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Old 08-16-2018, 01:39 PM
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What does democracy do post-trump?

We are in a crisis right now. But we have to be able to see a year or two into the future.

What laws, commissions, appointments, agencies, or amendments should, could or would be made in the US to mitigate, or eliminate the chance that we go through something like this again?

Is it avoidable at all?

This is an obsession of mine as I watch the circus parade. People who I trust to give me info and are much closer and wiser to the levers of power, are very worried and confused and it makes me wonder what the next moves are to protect what is being degraded and insulted right now.

Electoral reform is on top of the list I suppose. Mandatory voting, entrance tests for high positions, campaign finance, are all on the table. But what is the path forward?
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:51 PM
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Thorough finance check of anyone running for high office.
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:59 PM
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We need to change peoples' minds. If the people aren't behind such reforms, they'll be impossible to put in place. And if they are, the reforms are unnecessary.
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Old 08-16-2018, 02:13 PM
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If you want those things, you need a two-thirds majority in both the House and the Senate, or a convention called by two-thirds of the state legislatures. So identify, clearly, what you want and start building those majorities.

Regards,
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Old 08-16-2018, 02:32 PM
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The nifty thing about the democratic process is the results tend to reflect the prevailing values of the affected population. Trump, and politicians like him, are not the problem. They are symptoms. Our society no longer values education. Therefore, we are resistant to paying taxes to fund a good basic education for our kids. They grow up incurious and unable to think critically, and are easily manipulated by half-truths, pretty lies, and appeals to baser drives. We don't need any more election reform than unhackable paper ballots to ensure the actual will of the people is being reflected in the elected positions. But you can't elect competent representation if you don't see competence in the mirror in the morning.

This is supposed to be the goddamned land of the free--more laws is NOT what we should be about. Laws are the opposite of freedom and undermine the need to think deeply and broadly about things. Which would be better: that a thief and liar should be prohibited from becoming president, or that the electorate would just naturally be repelled by that idea?
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Old 08-16-2018, 02:38 PM
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Recover. Basically, those of us in the "other" camp, and indeed much of the world, wait to see if trump is a trend or an aberration. Act accordingly in either case.
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Old 08-16-2018, 02:46 PM
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So far, things are actually looking fairly good. Given all the crap Trump has been shouting, he actually hasn't achieved all that much. It is a testament to the US institutions that the executive can be kept in check like that.

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Old 08-16-2018, 03:07 PM
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Bleed out.
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Old 08-16-2018, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Electoral reform is on top of the list I suppose. Mandatory voting, entrance tests for high positions, campaign finance, are all on the table. But what is the path forward?
Electoral reform will mostly have to be tackled on a state-by-state basis. The only federal election we have in the United States is the one where all the electors chosen by each state get together to choose the President and Vice President.

As I say over and over again in these threads, choosing a reform that would have stymied Donald Trump is missing the point. The next unqualified demagogue who comes along won't have the exact same disqualifications. Oh, Donald Trump didn't release his tax returns? So we make it mandatory for presidential candidates to do so? Except the next poisonous demagogue will sail right through that checkpoint.

Checks and balances only work when there's a constituency who demand those checks and balances. If the people don't care whether the rules are enforced, then no politician is going to care. Or rather, the arcane rules will become just another tool to be wielded against your political adversaries and ignored against your political allies.
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:29 PM
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If you want those things, you need a two-thirds majority in both the House and the Senate, or a convention called by two-thirds of the state legislatures. So identify, clearly, what you want and start building those majorities.

Regards,
Shodan
It's not clear what we need. But my suggestions aren't all in the same category of legislation, I don't think.

Part of our problem is the polarization in the electorate and the lawmakers themselves. So we know what the fate of the consensus builders has been lately. If they keep doing it it just leaves the OP problem here to some remaining people to try and make the country work ethically, with the pols not cooperating. I'm asking what they are going to do. How can they make change happen, what pressures brought to bear?
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:34 PM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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Direct election of the President (eliminate the Electoral College).
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:37 PM
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Thorough finance check of anyone running for high office.
I feel like I have to point out that everyone said, "there's no way Donald Trump can even run for office, that will mean he'll have to disclose his finances and he'll NEVER do that." Well, we saw what happened: he just didn't give a fuck, and ran and won anyway, as I kept predicting would happen to the disbelief of everyone I know. "His taxes! His taxes!" No! He gambled successfully on them not enforcing the financial disclosure at all, and he was right. They didn't enforce it.
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:37 PM
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The nifty thing about the democratic process is the results tend to reflect the prevailing values of the affected population. Trump, and politicians like him, are not the problem. They are symptoms. Our society no longer values education. Therefore, we are resistant to paying taxes to fund a good basic education for our kids. They grow up incurious and unable to think critically, and are easily manipulated by half-truths, pretty lies, and appeals to baser drives. We don't need any more election reform than unhackable paper ballots to ensure the actual will of the people is being reflected in the elected positions. But you can't elect competent representation if you don't see competence in the mirror in the morning.

This is supposed to be the goddamned land of the free--more laws is NOT what we should be about. Laws are the opposite of freedom and undermine the need to think deeply and broadly about things. Which would be better: that a thief and liar should be prohibited from becoming president, or that the electorate would just naturally be repelled by that idea?
Right now we are living with neither. But we are going to have laws no matter what. Why not work with the tools we have?

I've never heard anyone say how many laws should we have. They say "no more...", but they said it at different historical times. It's always the "last straw" though.

To me, "land of the free" is freedom from predatory monopolies, abuse of the environment, and other things, and I will not be a gun owner, so I need laws for my freedom.
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:47 PM
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So far, things are actually looking fairly good. Given all the crap Trump has been shouting, he actually hasn't achieved all that much. It is a testament to the US institutions that the executive can be kept in check like that.

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I wish I could agree with this. But it really seems like the things trump is "failing" at are a lot of distractions. To Trump himself they are life and death to be sure. He is an ethical monster about to be found out and prosecuted by the USA. But the Republican pols are piling up all the advantages they can now and it will be decades of fixing that's needed, if some of these things are even going to be fixable.

Also there is one thing trump has not failed at or even waivered: He has supported a party line while speaking that is unmistakeably anti-democracy. Destablization of democracies, esp of the US, and supporting polarizations in the US, and sympathizing with antidemocratic events in the world. He is obeying masters, and also whistling to antidemocracy people in the US.
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:54 PM
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Electoral reform will mostly have to be tackled on a state-by-state basis. The only federal election we have in the United States is the one where all the electors chosen by each state get together to choose the President and Vice President.

As I say over and over again in these threads, choosing a reform that would have stymied Donald Trump is missing the point. The next unqualified demagogue who comes along won't have the exact same disqualifications. Oh, Donald Trump didn't release his tax returns? So we make it mandatory for presidential candidates to do so? Except the next poisonous demagogue will sail right through that checkpoint.

Checks and balances only work when there's a constituency who demand those checks and balances. If the people don't care whether the rules are enforced, then no politician is going to care. Or rather, the arcane rules will become just another tool to be wielded against your political adversaries and ignored against your political allies.
Well it's a dynamic situation and not static. You don't let criminals be criminals because they just do it anyway and no one cares. The insight that demagogues are adaptable doesn't mean you have open house on the presidency.

And rules must be written even if one day they will be exploited. That's why it's a dynamic and not static thing. That's why they make laws and change them.

I just can't see why a dude can't vote without an ID but someone can be president without a tax return.
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Old 08-16-2018, 05:31 PM
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I suggest you read Jon Meacham's latest book: The Soul of America: The Battle for Our Better Angels.

Listen to an actual presidential historian instead of the loud-mouths on cable news channels.
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:34 PM
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I suggest you read Jon Meacham's latest book: The Soul of America: The Battle for Our Better Angels.

Listen to an actual presidential historian instead of the loud-mouths on cable news channels.
You mean my man Jon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NwDrkZ3O8U

He is one of them too, baked into the OP. We are all in it together. This is an object lesson. We need to give up on belly button culture (Innies and Outties, me vs you)
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:35 PM
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I think the key will be to have him and everything he represents be so thoroughly discredited that his name is only ever used as a cautionary tale or as a negative comparison. I am thinking of such American figures as Nixon, McCarthy, General Custer and Benedict Arnold.

I think this will happen eventually as current prejudices evolve into historical objectiveism, the question is how long will it take.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 08-16-2018 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:52 PM
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We are in a crisis right now.
No, you're not. Like a turd, Trump will pass.

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The nifty thing about the democratic process is the results tend to reflect the prevailing values of the affected population. Trump, and politicians like him, are not the problem. They are symptoms.
This.

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Our society no longer values education.
Quite the reverse, actually: it no longer values those without - or with lesser - education. It equates a lack of education with a lack on intelligence. Both Trump and Brexit are reactions to this. The elites look down and proclaim, and the proles say, "Fuck that, you lying arseholes!"
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Old 08-16-2018, 07:36 PM
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A basic civics/poli-sci test to vote or forget it. It'll be easy. Like: "The US President controls the price of oil - True or False?"
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Old 08-16-2018, 08:50 PM
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I blame the primary system for throwing up the most extreme positions. Experienced pols, for all their faults, tend to be centrists. That's certainly the way it used to be.

In Canada, every candidate has to have his papers signed by the leader of the party whose label they are using. Of course, you can run instead as an independent. So far, we have avoided populism.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:54 PM
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A basic civics/poli-sci test to vote or forget it. It'll be easy. Like: "The US President controls the price of oil - True or False?"
There would probably be numerous questions that would be biased or accused of being biased. Like, "Is man-made climate change real or false?" (it's real, but many conservatives would claim it's a ploy to disqualify GOP voters)

Or "How many genders are there? Two or more-than-two?"
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:58 PM
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Direct election of the President (eliminate the Electoral College).
Although Hillary won the popular vote, she did so by only 2%. It's not at all far-fetched to think that another Trump-like politician, or unusual candidate, could capture an outright majority in a future election.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:13 PM
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The easiest change that can be made is simple: Have the Republican Party change their nomination process. The change they made to avoid another long Romney vs not-Romney battle allowed Trump to steamroll and pick up enough delegates.

And, this change can be made without the constitution nor any state laws. Democrats need to think long and hard before reducing the role of superdelegates as well.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:19 PM
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We need to change peoples' minds. If the people aren't behind such reforms, they'll be impossible to put in place. And if they are, the reforms are unnecessary.
I agree. No law is going to keep us from elected an incompetent. We need to take that responsibility upon ourselves. If we can't handle it, then it's time to abandon democracy.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:23 PM
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Although Hillary won the popular vote, she did so by only 2%. It's not at all far-fetched to think that another Trump-like politician, or unusual candidate, could capture an outright majority in a future election.
Yes, it's possible. But the Electoral College system has given us George W. Bush and Donald Trump.

For that matter, Rutherford Hayes was no prize either.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:56 PM
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Removing lead from the environment so people have higher cognitive abilities is important.

Mandate that any politician be able to pass the same medical, financial and background checks needed to become a military officer or FBI agent.

Penalize dishonest propaganda (I'm not sure how).

Find ways to reduce authoritarianism among the general public (again, how?)

Find ways to reduce bigotry and racism among the general public (how?)



Really the only thing holding us together is an independent judiciary. Without that, we would probably be more like Poland right now. Maintaining an independent judiciary is important.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:18 PM
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I think in order to just not feel humiliated by his election we have to take some measures. The vacuum created by letting this go will be filled with bad.

The tax return

The helsinki appearance

The demand to see putin alone repeatedly (!?!?)

the nazi eqiivocation

The lying

the inauguration committee

the family business

The electoral college

Plus:
The garland affair

Just a few of the utterly unacceptable behaviors that each need to be called out in a legal, quasi legal, or community forum until we are not subject to them any longer. That is tyranny surely if anything is.

All of these things need to be addressed or we don't have a government. They are all different level problems but we have to be comfortable using the impeachment power.

We need to look at some of the "norms" we are mourning right now and think about making policy instead. We are being hacked by anti democracy.

Last edited by drad dog; 08-16-2018 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:22 PM
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I suggest you read Jon Meacham's latest book: The Soul of America: The Battle for Our Better Angels.

Listen to an actual presidential historian instead of the loud-mouths on cable news channels.
It is because of my habit of watching loud-mouths on cable news channels that I even know who Jon Meacham is.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:34 PM
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Stop trying to be a democracy, and go back to being a republic.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:35 PM
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We also have a fox news problem. It doesn't look like they are going to go down quietly or rationally. They are the largest example of psychopathy in human history. This is a now a public danger.

The lying has become dangerous all around but especially in the circuit between hannity and drumpf.

Lying in public needs to be shamed without cease. There should be no time for other coverage of distractions. The only story is the lie and that they lie, that they always lie, and what is the truth and how long before they are in jail.

The fox shows have no content anymore. They are just a repetition of some old points so if donald is watching he can get his jollies. Pathetic. The "Opposite" network MSNBC meanwhile tries to keep up with some stories, like, in the world. Truth is up against lies right in the public square, and some people want to see it all burn.
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Old 08-17-2018, 03:02 AM
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Trump is Conan and you are all his defeated enemies.
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Old 08-17-2018, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
I think in order to just not feel humiliated by his election we have to take some measures. The vacuum created by letting this go will be filled with bad.

The tax return

The helsinki appearance

The demand to see putin alone repeatedly (!?!?)

the nazi eqiivocation

The lying

the inauguration committee

the family business

The electoral college

Plus:
The garland affair

Just a few of the utterly unacceptable behaviors that each need to be called out in a legal, quasi legal, or community forum until we are not subject to them any longer. That is tyranny surely if anything is.

All of these things need to be addressed or we don't have a government. They are all different level problems but we have to be comfortable using the impeachment power.

We need to look at some of the "norms" we are mourning right now and think about making policy instead. We are being hacked by anti democracy.
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We also have a fox news problem. It doesn't look like they are going to go down quietly or rationally. They are the largest example of psychopathy in human history. This is a now a public danger.

The lying has become dangerous all around but especially in the circuit between hannity and drumpf.

Lying in public needs to be shamed without cease. There should be no time for other coverage of distractions. The only story is the lie and that they lie, that they always lie, and what is the truth and how long before they are in jail.

The fox shows have no content anymore. They are just a repetition of some old points so if donald is watching he can get his jollies. Pathetic. The "Opposite" network MSNBC meanwhile tries to keep up with some stories, like, in the world. Truth is up against lies right in the public square, and some people want to see it all burn.
Fox News is the “largest example of psychopathy in human history”? I’m not certain that’s true. And “drumpf”? Lol.

What’s needed is what we got. Think about it.
  #34  
Old 08-17-2018, 03:47 AM
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We also have a fox news problem. It doesn't look like they are going to go down quietly or rationally. They are the largest example of psychopathy in human history. This is a now a public danger.

The lying has become dangerous all around but especially in the circuit between hannity and drumpf.

Lying in public needs to be shamed without cease. There should be no time for other coverage of distractions. The only story is the lie and that they lie, that they always lie, and what is the truth and how long before they are in jail.

The fox shows have no content anymore. They are just a repetition of some old points so if donald is watching he can get his jollies. Pathetic. The "Opposite" network MSNBC meanwhile tries to keep up with some stories, like, in the world. Truth is up against lies right in the public square, and some people want to see it all burn.
It's also how they "avoid" it to be a lie. Like "accidentally" putting a (D) in front of a name. Or semantics like "that transgender". It slips in enough like boobs in a car ad. Just enough to distract the viewer.
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Old 08-17-2018, 03:51 AM
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There would probably be numerous questions that would be biased or accused of being biased. Like, "Is man-made climate change real or false?" (it's real, but many conservatives would claim it's a ploy to disqualify GOP voters)

Or "How many genders are there? Two or more-than-two?"
I'm not trying to discriminate against GOP voters, I'm just trying to get them eduma-cated for once. Those questions are not debatable. The GOP voters would want questions like, "Is the Bible the true meaning of the constitution?" or "Trump never told a lie."

Last edited by Locrian; 08-17-2018 at 03:51 AM.
  #36  
Old 08-17-2018, 04:30 AM
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I think certain things that were norms could very easily become laws. Disclosing your tax returns and putting your assets in a blind trust - these are things that should be laws, as Trump has shown quite convincingly. There's just no reason we shouldn't have access to that information from presidential candidates, and there's just no reason why a presidential candidate should have assets that might color their policies, compared to the potential damage this could cause. Could you convince people to pass those laws? Well, attempts to bring these laws before congress were stopped. I'm not sure why, unless for some reason Mitch McConnell is a craven dishonest shitweasel with no interest in the integrity of - BAHAHAHA I can't finish this sentence with a straight face
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Old 08-17-2018, 05:30 AM
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I'm not trying to discriminate against GOP voters, I'm just trying to get them eduma-cated for once.
Presumably this is being educated the One True Democrat Way? And as long as you equate being uneducated with being unintelligent you will be on the back foot.
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Old 08-17-2018, 06:44 AM
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If you want those things, you need a two-thirds majority in both the House and the Senate, or a convention called by two-thirds of the state legislatures. So identify, clearly, what you want and start building those majorities.

Regards,
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"My car has a habit of veering off the road suddenly, crashing and bursting into flames. All I need to do is to drive it 100 miles to the mechanic to get it fixed."

There is an unfortunate flaw in the approach there.

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Fox News is the “largest example of psychopathy in human history”? I’m not certain that’s true. And “drumpf”? Lol.

What’s needed is what we got. Think about it.
The psychopathy of FoxNews aside, there's no reason to assume that "what's needed is what we got". At best one could say that "what we thought we wanted is what we got" or possibly even "what we were told we needed is what we got, even though it was actually something we not only didn't need but actually needed not to have". Think about it.
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Old 08-17-2018, 06:45 AM
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Presumably this is being educated the One True Democrat Way? And as long as you equate being uneducated with being unintelligent you will be on the back foot.
So you're saying that GOP voters are unintelligent?
  #40  
Old 08-17-2018, 08:28 AM
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Quite the reverse, actually: it no longer values those without - or with lesser - education. It equates a lack of education with a lack on intelligence. Both Trump and Brexit are reactions to this. The elites look down and proclaim, and the proles say, "Fuck that, you lying arseholes!"
This is highly dependent on which side of the mirror you're talking about. A general Yes to your observations on leets & proles, but I would put it to you that the US is predominantly proletariat. Only 30% of us have a 4 year degree, and the majority of those come from institutions oriented more toward delivering a diploma than to actually educating anyone--teaching them how to think through a problem vs. teaching answers. Each side has become impatient with the other. The educated science-y and thinker-y types, with motives ranging from nefarious to philanthropic, manipulate the others to move toward whichever endgame suits their view of the future; the uneducated tend to follow whichever camp offends them the least, although neither direction has their personal interests in mind. My position is that not everyone needs a quality bachelor's degree, but they do need a solid understanding of their own history, of their place with respect to the rest of the world, and of how to really listen to what they're being told and how to fact check that. As it is our educational system is designed to stamp kids into greasy little cogs for the capitalist machinery, and not to turn them into productive free thinkers.
  #41  
Old 08-17-2018, 08:52 AM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
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Originally Posted by PastTense View Post
Direct election of the President (eliminate the Electoral College).
That assumes people won't vote in a populist demagogue. I don't think that will prevent that at all, in fact I think it will increase that chance. Trump won by playing the rules of the EC, not the popular vote. Hillary neglected key parts of winning the EC, almost as if popular vote mattered. They were playing two different games, and Trump played the correct one.
  #42  
Old 08-17-2018, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
Quite the reverse, actually: it no longer values those without - or with lesser - education. It equates a lack of education with a lack on intelligence. Both Trump and Brexit are reactions to this. The elites look down and proclaim, and the proles say, "Fuck that, you lying arseholes!"
The irony, of course, is that voting for either Brexit and Trump is a phenomenally stupid thing to do. Yeah, people were sick of letting "the elites" push them around (whatever that's supposed to mean). They were "tired of experts". The unwashed masses collectively stood up, declared "We don't need none o' yer stinkin' degrees!"

And look where that got us.

Britain has no idea what to do with Brexit, and they're getting closer and closer to the May 2019 deadline while the majority party is stuck infighting over what it wants (let alone what the EU will agree with). It's a complete clusterfuck, with nobody willing or able to do the myriad things necessary to ensure that Britain's departure from the EU doesn't end in utter catastrophe.

If Trump doesn't go down in history as the worst president of the modern era, I'll be pretty fucking surprised. His administration is easily the most corrupt and self-dealing in history, their policy goals are barely coherent when they exist at all, and the real damage of essentially destroying our executive branch from the DOE to the EPA, as well as the real damage of turning against our staunchest allies, probably won't be apparent until long after Trump is gone.

If our society no longer values stupid people, stupid people sure picked the exact wrong way to show us that we should value them.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 08-17-2018 at 09:26 AM.
  #43  
Old 08-17-2018, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by polar bear View Post
So far, things are actually looking fairly good. Given all the crap Trump has been shouting, he actually hasn't achieved all that much. It is a testament to the US institutions that the executive can be kept in check like that.
The U.S.'s international agreements will never be trusted again. There have been massive layoffs of career diplomats, government scientists, and government regulators. Not only has much institutional knowledge been lost but, according to reports, permanent destruction of certain scientific knowledge uncomfortable for polluters has been ordered.

A centrist judge and intellectual right-wing judge on SCOTUS have been replaced with youthful haters. Trump has divulged military and security secrets to our enemies. The specialness of the U.S.A., long looked up to as a bastion of freedom, has been lost. Amid a global tourism boom, tourism to the U.S. has plummeted so badly that the National Travel and Tourism Office has been ordered to stop publishing arrival data.

Federal debt is soaring again, with hundreds of billions passed through portals no longer subject to taxation. Polarization is so bad many old friends no longer speak to each other. Countries around the world are turning to China for leadership in trade and future planning.

If these are temporary changes, I'd hate to see what permanent changes look like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastTense View Post
Direct election of the President (eliminate the Electoral College).
Blame it all on an electoral happenstance that wasn't even the result of deliberate gerrymandering. The 46% were stupid, but the 48% were smarter. 48% - 46% = 2%; duh! Got it. I guess.

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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
I think in order to just not feel humiliated by his election we have to take some measures. The vacuum created by letting this go will be filled with bad.
All the problems you mention are already widely discussed by rational thinkers. But the 38% aren't listening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by octopus View Post
What’s needed is what we got. Think about it.
Octopus' haiku
It doesn't make any sense
Yes, I repeat, No
  #44  
Old 08-17-2018, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
If Trump doesn't go down in history as the worst president of the modern era, I'll be pretty fucking surprised.
What if he escapes the label because somebody worse than him gets elected afterward? Given the state of American politics, I don't think that would be very surprising at all.
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Last edited by Bryan Ekers; 08-17-2018 at 10:38 AM.
  #45  
Old 08-17-2018, 10:38 AM
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Decentralization. Very easy to do in the framework of the existing constitution.
  #46  
Old 08-17-2018, 10:52 AM
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Decentralization.
Is that the 21st-century version of "states' rights" ?
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  #47  
Old 08-17-2018, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Locrian View Post
A basic civics/poli-sci test to vote or forget it. It'll be easy. Like: "The US President controls the price of oil - True or False?"
Nice idea as a fantasy but extremely poor idea in practice, especially given that it would be the party in power that would write the questions. We went through this with literacy tests in the Jim Crow South.

Questions would probably be things like

Q: What was the primary cause of the civil war.
A: States rights

Q: Is there a proven connection between CO2 and global warming.
A: No.

Q: What party did Lincoln belong to
A: Republican

etc.
  #48  
Old 08-17-2018, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
Fox News is the “largest example of psychopathy in human history”? I’m not certain that’s true. And “drumpf”? Lol.

What’s needed is what we got. Think about it.
Why is donalds family name an lol? I try to cycle through different identifiers for him. You must have seen other names for him, maybe on other sites?

If corporations are people Fox news is a psychopath in your home. There is no functional difference. They have taken on many functions of a human being. Think about it.

If you want to talk about the retreat from reality, you have to start at fox.

The things we "needed"? The people who needed to know it have not realized that yet and think they are the ones saving the country somehow. From the "Mainstream" media or something. They are being lied to and misled. We need an enema, but what form does that take? You must know.

Last edited by drad dog; 08-17-2018 at 12:09 PM.
  #49  
Old 08-17-2018, 12:35 PM
Quartz Quartz is offline
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
The irony, of course, is that voting for either Brexit and Trump is a phenomenally stupid thing to do.
The jury is out on the former, though May is doing her best to make it so. But consider this: millions of people thought that voting for Trump was a better choice than voting first for other Republican contenders and then for Clinton. America ignores them at its peril. A warning shot has been fired; look back to 1917, 1789, and 1765.
  #50  
Old 08-17-2018, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
The psychopathy of FoxNews aside, there's no reason to assume that "what's needed is what we got". At best one could say that "what we thought we wanted is what we got" or possibly even "what we were told we needed is what we got, even though it was actually something we not only didn't need but actually needed not to have". Think about it.
The fact President Trump is now president ought to act as a wake up call for many who were complacent about politics. I’m not hunting and pecking a thousand words on this tablet to explain but sometimes you need a particular action to have a strong counter reaction. I don’t look at Trump as a typical problem occurring on the simplistic and misleading conservative-liberal axis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
The irony, of course, is that voting for either Brexit and Trump is a phenomenally stupid thing to do. Yeah, people were sick of letting "the elites" push them around (whatever that's supposed to mean). They were "tired of experts". The unwashed masses collectively stood up, declared "We don't need none o' yer stinkin' degrees!"

And look where that got us.

Britain has no idea what to do with Brexit, and they're getting closer and closer to the May 2019 deadline while the majority party is stuck infighting over what it wants (let alone what the EU will agree with). It's a complete clusterfuck, with nobody willing or able to do the myriad things necessary to ensure that Britain's departure from the EU doesn't end in utter catastrophe.

If Trump doesn't go down in history as the worst president of the modern era, I'll be pretty fucking surprised. His administration is easily the most corrupt and self-dealing in history, their policy goals are barely coherent when they exist at all, and the real damage of essentially destroying our executive branch from the DOE to the EPA, as well as the real damage of turning against our staunchest allies, probably won't be apparent until long after Trump is gone.

If our society no longer values stupid people, stupid people sure picked the exact wrong way to show us that we should value them.
Many are upset that the so-called stupid people didn’t mindlessly back the most qualified person ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
The U.S.'s international agreements will never be trusted again. There have been massive layoffs of career diplomats, government scientists, and government regulators. Not only has much institutional knowledge been lost but, according to reports, permanent destruction of certain scientific knowledge uncomfortable for polluters has been ordered.

A centrist judge and intellectual right-wing judge on SCOTUS have been replaced with youthful haters. Trump has divulged military and security secrets to our enemies. The specialness of the U.S.A., long looked up to as a bastion of freedom, has been lost. Amid a global tourism boom, tourism to the U.S. has plummeted so badly that the National Travel and Tourism Office has been ordered to stop publishing arrival data.

Federal debt is soaring again, with hundreds of billions passed through portals no longer subject to taxation. Polarization is so bad many old friends no longer speak to each other. Countries around the world are turning to China for leadership in trade and future planning.

If these are temporary changes, I'd hate to see what permanent changes look like.


Blame it all on an electoral happenstance that wasn't even the result of deliberate gerrymandering. The 46% were stupid, but the 48% were smarter. 48% - 46% = 2%; duh! Got it. I guess.



All the problems you mention are already widely discussed by rational thinkers. But the 38% aren't listening.



Octopus' haiku
It doesn't make any sense
Yes, I repeat, No
I like your poetry. But shouldn’t it be octopus’s ? Hmm. Then it wouldn’t be haiku. Ok, a dispensation for poetic license.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Why is donalds family name an lol? I try to cycle through different identifiers for him. You must have seen other names for him, maybe on other sites?

If corporations are people Fox news is a psychopath in your home. There is no functional difference. They have taken on many functions of a human being. Think about it.

If you want to talk about the retreat from reality, you have to start at fox.

The things we "needed"? The people who needed to know it have not realized that yet and think they are the ones saving the country somehow. From the "Mainstream" media or something. They are being lied to and misled. We need an enema, but what form does that take? You must know.
I just think all that is needlessly provocative and not at all accurate. Aside from Trump’s family name. Which is irrelevant but is apparently considered funny enough sounding to be used as a form of acceptable mockery.

Again, now that Trump is president the discussions and questions raised should help prevent someone even more chaotic from coming to power. In the US at least. Hopefully people have learned to take politics and discussion a bit more seriously.
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