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Old 08-19-2018, 09:50 PM
Warm blood Warm blood is offline
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Weinstein accuser accused of sexually assaulting a minor

Asia Argento, Who Accused Weinstein, Made Deal With Her Own Accuser

So she allegedly sexually assaulted a former child actor she had known a long time and previously worked with a few years back when he was 17 and she was 37. He claimed the encounter has caused him severe emotional distress in the aftermath and rendered him unable to work, so he prepared to sue her for damages but apparently she bought his silence for $380,000. Well now this has been revealed and neither party wants to comment on the matter.


Hmmm. Seeing as she and Rose McGowan were among the first of Weinstein’s victims go public with their own stories and became the unofficial mascots of the #MeToo movement, I wonder how this interesting tidbit about Ms. Argento is going to be covered. Will her hypocrisy be acknowledged at all? Will she be held to the same standard as the men who’ve been accused of sexual misconduct?
  #2  
Old 08-19-2018, 10:32 PM
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You're posting a link to a New York Times article about the subject and then asking how it will be reported and whether the media will go there.

I'd suggest that the answer is that it will be reported in the way that it is in fact being reported, in the article you included, and yes, they will go there seeing as they did.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 08-19-2018 at 10:33 PM.
  #3  
Old 08-19-2018, 10:42 PM
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1) Weinstein is a billionaire. His lawyers have the resources to examine his accusers lives with a fine tooth comb, and are doing so. No doubt they’ll find things on all of them, few people have lived saint like lives.

2) So what? Most victims of sex crimes aren’t model citizens. They are messed up people, often criminals themselves and not exactly those you’d invite home for dinner. In fact abusers and predators typically target such persons due to their vulnerability. They don’t go after normal well adjusted folks. Wonder why Weinstein was so respectful to the married mother of four, Meryl Streep?

As an aside, seems to be his lawyers strategy is that they will show that sexual favours and sexual quid pro quo were and are an accepted part of doing business in Hollywood. I must admit, i can’t really see where they hope to,go with this.
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Old 08-19-2018, 10:44 PM
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Well I guess we'll never know. It's well known that everything in the NY Times is fake news right? SO how do we know it happened at all. I mean that lying liberal piece of trash can't be trusted when it reports about a paragon of right wing virtue. What? [Emily Litella voice] Never mind

Last edited by OldGuy; 08-19-2018 at 10:45 PM.
  #5  
Old 08-19-2018, 10:54 PM
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"Unofficial mascots of the #MeToo movement"?

This has been reports about a series of crimes not sports coverage. We're not cheering on the sidelines as the Accusers battle it out with the Rapists to see which team will make the playoffs.
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Old 08-19-2018, 10:55 PM
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A fairly large number of people have been reported on, but the ones who received the most attention were the ones who did the most wrong, i.e. Weinstein and Kevin Spacey.

Asia Argento could end up receiving more coverage than others, on the basis that people love a good older woman, younger man story - witness all of the female teacher stories. Or she could become one name among the many, like Tom Brokaw.

Based on the current level of accusation, I would expect the story to fairly quickly pass since that would match what we have seen happen with most of the others who have been accused of sexual misconduct. If we find out that she was a serial offender, then it would be reasonable to expect a plethora of articles on the subject.

If there aren't a bunch more accusers, and yet this story gets a bunch of heavy press coverage, then that would not be because there is more to tell, but simply that people there were a lot of clicks on the article headline, and the media sensed money to be made by re-posting on the subject. That tells you less about Ms. Argento than it does about what sorts of topic excite the average person.
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Old 08-19-2018, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Warm blood View Post
I wonder how this interesting tidbit about Ms. Argento is going to be covered.
...you've answered your own question.

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Will her hypocrisy be acknowledged at all?
What hypocrisy?

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Will she be held to the same standard as the men who’ve been accused of sexual misconduct?
What is "the same standard as the men"?

What is it, do you think "the standard" should be?
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:39 PM
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1) Weinstein is a billionaire. His lawyers have the resources to examine his accusers lives with a fine tooth comb, and are doing so. No doubt they’ll find things on all of them, few people have lived saint like lives.

2) So what? Most victims of sex crimes aren’t model citizens. They are messed up people, often criminals themselves and not exactly those you’d invite home for dinner. In fact abusers and predators typically target such persons due to their vulnerability. They don’t go after normal well adjusted folks. Wonder why Weinstein was so respectful to the married mother of four, Meryl Streep?

As an aside, seems to be his lawyers strategy is that they will show that sexual favours and sexual quid pro quo were and are an accepted part of doing business in Hollywood. I must admit, i can’t really see where they hope to,go with this.
How interesting that possibly being guilty of sexual assaulting a minor is merely dismissed as “not having lived a sainted life” or being less than a “model citizen”. That’s not the language I see used when the genders are reversed.


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"Unofficial mascots of the #MeToo movement"?

This has been reports about a series of crimes not sports coverage. We're not cheering on the sidelines as the Accusers battle it out with the Rapists to see which team will make the playoffs.
What are you talking about? I made the observation that Argento and McGowan are the faces of the #MeToo movement for reasons that shouldn’t need to be explained to anyone who hasn’t lived under a rock for the past year, and you’re on a weird tangent about cheering for a side.



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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
A fairly large number of people have been reported on, but the ones who received the most attention were the ones who did the most wrong, i.e. Weinstein and Kevin Spacey.

Asia Argento could end up receiving more coverage than others, on the basis that people love a good older woman, younger man story - witness all of the female teacher stories. Or she could become one name among the many, like Tom Brokaw.

Based on the current level of accusation, I would expect the story to fairly quickly pass since that would match what we have seen happen with most of the others who have been accused of sexual misconduct. If we find out that she was a serial offender, then it would be reasonable to expect a plethora of articles on the subject.

If there aren't a bunch more accusers, and yet this story gets a bunch of heavy press coverage, then that would not be because there is more to tell, but simply that people there were a lot of clicks on the article headline, and the media sensed money to be made by re-posting on the subject. That tells you less about Ms. Argento than it does about what sorts of topic excite the average person.
What sets this story this story apart from all the others of its ilk is that:

1) The accuser is someone who’s been in the spotlight for coming forward about being sexually assaulted by a much more powerful person. Now it’s alleged that she may have done the exact same thing to someone else not in the distant past, but fairly recently.
2) An accusation is just that, an accusation. But paying off your accuser in response to their threats to sue you will look suspicious to most people.

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What hypocrisy?
If it’s not blindingly obvious to you, the hypocrisy of decrying sexual predators whilst being one. As for which standard, the standard of being automatically assumed guilty on the basis of an accusation.

Some of these knee-jerk responses are rather telling.

Last edited by Warm blood; 08-19-2018 at 11:41 PM.
  #9  
Old 08-19-2018, 11:46 PM
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I'll be the cynic and say: The 17yo who claims to be so traumatized because he got laid by an attractive 37yo, was looking for a payday.
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:47 PM
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Admittedly my fault for not clarifying the point of this thread being posted in GD, but what I wanted to inquire apart from whether Asia's gender and high-profile nature as a known victim of sexual assault will affect how this story is covered and how people react to it, is whether this stands a chance of damaging MeToo's rep given that Asia is so strongly tied to it, especially if she doesn’t receive the same level of rebuke that men accused of sexual misconduct (even by just one accuser) have, and whether social movements that are social media based have a responsibility to be more careful about whom they allow to represent them.

Also, if movements meant to rep sexual assault victims should distance themselves from famous victims that are also exposed as predators, or is it fair that they rep everyone with the philosophy that no victim is perfect (although this is a very, very slippery slope) and people have to learn to sympathize with the victims regardless of what they did.
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:50 PM
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If it’s not blindingly obvious to you, the hypocrisy of decrying sexual predators whilst being one.
...Nope. Not seeing the hypocrisy. Over 80 women have accused Harvey Weinstein of rape, sexual assault and sexual abuse, including Argento herself. Would the correct thing for her to do was remain silent, lest she later be "accused of hypocrisy"? Did lending her voice in support of the other women who were either raped, sexually assaulted or abused the wrong thing for her to do?

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Some of these knee-jerk responses are rather telling.
It is entirely fair to characterize the OP as "knee-jerk." The responses? Not so much.
  #12  
Old 08-20-2018, 12:05 AM
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is whether this stands a chance of damaging MeToo's rep given that Asia is so strongly tied to it,
...the only people who are interested in damaging the rep of #metoo are the people who decry and complain about it anyway. #metoo is too fucking big for this to do any damage. You've heard their voices right? You've been listening to what they have to say? Those who use #metoo are only too fucking aware that not everybody who uses the hashtag is perfect. So no: this isn't going to hurt the hashtag one bit.

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especially if she doesn’t receive the same level of rebuke that men accused of sexual misconduct (even by just one accuser) have,
George Takei only had one accuser. So if you want a benchmark then we've got it. What happened to George Takei?

I've already seen some prominent feminists I follow on twitter condemn this. How many are you following? How are you going to determine if the "outrage" is acceptable or not?

Or maybe look at Michael Jackson. Multiple accusers, lots of payouts,found not guilty. Did the payouts make a difference? Should they have found him guilty because the payouts prove that he was guilty of something?

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and whether social movements that are social media based have a responsibility to be more careful about whom they allow to represent them.
We are talking about a hashtag. How does a hashtag have a responsibility? What is it that you want the hashtag to do?
  #13  
Old 08-20-2018, 12:13 AM
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I'll be the cynic and say: The 17yo who claims to be so traumatized because he got laid by an attractive 37yo, was looking for a payday.
Are you actually suggesting that a male can't be a victim of sexual assault by a female?

If you bother to read the article you would see that Bennett first met her at the age of 7 when they were cast in a film together. She would have been 27 at the time. If he got laid by her at the age of 7 would you still think he was just looking for a payday?

From the article:
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In interviews and subsequent social media posts between the two over the years, they referred to each other as mother and son.

On May 9, 2013, the day they met for a reunion in her room at a Ritz-Carlton in Marina del Rey, Calif., she posted on Instagram: “Waiting for my long lost son my love @jimmymbennett in trepidation #marinadelrey smoking cigarettes like there was no next week.”
Sorry, but if this happened as described, Argento fucked up and has serious issues.

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Old 08-20-2018, 12:16 AM
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...Nope. Not seeing the hypocrisy.
Not in the least bit surprised this is your view.

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George Takei only had one accuser. So if you want a benchmark then we've got it. What happened to George Takei?
George Takei's accuser recanted his accusation. Makes it hard to maintain the narrative that someone is a sexual predator when their only alleged victim is outed as an opportunistic liar.

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Or maybe look at Michael Jackson. Multiple accusers, lots of payouts,found not guilty. Did the payouts make a difference? Should they have found him guilty because the payouts prove that he was guilty of something?
Suddenly your standard for determining guilt changes. Whatever happened to believing the victim first?

I can no longer take you seriously on this topic, so I’d rather not further engage with you.
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:28 AM
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What sets this story this story apart from all the others of its ilk is that:

1) The accuser is someone who’s been in the spotlight for coming forward about being sexually assaulted by a much more powerful person. Now it’s alleged that she may have done the exact same thing to someone else not in the distant past, but fairly recently.
2) An accusation is just that, an accusation. But paying off your accuser in response to their threats to sue you will look suspicious to most people.
I'd be reasonably happy to make it a crime to pay someone to keep quiet or to pay a blackmailer.

But, personally, on that angle I'm more concerned about David Pecker and other Catch and Kill artists than I am about Asia Argento. Ideally, the police will start an investigation into her, and she'll see some time for doing the same sort of thing as Weinstein. But there's a larger issue that law currently doesn't cover, and it should.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 08-20-2018 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:42 AM
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Not in the least bit surprised this is your view.
...and I'm not surprised that you aren't surprised.

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George Takei's accuser recanted his accusation.
He didn't recant immediately. We can compare the immediate reaction then with the immediate reaction now, can we not?

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Makes it hard to maintain the narrative that someone is a sexual predator when their only alleged victim is outed as an opportunistic liar.
Well if you don't want to use George Takei then who do you want to use? Set a benchmark. Otherwise you are simply waving your hands in the air.

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Suddenly your standard for determining guilt changes. Whatever happened to believing the victim first?
Cite for this please. You've accused me of this before. All I can suggest is that you read my posts a bit more carefully because I take care, as much as I can, to hold a nuanced position.

I tend not to determine guilt. That isn't my job. I do hold opinions.

And I didn't determine guilt here. I asked you a question.

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I can no longer take you seriously on this topic, so I’d rather not further engage with you.
BYE!
  #17  
Old 08-20-2018, 01:04 AM
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What are you talking about? I made the observation that Argento and McGowan are the faces of the #MeToo movement for reasons that shouldn’t need to be explained to anyone who hasn’t lived under a rock for the past year, and you’re on a weird tangent about cheering for a side.
No, you did not just make an observation. You specifically used the word "mascot". Cheering on the sidelines is what mascots do. If you didn't want that connection made, I guess you shouldn't have made it.

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If it’s not blindingly obvious to you, the hypocrisy of decrying sexual predators whilst being one. As for which standard, the standard of being automatically assumed guilty on the basis of an accusation.
Thieves get robbed. Murderers get murdered. And rapists get raped. The fact that Argento committed a sex crime against somebody else doesn't disprove her accusations that Weinstein committed a sex crime against her.

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Some of these knee-jerk responses are rather telling.
It's pretty obvious that anything anyone said - or nothing being said at all - would all be telling you the same message.
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:23 AM
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No, you did not just make an observation. You specifically used the word "mascot". Cheering on the sidelines is what mascots do. If you didn't want that connection made, I guess you shouldn't have made it.
If you want to be needlessly pedantic to miss the point, that’s on you.


Quote:
Thieves get robbed. Murderers get murdered. And rapists get raped. The fact that Argento committed a sex crime against somebody else doesn't disprove her accusations that Weinstein committed a sex crime against her.

Where did I insinuate that these allegations against her weaken the credibility of her accusations against Weinstein? Are you confused about what hypocrisy means?
  #19  
Old 08-20-2018, 01:39 AM
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Argento fucked up and has serious issues.
Anyone who actually knows anything about her already knows she has serious issues. And yes, this is a serious fuck up.

It in no way invalidates the #metoo movement. Quite the opposite.
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Old 08-20-2018, 02:09 AM
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2) So what? Most victims of sex crimes aren’t model citizens. They are messed up people, often criminals themselves and not exactly those you’d invite home for dinner. In fact abusers and predators typically target such persons due to their vulnerability. They don’t go after normal well adjusted folks. Wonder why Weinstein was so respectful to the married mother of four, Meryl Streep?
As I read this post, I'm picturing Biff Tannen from Back to the Future under a truckload of manure.
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Old 08-20-2018, 03:40 AM
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Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:16 AM
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As far as I can tell, Weinsteins lawyer's strategy is to show that "having sex with producers was just a part of the job". And that therefore consent was given, or could reasonably be presumed.

Its a novel approach, I'll give them that.
  #23  
Old 08-20-2018, 08:50 AM
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As far as I can tell, Weinsteins lawyer's strategy is to show that "having sex with producers was just a part of the job". And that therefore consent was given, or could reasonably be presumed.

Its a novel approach, I'll give them that.
Sadly, he has a point, that has been the Hollywood way since before talkies. Thankfully I don't think it is going to be a good enough point to get him cleared.
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Old 08-20-2018, 09:53 AM
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Sadly, he has a point, that has been the Hollywood way since before talkies. Thankfully I don't think it is going to be a good enough point to get him cleared.
Think they are hoping to put out just as much sordid information about the accusers, enough so a jury might say “oh a pox on both their houses”, and acquit.
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:10 AM
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As far as I can tell, Weinsteins lawyer's strategy is to show that "having sex with producers was just a part of the job". And that therefore consent was given, or could reasonably be presumed.

Its a novel approach, I'll give them that.
It's more than that.

Based on statements by knowledgeable people (of both genders), it appears that it's also common for females in Hollywood to proactively offer sexual favors in exchange for roles and career boosts. If that's what happened in the cases Weinstein was indicted for, then that would change the legal picture considerably.

Of course, the question is whether it was. But that appears to be the legal strategy, anyway.
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Old 08-20-2018, 11:30 AM
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Then they’re going to have to bank on all his accusers being rapists themselves. Short of that, whatever messiness the women have in their lives isn’t going to detract from what he’s alleged to have done to them. Bill Cosby attempted to go that route and it didn’t work.

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It's more than that.

Based on statements by knowledgeable people (of both genders), it appears that it's also common for females in Hollywood to proactively offer sexual favors in exchange for roles and career boosts. If that's what happened in the cases Weinstein was indicted for, then that would change the legal picture considerably.

Of course, the question is whether it was. But that appears to be the legal strategy, anyway.
I know he’s only facing indictment for the assault of two women, but do you not think the scores and scores of accusations and potential civil lawsuits against him isn’t going to heavily influence the jury’s view of him regardless of what dirt his team digs up on his accusers? Dozens of women can’t all be liars.
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:53 PM
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Most victims of sex crimes aren’t model citizens. They are messed up people, often criminals themselves and not exactly those you’d invite home for dinner.
This is false, and kind of a disgusting sentiment.
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:05 PM
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Am I the only one wondering is this had an impact on Anthony Bourdain's suicide?
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:13 PM
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This is false, and kind of a disgusting sentiment.
Really? And what’s your experience in dealing with sex crimes? Or criminal law, full stop?

You really have purchased into the idea of the ideal victim. The Disney princess, who is pure and pious and was violated by the vicious beasts. Sorry. Does not work that way. Rape victims are often prostitutes. Drug addicts. Petty thieves. And the occasional “good girl”. They all are entitled to have their day in court. The law protects the saints and the sinners equally.

Frankly it’s attitudes like yours which have made prosecuting sexual offences so difficult.
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:14 PM
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Am I the only one wondering is this had an impact on Anthony Bourdain's suicide?
You are not. I haven’t yet brought it up with anyone, but that was my first thought.

My second thought is that it’s not likely.
  #31  
Old 08-20-2018, 01:15 PM
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Anyone who actually knows anything about her already knows she has serious issues. And yes, this is a serious fuck up.

It in no way invalidates the #metoo movement. Quite the opposite.
I agree that this doesn't invalidate #metoo in any way.

Not sure who you think suggested it did.

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Am I the only one wondering is this had an impact on Anthony Bourdain's suicide?
No, you are not.

Last edited by Kolak of Twilo; 08-20-2018 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:15 PM
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Am I the only one wondering is this had an impact on Anthony Bourdain's suicide?
It didn't. He's still dead.
  #33  
Old 08-20-2018, 01:24 PM
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It's more than that.

Based on statements by knowledgeable people (of both genders), it appears that it's also common for females in Hollywood to proactively offer sexual favors in exchange for roles and career boosts. If that's what happened in the cases Weinstein was indicted for, then that would change the legal picture considerably.

Of course, the question is whether it was. But that appears to be the legal strategy, anyway.

Lots of sex workers* consider the occasional sexual assualt just part of the occupational hazards of the job. Unfortunately for the longest time the law courts took the same view and it often needed some aggravating factor for them to actually convict. Still causss problems. For decades the occasional “friendly pat on the bum”, was something secretaries' should take it stride and many took it.

None of the above is ok, was not ok then and is not now. Just same way, we should not tolerate or forgive people and culture which encourage or condone such proclivities. And frankly how can you say it’s actually “proactively seeking”, if the order of the day is that unless you offer yourself up to a producer, you won’t even be considered?

*Leaving aside for a moment arguments whether sex work is or should be legal.

Last edited by AK84; 08-20-2018 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:30 PM
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I agree that this doesn't invalidate #metoo in any way.
It doesn't. It tests the moral character of its participants. If they can't see that all victims are victims, but instead have to pick and choose which victims are "legitimate" victims, they prove themselves subhuman, which shouldn't damage the credibility of their cause.

Shouldn't.

This is similar to the case of Nimrod Reitman, another man victimized by a woman, who was also attacked on the basis of his gender:
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“Although we have no access to the confidential dossier, we have all worked for many years in close proximity to Professor Ronell,” the professors wrote in a draft letter posted on a philosophy blog in June. “We have all seen her relationship with students, and some of us know the individual who has waged this malicious campaign against her.”
"We know the accused and they wouldn't do that!" is a common claim of the people who wish to perpetuate the cycle of victimization and silence.

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“I am of course very supportive of what Title IX and the #MeToo movement are trying to do, of their efforts to confront and to prevent abuses, for which they also seek some sort of justice,” Professor Davis wrote in an email. “But it’s for that very reason that it’s so disappointing when this incredible energy for justice is twisted and turned against itself, which is what many of us believe is happening in this case.”
And there it is: Protecting males from females is "twisted" somehow, unnatural, unjust, in the minds of the people who otherwise champion the idea of bringing sexual assault perpetrators and rapists to justice.

It's "equity versus equality" in a way: The equality case is simple, based on individual rights to bodily autonomy and dignity, whereas the equity case rests on historical abuses and the notion that previously dispossessed groups must be allowed to "get their own back" in a very real way. That's what all of these movements must struggle with, every single time members of the presumed "privileged" group (a gross misunderstanding, but a common one) seeks justice for wrongs done to them by a member of a presumed "unprivileged" group.
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  #35  
Old 08-20-2018, 01:52 PM
AK84 AK84 is online now
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It doesn't. It tests the moral character of its participants. If they can't see that all victims are victims, but instead have to pick and choose which victims are "legitimate" victims, they prove themselves subhuman, which shouldn't damage the credibility of their cause.

Shouldn't.

This is similar to the case of Nimrod Reitman, another man victimized by a woman, who was also attacked on the basis of his gender:"We know the accused and they wouldn't do that!" is a common claim of the people who wish to perpetuate the cycle of victimization and silence.

And there it is: Protecting males from females is "twisted" somehow, unnatural, unjust, in the minds of the people who otherwise champion the idea of bringing sexual assault perpetrators and rapists to justice.

It's "equity versus equality" in a way: The equality case is simple, based on individual rights to bodily autonomy and dignity, whereas the equity case rests on historical abuses and the notion that previously dispossessed groups must be allowed to "get their own back" in a very real way. That's what all of these movements must struggle with, every single time members of the presumed "privileged" group (a gross misunderstanding, but a common one) seeks justice for wrongs done to them by a member of a presumed "unprivileged" group.

Yeah. Hearing out all allegations is necessary. Believing all of them? Not so much.
The allegations made in your linked article are such that I am not surprised that at first impression they were not seen as totally believable. Since the accuser is half the age of the elderly accused, much bigger and not of accuseds perferred gender? And complaint was made after 2 years. Can’t you see why people might be skeptical for reason besides being a man hating feminist?
If I accept that people do bludgeon each other to death, it does not follow that if it is claimed that a person was beaten to death with a feather, that I am being hypocritical if I find the claim doubtful?

Of course, first impression is just that, a first impression. Deeper investigation can reveal, that no in fact unlawful activity did take place. As seems to be the case here.
  #36  
Old 08-20-2018, 01:55 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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Lots of sex workers* consider the occasional sexual assualt just part of the occupational hazards of the job. Unfortunately for the longest time the law courts took the same view and it often needed some aggravating factor for them to actually convict. Still causss problems. For decades the occasional “friendly pat on the bum”, was something secretaries' should take it stride and many took it.

None of the above is ok, was not ok then and is not now. Just same way, we should not tolerate or forgive people and culture which encourage or condone such proclivities.
This seems to be conflating two things.

You're discussing a situation where someone offered themselves for sex in some instances and then was assaulted in a completely separate instance. I was discussing a situation where someone was claiming to have been assaulted in the exact same instance where they in reality offered themselves.

Quote:
And frankly how can you say it’s actually “proactively seeking”, if the order of the day is that unless you offer yourself up to a producer, you won’t even be considered?
I don't think that is or ever was the "order of the day", but even if it was that wouldn't change anything.
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The allegations made in your linked article are such that I am not surprised that at first impression they were not seen as totally believable. Since the accuser is half the age of the elderly accused, much bigger and not of accuseds perferred gender? And complaint was made after 2 years. Can’t you see why people might be skeptical for reason besides being a man hating feminist?
To the contrary, the very factors you cite here are self-defeating.

In the vast majority of the me-too cases, the allegation is not that the perpetrator physically overpowered the victim, but rather that he held some position of influence over the victim, exactly as is the case here. And in the (vast?) majority, far more than 2 years elapsed between alleged abuse and allegations.

The fact that you could even cite these as reasons for doubt in comparison with other instances is remarkable.

Last edited by Fotheringay-Phipps; 08-20-2018 at 02:00 PM.
  #37  
Old 08-20-2018, 04:08 PM
Reindeer Flotilla Reindeer Flotilla is offline
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1) So what? Most victims of sex crimes aren’t model citizens. They are messed up people, often criminals themselves and not exactly those you’d invite home for dinner.
I think the message that victims of rape are bad people does a service to rapists, helping them immensely. Victims will think that if they report the crime, everyone will find out they're "messed up people, often criminals", and they're the kind of person decent non-raped people certainly wouldn't "invite home for dinner".

In other words AK84, I think you just played the 'victims of sexual assault were just asking for it' card.
  #38  
Old 08-20-2018, 04:24 PM
Derleth Derleth is online now
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The allegations made in your linked article are such that I am not surprised that at first impression they were not seen as totally believable. Since the accuser is half the age of the elderly accused, much bigger and not of accuseds perferred gender? And complaint was made after 2 years.
All of these points, except the claim about preferred gender, are points #MeToo is working to make less relevant as regards sexual violence: Age differential is a part of power differential, as in political power, which negates or greatly reduces the need for physical force in getting away with sexual assault. In short, don't you imagine any one of a dozen starlets could have kicked Weinstein the groin? Yet they didn't, and even bringing that possibility up is rightly seen as somewhere between tone-deaf and utterly victim-blaming. That wasn't how Weinstein operated because he had other avenues of power over his victims.

Well, the same obtained with the woman who assaulted Reitman. The fact she still has defenders proves she had the political power necessary to assault someone without having to physically overpower them.

Quote:
Of course, first impression is just that, a first impression. Deeper investigation can reveal, that no in fact unlawful activity did take place. As seems to be the case here.
Well, if I got anything at all from that incoherent mess, it's that your mind is already made up. Another thing #MeToo is working to stop.
  #39  
Old 08-20-2018, 05:10 PM
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Certain people in this thread were outraged at the mere suggestion that Argento would not be judged as harshly due to her gender, and yet... https://mobile.twitter.com/rosemcgow...35197433602048

Where was that call for gentleness when men who were accused were instantly thrown under the bus?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlDuh4yUYAA-FXa?format=jpg

Suddenly, believing survivors no longer matters, Rose?


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Originally Posted by psychobunny View Post
Am I the only one wondering is this had an impact on Anthony Bourdain's suicide?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
You are not. I haven’t yet brought it up with anyone, but that was my first thought.

My second thought is that it’s not likely.
His lawyer (who is currently managing his estate) also represents Argento and helped facilitate the payment to her accuser. So he is kind of linked to this case and some are wondering if he had knowledge of the accusation against his girlfriend, and whether this knowledge played a role in his suicide.

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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
Really? And what’s your experience in dealing with sex crimes? Or criminal law, full stop?

You really have purchased into the idea of the ideal victim. The Disney princess, who is pure and pious and was violated by the vicious beasts. Sorry. Does not work that way. Rape victims are often prostitutes. Drug addicts. Petty thieves. And the occasional “good girl”. They all are entitled to have their day in court. The law protects the saints and the sinners equally.

Frankly it’s attitudes like yours which have made prosecuting sexual offences so difficult.
Are we comparing sex workers, drug addicts and petty criminals to child abuse? Really?
  #40  
Old 08-20-2018, 05:41 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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When people attack the credibility of people claiming that they have been assaulted, such as in the Cosby and Weinstein cases, the point is often made that predators do make a point of choosing vulnerable people as targets, such as people with money problems, mental health problems, addictions, histories of sex work, and other characteristics that can be used to question their credibility.


Thus, vulnerable people become twice or thrice victimized.

Isn’t that what AK was referring to?

Last edited by Acsenray; 08-20-2018 at 05:41 PM.
  #41  
Old 08-20-2018, 06:14 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
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Based on statements by knowledgeable people (of both genders), it appears that it's also common for females in Hollywood to proactively offer sexual favors in exchange for roles and career boosts. If that's what happened in the cases Weinstein was indicted for, then that would change the legal picture considerably.
How would you feel if you were working in a business and you found that the only people who got good jobs were those who were willing to have sex with the boss? Even if they were doing it voluntarily?

Do you feel that your unwillingness to have sex with your boss should be a factor in holding you back from success in your chosen profession?

Do you feel that there should be different standards based on whether the employees and bosses in question are men or women?

If you were the owner of a company, how would you feel if the person you hired to manage your company was making business decisions based on whether or not your employees were offering sex?
  #42  
Old 08-20-2018, 06:17 PM
Tamerlane Tamerlane is offline
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I think the message that victims of rape are bad people does a service to rapists, helping them immensely.
I don't think he is saying that at all. He's saying that many victims of sexual crime can be flawed people and it makes absolutely no difference if they are. They were still the victims of crime.

Quote:
In other words AK84, I think you just played the 'victims of sexual assault were just asking for it' card.
If I am remembering correctly AK84 is a lawyer that has worked with a number of victims of sexual crime. I rather doubt that his opinion. I think you are reading his comments in an as uncharitable view as possible.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 08-20-2018 at 06:18 PM.
  #43  
Old 08-20-2018, 06:49 PM
Reindeer Flotilla Reindeer Flotilla is offline
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If I am remembering correctly AK84 is a lawyer that has worked with a number of victims of sexual crime. I rather doubt that his opinion. I think you are reading his comments in an as uncharitable view as possible.
Possibly. Certainly worth withdrawing my conclusion due to the uncertainty. However since victims of sexual assault suffer physiological damage, claims that physiological damage lead to the sexual assault bothers me for some reason. And in looking through the thread I see I'm not the only one.
  #44  
Old 08-20-2018, 06:57 PM
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Eonwe Eonwe is offline
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Really? And what’s your experience in dealing with sex crimes? Or criminal law, full stop?
Oh, please, tell me how your personal or professional experience makes you an expert on the demographics of “most victims of sex crimes”. Full stop.

Quote:
You really have purchased into the idea of the ideal victim. The Disney princess, who is pure and pious and was violated by the vicious beasts. Sorry. Does not work that way. Rape victims are often prostitutes. Drug addicts. Petty thieves. And the occasional “good girl”. They all are entitled to have their day in court. The law protects the saints and the sinners equally.
Stating that, in general, victims of sexual crimes are not necessarily going to be people I wouldn’t invite into my house means I’ve bought a fairy story?

Show me the statistic that most victims of sexual crimes are addicts and prostitutes. I’ll wait.

Quote:
Frankly it’s attitudes like yours which have made prosecuting sexual offences so difficult.
Frankly, your “expertise” is actually about a very narrow sub-set of women who are victims of sexual crimes, and your ham-handed attempt to to present yourself as an expert on sexual violence in general falls flat. You’re out of your element, Donny.

read up a little about the statiatics and then let me know how 1 in 6 American women are not welcome in your house.
  #45  
Old 08-20-2018, 07:37 PM
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Sex crimes are sufficiently prevalent that I think it's safe to say that most women who were victimized don't end up as criminals nor prostitutes.

This survey puts sexual assault victimization at 27% of the (female) populace:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ual-harassment

It's reasonable to say that prostitutes are not 27% of the population.

Certainly there's a correlation between sexual assault and poor life outcomes, but it's not a foregone conclusion.
  #46  
Old 08-20-2018, 08:21 PM
Itchy Toe Itchy Toe is offline
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I have no idea who this person is or why she is famous. The only thing google tells me is Weinstein jerked off in front of her and she has shitty tattoos.
  #47  
Old 08-20-2018, 08:30 PM
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I have no idea who this person is or why she is famous. The only thing google tells me is Weinstein jerked off in front of her and she has shitty tattoos.
Thank you for sharing.



Asia was popular in the 90s into the 2000s in B films and foreign films. She was a poor man's Angelina Jolie for a while. Also her father was a fairly good Italian director, Dario Argento who directed the excellent movie Suspiria.
  #48  
Old 08-20-2018, 09:01 PM
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Thank you for sharing.



Asia was popular in the 90s into the 2000s in B films and foreign films. She was a poor man's Angelina Jolie for a while. Also her father was a fairly good Italian director, Dario Argento who directed the excellent movie Suspiria.
And she worked with her accuser when he was nine in what is now an aptly named move: “The Heart Is Deceitful Above All Things.
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  #49  
Old 08-20-2018, 09:09 PM
Magiver Magiver is online now
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...Nope. Not seeing the hypocrisy. Over 80 women have accused Harvey Weinstein of rape, sexual assault and sexual abuse, including Argento herself.
The other 80 women have nothing whatsoever to do with the hypocrisy of one of the accusers committing the same crime.
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  #50  
Old 08-20-2018, 09:34 PM
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The other 80 women have nothing whatsoever to do with the hypocrisy of one of the accusers committing the same crime.
...you removed the context from what I said. Please try again.
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