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Old 08-14-2018, 08:03 AM
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"Red Pill" warning in GD

Here are the series of posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
Try the Red Pill...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
What, you mean the one that makes me a shitty, bitter, hateful misogynistic prick who happens to be totally wrong about everything all the time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
That’ll earn you a warning, BPC. Control yourself.
I think this is incorrect moderation. "Red Pill" is a specific and particularly disgusting ideology -- a spin off of the Men's Rights movement that is somehow even more hateful. I have trouble believing that criticizing the KKK as "shitty, bitter, hateful, and misogynstic" would violate the rules -- why would criticizing the Red Pill movement in this way violate the rules?

EDIT: More on the Red Pill movement here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/li...at-women-want/

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-14-2018 at 08:06 AM.
  #2  
Old 08-14-2018, 08:13 AM
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Yeah I responded to the PM in question with the explicit notice that if it wasn't reversed, I would start this thread. I'm glad someone else did instead. Particularly given the larger context of the thread (and I don't just mean the far more explicit insult directly below my post!) this warning is moderation so abysmally bad that it feels like a slap in the face. Red pill philosophy typically produces shitty, bitter misogynistic pricks. That's not inaccurate, and my post does not imply that any particular poster was such a person, merely that the philosophy tends towards that result. And that's just the truth.
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Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 08-14-2018 at 08:16 AM.
  #3  
Old 08-14-2018, 08:20 AM
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(In fact, I specifically used "me" instead of "you" to avoid precisely this misunderstanding. I fell down that rabbit hole for a while as a teenager and it was fucking awful.)
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Old 08-14-2018, 08:52 AM
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However, red pill is also a direct reference to the Matrix, and Phil's post was responding to another Matrix reference. I'm not a mod, but I was willing to overlook the other connotation since it was a direct response to a Matrix reference with another one.

I'm not a moderator but I thought BPC's response was over the top and added nothing of value to a discussion about Carter Page.
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Old 08-14-2018, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Here are the series of posts:







I think this is incorrect moderation. "Red Pill" is a specific and particularly disgusting ideology -- a spin off of the Men's Rights movement that is somehow even more hateful. I have trouble believing that criticizing the KKK as "shitty, bitter, hateful, and misogynstic" would violate the rules -- why would criticizing the Red Pill movement in this way violate the rules?

EDIT: More on the Red Pill movement here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/li...at-women-want/
ISTM that this amounts to saying "I'm allowed to call them [such-and-such disparaging terms] because they really are all that". I'd be surprised if that was adopted here as a general rule.

I would suggest that if a group openly acknowledges that they're a hate group, e.g. the KKK, then it's acceptable to call them that consistent with current rules. But if the notion that they're a hate group is just the assessment of their ideological opponents, then that would not apply.
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Old 08-14-2018, 09:03 AM
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Agreed that was bullshit moderation. And nothing, not even a note, for the subsequent direct insult?
  #7  
Old 08-14-2018, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
However, red pill is also a direct reference to the Matrix, and Phil's post was responding to another Matrix reference. I'm not a mod, but I was willing to overlook the other connotation since it was a direct response to a Matrix reference with another one.

I'm not a moderator but I thought BPC's response was over the top and added nothing of value to a discussion about Carter Page.
With all due respect, the entire thread added nothing to the discussion of Carter Page. It's exactly the kind of clusterfuck I'm talking about in my thread about preemptively closing threads - by that point (less than 20 posts in) the OP's arguments had been addressed and the response was "There is no evidence" and a repetition of the existing points (points which the same poster had already rehashed in a separate thread about Carter Page).

Then he brings up the red pill, I take a snipe at the philosophy (NOT the poster), he responds with "you don't need a pill for that", a statement which is at least as much of a personal insult, and I get a warning.

Impressive moderation, that.
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Old 08-14-2018, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
ISTM that this amounts to saying "I'm allowed to call them [such-and-such disparaging terms] because they really are all that". I'd be surprised if that was adopted here as a general rule.

I would suggest that if a group openly acknowledges that they're a hate group, e.g. the KKK, then it's acceptable to call them that consistent with current rules. But if the notion that they're a hate group is just the assessment of their ideological opponents, then that would not apply.
That's not what I'm saying -- I'm pretty sure that even broad statements like "Democrats hate America" or "Republicans are bigots" aren't usually moderated in GD. I think moderator JC assumed that post was a personal attack, while in fact it was a sharp attack on the Red Pill ideology.
  #9  
Old 08-14-2018, 09:22 AM
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I didn't think BPC's comment was an insult that deserved a warning. I see as sort of like this (though absent the MRA nonsense):

Person A: "Hey man, you need a drink."

Person B: "Why, so I can become a raging alcoholic that ruins his family and ends up dying alone?"

Person B's comment just isn't an insult of A, even though it is... more provocative.
  #10  
Old 08-14-2018, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
With all due respect, the entire thread added nothing to the discussion of Carter Page. It's exactly the kind of clusterfuck I'm talking about in my thread about preemptively closing threads - by that point (less than 20 posts in) the OP's arguments had been addressed and the response was "There is no evidence" and a repetition of the existing points (points which the same poster had already rehashed in a separate thread about Carter Page).

Then he brings up the red pill, I take a snipe at the philosophy (NOT the poster), he responds with "you don't need a pill for that", a statement which is at least as much of a personal insult, and I get a warning.

Impressive moderation, that.
I'm actually enjoying the schooling in both of those threads. The board has been admirable in its patience, and pointing to the specific parts of the FBI application that proves him wrong. I wouldn't want that thread to be preemptively closed.

If he insulted you, you should report the post. He made a Matrix reference in response to a Matrix reference. Maybe that's too much benefit of the doubt, but I don't see what your response added.
  #11  
Old 08-14-2018, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
However, red pill is also a direct reference to the Matrix, and Phil's post was responding to another Matrix reference. I'm not a mod, but I was willing to overlook the other connotation since it was a direct response to a Matrix reference with another one.

I'm not a moderator but I thought BPC's response was over the top and added nothing of value to a discussion about Carter Page.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
I'm actually enjoying the schooling in both of those threads. The board has been admirable in its patience, and pointing to the specific parts of the FBI application that proves him wrong. I wouldn't want that thread to be preemptively closed.

If he insulted you, you should report the post. He made a Matrix reference in response to a Matrix reference. Maybe that's too much benefit of the doubt, but I don't see what your response added.

(emphasis mine)

That, in itself, is the power of coded language; the same language that white supremacist have been cultivating since before Goldwater (See Lee Atwater, 1981). One starts with saying/doing something duplicitous then immediately hiding behind the cloak of plausible deniability. That's followed by feigning outrage, anger, or puzzlement when you question their sincerity. Sessions has this down to a perfect art form but Trump, surprisingly, isn't too far behind. This behavior (which includes equivocation and whataboutism) serves shift the discussion from something uncomfortable like white supremacy to something that's non-threatening like the Matrix or the ills of the black community. This is layered beneath what Robin DiAngelo refers as "white solidarity"; the unconscious tendency for white folks to dismiss or be highly skeptical of accusations of racism by people of color (and others) in order to perpetuate white supremacy. In fact, I'll let her speak for herself.

Kuchiyose No Jutsu

Take it from here, Robin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin DiAngelo, PhD
White fragility works to punish the person giving feedback and essentially bully them back into silence. It also maintains white solidarity—the tacit agreement that we will protect white privilege and not hold each other accountable for our racism. When the person giving the feedback is a person of color, the charge is “playing the race card” and the consequences of white fragility are much more penalizing.

Last edited by Huey Freeman; 08-14-2018 at 09:38 AM.
  #12  
Old 08-14-2018, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I think this is incorrect moderation. "Red Pill" is a specific and particularly disgusting ideology -- a spin off of the Men's Rights movement that is somehow even more hateful. I have trouble believing that criticizing the KKK as "shitty, bitter, hateful, and misogynstic" would violate the rules -- why would criticizing the Red Pill movement in this way violate the rules?
Because it's a right wing movement, and the right wing always gets handled with kid gloves. On the SDMB, and everywhere else.

And calling the KKK those things probably would get you in trouble, actually, since the KKK is also right wing. You could probably call the Democrats or ACLU something like that, but not the KKK, Republicans or Red Pill types.
  #13  
Old 08-14-2018, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
I didn't think BPC's comment was an insult that deserved a warning. I see as sort of like this (though absent the MRA nonsense):

Person A: "Hey man, you need a drink."

Person B: "Why, so I can become a raging alcoholic that ruins his family and ends up dying alone?"

Person B's comment just isn't an insult of A, even though it is... more provocative.
I feel like this misses the important context of what "take the red pill" means in right-wing circles. Maybe I'm reading that in somewhere where it doesn't apply, but hoo boy did my dog perk right up.
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  #14  
Old 08-14-2018, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
"Red Pill" is a specific and particularly disgusting ideology
It is. I clicked on your link and was duly disgusted. But it is a mistake to assume everyone understands or recognises every code phrase / dog whistle. EasyPhil should have provided something like the link that you did. Since he (she?) didn't, and BPC didn't reference it either, and with red being the Republican colour, the comment could easily be taken as insulting all Republicans, so I understand the warning.

Last edited by Quartz; 08-14-2018 at 10:14 AM.
  #15  
Old 08-14-2018, 10:28 AM
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Budget Player Cadet used the nondirect language that's always been allowed as an insult against groups. Easy Phil gave a direct personal insult. There's no comparison between the two.

The warning should be shifted appropriately.
  #16  
Old 08-14-2018, 10:28 AM
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Sorry for the delay, I was in a doctor's appointment.

(As an aside, if you ever want to see your co-pay budget equal your grocery budget, have cancer. You, too, can live the dream.)

Yes, I warned BPC. I took his post as an insult toward EasyPhil, even if an encoded one. BPC has a long history of insulting other posters for which he's been warned - including a suspension - with which he disagrees politically and I considered this one more of the same. I do not believe the explanation about trying to avoid making a direct insult.

During his time here, BPC has accumulated many warnings - even discounting todays - from five different current and former moderators. Most of the warnings - three-quarters of them - are for personal insults. In short, he doesn't have a freight of good will that he didn't intend an insult - direct or otherwise - when he made that post. Given those factors, I issued the warning.

Given those factors, I elected to warn him.
  #17  
Old 08-14-2018, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
Sorry for the delay, I was in a doctor's appointment.

(As an aside, if you ever want to see your co-pay budget equal your grocery budget, have cancer. You, too, can live the dream.)

Yes, I warned BPC. I took his post as an insult toward EasyPhil, even if an encoded one. BPC has a long history of insulting other posters for which he's been warned - including a suspension - with which he disagrees politically and I considered this one more of the same. I do not believe the explanation about trying to avoid making a direct insult.

During his time here, BPC has accumulated many warnings - even discounting todays - from five different current and former moderators. Most of the warnings - three-quarters of them - are for personal insults. In short, he doesn't have a freight of good will that he didn't intend an insult - direct or otherwise - when he made that post. Given those factors, I issued the warning.

Given those factors, I elected to warn him.
But it wasn't a personal insult at all, even indirectly. It was an attack on the Red Pill ideology. If somone says "you should join the Klan", and I say "no thanks, I don't want to be an ignorant racist asshole", then I'm attacking the Klan, not insulting that poster.

EDIT: Best wishes for your treatment and recovery.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-14-2018 at 10:35 AM.
  #18  
Old 08-14-2018, 10:40 AM
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Two things.

First, thanks for the good wishes. Things continue to go well but I continue to resent the time it takes.

Second, as stated, you may see it that way. I do not. I simply don't think that post was anything other than a sideways slam at EasyPhil.
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
But it wasn't a personal insult at all, even indirectly. It was an attack on the Red Pill ideology. If somone says "you should join the Klan", and I say "no thanks, I don't want to be an ignorant racist asshole", then I'm attacking the Klan, not insulting that poster.

EDIT: Best wishes for your treatment and recovery.
I agree with this. It was a caustic description of red pill ideology, not a personal insult.
  #20  
Old 08-14-2018, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Budget Player Cadet used the nondirect language that's always been allowed as an insult against groups. Easy Phil gave a direct personal insult.
Or did he? "You don't need a pill for that" could mean "one doesn't need a pill for that," rather than "you" personally.

Deliberate ambiguity is all fun and games until someone gets hurt!
  #21  
Old 08-14-2018, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
Two things.

First, thanks for the good wishes. Things continue to go well but I continue to resent the time it takes.

Second, as stated, you may see it that way. I do not. I simply don't think that post was anything other than a sideways slam at EasyPhil.
Okay. If someone says "you should take the Red Pill" in GD, then how can I respond within the rules while also appropriately shitting on that disgusting ideology as much as allowed?
  #22  
Old 08-14-2018, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
Sorry for the delay, I was in a doctor's appointment.

(As an aside, if you ever want to see your co-pay budget equal your grocery budget, have cancer. You, too, can live the dream.)

Yes, I warned BPC. I took his post as an insult toward EasyPhil, even if an encoded one. BPC has a long history of insulting other posters for which he's been warned - including a suspension - with which he disagrees politically and I considered this one more of the same. I do not believe the explanation about trying to avoid making a direct insult.

During his time here, BPC has accumulated many warnings - even discounting todays - from five different current and former moderators. Most of the warnings - three-quarters of them - are for personal insults. In short, he doesn't have a freight of good will that he didn't intend an insult - direct or otherwise - when he made that post. Given those factors, I issued the warning.
Unless I'm badly misreading my user control panel, in the 7 years I've been a member here, I've had 5 warnings, three of which are personal insult infractions - all of those from you, oddly enough. And sure, I deserved two of them, and to my knowledge I did not contest them, because those were fair calls. I spoke out in anger after the election and crossed the line. But in this case, I'm rather at a loss as to what you expect from me. I didn't insult a person. I insulted a shitty, toxic ideology. I did so explicitly, without mentioning the poster. I referenced myself, because I have literally been there myself (I blame youtube atheism). I "took the red pill" and the result was me being a shitty, bitter, lonely person.

I'm glad you realized that the post below it was a direct insult, thank you for correcting that gross oversight. This ruling is still ridiculous, and I'd appreciate some input from one of the other moderators.
  #23  
Old 08-14-2018, 11:56 AM
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Look further down your UserCP. There are five warnings per page. Click over. You have 13, 9 of which are for insults.
  #24  
Old 08-14-2018, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
Two things.

First, thanks for the good wishes. Things continue to go well but I continue to resent the time it takes.

Second, as stated, you may see it that way. I do not. I simply don't think that post was anything other than a sideways slam at EasyPhil.
And that should give you pause. Even if you disagree with other interpretations, you should be able to see them. And even if you missed them at first, others have detailed them. Not only that, but they've repeatedly shown the flaws in your interpretation.

I mean, it's just direct English interpretation to see that he's describing the pill. His description "that makes me a shitty, bitter, hateful misogynistic prick who happens to be totally wrong about everything all the time" is attached to the word "one." The word "one" has the antecedent of "the red pill." It cannot link to the poster, as that's not how English works.

Your interpretation requires reading BPC's mind and assuming that he was secretly trying to encode a personal attack in language that isn't one on its own. It requires assuming that the other poster is a Red Piller, even though he never said he was. It requires assuming that BPC had temporarily lost control of himself, given your last response.

You make a lot of assumptions rather than just using the straightforward reading of what is said. I understand them, but they are all more tenuous than the interpretation that he was following the rules which say you can attack the post, not the poster.

And I at least find predicting assumptions like this to be difficult. The only way I've succeeded is to constantly rewrite my post over and over while thinking of the worst way what I type may be interpreted. (I've been working on this post for an hour now, based on when the board says I was last here.)
  #25  
Old 08-14-2018, 12:11 PM
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You should have instead said that it makes some people shitty, bitter, hateful, etc. I gather that would get you a note at most.
  #26  
Old 08-14-2018, 12:14 PM
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jesus fucking christ

It really should not be this hard for a messageboard not to condone nasty bullshit like r/theredpill

Come on guys.
  #27  
Old 08-14-2018, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
Sorry for the delay, I was in a doctor's appointment.

(As an aside, if you ever want to see your co-pay budget equal your grocery budget, have cancer. You, too, can live the dream.)

Yes, I warned BPC. I took his post as an insult toward EasyPhil, even if an encoded one. BPC has a long history of insulting other posters for which he's been warned - including a suspension - with which he disagrees politically and I considered this one more of the same. I do not believe the explanation about trying to avoid making a direct insult.

During his time here, BPC has accumulated many warnings - even discounting todays - from five different current and former moderators. Most of the warnings - three-quarters of them - are for personal insults. In short, he doesn't have a freight of good will that he didn't intend an insult - direct or otherwise - when he made that post. Given those factors, I issued the warning.

Given those factors, I elected to warn him.
Cancer is obviously horrible and nothing else needs to be said on that subject except to hope you do as well as a friend of mine who was expected to die and now five years later is cancer-free.

Unfortunately, we're discussing moderation of a thread instead.

I didn't know BPC's history and maybe that justifies mods not cutting him any slack. I don't know EasyPhil's history either. All I see is a thread that should either be closed or moved to the pit to allow posters to properly address his conduct as well as a personal insult that occurred before you stepped in to moderate.

I was going to say more but it turns out you did finally give EasyPhil a warning. I shouldn't have needed to click over to find that out; you should have mentioned it here because it completely changes this discussion.
  #28  
Old 08-14-2018, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Inner Stickler View Post
It really should not be this hard for a messageboard not to condone nasty bullshit like r/theredpill.
Part of the problem, as I noted above, is spotting the correct reference. The red pill also occurs in the film the Matrix. And Total Recall. And it occurs in literature. Certain real-world pills are red (e.g. Xanax and Tramadol). Which one is the correct reference? You can't expect people to Just Know.

Compare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invented text by me
You took the red pill, didn't you?
with

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invented text by me
You took the red pill, didn't you?
Same words, vastly different meanings. Both clarified by the links.

Given that there was no explanation, I understand the warning.

Last edited by Quartz; 08-14-2018 at 01:10 PM.
  #29  
Old 08-14-2018, 01:25 PM
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Part of the problem, as I noted above, is spotting the correct reference. The red pill also occurs in the film the Matrix. And Total Recall. And it occurs in literature. Certain real-world pills are red (e.g. Xanax and Tramadol). Which one is the correct reference? You can't expect people to Just Know.

Compare

with

Same words, vastly different meanings. Both clarified by the links.

Given that there was no explanation, I understand the warning.
Until this thread I was unaware RED Pill was an ideology. I have always assumed the cinematic references when I've seen it. Along the line of the road lesser traveled.
  #30  
Old 08-14-2018, 01:26 PM
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If I had just read the post in question without reading this thread, I would have interpreted it as an indirect insult, too. Even though BPC used "me" in his post, there seemed to have been an implicit "like you" there based on the tone. I would have recognized The Matrix reference, but not the Men's Rights Movement reference. Never heard of that "red pill" reference, and after doing a bit of googling I'd still call it very obscure. Best not to use obscure cultural references with something that might come off as an insult.

Having said that, and with the explanation given by BPC and by others in this thread, I agree that the warning should be rescinded. I understand the poster has a history of warnings for insults, but I feel pretty confident after reading this thread that no insult was intended.

But it's a judgement call, and I guess the moral of the story, if the warning is not rescinded, is what I wrote at the end of my first paragraph. I think we've encountered other situations here that fall in that category. After all, why would anyone interject something about Men's Rights into a thread about Carter Page? Makes no sense at all.

Last edited by John Mace; 08-14-2018 at 01:28 PM.
  #31  
Old 08-14-2018, 01:28 PM
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I feel like this misses the important context of what "take the red pill" means in right-wing circles. Maybe I'm reading that in somewhere where it doesn't apply, but hoo boy did my dog perk right up.
But if this is what you meant, I think that tends to confirm that you're taking a swipe at the other poster based on their misogyny. (As opposed to my example, in which you'd really be taking the piss out of yourself.)
  #32  
Old 08-14-2018, 01:42 PM
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jesus fucking christ

It really should not be this hard for a messageboard not to condone nasty bullshit like r/theredpill

Come on guys.
Chances warning really has nothing to do with the Redpill. If someone posted that the redpill movement was full of "shitty, bitter, hateful misogynistic pricks who happen to be totally wrong about everything all the time" I am sure no warning would occur.

What Chance apparently thought is that that line was a clever attempt to conceal a personal insult vs a poster.

This seems doubtful. JC is very often seeing insults where none are meant. Just like my first warning, where I made a really bad joke. Even the person I made the joke against didn't take it as a insult. Basically, even if the "insulter" claims there was no insult meant, and the "insultee" also said he saw and took no insult, and several posters say they didnt see it, JC will continue on, sure that a insult was there, even tho no one else can see it.

But there is zero chance he will change his mind, I am sure he is SURE that that was some sort of personal insult vs a poster.

Otherwise JC does a good job, but he is often seeing insults where none are meant.
  #33  
Old 08-14-2018, 01:53 PM
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One question that no one seems to be addressing is what EasyPhil meant with his statement, and - more importantly - what is a reasonable interpretation of his statement.

Specifically, was it reasonable for BPC to assume that EasyPhil referring to MRA as opposed to merely suggesting that he (BPC) face the uncomfortable reality WRT the Carter Page issue that was being discussed? Because if BPC's interpretation was not a reasonable interpretation, then his gratuitously dragging in MRA seems like an attempt to attack EP by associating him with misogyny etc. If he genuinely thought that EP was for some reason introducing MRA to the discussion, then that's something else.
  #34  
Old 08-14-2018, 01:55 PM
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After all, why would anyone interject something about Men's Rights into a thread about Carter Page? Makes no sense at all.
References to taking the red pill can extend into other areas like conspiracy theories and racial biology differences. It's why being "red pilled" is often likened to the right wing version of being "woke."

I believe it's no accident the poster did not intend to mention a specific philosophy but also meant it as more than a Matrix reference.
  #35  
Old 08-14-2018, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
One question that no one seems to be addressing is what EasyPhil meant with his statement, and - more importantly - what is a reasonable interpretation of his statement.

Specifically, was it reasonable for BPC to assume that EasyPhil referring to MRA as opposed to merely suggesting that he (BPC) face the uncomfortable reality WRT the Carter Page issue that was being discussed? Because if BPC's interpretation was not a reasonable interpretation, then his gratuitously dragging in MRA seems like an attempt to attack EP by associating him with misogyny etc. If he genuinely thought that EP was for some reason introducing MRA to the discussion, then that's something else.
His capitalization is what made me think it's most likely he meant the Red Pill ideology, and BPC's response made it very obvious to me that BPC was specifically attacking the ideology, even if that's not what the first poster meant.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-14-2018 at 02:01 PM.
  #36  
Old 08-14-2018, 02:08 PM
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References to taking the red pill can extend into other areas like conspiracy theories and racial biology differences. It's why being "red pilled" is often likened to the right wing version of being "woke."

I believe it's no accident the poster did not intend to mention a specific philosophy but also meant it as more than a Matrix reference.
Perhaps it can, in other instances. I'm basing my conclusions on the first two posts in this thread where it seems clear that BPC was using it in the Men's Rights Movement context. If not, then it should be no surprise that folks can't figure out what the hell it's supposed to mean.
  #37  
Old 08-14-2018, 02:17 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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His capitalization is what made me think it's most likely he meant the Red Pill ideology, and BPC's response made it very obvious to me that BPC was specifically attacking the ideology, even if that's not what the first poster meant.
I'm not aware that capitalization makes a difference, but I'm not all that familiar with various incarnations of red pill references and you could be right about that.

There's no doubt that BPC was attacking the MRA ideology even if that's not what the first poster meant. The issue is that if BPC likely knew that EP meant something else and deliberately chose to attack the MRA meaning in an attempt to insinuate that EP meant the MRA ideology - and by extension was himself a Red Pill misogynist etc. - then that's an issue on its own.

Basically, my point is that there's a big difference between objecting to an ideology if that ideology is actually what's being discussed, and objecting to that ideology if that's not on the table and your primary purpose in objecting to it is to pin odious connotations on your debate opponent.
  #38  
Old 08-14-2018, 02:36 PM
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There's no doubt...
I've got to disagree. It only works if you get the reference. Someone who doesn't - as those who in this thread did not - is going to draw the wrong conclusion. It would all have been avoided if BPC and EasyPhil had included links.

I suppose it thus serves as an object lesson to us all.
  #39  
Old 08-14-2018, 02:42 PM
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I've got to disagree.
What do you think I've said that you disagree with?
  #40  
Old 08-14-2018, 03:06 PM
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Still waiting on feedback from other mods, btw. This decision is and remains bullshit.
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Interested in recreational hypnosis? Ask me about my Patreon, where I go by "ToymakerHypnosis".

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 08-14-2018 at 03:10 PM.
  #41  
Old 08-14-2018, 03:31 PM
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Still waiting on feedback from other mods, btw. This decision is and remains bullshit.
What other mods have you contacted, and why do you think they would interfere in another mod's forum(outside of an emergency)?
  #42  
Old 08-14-2018, 03:37 PM
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What other mods have you contacted, and why do you think they would interfere in another mod's forum(outside of an emergency)?
I figure most of 'em at least pay attention to ATMB, although I may be wrong. And I'm asking them to intervene because this was a fucking horseshit decision that should be reversed.
  #43  
Old 08-14-2018, 03:41 PM
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I've mentioned before, and I'll say again: mods should mod with their finger outside the trigger guard. In this particular case, JC erred on the side of incaution, issuing a warning in an edge case. I think this is a bad idea, and the warning should be rescinded, especially given BPC's explanation.
  #44  
Old 08-14-2018, 03:47 PM
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Comparing this moderation to the non-warning moderation of the "(less-intelligent) blacks" post in the other ATMB thread is really disheartening to me, about this board. I hope there is a vigorous backstage conversation going on about these cases among the mods. The benefit of the doubt goes to a poster who was clearly denigrating the humanity of black people, while no benefit goes to a poster who was clearly (IMO) criticizing an extreme and hateful ideology.

Really, really disheartening. The board should be better, IMO. And it wouldn't be hard.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-14-2018 at 03:48 PM.
  #45  
Old 08-14-2018, 03:49 PM
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I figure most of 'em at least pay attention to ATMB, although I may be wrong. And I'm asking them to intervene because this was a fucking horseshit decision that should be reversed.
They are usually pretty busy monitoring their own forums, afaik.
  #46  
Old 08-14-2018, 03:56 PM
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I didn't insult a person. I insulted a shitty, toxic ideology..
Should have insulted black people, saved yourself the warning.
  #47  
Old 08-14-2018, 03:59 PM
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So, if I understand: "happen[ing] to be wrong about everything all the time" is a trait associated with the Red Pill ethos in general— which is all BPC was referring to, and nothing more— and it's purely by coincidence that EasyPhil also happens to be wrong about everything all the time?
  #48  
Old 08-14-2018, 04:49 PM
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Second, as stated, you may see it that way. I do not. I simply don't think that post was anything other than a sideways slam at EasyPhil.
Had you heard of this whole "Red Pill" movement before? If not, then I could see how one would take it as some kind of weird, non-sequitur insult. In other words, one might assume that BPC saying "You mean the pill that makes me a sexist [etc. etc.]" was intended to be read with an implied "like you are" at the end. But it'd be a pretty big non-sequitur, given that there was nothing even vaguely related to sexism in the thread (especially if EasyPhil has no history of sexist comments in other threads that BPC might have been referencing -- I have no idea if he does or not).

But if you've heard of the whole "red pill" thing before, I would think it seems a lot more plausible that BPC was just ragging on the "red pill" people -- more plausible because they actually are known for being misogynists, so it's not an insult that was completely out of left field.

As an analogy, imagine someone said "Is that your best argument, or are you waiting to play your trump card?" and BPC responded "You mean the card that makes me a bigot who thinks Mexicans are all rapists?" If you didn't understand the reference to Donald Trump, you'd probably think that it's a weirdly out-of-nowhere accusation of bigotry, but it makes a lot more sense to interpret it as him just taking the opportunity to criticize Donald Trump.

Even if BPC has a history of getting warned for insulting other posters, that doesn't necessarily make that interpretation more likely. He may have just as prolific a history of insulting non-posters, as he claimed was the case here. But insults to non-posters are presumably not tracked by the moderators.
  #49  
Old 08-14-2018, 04:58 PM
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Had you heard of this whole "Red Pill" movement before? If not, then I could see how one would take it as some kind of weird, non-sequitur insult.
I had never heard of it, myself.

Jonathan Chance, had you ever heard of the movement?
  #50  
Old 08-14-2018, 04:59 PM
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Summing up my previous post:

The choice of insult makes sense if BPC's intended target was the red pill people, but the choice of insult seems bizarre and random if his intended target was EasyPhil (unless Phil has a history of posting misogynist comments that I don't know about).

So that suggests the former is more likely.

Last edited by tim314; 08-14-2018 at 05:00 PM.
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