Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-12-2018, 06:24 PM
Leaffan's Avatar
Leaffan Leaffan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 23,421
Moon landing deniers: why?

I subscribe to a few science threads on Facebook. I also tend to read NASA and space-related stories in the media.

Whenever there's a discussion about the moon landings, without a doubt, within 10 posts someone will deny that the moon landings were real.

I honestly don't get it. Some basic research, like one hour maximum, will tell you all you need to know about the Apollo missions.

400,000 people working directly or indirectly for NASA would to have remained silent to this day. Other technologically advanced nations: UK, Soviet Union, Canada, Australia, etc. would have to have been in on it. In fact some of the transmissions were routed through Australia's Parkes Observatory radio telescope when the moon was facing the southern hemisphere.

Why? What do these uneducated, ill-informed people get out of denying what is probably the most significant technological achievement of mankind?

In other words: how fucking stupid do you need to be to dismiss this achievement?
  #2  
Old 08-12-2018, 06:29 PM
Ambivalid's Avatar
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In my head
Posts: 13,124
Whats the end game? What do they theorize is the motivation behind the "faking" of the moom landing? It makes about as much sense to me as Flat Earthers. Lets just say they are right. Then what? Whats the fucking point?

Last edited by Ambivalid; 08-12-2018 at 06:30 PM.
  #3  
Old 08-12-2018, 06:34 PM
GoodOmens GoodOmens is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,118
The point is that they get to feel special, and wise, and better than everyone else, but simultaneously victimized by a system which keeps them down.
  #4  
Old 08-12-2018, 06:37 PM
Smudge777 Smudge777 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 40
I think it's fairly likely that the majority of moon landing deniers on the internet ... are just playing/trolling.

As for "Lets just say they are right. Then what? Whats the fucking point?", I think the answer is that it would demonstrate a large-scale, top-level mass-disinformation conspiracy. And that would immediately lend credence to a whole host of other similar conspiracy theories.
  #5  
Old 08-12-2018, 06:46 PM
betterlifethroughchemistry betterlifethroughchemistry is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 506
Two words: Flat Earthers...OK, I would it's some stupidity ("behavior that shows a lack of good sense or judgment"), some ignorance ("lack of knowledge"), a good dose of conspiratorial thought and a dangerous amount of contrariness, i.e., some people are going to scream X when Y has been proven over and over again simply to disagree loudly...and if you've ever worked in a large corporation or organization, you've seen the type......at every other meeting...

I put it in the same category as the "Flat Earth" believers, there are far more issues to worry about or waste time on, people ain't gonna learn what they don't want to know...

I feel your pain. One of my BILs is a Flat Earther, he's a great guy, actually intelligent and well-spoken, he posts videos and has a following on YouTube, but he'll never bring it up to me as he knows the discussion will not end well for him...we're convinced he's got a little need to be followed and adored, and that's why he does it...because there is no other logical explanation we can come up with and 'deranged' doesn't fit him...
  #6  
Old 08-12-2018, 06:47 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Displaced
Posts: 15,328
Exactly, Smudge777, it is a way to continue to sow distrust of official or "established" sources. Being relentless at this even on such matters is yet more repetition of how any information that comes from government, institutional science/academia, or the mainstream press, must be under suspicion; especially if it's something you cannot "get" at a "gut level".
  #7  
Old 08-12-2018, 06:56 PM
Ambivalid's Avatar
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In my head
Posts: 13,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOmens View Post
The point is that they get to feel special, and wise, and better than everyone else, but simultaneously victimized by a system which keeps them down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge777 View Post
I think it's fairly likely that the majority of moon landing deniers on the internet ... are just playing/trolling.

As for "Lets just say they are right. Then what? Whats the fucking point?", I think the answer is that it would demonstrate a large-scale, top-level mass-disinformation conspiracy. And that would immediately lend credence to a whole host of other similar conspiracy theories.
What i mean is, how do they legitimize these notions of large-scale conspiracies? I know what the point is as far as what it does for the conspiracy theorists themselves. But seemingly at least they want to appear to have a valid story explaining their conspiracy that legitimizes their nuttery. So why/what reason is behind the mass scale conspiracy for these things? Why is the government doing it? What is the reason these buffoons are giving for these conspiracies? If they want credence for their conspiracy they must have a (at least to them) plausible story explaining why such secret goverment plots exist, in addition to just asserting that they do in fact exist at all.
  #8  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:22 PM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 43,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOmens View Post
The point is that they get to feel special, and wise, and better than everyone else, but simultaneously victimized by a system which keeps them down.
I think this is it exactly. They may have shit jobs, but they know more than the sheeple who believe the evil government and the evil scientists.
The scientists who get all that money for basically nothing, and so will lie to keep the fat paychecks rolling in.

No chicks for free, alas.
  #9  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:22 PM
Robot Arm Robot Arm is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Medford, MA
Posts: 23,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
What i mean is, how do they legitimize these notions of large-scale conspiracies? I know what the point is as far as what it does for the conspiracy theorists themselves. But seemingly at least they want to appear to have a valid story explaining their conspiracy that legitimizes their nuttery. So why/what reason is behind the mass scale conspiracy for these things? Why is the government doing it? What is the reason these buffoons are giving for these conspiracies? If they want credence for their conspiracy they must have a (at least to them) plausible story explaining why such secret goverment plots exist, in addition to just asserting that they do in fact exist at all.
Why did the government send troops to Vietnam, try to kill Castro with an exploding cigar, or withhold treatment from syphilis patients? Kennedy set the challenge of landing a man on the moon*, and later governments certainly played up the prestige of having done so. I can see that some officials would want to brag about an achievement like that, even if they had to fake it.

But it does bring up a weakness that I rarely hear mentioned about conspiracy theories. Most such conspiracies are described much like the plot of a movie; all the conspirators have to do is take one small action to kick things off and the whole chain of events plays out just how they want. Real life isn't like that. What if Oswald got stopped on his way to the book depository? What if he couldn't get away from his co-workers when the motorcade was due? What if someone found his rifle? What if he got arrested and told everything about who put him up to it? The conspiracy always tries to explain what did happen, but a real-life conspiracy would have to be ready for all the things that could have happened. Or conspirers are the luckiest people on Earth; all the random, chaotic events always happen just right for the conspiracy to succeed.


* And returning him safely to the Earth. Good bit of foresight on Kennedy's part, that.
  #10  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:25 PM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 43,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
What i mean is, how do they legitimize these notions of large-scale conspiracies? I know what the point is as far as what it does for the conspiracy theorists themselves. But seemingly at least they want to appear to have a valid story explaining their conspiracy that legitimizes their nuttery. So why/what reason is behind the mass scale conspiracy for these things? Why is the government doing it? What is the reason these buffoons are giving for these conspiracies? If they want credence for their conspiracy they must have a (at least to them) plausible story explaining why such secret goverment plots exist, in addition to just asserting that they do in fact exist at all.
What I've pieced together, though I'm no expert, is that the government after promising to land a man on the moon found out that radiation belts made it impossible, and so it had to be faked so the government people wouldn't lose face and authority.
The conspiracy had to get more complicated to explain all the later moon shots - never quite understood why they think the government didn't stop after
Apollo XI.
  #11  
Old 08-12-2018, 08:37 PM
Enola Gay Enola Gay is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2,107
Same reason for all conspiracy theorists: they like to think they are smarter than everyone else. The CIA killed Kennedy & 9/11 was an inside job
  #12  
Old 08-12-2018, 08:50 PM
betterlifethroughchemistry betterlifethroughchemistry is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enola Gay View Post
Same reason for all conspiracy theorists: they like to think they are smarter than everyone else. The CIA killed Kennedy & 9/11 was an inside job
I KNEW IT! Our lab manager and I attended a conference in Dallas several years ago that was held just a few blocks away from Dealey Plaza. Being a history freak and having read several books on the JFK assassination, we did the whole Dealey Plaza walk around (including having my picture taken on the third 'X' - gotta wait for the light to be red). We also did the "The Man on the Sixth Floor" museum - at the end of the taped tour is a whole discussion of the conspiracy which ends with the director talking about how, before he became director, he had some concerns, but after going through all the evidence and living it, he had no doubt: Ostwald acted alone...

Sorry for the hijack, please resume the fake moon landing discussion...
  #13  
Old 08-12-2018, 08:52 PM
Muffin Muffin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Great White North
Posts: 20,246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaffan View Post
In other words: how fucking stupid do you need to be to dismiss this achievement?
Something a bit less than 0.0025695753435614 astronomical units.
  #14  
Old 08-12-2018, 08:56 PM
Ambivalid's Avatar
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In my head
Posts: 13,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enola Gay View Post
Same reason for all conspiracy theorists: they like to think they are smarter than everyone else. The CIA killed Kennedy & 9/11 was an inside job
All these responses (other than voyager's and robot arm's) are ignoring the "why" of the conspiracy, from the perspective of the supposed perpetrators (usually the goverment). That is the confusing unanawered question. I think Robot Arm came the closest to anything that made any sort of sense.
  #15  
Old 08-12-2018, 09:31 PM
Leaffan's Avatar
Leaffan Leaffan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 23,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enola Gay View Post
Same reason for all conspiracy theorists: they like to think they are smarter than everyone else. The CIA killed Kennedy & 9/11 was an inside job
Yeah, but this conspiracy isn't the same. There's lots of film over many years conclusively showing none of these missions were possibly faked.

Not just a clip here, or a clip there. There's probably hundreds of hours of footage.

I don't get it.
  #16  
Old 08-12-2018, 09:35 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 78,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOmens View Post
The point is that they get to feel special, and wise, and better than everyone else, but simultaneously victimized by a system which keeps them down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enola Gay View Post
Same reason for all conspiracy theorists: they like to think they are smarter than everyone else. The CIA killed Kennedy & 9/11 was an inside job
I agree with this. People want to feel smart. Being smart in the normal sense takes a lot of work; you have to spend years learning things and even when you're done, you're always going to be encountering people who know more than you do.

Being a conspiracy theorist bypasses all this. You can "learn" something by just reading a single book. Or even watching a video if you're too lazy to read a book. And the best part is that once you know the conspiracy theory, you're ahead of everyone who doesn't know the theory.

You encounter some guy who's spend thirty years studying 20th century history and obviously knows the subject better than you do? No problem. You just dismiss everything he knows as part of a cover story and tell him you know the real history of what happened: "Oh, you think World War II was about economic competition and population demographics? That's just what they want you to think. Wake up. It was all a plot by the reptilians who are secretly running the world."
  #17  
Old 08-12-2018, 09:42 PM
guizot guizot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: An East Hollywood dingbat
Posts: 8,037
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
All these responses (other than voyager's and robot arm's) are ignoring the "why" of the conspiracy, from the perspective of the supposed perpetrators (usually the goverment). That is the confusing unanawered question. I think Robot Arm came the closest to anything that made any sort of sense.
They usually have some kind of explanation for the government's motivation, but that really is almost secondary, and they don't focus on that so much. The things that really appeal to them are: one, the movie-like narrative, as Robert Arm points out; and two, the self-appointed superiority of knowing something that the sheeple don't know, as GoodOmens describes.

They're both forms of gratification, (that have nothing to do with wanting to learn the truth.) And it's not just over-the-top conspiracy theorist that are fueled by gratification, instead of a desire to learn. Right-wing talk radio in general appeals to the gratification of self-righteous recreational outrage, so it really is entertaining people, rather than informing them. Alex Jones is just the most extreme (though logical) result of this industry of gratification mongering.
  #18  
Old 08-12-2018, 09:45 PM
TriPolar TriPolar is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rhode island
Posts: 39,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaffan View Post
Yeah, but this conspiracy isn't the same. There's lots of film over many years conclusively showing none of these missions were possibly faked.

Not just a clip here, or a clip there. There's probably hundreds of hours of footage.

I don't get it.
CTs seem to fixate on denial evidence and ignore the rest of it. They'll say "If that one picture is faked then all of them could be faked". They don't even need proof that one picture is fake to dismiss the whole lot either, they magnify the significance of any perceived anomaly to disqualify any amount of proof. With that reasoning it becomes impossible for them to ever accept that anyone ever landed on the moon, that it wasn't a conspiracy.
  #19  
Old 08-12-2018, 09:56 PM
betterlifethroughchemistry betterlifethroughchemistry is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I agree with this. People want to feel smart. Being smart in the normal sense takes a lot of work; you have to spend years learning things and even when you're done, you're always going to be encountering people who know more than you do.[/I]
And if you are in any discipline that requires a degree or two, or at least critical thinking and the ability to learn concrete scientific concepts, you not only wonder if you will encounter people smarter and more knowledgeable than you, you expect it...

As I alluded to earlier about my BIL the Flat Earther, one of the reasons he never mentions it to me as I answered a FB post he put up on the subject, posted a couple of pictures I took over the Pacific on a flight to Asia where the curvature of the Earth was apparent, addressed their issues with gravity only to be bombarded by a poster saying, and I'm paraphrasing, "Oh, so you believe all that complicated NASA math that NO ONE understands, you are a FOOL if you buy that mumbo-jumbo", I said, "It's Physics 101...have you every taken a college level physics course? Maybe two? How about three? Just because you've never taken the time to understand it doesn't mean it's incomprehensible."...and I got crickets...
  #20  
Old 08-12-2018, 09:57 PM
Robot Arm Robot Arm is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Medford, MA
Posts: 23,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
All these responses (other than voyager's and robot arm's) are ignoring the "why" of the conspiracy, from the perspective of the supposed perpetrators (usually the goverment). That is the confusing unanawered question. I think Robot Arm came the closest to anything that made any sort of sense.
Actually, I think I could have written my post a lot better. Two points:

1. The government has done all kinds of things that seem to make little or no sense. That some fictional thing they're alleged to have done seems pointless doesn't really make it any more or less credible. (Although I am reminded of something I heard once, that fiction is harder to write than non-fiction because fiction has to make sense.)

2. There have been real benefits to having put men on the moon. The U.S. has been a scientific and technological leader for the last few decades, and has reaped the economic benefits. I think some of that can be traced back to the space program. Students were inspired to study science. They graduated and went on to start companies that produced microchips, software, digital electronics, and a host of other things. And we've attracted brilliant, talented people from all over the world to come and contribute to that. Now, I don't think the people who (allegedly) faked the moon landing could have even imagined such things would result from their hoax, but it would have been a brilliant reason to do it.
  #21  
Old 08-12-2018, 10:13 PM
Ambivalid's Avatar
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In my head
Posts: 13,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
CTs seem to fixate on denial evidence and ignore the rest of it. They'll say "If that one picture is faked then all of them could be faked". They don't even need proof that one picture is fake to dismiss the whole lot either, they magnify the significance of any perceived anomaly to disqualify any amount of proof. With that reasoning it becomes impossible for them to ever accept that anyone ever landed on the moon, that it wasn't a conspiracy.
"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." They just take out three little measly letters of that sentence, it's not such a big leap. C'mon.
  #22  
Old 08-13-2018, 03:26 AM
GreenWyvern's Avatar
GreenWyvern GreenWyvern is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 961
"Really, the comforting side in most conspiracy theory arguments is the one claiming that anyone who's in power has any plan at all."
xkcd
  #23  
Old 08-13-2018, 04:14 AM
Nava Nava is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hey! I'm located! WOOOOW!
Posts: 39,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge777 View Post
I think it's fairly likely that the majority of moon landing deniers on the internet ... are just playing/trolling.
The one dude I saw do it irl was trying to sound smart with that "question everything, never believe whatever you've been told without testing" attitude which I've seen answered with "ok, would you like to test if arsenic is good for you?"

There's times a questioning attitude is laudable or even necessary and times it's proof of imbecility. And there's people who can't tell those times apart.
__________________
Life ain't peaches and cream, but sometimes it's laughing your ass off when you have no ass. - WhyNot
  #24  
Old 08-13-2018, 07:40 AM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: the extreme center
Posts: 29,993
Come now.

All of this so-called "evidence" supporting a moon landing comes from the government, government-approved sources and the mass media. No truly independent scientists vouch for it (any you could find are undoubtedly shills and trolls).

Our common sense and revealing photos trump your "science".
  #25  
Old 08-13-2018, 07:43 AM
Filbert Filbert is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenWyvern View Post
"Really, the comforting side in most conspiracy theory arguments is the one claiming that anyone who's in power has any plan at all."
xkcd
Yup. Pretty sure that's a large part of it: to a lot of people, living in a world controlled by some shady cabal/evil reptilians/whatever, something that could possibly be defeated is more comforting that the idea that there's not really anyone in control, there is no plan, it's just people trying to muddle through with varying levels of sense, ignorance and personal goals.

The plan the shadowy figures have to subvert our collective destiny may be evil, but if we can defeat it, the problem's sorted, the world is fixed. If we're all just bumbling along squabbling about everything and the world's problems are basically because because we're all just upright monkeys and no-one truly knows what's going on, how is that fixable?

I think the weird conspiracy stuff is kind of a variant on the Just World fallacy; people aren't getting what they really deserve, but it's only because of them, whoever they are. Of course they don't just convince people the world's flat or the moon landings aren't real, they're controlling society in subtle ways too, and anyone who's discovered the truth is going to be on their target list, so any crap that happens to those who uncovered 'the truth' is probably due to them. The big conspiracies are just what believers think is proof of the existence and power of them, whereas the subtle stuff is, well, subtle. Blaming stuff on them is always more comforting than blaming it on yourself, or just on shit happening.

I guess I'd rather people prone to beliefs like that blamed the ills of the world on imaginary shape changing lizards than actual groups of humans at least.
  #26  
Old 08-13-2018, 08:14 AM
Icarus's Avatar
Icarus Icarus is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: In front of my PC, y tu?
Posts: 4,654
This whole thread is arguing details - it's not about details. Pretty much all CTs share the same format. One CT may be about the moon landing, one about 9/11 buildings collapsing, one about the JFK assassination, even the evolution debate. But when you step back they are all the same shape, with the same moving parts. It is useless trying to argue the details.

All of these that I have mentioned are US-centric CTs. I would be curious if CTs exist to the same degree in other countries and cultures, as a common human condition.

IMHO CTs fit into the same brainspace as religion, an attempt to explain the un-explainable. To me a key difference with CTs is, as was described above, just because a CT-er claims something is "too complex" or "unexplainable" doesn't mean someone else hasn't studied and understood the subject and details and has an explanation.
__________________
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
- C. Darwin
  #27  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:05 AM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is online now
Domo Arigato Mister Moderato
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: On the run with Kilroy
Posts: 21,512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I agree with this. People want to feel smart. Being smart in the normal sense takes a lot of work; you have to spend years learning things and even when you're done, you're always going to be encountering people who know more than you do.

Being a conspiracy theorist bypasses all this. You can "learn" something by just reading a single book. Or even watching a video if you're too lazy to read a book. And the best part is that once you know the conspiracy theory, you're ahead of everyone who doesn't know the theory.
I think you guys are close, but I disagree with the basis of your theory.

It's not about people wanting to feel smart. It's about people NOT wanting to feel powerless.

The basics of modern society is the fact that none of us is entirely in control of our lives. We've moved away - for mostly good reasons - from independent production family units into a more isolated and segmented family unit.

So each person is in much less control over their lives. Instead of dad's grandparents, aunts uncles and such we have bosses, police, governmental bureaucracies and so forth in charge. That makes all of us less in charge of our lives to some degree. Those who can't deal with it during their normal course end up attempting to artificially establish control or power by postulating that they're not in charge because of active efforts to keep them down. It's not their fault they're not on top. Admitting that would be silly.

It's the same sort of insecurity that leads bigotry and white supremacy. Those idiots in Charlottesville last year chanting 'Jew will not replace us!' are showing their own fear of their own powerlessness, not any higher aspiration.
  #28  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:27 AM
TriPolar TriPolar is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rhode island
Posts: 39,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post

It's not about people wanting to feel smart. It's about people NOT wanting to feel powerless.
That explains a lot of CT but the moon landing seems different to me. This is one that exposes the malfunctioning minds of the CTs in terms of disregarding facts, obsession, self importance and secret knowledge because the moon landing has no effect on their lives. They are arguing about invisible pink unicorns. Perhaps it is the impossibility of taking them to the moon to see the footprints that makes this attractive, they will never have to see direct evidence that they are wrong with their own eyes, it's the safe conspiracy. Or in this case they are just nuts, unable to reason properly on this subject because it so removed from the real life that all but a few astronauts have experienced.
__________________
ed
  #29  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:30 AM
Horatius Horatius is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
Why is the government doing it? What is the reason these buffoons are giving for these conspiracies? If they want credence for their conspiracy they must have a (at least to them) plausible story explaining why such secret goverment plots exist, in addition to just asserting that they do in fact exist at all.


Well, having acknowledged that the deniers are a group consisting of some mixture of stupid, crazy or trolls, it's no surprise that their posited reasons for the conspiracy are also some mixture of stupid, crazy or trollish, and as such, have the sort of plot holes you'd expect them to have.


Some say we faked the Moon landing just to show up the USSR, as part of the cold war.

Some say we faked it because we realized we couldn't make the end-of-the-decade deadline that Kennedy laid out, and no one wanted to be the guy who told the nation that we'd failed the late President.

Others tie it into the whole Illuminati/New World Order business: the elites are part of some satanic cult, and putting on these events serves some mystical purpose. Some even say that the more blatant the fake is, the better, because they get more mystical power out of getting people to believe obvious BS.

Considering how many of the deniers are obviously insane, I'm sure if you went looking, you could find almost as many such explanations as there are individual deniers.
__________________
Where am I going, and why am I in this handbasket?
  #30  
Old 08-13-2018, 10:51 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: The land of the mouse
Posts: 47,634
Why? Maybe it's just to feel better about themselves. If people really had gone to the moon, they'd have to be a whole lot smarter, understand all this science stuff instead of skipping it in school, more ambitious, just better all around. It may be easier to accept one's own failures in life if all those others' accomplishments were just fake news.
  #31  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:01 AM
Joey P Joey P is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 27,786
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOmens View Post
The point is that they get to feel special, and wise, and better than everyone else, but simultaneously victimized by a system which keeps them down.
I think that's probably the biggest reason. Even if they don't truly believe everything they say, I think many of them are convinced if they say it often enough, more and more people will say 'hmm, you make a good point' and eventually it will be true. Other people, I'm sure believe many CTs regardless.

In the end, if you want to believe that the government adds fluoride to water or uses chemtrails to "control your mind", you're trying to say that you're not responsible for your actions.
  #32  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:12 AM
Hari Seldon Hari Seldon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Trantor
Posts: 11,998
At least its a harmless delusion, unlike the anti-vaxxers (which my GP calls child abuse)_.
  #33  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:21 AM
Gatopescado's Avatar
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: on your last raw nerve
Posts: 19,855
They are Lunatics!
  #34  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:58 AM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,314
Quote:
Originally Posted by betterlifethroughchemistry View Post
Two words: Flat Earthers...OK, I would it's some stupidity ("behavior that shows a lack of good sense or judgment"), some ignorance ("lack of knowledge"), a good dose of conspiratorial thought and a dangerous amount of contrariness, i.e., some people are going to scream X when Y has been proven over and over again simply to disagree loudly...and if you've ever worked in a large corporation or organization, you've seen the type......at every other meeting...

I put it in the same category as the "Flat Earth" believers, there are far more issues to worry about or waste time on, people ain't gonna learn what they don't want to know...

I feel your pain. One of my BILs is a Flat Earther, he's a great guy, actually intelligent and well-spoken, he posts videos and has a following on YouTube, but he'll never bring it up to me as he knows the discussion will not end well for him...we're convinced he's got a little need to be followed and adored, and that's why he does it...because there is no other logical explanation we can come up with and 'deranged' doesn't fit him...
Sorry, no, "deranged" fits him exactly. He is actually deranged, he doesn't just "sort of seem like it" or something. The only issue is, what kind of deranged is it. (for example if he doesn't believe the earth is flat, then there's a deranged reason why he claims to.)

I'm not joking or messing with you.

Last edited by DavidwithanR; 08-13-2018 at 11:59 AM.
  #35  
Old 08-13-2018, 12:02 PM
Gorsnak Gorsnak is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Saskaboom
Posts: 9,007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Seldon View Post
At least its a harmless delusion, unlike the anti-vaxxers (which my GP calls child abuse)_.
It's not entirely harmless. It spreads a distrust of and disdain for science that are detrimental to society.

On another note, Youtube keeps suggesting flat earther videos to me (might have something to do with the fact I occasionally click on them), and yesterday I saw one where the guy "proved" flat earth using Google Maps. You see, he plotted out a 600 mile bicycle trip and Google Maps told him the net elevation change was a mere 10 feet. But over 600 miles there should be 30 miles of drop due to curvature if the round earthers were right!
  #36  
Old 08-13-2018, 12:45 PM
Leaffan's Avatar
Leaffan Leaffan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 23,421
And yet another guy today, on another Facebook post. At first he claimed the deadly Van Allen belts and then this:

"... think about this....
NASA claim the reason we can't go back is because they "lost" all the data and technology from all the missions.
Do you really believe they sent man to the moon from computers with less capabilities than a calculator. ?"

There are plenty of technical articles and YouTube videos explaining the capabilities and construction of the Command and Lunar Module computers. They really didn't need much computing power to accomplish the journey, and what they had was state-of-the-art in the day.

A little critical thinking and and an hour or two of time is all you need to realize how wrong you are.
  #37  
Old 08-13-2018, 05:34 PM
jaycat jaycat is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 917
I think there probably really was a moon landing, but I understand the doubt. The only way we know about it is thru the government and the media, so I think a healthy skepticism is not necessarily out of order.
  #38  
Old 08-13-2018, 05:45 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,314
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycat View Post
I think there probably really was a moon landing, but I understand the doubt. The only way we know about it is thru the government and the media, so I think a healthy skepticism is not necessarily out of order.
Except that's the only way we know about ANYTHING. Are you healthily skeptical whether Trump is president? Bet you haven't been in the Oval Office to check for yourself.
  #39  
Old 08-13-2018, 05:50 PM
Atomic Alex's Avatar
Atomic Alex Atomic Alex is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
What i mean is, how do they legitimize these notions of large-scale conspiracies? I know what the point is as far as what it does for the conspiracy theorists themselves. But seemingly at least they want to appear to have a valid story explaining their conspiracy that legitimizes their nuttery. So why/what reason is behind the mass scale conspiracy for these things? Why is the government doing it? What is the reason these buffoons are giving for these conspiracies? If they want credence for their conspiracy they must have a (at least to them) plausible story explaining why such secret goverment plots exist, in addition to just asserting that they do in fact exist at all.
Possibly relevant, I recently read of a psychological study which suggests the 'conspiracy theory' mentality is a binary-switch, either you're a conspiracy theorist or you aren't.

By this it meant that a conspiracy-theorist doesn't pick and choose, say they believe the moon landing was faked but the Princess Diana crash really was just an accident. Nope they believe every conspiracy theory, it all goes into one big mental jumble in their head.

That also possibly explains why people who are and who aren't conspiracy-theorists have such mutual incomprehension, for one group of people its obvious conspiracy-theories are real, for the other its obvious they aren't.

And count me as someone who is surprised there are so many conspiracy-theorists out there in the real world and not just on the net.
  #40  
Old 08-13-2018, 05:58 PM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 43,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycat View Post
I think there probably really was a moon landing, but I understand the doubt. The only way we know about it is thru the government and the media, so I think a healthy skepticism is not necessarily out of order.
You might as well think that there is probably really a Paris. I was there for the Apollo XVII launch. That was a real Saturn 5. The ground shook. There ain't no way in hell Richard Nixon would spend all that money to enhance Kennedy's legacy.
  #41  
Old 08-13-2018, 06:00 PM
TriPolar TriPolar is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rhode island
Posts: 39,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycat View Post
I think there probably really was a moon landing, but I understand the doubt. The only way we know about it is thru the government and the media, so I think a healthy skepticism is not necessarily out of order.
We know from the astronauts who landed on the moon, and every one at NASA who built the equipment and conducted the mission, tracking the spacecraft as they went to the moon and landed on it. There are thousands of people who watched the spacecraft launches in person, was that just some magic trick? And we have moon rocks and photographs and video of men on the moon. Was the Soviet Union in on the conspiracy? They didn't claim it was a hoax. Was that because they were in on the whole thing because they were our good buddies? And you can reflect a laser off the moon because we left a mirror up there, or is that just because of some random space mirror that landed on the surface of the moon?
  #42  
Old 08-13-2018, 06:02 PM
betterlifethroughchemistry betterlifethroughchemistry is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidwithanR View Post
Sorry, no, "deranged" fits him exactly. He is actually deranged, he doesn't just "sort of seem like it" or something. The only issue is, what kind of deranged is it. (for example if he doesn't believe the earth is flat, then there's a deranged reason why he claims to.)

I'm not joking or messing with you.
Honestly, he would have to admit he doesn't believe the earth is flat - this is a man who served as a meteorologist on an aircraft carrier on multiple overseas deployments...yeah, I know...he's generally pretty easy going, personable and engaging, but, in his videos, he ramps up his personality to convey the message in a well-delivered, concise and well-reasoned way using their crazy sense of reasoning so that, if a well-informed person would watch, they would simply dismiss him as just a silver-tongued snake oil salesman...but, to the true believers, he's a priest, he's someone to follow, they send adoring comments and e-mails, and drive up his subscribers (and YouTube ad revenue, LOL)...

If there is a derangement, it's his need to be followed and lauded, he's not a narcissist, but after two bad marriages, we think it fills some emptiness in his life, he's good at being the smartest guy in the room full of morons, honestly, if he was an evil person, he'd make a pretty good cult leader...

In my wife's family, they see it as harmless, they'll tease him but not too far, they generally just avoid it, sometimes not fighting ignorance is an okay way of keeping the peace in the family, sometimes people make the choice to be ignorant and they have that right...

Deranged? I guess...willful obfuscation as a path to emotional fulfillment, that's his derangement...if he starts talking about having to meet the mother ship, then we'll have an intervention...
  #43  
Old 08-13-2018, 06:13 PM
RivkahChaya's Avatar
RivkahChaya RivkahChaya is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorsnak View Post
On another note, Youtube keeps suggesting flat earther videos to me (might have something to do with the fact I occasionally click on them), and yesterday I saw one where the guy "proved" flat earth using Google Maps. You see, he plotted out a 600 mile bicycle trip and Google Maps told him the net elevation change was a mere 10 feet. But over 600 miles there should be 30 miles of drop due to curvature if the round earthers were right!
Oh, that was hysterically funny! Best laugh I've had in weeks!
  #44  
Old 08-13-2018, 06:58 PM
Leaffan's Avatar
Leaffan Leaffan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 23,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycat View Post
I think there probably really was a moon landing, but I understand the doubt. The only way we know about it is thru the government and the media, so I think a healthy skepticism is not necessarily out of order.
And Australia was in on it?
And Canada was in on it?
And the Soviets were on on it?
And the UK?
And every other nation with radio telescopes?
And 400,000 plus people who have clammed up to-date?

Wow.

Last edited by Leaffan; 08-13-2018 at 06:58 PM.
  #45  
Old 08-13-2018, 07:29 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: CentralArkansas
Posts: 24,082
It's a sad symptom of the paranoia sweeping this country.

Some of the public doesn't trust anything anymore. The media, government, their church, nobody. The web fuels paranoia and distrust like gasoline on a campfire.

Every time a major news event happens, there's deniers and truthers out there saying it's a manipulated hoax.

Last edited by aceplace57; 08-13-2018 at 07:32 PM.
  #46  
Old 08-13-2018, 07:59 PM
Happy Fun Ball Happy Fun Ball is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The down hill slope
Posts: 3,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
Oh, that was hysterically funny! Best laugh I've had in weeks!
Did you see the one where the guy put a carpenter's level in the luggage compartment above his seat with his cell phone camera filming it and then used this to prove the earth was flat?
  #47  
Old 08-13-2018, 08:39 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,314
Quote:
Originally Posted by betterlifethroughchemistry View Post

If there is a derangement, it's his need to be followed and lauded, he's not a narcissist, but after two bad marriages, we think it fills some emptiness in his life, he's good at being the smartest guy in the room full of morons, honestly, if he was an evil person, he'd make a pretty good cult leader...
His clearly not being a malignant narcissist, does not automatically make him not a narcissist. Messing with people in a supposedly nice way, is still messing with people. I don't want to meet him. I don't say he's dangerous, but for myself I wouldn't bet against his being dangerous.
  #48  
Old 08-13-2018, 08:49 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,314
Quote:
Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
It's a sad symptom of the paranoia sweeping this country.
It's not paranoia. It's gullibility. Millions are not hallucinating, millions are not believing that their neighbour is secretly a lizard. Instead, they are believing exactly two very simple lies (the two lies fit together) from neoconservative politicians:

1. You are being lied to by "the media" and "the state".
2. I'll save you.


Note that both are necessary, and note that both are lies.
  #49  
Old 08-13-2018, 08:58 PM
Projammer's Avatar
Projammer Projammer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SW Arkansas
Posts: 6,348
Film director Stanley Kubrick admitted to directing and managing the fake. But he was such a perfectionist that he insisted in filming on site.
__________________
Lurking in the corridors of my mind.
  #50  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:07 PM
The Tooth The Tooth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 4,217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enola Gay View Post
Same reason for all conspiracy theorists: they like to think they are smarter than everyone else. The CIA killed Kennedy & 9/11 was an inside job
The only conspiracy theorist I know personally is such because he refuses to believe what's in front of his eyes: he can't believe burning jet fuel softens support beams so he thinks the World Trade Towers were rigged for demolition; he can't believe people would behave as those in the Trump Administration behave or that you would tolerate it so he thinks everything about it from the campaign rallies and election results on up is all a put-on. By whom? Goldman Sachs, of course.

He thinks moon-landing conspiracy nuts and flat Earthers are full of beans. Go figure.
__________________
"It would never occur to me to wear pink, just as it would never occur to Michael Douglas to play a poor person." - Sarah Vowell
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:36 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017