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Old 08-07-2018, 08:27 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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What the hell is going on in Chicago?

As I am sure most of you have read or seen on the news, this past weekend in Chicago was an absolute bloodbath of shootings, with over five dozen people shot, at least twelve of them dead.

I am honestly curious to to what is going on. Why is Chicago a Lethal Weapon movie? As compared to America's other major cities it is bizarrely, disproportionately violent. Here are the 2015 murder rates (murders/100K persons) for the ten biggest cities in the USA:

New York City - 3.4
Los Angeles - 7.1
Chicago - 23.8
Houston - 13.3
Phoenix - 7.2
Philadelphia - 17.9
San Antonio - 6.4
San Diego - 2.6
Dallas - 10.4 (Fort Worth is 6.7)
San Jose - 2.9

I apologize for three year old numbers but they were the easiest to find and any recent year will be roughly the same.

Over 300 people have already been murdered in Chicago this year, well ahead of a pace to have more murders than last year's 428, itself a staggering number.

What are the particular factors that make Chicago weirdly violent? There are other very violent cities - Oakland, DC, Newark for some reason, Milwaukee - but Chicago is a city I would have assumed would be more like New York, or even Toronto, a city I live close to and which reminds me of Chicago. (Toronto's all time HIGHEST reliably measured murder rate was 3.9.)
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:49 AM
Profound Gibberish Profound Gibberish is offline
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"What are the particular factors that make Chicago weirdly violent?"

Endemic corruption at every level of government, business and religious institutions.
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:04 AM
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How many of those over 300 people were black?
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:07 AM
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The vast majority of the shootings are gang-related drug turf wars and other gang conflicts.
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:16 AM
Dorjän Dorjän is offline
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How many of those over 300 people were black?
How many of the thousands of prohibition-related violence victims in NYC and Chicago during the 1920's were white?
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:17 AM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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Here are statistics for 2017:
https://heyjackass.com/category/2017-stats/

Note 527 black victims, 116 Hispanic victims, but only 20 white victims (also 15 unknown)
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:19 AM
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How many of those over 300 people were black?
I do not understand how this answers my question.
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:27 AM
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My WAG as a non-Chicago-er: Demoralized, corrupt and/or ineffective police, a lot of gang wars, lots of guns available despite strict laws, and also that a city that is known for violence, tends to be a crime magnet and attract or feed violence (although some places, like LA and NY, have successfully turned the tide on such reputations).



What are the stats on Detroit...just curious?
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:27 AM
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It's lack of organized gangs or more accurately, tons of them. What happened was that Chicago had a drug violence problem in the 90s. How they addressed it was to find the leaders of the various gangs and crack down on them hard. Then they would work their way down the hierarchy until they completely destroyed the gang. It worked great. Chicago doesn't have huge controlling gangs like other cities with the exception of the Latin Kings who have managed to maintain their hierarchy. The problem was though that while they eliminated the leadership, the gangs still existed and it created a power vacuum. This led to the creation of all sorts of small turf gangs with small numbers of members that would sometimes only control a single block. They might be nominally affiliated with the Gangster Disciples or Vice Lords, but with no leadership they were left to themselves. It's pretty easy to see the problem. Now instead of resolving differences by working with the leadership of the gang, they just kill each other. You have Gangster Disciples killing other Gangster Disciples because there is no hierarchy to keep them under control. You'll have Bob and Joe at a party and Bob will say Joe is a douche and at one time, Boss Hogg would say, "Listen, you're both Disciples, hug it out. Bob apologize." and they would. Now, Joe comes back with ten of his friends that are their own mini-gang and shoots up the party. Basically, what we did was create an Iraq in Chicago. We exchanged one big, bad guy for a thousand bad guys and chaos breeds violence.
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:27 AM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is offline
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In the past 100 years, how often has Chicago had a homicide rate that was in line with most other large cities?


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Originally Posted by Dorjän View Post
The vast majority of the shootings are gang-related drug turf wars and other gang conflicts.
I suppose the question would then be why Chicago has more gangs/gang conflicts or why those conflicts result in more shootings than in other large cities.


I think it may have to do with Chicago's raison d'être no longer being as strong as it was in the 19th and early 20th century. Back when most trade was intranational or with Canada, Chicago was great as a transportation/commerce hub between the Great Lakes, St-Lawrence river, the Atlantic and the railway web through the regions of the US. Now you'd more likely ship to/from the coasts or use the Panama canal instead. IOW: Chicago might be a large scale example of those decaying mining towns that used to be great but have been passed over by the world. It might be heading the same way as Detroit.
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:57 AM
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...lots of guns available despite strict laws...
Whodathunkit?
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:59 AM
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I do not understand how this answers my question.
That's good, because it's not an answer, it's a question.

And the answer is - because the people in charge of Chicago clearly don't care about black gang members killing each other. I thought it was obvious.
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:59 AM
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It's lack of organized gangs or more accurately, tons of them. What happened was that Chicago had a drug violence problem in the 90s. How they addressed it was to find the leaders of the various gangs and crack down on them hard. Then they would work their way down the hierarchy until they completely destroyed the gang. It worked great. Chicago doesn't have huge controlling gangs like other cities with the exception of the Latin Kings who have managed to maintain their hierarchy. The problem was though that while they eliminated the leadership, the gangs still existed and it created a power vacuum. This led to the creation of all sorts of small turf gangs with small numbers of members that would sometimes only control a single block. They might be nominally affiliated with the Gangster Disciples or Vice Lords, but with no leadership they were left to themselves. It's pretty easy to see the problem. Now instead of resolving differences by working with the leadership of the gang, they just kill each other. You have Gangster Disciples killing other Gangster Disciples because there is no hierarchy to keep them under control. You'll have Bob and Joe at a party and Bob will say Joe is a douche and at one time, Boss Hogg would say, "Listen, you're both Disciples, hug it out. Bob apologize." and they would. Now, Joe comes back with ten of his friends that are their own mini-gang and shoots up the party. Basically, what we did was create an Iraq in Chicago. We exchanged one big, bad guy for a thousand bad guys and chaos breeds violence.
Chicago is less violent than it was in the 90s.
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:02 AM
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Much of it is policing.
According to the Fraternal Order of Police the number of police detectives fell 25% from 2009-2016 as did the number of evidence technicians. The homicide clearance rate is around 30% which is awful, half of the national rate.
When Rahm Emmanuel was elected he promised more officers on the street so he disbanded anti-gang units and transferred them to beats.
After the Laquan McDonald there was a civil rights investigation into the police department that said they were too violent toward minorities. Because of this police had to start filling out a two page report instead of a checklist for every stop. This led to many fewer stops and many fewer subsequent arrests.
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:07 AM
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lots of guns available despite strict laws
They're not nearly as strict next door in Indiana, the primary source of Chicago guns.

Just one problem among many, yes, but one that can be addressed.
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:16 AM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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My understanding is there are 2 big factors in this problem.

1. The police cracked down on the big gangs, arresting their leaders. This caused the gangs to splinter into a bunch of smaller gangs who went to war with each other.

2. The city tore down the low income, high crime housing areas like Cabrini-green. The residents were then spread throughout the city. The goal was to hope that a middle class surrounding would reduce crime among the old residents, but what may have happened is now hardened criminals are spread all over the city and are starting up smaller gangs.

So basically those 2 things resulted in a large number of small gangs, rather than a small number of large gangs. And those small gangs are all fighting over territory.
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:22 AM
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In the past 100 years, how often has Chicago had a homicide rate that was in line with most other large cities?


.
Here is the last 30 years comparing Chicago to LA & NYC. Chicago is different.

https://www.columbialawreview.org/wp...6/image004.png
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:30 AM
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There are a lot of ways to look at it. None of them explain 100% of the cause.

Another way, important but also not explaining 100% of the cause: Chicago WAS a front line in the war against drugs. The war is long over; the drug dealers sacrificed some and lost some battles, but in the end they have truly won the war. Now what?

The police in Chicago are helpless. Police in other countries are not helpless. Hmmmm. Maybe there's a difference. Maybe there's something that could be learned.

Nope, I guess not. Oh well.
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:31 AM
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I live in the Chicago area, and wind up reading a lot about the problem.

From what I can tell, as several posters have already noted, the primary issues seem to be:
- The fragmented / balkanized street gang issue, stemming from the leaders of the old gangs being put away in the 1990s
- Lots of guns available (yes, Chicago has stringent gun laws, but most of the guns used in these shootings are coming from outside of the city)
- Issues with policing in the neighborhoods where many of the shootings are occurring

For those of you who don't live here, and just hear about "more shootings in Chicago": most areas of the city are, in fact, very safe. However, in the neighborhoods where the shootings are concentrated, it's a massive issue, and I can't even begin to comprehend how unnerving it must be to live in a neighborhood where shootings are a frequent occurrence.
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:44 AM
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Chicago is less violent than it was in the 90s.
That's true, but it's disingenuous to pretend that was in a vacuum. Violent crime rates everywhere were absolutely atrocious in the 90s. What happened is that every (not every obviously, but majority) other city in the country saw massive decreases in crime and Chicago saw some decreases up until the early 2000s then it leveled and increased, right around the time they started arresting major gang leaders.
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:51 AM
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Treating gun dealers exactly the way drug dealers have been treated would sure be interesting. They aren't drug gangs, they're gun gangs. The drugs are a piss in the sea, comparatively. If the gangs were fighting with knives it would still be bad, sure - but bad with a lot less dead people.
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:55 AM
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One problem is the flow of guns to Illinois.
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:05 AM
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Why? Ok, how about this.

What is wrong with Indiana gun laws?

A) No required background check when purchasing a firearm from a private seller at a gun show or on the internet.
B) No limit to the number of guns purchased at any time.

So, a "banger" with numerous arrests and prison time drives to Indiana with a suitcase full of cash. He buys as many guns as he wants, hands over the untraceable cash, and drives back to Chicago. He sells them out of the trunk of his car to any and every "banger" he meets. Result: Chicago is full of illegal, untraceable guns that are being used on a daily basis.
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:13 AM
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It's lack of organized gangs or more accurately, tons of them. What happened was that Chicago had a drug violence problem in the 90s. How they addressed it was to find the leaders of the various gangs and crack down on them hard. Then they would work their way down the hierarchy until they completely destroyed the gang. It worked great. Chicago doesn't have huge controlling gangs like other cities with the exception of the Latin Kings who have managed to maintain their hierarchy. The problem was though that while they eliminated the leadership, the gangs still existed and it created a power vacuum. This led to the creation of all sorts of small turf gangs with small numbers of members that would sometimes only control a single block. They might be nominally affiliated with the Gangster Disciples or Vice Lords, but with no leadership they were left to themselves. It's pretty easy to see the problem. Now instead of resolving differences by working with the leadership of the gang, they just kill each other. You have Gangster Disciples killing other Gangster Disciples because there is no hierarchy to keep them under control. You'll have Bob and Joe at a party and Bob will say Joe is a douche and at one time, Boss Hogg would say, "Listen, you're both Disciples, hug it out. Bob apologize." and they would. Now, Joe comes back with ten of his friends that are their own mini-gang and shoots up the party. Basically, what we did was create an Iraq in Chicago. We exchanged one big, bad guy for a thousand bad guys and chaos breeds violence.

Ah, yes. The one thing worse than organized crime, disorganized crime.
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:17 AM
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That's good, because it's not an answer, it's a question.

And the answer is - because the people in charge of Chicago clearly don't care about black gang members killing each other. I thought it was obvious.
That is not obvious to me; first I've heard of it. How do you know the authorities in Chicago are less concerned about black gang violence than in other large cities? If true, why is that? I mean, I didn't think they much cared ANYWHERE.
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:34 PM
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Chicago magazine has reported on Chicago aldermen actively seeking gang support as a valued constituency and useful source of campaign organization.
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:40 PM
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Why? Ok, how about this.

What is wrong with Indiana gun laws?

A) No required background check when purchasing a firearm from a private seller at a gun show or on the internet.
B) No limit to the number of guns purchased at any time.

So, a "banger" with numerous arrests and prison time drives to Indiana with a suitcase full of cash. He buys as many guns as he wants, hands over the untraceable cash, and drives back to Chicago. He sells them out of the trunk of his car to any and every "banger" he meets. Result: Chicago is full of illegal, untraceable guns that are being used on a daily basis.
That's a relief then, it's all Indiana's fault, nothing to do with inept Chicago politicians.
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:48 PM
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Historically, Chicago is noted for this sort of thing. I recall reading years ago, in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, that since prohibition, there had been exactly 999 gang related killings in Chicago. The total numbers of solved killings in that time? Zero.

I probably read this sometime in the late 1950's, so please don't ask for a cite. That's a long time ago.
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:00 PM
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This weekend was the perfect shitstorm:

Thursday: A group of very minor activists decided that they had to 'shut down' a major north/south highway during rush hour on the North (affluent) side of Chicago to make sure the North side felt their pain. This cost the city several hundred thousand dollars as well as endless police coverage since the activists threatened to also invade Wrigley Field.

This weekend was Lollapalooza, a massive music festival drawing well over 100,000, mostly young.

Finally, the micro gang nature of Chicago leads itself to the very petty gang battles. One gang member can make a rap video dissing another gang on YouTube and thus the other gang feels like they have to respond. The turf wars can get amplified when police, that have been working non stop since Thursday since the Lake Shore Drive shutdown are trying to empty Lollapalooza on a Sunday which leaves gang members open season on Sunday night.
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:10 PM
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This weekend was the perfect shitstorm:

Thursday: A group of very minor activists decided that they had to 'shut down' a major north/south highway during rush hour on the North (affluent) side of Chicago to make sure the North side felt their pain. This cost the city several hundred thousand dollars as well as endless police coverage since the activists threatened to also invade Wrigley Field.

This weekend was Lollapalooza, a massive music festival drawing well over 100,000, mostly young.

Finally, the micro gang nature of Chicago leads itself to the very petty gang battles. One gang member can make a rap video dissing another gang on YouTube and thus the other gang feels like they have to respond. The turf wars can get amplified when police, that have been working non stop since Thursday since the Lake Shore Drive shutdown are trying to empty Lollapalooza on a Sunday which leaves gang members open season on Sunday night.
Cite that the protest, or music had anything to do with gang murders. That protest was largely about begging for help in the poor areas that are ignored due to institutional racism.

Clue: This is the result of our "war on drugs"

Last edited by rat avatar; 08-07-2018 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:10 PM
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My understanding is there are 2 big factors in this problem.

1. The police cracked down on the big gangs, arresting their leaders. This caused the gangs to splinter into a bunch of smaller gangs who went to war with each other.

2. The city tore down the low income, high crime housing areas like Cabrini-green. The residents were then spread throughout the city. The goal was to hope that a middle class surrounding would reduce crime among the old residents, but what may have happened is now hardened criminals are spread all over the city and are starting up smaller gangs.

So basically those 2 things resulted in a large number of small gangs, rather than a small number of large gangs. And those small gangs are all fighting over territory.
Number 2 is what I said was going to happen when they announced way back they were going to do it ...And all the gangs established in other places are fighting back against the newcomers making it the 1920s all over again

Only way its gonna stop is if an al Capone type shows up bringing everyone together or killing all who opposes him and his...


Sad thing is Chicago is now an example on why you keep the "projects" around instead of tearing them down and making something better ...aka "lets keep the rats in their cage "
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:10 PM
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They're not nearly as strict next door in Indiana, the primary source of Chicago guns.

Just one problem among many, yes, but one that can be addressed.
Sure, that's always the excuse. When gun control laws dont work (and in the USA, they never do) it's always because the next area over is sending in guns. If we had tight border to border Federal controls, it be blamed on Mexico and Canada.
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:17 PM
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Why? Ok, how about this.

What is wrong with Indiana gun laws?

A) No required background check when purchasing a firearm from a private seller at a gun show or on the internet.
B) No limit to the number of guns purchased at any time.

So, a "banger" with numerous arrests and prison time drives to Indiana with a suitcase full of cash. He buys as many guns as he wants, hands over the untraceable cash, and drives back to Chicago. He sells them out of the trunk of his car to any and every "banger" he meets. Result: Chicago is full of illegal, untraceable guns that are being used on a daily basis.
That has been going on for decades … in fact in the 80s the federal law enforcement had set up shop in several gun stores just to bust people from Detroit and Chicago


There used to be huge signs in some of the Indiana gun shops that said in huge letters " we do not sell to anyone who does not have an Indiana id 6-12 months old "
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:27 PM
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They're not nearly as strict next door in Indiana, the primary source of Chicago guns.

Just one problem among many, yes, but one that can be addressed.
It may be addressed, however much all the people with Confederate flags on their trucks don't want to see it addressed. Indianapolis' murder rate has risen every year for I-don't-know how many years. Since I've been paying attention, at least, and I've been living here seven or eight years. And the murders the last few years have not been confined to the "bad" areas of town, where the people who manage to get to the polls can't keep ignoring them. And, more importantly, the rise in murder can be attributed to gun murders. We haven't had a strangler or axe murderer on the loose skewing the statistics. We haven't even had a rash of fatal bar fights or wife-beatings, or anything. We've had fatal shootings. Also a rise in non-fatal shooting.

And, we had a school shooting. And it was up north, not in one of the places you'd predict a school shooting (well, where most people would predict it; personally, I'd say it's a dice roll). No one was killed, so it probably didn't make the national news, but people around here were pretty shaken.

There's been a lot of talk locally about what to do. Most of it has been idle wind, but people will eventually realize that there's a connection between the lax gun laws and the shootings.

For example, you aren't supposed to be able to get a carry permit if you have been diagnosed with a mental illness, but the check for this means when you fill out an application for a gun permit, you just check a box that says "No," you've never been diagnosed with a mental illness. There's no database of people diagnosed with mental illnesses, so there's nothing to check it against, and they just take your word for it. Oh, they say they will prosecute you for perjury if you lie, but no one really believes anything will happen to them, and the truth is that it probably won't. The worst they would do is take away your permit-- but not your gun.
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:27 PM
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Maybe there needs to be a border wall between Illinois and Indiana. Maybe someone else will pay for it. Hey it could happen. Call Mexico and see how to pay for it, oh, wait nevermind, that was a big ol' lie.

Last edited by Beckdawrek; 08-07-2018 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:42 PM
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Few of the reasons given are completely without merit but most of them fall far short of plausibility in explaining the whole situation, and trend, particularly the upswing in recent years (although down again moderately just in last couple of years).

The 'guns from Indiana' one is among the weaker ones. There isn't any city in the US with an effective way of preventing guns coming in from relatively nearby states with looser gun laws. And 'nearby' doesn't have to be a few miles given the value of illegal guns and the transportation network of the US. One can't say there's no effect of Indiana being so close (say compared to PA or Southern states on the I-95 corridor v NY) but it's gotta be pretty small.

Basic demographics are one reason if comparing to NY. People especially from Chicago like to think of it as somehow comparable to NY though it hardly is in any major way, murder or otherwise. NY is more of an immigrant city. Even the much smaller 'African American' % in NY includes a lot of immigrants and kids of immigrants rather than blacks with deep roots in the US. For whatever reasons, murder is a particular affliction of African American communities as in the descendants of the freed people more than recent immigrants of African descent. NY also includes in its boundaries more of what would be inner suburbs in other cities, and has a bigger mass of rich people in the heart of the city than any other US city.

But some of it seems to be peculiar to Chicago's PD or interaction of Chicago's particular local culture to the PD. The most shocking stat in the recent weekend of 70-some (I believe the total is up to now) people shot, 11 killed is *no* arrests last I heard. The capability of the CPD and its method of interaction with the public must have room for improvement for that to happen. The good news is that must be improvable by the Chicago city govt, to some degree at least, if the political will is there, though the latter is a big if.

Last edited by Corry El; 08-07-2018 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:09 PM
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But some of it seems to be peculiar to Chicago's PD or interaction of Chicago's particular local culture to the PD. The most shocking stat in the recent weekend of 70-some (I believe the total is up to now) people shot, 11 killed is *no* arrests last I heard. The capability of the CPD and its method of interaction with the public must have room for improvement for that to happen.
Without a doubt, many Chicago residents -- particularly African-Americans -- don't have much trust in the CPD. And, that's for understandable, and long-running, reasons.

One example is a now-infamous CPD commander, Jon Burge. For several decades, Burge tortured, and oversaw the torture of, numerous suspects (particularly African-Americans and Hispanics) to extract confessions. Despite the fact that Burge's crimes were uncovered in the early 1990s, and he was fired from CPD in 1993, he and his actions still regularly appear on the news, since the city is still dealing with lawsuits filed by his victims.

In recent years, the city has had several instances of questionable use of deadly force by CPD officers against African-Americans, such as the Laquan McDonald shooting.

It's hard to tell if it's the result of that mistrust, or if it's fear of retaliation from gang members (I suspect it's more than a little of both), but it does seem like the CPD has a hard time getting witnesses to come forward on these shootings.
  #38  
Old 08-07-2018, 03:55 PM
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Guns are a distraction, you have a large population that has zero access to the legal system due to the drug trade and mistrust of the police due to racial and socioeconomic reasons.

While the body count may drop they would just resort to other forms of retribution as the problem is primarily due to the drug war. Really they will just start stealing guns as there are so many firearms in circulation anyway. While we are not perfect over here in Seattle, focusing on harm reduction, treatment and other methods has helped reduce the violence.

Quit using the stick and start trying to use a carrot with drug policy if you want to save lives here and abroad.

You simply have an organized crime problem.

Last edited by rat avatar; 08-07-2018 at 03:57 PM.
  #39  
Old 08-07-2018, 04:12 PM
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Guns are a distraction, you have a large population that has zero access to the legal system due to the drug trade and mistrust of the police due to racial and socioeconomic reasons.

While the body count may drop they would just resort to other forms of retribution as the problem is primarily due to the drug war. Really they will just start stealing guns as there are so many firearms in circulation anyway. While we are not perfect over here in Seattle, focusing on harm reduction, treatment and other methods has helped reduce the violence.

Quit using the stick and start trying to use a carrot with drug policy if you want to save lives here and abroad.

You simply have an organized crime problem.
Yes, there are just as many guns in every other big US city, but less crime. Chicago does have stricter gun controls than most, and no doubt, guns do come in from other areas. But in areas where they can just walk down and buy those guns, the violent crime rate isnt that bad.

Dallas, San Antionio & Houston, where guns are very available, have about half the murder rate of Chicago. Nevada & Arizona have just about the easiest gun laws- but a murder rate in LV or Phoenix of 1/3 that of the Windy City.

To be fair, Los Angeles and NYC have fairly strict gun laws but are also quite a bit lower than Chicago.


So, it aint the guns. It's Chicago- Chicago has the highest murder rate of any 1MM+ pop city in the USA.

If anything, Chicago stands as a dismal failure of Gun Control laws. But one can point to LA & NYC as mild successes, so I am trying to be balanced here. What the difference is that LA & NYC both have fine professional police forces.
  #40  
Old 08-07-2018, 04:14 PM
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To be clear, I am not in the camp that says that gun control has no value, just that it won't solve this problem.
  #41  
Old 08-07-2018, 04:43 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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To be clear, I am not in the camp that says that gun control has no value, just that it won't solve this problem.
I can get behind some mild gun controls that do not go against the 2nd Ad.
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Old 08-07-2018, 04:51 PM
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I can get behind some mild gun controls that do not go against the 2nd Ad.
My concerns are related to the other amendments and sections to be honest.

But it is a bit insane that people don't realize that being a large population being divested from the legal system can lead to violence.

I am not arguing for 100% legal drugs but Chicago's gang violence wouldn't happen or would be rare if those parties had access to the legal system for disputes.

Last edited by rat avatar; 08-07-2018 at 04:51 PM.
  #43  
Old 08-07-2018, 10:09 PM
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Why? Ok, how about this.

What is wrong with Indiana gun laws?

A) No required background check when purchasing a firearm from a private seller at a gun show or on the internet.
B) No limit to the number of guns purchased at any time.

So, a "banger" with numerous arrests and prison time drives to Indiana with a suitcase full of cash. He buys as many guns as he wants, hands over the untraceable cash, and drives back to Chicago. He sells them out of the trunk of his car to any and every "banger" he meets. Result: Chicago is full of illegal, untraceable guns that are being used on a daily basis.
So why isn’t Indiana’s gun homicide rate equivalent to Chicago’s?
  #44  
Old 08-07-2018, 11:52 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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So why isn’t Indiana’s gun homicide rate equivalent to Chicago’s?
The per capita homicide rate in Indianapolis is about the same as Chicago.

https://www.nwitimes.com/news/nation...a10fc60.html#4
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  #45  
Old 08-08-2018, 03:03 AM
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"What are the particular factors that make Chicago weirdly violent?"

Endemic corruption at every level of government, business and religious institutions.
How does corruption in Chicago's religious institutions lead to violence?
  #46  
Old 08-08-2018, 07:17 AM
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How many of those over 300 people were black?
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I do not understand how this answers my question.
There are long-standing socio-economic and racial patterns in Chicago that have long contributed to the crime rate overall, let alone the murder rate.

A disproportionate number of people shot every day in Chicago, and a disproportionate number killed, are black. The violence is not spread evenly over the city, it's heavily concentrated in neighborhoods that are either black or brown and poor. Places like Hyde Park, Lincoln Park, and the East Side are still pretty safe where you are unlikely to be shot either accidentally or deliberately. Meanwhile, in the past week two guys doing repairs on a house were shot and one killed when they decided to stop for lunch and took a seat on the lawn - collateral damage in a suspected gang shooting.
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
My WAG as a non-Chicago-er: Demoralized, corrupt and/or ineffective police, a lot of gang wars, lots of guns available despite strict laws, and also that a city that is known for violence, tends to be a crime magnet and attract or feed violence (although some places, like LA and NY, have successfully turned the tide on such reputations).
Another factor that everyone is forgetting is that this past weekend was HOT. Hot and humid, and in poor neighborhoods a lot of people either don't have air conditioning or have inadequate air conditioning. That contributes to short tempers, violence, and crime. It wasn't a primary cause, but it was a factor.

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What are the stats on Detroit...just curious?
Using this chart from Wikipedia with stats from 2015 and presuming the vast majority of murders are with guns...

Chicago is 23 per 100,000
Detroit is 43 per 100,000

Of course, Chicago has a lot more people than Detroit so in absolute numbers more people die of gun violence in Chicago than in Detroit.

At that, Detroit is only third on that list (top is St. Louis, Missouri and second is Baltimore, Maryland) and between Detroit and Chicago you have, in order, New Orleans, Newark, Milwaukee, and Washington DC.

So, as bad as Chicago may be, it's not the most hazardous city to live in. But since it has a larger population over all the raw numbers for Chicago are higher. There may also be other differences in Chicago, such that some neighborhoods bear a disproportionate amount of murder.

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I suppose the question would then be why Chicago has more gangs/gang conflicts or why those conflicts result in more shootings than in other large cities.
It's not just the number or proportion of shootings, it's also where they take place and what the consequences are. The murder clearance rate for the Chicago police department is half that of the national average so people are, literally, getting away with murder. There is long-standing endemic corruption. Wealthy/white areas really do get better policing than poor/brown/black areas.

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Chicago might be a large scale example of those decaying mining towns that used to be great but have been passed over by the world. It might be heading the same way as Detroit.
As someone who had a front seat to watch the decline of Detroit - yes, Chicago is sliding down the same razor blade into the same pit.

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Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
They're not nearly as strict next door in Indiana, the primary source of Chicago guns.

Just one problem among many, yes, but one that can be addressed.
OK, then answer me this - why does Indiana with its lax gun laws and have much lower rates of murder per capita? The only two Indiana cities that make the list I linked to above are Indianapolis and Fort Wayne - Gary, a severely depressed economic black hole sitting right next to Chicago didn't even make the list despite the easy availability of guns.

Shootings are a symptom that something is seriously wrong in Chicago, not a primary cause. The eastern border of Chicago is the Indiana/Illinois state line. Why do the shootings drop the minute you cross State Line Road?

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1. The police cracked down on the big gangs, arresting their leaders. This caused the gangs to splinter into a bunch of smaller gangs who went to war with each other.

2. The city tore down the low income, high crime housing areas like Cabrini-green. The residents were then spread throughout the city. The goal was to hope that a middle class surrounding would reduce crime among the old residents, but what may have happened is now hardened criminals are spread all over the city and are starting up smaller gangs.
Sure.... let's blame the poor, brown people. That's always worked so well in Chicago...

First - gangs in Chicago were never just in the projects. Do you think Al Capone lived in a project? When gang leaders got enough cash they moved themselves and their families to a better place whether they were white, brown, or black.

Second - a LOT of people displaced by tearing down the projects didn't just go to other places in the city, they went to the suburbs. The suburbs are not drowning in blood, so why Chicago proper? (This echoes the Detroit Problem - Detroit lost 5/6 of its population. So where did they go? The suburbs. But while there was some crime rise from that the Detroit suburbs never got anywhere near as bad as the city proper. So it's not just a Chicago thing. It's a large-city-going-down-the-shitter thing.)

Third - who do you think is buying all those drugs that are funding this violence? Hint: it ain't the poor locals, they don't have enough money to account for all this. Folks from the wealthy neighborhoods buy their drugs (and their guns) from the cesspit neighborhoods but somehow you almost never hear about wealthy folks getting busted. The money to fund all this is coming from neighborhoods with money that get decent policing then smugly tell themselves they're better than where they do their shopping.

Fourth - as I mentioned, this weekend was HOT. Hot and humid. That means more crime, it always has. That was a factor in this weekend's carnage.

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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
For those of you who don't live here, and just hear about "more shootings in Chicago": most areas of the city are, in fact, very safe. However, in the neighborhoods where the shootings are concentrated, it's a massive issue, and I can't even begin to comprehend how unnerving it must be to live in a neighborhood where shootings are a frequent occurrence.
^ This.

It's not that Chicago overall is a warzone, but certain parts of the city are. If you stay out of those neighborhoods you're relatively safe... but it's hell for those who live in those neighborhoods.

We recently had a thread there where a poster who lives in Chicago was frothing at the mouth over being inconvenienced one rush hour by people from those neighborhoods protesting the bloodbath - one of his responses was basically oh, those people are inconveniencing me? Let's take away the police from their neighborhoods and all the other city services, that'll show 'em! Regrettably, this is not an isolated phenomena. In fact, it's been the response for decades every time those uppity folks on the south and west side complained about crime and/or police abuse. The result is people not trusting the police and a soaring crime rate. And other people are still calling for removing the police from these neighborhoods.

What did they think the result of all this would be?

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Originally Posted by Jasmine View Post
Why? Ok, how about this.

What is wrong with Indiana gun laws?

A) No required background check when purchasing a firearm from a private seller at a gun show or on the internet.
B) No limit to the number of guns purchased at any time.

So, a "banger" with numerous arrests and prison time drives to Indiana with a suitcase full of cash. He buys as many guns as he wants, hands over the untraceable cash, and drives back to Chicago. He sells them out of the trunk of his car to any and every "banger" he meets. Result: Chicago is full of illegal, untraceable guns that are being used on a daily basis.
So why isn't Lake and Porter county Indiana, right next door to Chicago and linked economically and socially to Chicago, not full of "illegal, untraceable guns that are being used on a daily basis"? If anything, the economy is worse in Lake County, Indiana than in Chicago proper. There are drugs and gangs in Lake County, IN. Why isn't the crime/murder rate comparable? Same for the Chicago suburbs, which while not having as lax gun laws as Indiana still have readily available guns and also have the lack of background checks for private sales and gun shows?

If a human being posts here with dire problems and blames everyone else for their problem what do we tell them? So... what should we tell Chicago, which blames their gun problem on everyone around them?

It's not JUST the guns - other places have just as many guns, but they don't have as many guns or murders, not even places right next door with the same economic, political, and racial problems.

Yes, there is something rotten in the heart of Chicago itself, and it's not just that there are poor people of color there - as I said, plenty of other places have the same folks without the same level of problems. The poor non-white are a convenient scapegoat, just like "lax Indiana gun laws" and "the economy". The same excuses are made, the same parties are blamed, and nothing changes. Maybe it's time to look at other parts of the city, and how decisions are made there.

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Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
Thursday: A group of very minor activists decided that they had to 'shut down' a major north/south highway during rush hour on the North (affluent) side of Chicago to make sure the North side felt their pain. This cost the city several hundred thousand dollars as well as endless police coverage since the activists threatened to also invade Wrigley Field.
If the city of Chicago is so jacked up that policing what was essentially a parade is going to lead the rest of the city so naked that two days later there's a blood bath then the city has serious endemic problems that go beyond just "micro-gangs" as you put it.

I lived in Chicago itself for 15 years and the area for 20 more. Oddly enough, most of that time the city could manage multiple festivals and parades on a weekend involving hundreds of thousands of people without descending into a warzone level of death and maiming. Why can't it manage to do that anymore?

Your response, dalej42, was to strip even more police and resources from the south and west sides. How do you think that will help? It's as if you called 911 and the response was "don't bother us - not only are we not coming out to help you, we're turning off the street lights and your water service. Keep complaining that your children are dying and we'll really make your life unpleasant." As if it wasn't already.

The protest earlier in the week had NOTHING to do with the bloodbath over the weekend. The police for the LSD protest did not stand around the road and Wrigley field for two days after the protest ended. That's ridiculous. That's you looking for a scapegoat and blaming the usual suspects. How is that working out for your city?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rat avatar View Post
Cite that the protest, or music had anything to do with gang murders. That protest was largely about begging for help in the poor areas that are ignored due to institutional racism.

Clue: This is the result of our "war on drugs"
Also decades of racial bias in the city, and decades of corruption in running that city.
  #47  
Old 08-08-2018, 08:23 AM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is online now
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Ah, yes. The one thing worse than organized crime, disorganized crime.
I know you're being flip with this, but it contains a significant truth. Organized gang behavior is essentially top-down authoritarian and fascistic. Disorganized gang behavior is more anarchic and warlord-like. The competition creates a more violent, impulsive response-set that leads to more shootings.

Honestly, what's being reported reminds me of Washington DC in the 90s. For those not paying attention, DC was downright dangerous. We had people being executed - not drive-bys and such but actually made to kneel and executed - in the Starbucks. While there were good and bad neighborhoods there was no place really safe from violence. I challenge anyone who wants to point to Rahm Emmanuel for corruption to top having your long-time mayor arrested after being videotaped smoking crack with a 'model' in terms of how entirely fucked-up a city can become.
  #48  
Old 08-08-2018, 08:49 AM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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So why isn’t Indiana’s gun homicide rate equivalent to Chicago’s?
It basically is in Indianapolis and South Bend and it's far higher in Gary.
  #49  
Old 08-08-2018, 08:56 AM
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Ah, yes. The one thing worse than organized crime, disorganized crime.
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
I know you're being flip with this, but it contains a significant truth.
And it was damn funny!
  #50  
Old 08-08-2018, 09:09 AM
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It basically is in Indianapolis and South Bend and it's far higher in Gary.
No, actually, Indianapolis and Fort Wayne, not South Bend. Gary didn't make the list.

Now, Gary does have a high crime rate but, like Detroit, the city flushed its population. There are a lot fewer people in Gary, therefore, the raw numbers of people shot are far lower. Even so, it's like the situation in Chicago - Gary is a "hot spot" (or rather, certain neighborhoods in Gary are, some neighborhoods like Miller Beach and Black Oak are actually relatively safe, and even Glen Park, which I live a couple blocks from, is not a shooting gallery). The rest of the county is awash with guns, but not awash with gun violence. Why is that? Why the "hot spots"?
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