existence.

It's entirely possible they wouldn't.

Choosing your own actions based on the actions of those who won't ever exist is an absurdity. There are tons of reasons to have kids or not to have kids, but this nonsense is incoherent.
  #37  
Old 08-06-2018, 09:27 PM
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Besides, I'm guessing that the amount you would have to pay one of those hookers to have your kid would really cut into your Detroit retirement fund.
  #38  
Old 08-06-2018, 10:14 PM
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I looked at the list more closely, and most of it neither I nor my kids ever experienced. Some of the things are actually pleasurable. Getting good grades was not a torment for any of us. Neither was finding a mate. Nor is paying taxes - I know what I get back from them.
Finding jobs has not been all that difficult for us. Good times at work far outweigh bad times.
Some people are said to be miserable if someone, somewhere is having fun. You seem to think life is not worth living if someone, somewhere, is unhappy. Tsk.
  #39  
Old 08-06-2018, 10:38 PM
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You should make another list. This list should be the things you miss by not having kids. Sure kids can be a pain sometimes. The love you feel for them and get from them is worth more than the suffering. Not everyone should have kids, but don't choose not to based on that list.

Last edited by Beckdawrek; 08-06-2018 at 10:39 PM.
  #40  
Old 08-06-2018, 10:48 PM
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...defecation...
OP has obviously never experienced a good dump. Are you even human bro?
  #41  
Old 08-06-2018, 10:55 PM
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While it's true that not being alive means missing out on the good as well as the bad, the case can be made that some bad things in life are VERY VERY bad, whereas many "good things" in life are usually only moderately good. The agony of suffering severe burns over your entire body would outweigh the pleasure of ten thousand mornings of waking up and seeing the sunrise and smelling the daisies. IOW there is more bad potential than good potential in life, from a certain perspective.
  #42  
Old 08-07-2018, 12:01 AM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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While it's true that not being alive means missing out on the good as well as the bad, the case can be made that some bad things in life are VERY VERY bad, whereas many "good things" in life are usually only moderately good. The agony of suffering severe burns over your entire body would outweigh the pleasure of ten thousand mornings of waking up and seeing the sunrise and smelling the daisies. IOW there is more bad potential than good potential in life, from a certain perspective.
Pain, suffering are experienced far, far more intensely than joy, pleasure. Ask yourself if you would be willing to endure 1 hour of the most brutal, agonizing torture imaginable in exchange for a full 24 hours of the highest euphoric bliss possible.
It is also monumentally easier to suffer in this world than it is to be "happy." If you asked me "what should I do to suffer" I could recommend you dozens of straightforward, actionable, easy, and extremely effective ways to do just that of the top of my head- hit yourself with a hammer, stick your hand in a flame, lick a cop, hell, just sit still and do nothing.
Joy is far, far harder to achieve and more elusive, and it is fleeting and rare, compared with the ever nagging sufferings, discomforts, deprivations, frustrations, and so on- of life.
  #43  
Old 08-07-2018, 12:03 AM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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Originally Posted by kanicbird View Post
What you did is between God and you, and you can not deprive 'your' unborne from life - nor have you saved them from any of those things, as that is between them and God and the plan for their lives. When your 'unborne' realize that you never had any power over them to deny them of life they will move on in their eternal journey.
I want nothing to do with your god. This 'god' deserves nothing but condemnation for creating the most abhorrent, messed up world you could possibly design.

Last edited by Marcus Flavius; 08-07-2018 at 12:07 AM.
  #44  
Old 08-07-2018, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
Pain, suffering are experienced far, far more intensely than joy, pleasure. Ask yourself if you would be willing to endure 1 hour of the most brutal, agonizing torture imaginable in exchange for a full 24 hours of the highest euphoric bliss possible.
It is also monumentally easier to suffer in this world than it is to be "happy." If you asked me "what should I do to suffer" I could recommend you dozens of straightforward, actionable, easy, and extremely effective ways to do just that of the top of my head- hit yourself with a hammer, stick your hand in a flame, lick a cop, hell, just sit still and do nothing.
Joy is far, far harder to achieve and more elusive, and it is fleeting and rare, compared with the ever nagging sufferings, discomforts, deprivations, frustrations, and so on- of life.
True, like the saying that "It takes many years to build a good reputation but only a minute's indiscretion to destroy it." But that's how it is, a certain Murphy's Law of life if you will.
  #45  
Old 08-07-2018, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Machine Elf View Post
This reminds me of a song I heard on the radio back in the '80s. Actually more like spoken words backed by music, it was a man's voice explaining all the great things about life that you would miss out on if you killed yourself. Been looking for that ever since, can't seem to track it down...
Would that be "Desiderata" by Les Crane?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoStoTnGIEk

From 1971, but it's possible to have heard it in the 1980s on some stations. National Lampoon parodied it some years later, as "Deteriorata.":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFLvhKv-Lbo

More likely to be played in the 1980s, but rather bleak; not about great things in life.

Anyway, would one of these be what you are looking for, Machine Elf?
  #46  
Old 08-07-2018, 04:30 AM
Richard Pearse Richard Pearse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
Pain, suffering are experienced far, far more intensely than joy, pleasure. Ask yourself if you would be willing to endure 1 hour of the most brutal, agonizing torture imaginable in exchange for a full 24 hours of the highest euphoric bliss possible.
It is also monumentally easier to suffer in this world than it is to be "happy." If you asked me "what should I do to suffer" I could recommend you dozens of straightforward, actionable, easy, and extremely effective ways to do just that of the top of my head- hit yourself with a hammer, stick your hand in a flame, lick a cop, hell, just sit still and do nothing.
Joy is far, far harder to achieve and more elusive, and it is fleeting and rare, compared with the ever nagging sufferings, discomforts, deprivations, frustrations, and so on- of life.
I agree that you shouldn't have children. Not because of all the things you list, but because your outlook on life would be more depressing for the kids than any torture imaginable.

I note you haven't given a reason for why you are living. If life is so horrible why do you persist with it? Your continuing existence is incompatible with your supposed outlook. It reads to me like you just don't want children and have come up with a cute philosophy to justify it. The best reason for not having kids is because you just don't want them.

I will also point out that you can avoid the vast majority of true suffering (not crap like "boredom") by having children in a western country and providing them with a good upbringing.
  #47  
Old 08-07-2018, 08:26 AM
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Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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My children are real, and they don't have to worry about those things. Strife, pain, difficulty, etc is part of being alive. Worrying about it is, to a large extent, a choice. You don't *have* to worry about anything.
  #48  
Old 08-07-2018, 08:41 AM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
No, I have children. They just don't exist in this world. They exist in the Realm of the Unborn, and they shall remain there forever.
Maybe everyone is walking away a winner in this scenario. Good work!
  #49  
Old 08-07-2018, 08:41 AM
Machine Elf Machine Elf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoons View Post
Would that be "Desiderata" by Les Crane?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoStoTnGIEk

From 1971, but it's possible to have heard it in the 1980s on some stations. National Lampoon parodied it some years later, as "Deteriorata.":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFLvhKv-Lbo

More likely to be played in the 1980s, but rather bleak; not about great things in life.

Anyway, would one of these be what you are looking for, Machine Elf?
Thanks, but no, those weren't it. It wasn't really poetic like that, it was more like a list, albeit spoken with a bit of passion. The only lines I can really remember are these (and I may be misremembering):

"If you're a boy, you'll miss out on the feeling you get the first time you stick your hand down a girl's pants. If you're a girl, you'll miss out on the feeling you get the first time you stick your hand down a boy's pants." (heteronormative, sure, but such were the times.)
  #50  
Old 08-07-2018, 11:36 AM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
I want nothing to do with your god. This 'god' deserves nothing but condemnation for creating the most abhorrent, messed up world you could possibly design.
Trust me, I could design a significantly more abhorrent, messed up world than the one I'm currently living in. The tricky part would be keeping it populated, but given divine power I'm sure I could come up with some mechanism to replace all the people that are tortured to death (which is to say, all of them). Perhaps I could keep resurrecting them, so that the pleasant memories of their prior suffering wouldn't be lost.

Seriously, that list in your OP is absurd, if you're trying to claim there's any significant chance that any kid you spawned would experience it all. Yes, if you actually know that your kid will experience the worst extremes on the list then you should consider sparing them the experience. (Like maybe you're living in a lawless hellhole where the local warlord swings by every three years and takes all the toddlers as sex slaves.) But you know what? I don't believe you live in a hellhole. I don't believe that there's any significant chance any kid of yours would be tortured to death at all.

Which means that to do a fair assessment, you'd need to, well, do a fair assessment. Which means doing a complex weighted comparison of all possible experiences accounting for severity and probability.

Or you could take the easy route and look at the calculation that's already been done: yours. Are you alive? Are you currently trying to kill yourself? If not then you consider life worth living. QED. Go have tons of babies.

If you are not alive, or are currently in the process of murdering yourself, then I agree you shouldn't have kids.

Last edited by begbert2; 08-07-2018 at 11:38 AM. Reason: I made a typo; clearly life isn't worth living.
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