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Old 09-08-2018, 10:04 AM
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Is skipping out on a date and leaving them with the food bill a (literal) crime?

I was reading this article of a guy in California who made it a habit of running out on dates and leaving them to pay the dinner bill (often a substantial bill). Basically he would meet them online and get them to commit to a dinner date, often at an expensive restaurants, and would then make some excuse to leave the table and then ditch them leaving the woman to pay the bill.

The article mentions that four charges of extortion have been brought against this guy which could land him in jail for 16+ years for doing this.

No question this guy is a world class asshole but is what he did really a crime? And if it is a crime would it be extortion? I thought extortion was obtaining something via threat. I am not seeing where he threatened anyone here. On top of that 16 years in prison (potentially) would seem excessive for this.

I wonder if there is even a civil case to be had here. Is there a contract being broken when you take a woman on a date if you do not pay for the bill?

Again, I want to be crystal clear this guy is a total ass and if nothing else just having to deal with facing criminal charges seems a form of justice he had coming. Still though...extortion???
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 09-08-2018 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 09-08-2018, 10:13 AM
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IANAL, but if he agreed beforehand to pay for the entire meal, then I suppose he could be charged with Theft by Deception. OTOH, if there was no discussion beforehand on who would pay the bill, then I am skeptical he could be charged with anything.
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Old 09-08-2018, 10:22 AM
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Sixteen years definitely seems a bit severe, I mean some killers don't get that long a sentence, that said I doubt he gets a sentence close to that long unless the judge is making some insane example out of him.
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Old 09-08-2018, 10:35 AM
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OTOH, if there was no discussion beforehand on who would pay the bill, then I am skeptical he could be charged with anything.

If there was no discussion beforehand, then there would be no expectation that the woman would be paying for his meal, which is the theory they seem to be going with:

Quote:
"In short, the defendant's wrongful conduct induced innocent third parties to pay for his meal, using the implied threat of public humiliation or being viewed as an accomplice," a criminal complaint says.

And it's that "threat of public humiliation" that's probably behind the extortion part.

But at a minimum, he is guilty of stealing his meal, regardless of who paid, because he had no reasonable expectation that his date would be paying.
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Old 09-08-2018, 10:50 AM
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If there was no discussion beforehand, then there would be no expectation that the woman would be paying for his meal, which is the theory they seem to be going with.
What if there was no discussion beforehand on who would pay, and the woman walked out? Should she be charged with something?
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Old 09-08-2018, 11:15 AM
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I noted at the bottom of the article that he's also being charged with multiple counts of petty theft, not just the scamming. I suspect the 'max sentence' is derived from simply adding together a lot of possible max short sentences.

It is a tricky one; there is a social expectation that if you invite someone out for dinner, you'll be paying, independent of the (imo thoroughly outdated) expectation that the man will pay. Inviting someone for an expensive dinner then secretly leaving without paying any of the bill definitely seems like it's a form of scamming by deception, regardless of the gender of the people involved.

Being invited then leaving without paying, not so much (for a start, it also raises the likelihood of the invite being of the 'I'll buy you dinner then you gotta sleep with me' skeevy kind where walking out is a reasonable response).

I'd say inviting someone on a date, without other discussion of payment, could reasonably be interpreted an offer to pay for the whole thing, but it definitely implies the inviter will at least pay their own way.

Last edited by Filbert; 09-08-2018 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 09-08-2018, 11:23 AM
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Absolute dick moves on his part so I could fully support a theft by deception charge. Not sure about extortion, but that's the prosecutors call.

And yes, if a woman repeatedly goes out with people with the intent of skipping out before the bill is due then she should be charged too.

In both cases it would be a steep uphill battle to prove without there having been multiple occurrences. Otherwise it would just be a he said - she said argument that the other was being totally inappropriate/skeavy to the point that they felt they would be in danger if they had stayed.
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Old 09-08-2018, 11:25 AM
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And it's that "threat of public humiliation" that's probably behind the extortion part.
Seems to me the woman, being the person still at the table, has an obligation to the restaurant to pay the bill.

The restaurant does not ascertain who is paying for what at the beginning of a meal. They serve the table and expect someone will pay.

Yes the guy running out and sticking her with the bill is a super-dick move but that does not absolve the people left at the table (in this case the woman) from settling with the restaurant.

I suppose she could try and explain the situation to the manager and hope for some sympathy but that is about it. If she tries walking out without paying I would think the restaurant could call the police on her.

The question is does the "threat" that the restaurant will call the police count as extortion? Seems a reach to me.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 09-08-2018 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 09-08-2018, 11:48 AM
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I'll bet he doesn't get many second dates.
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Old 09-08-2018, 11:57 AM
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I completely agree the man in this case is a complete a-hole. Especially because he allegedly does this routinely to embarrass his dates.

Walking out on a bad date isn't anything new. I'm thankful it never happened to me. But I recall a few times that I wondered if my date had ditched me. Bathroom breaks can seem to last forever when you're nervous and unsure how a first date is going.

I'm a little conflicted over criminal prosecution. It seems like this situation could be handled in small claims court. It should be possible to get compensation for at least half the bill.

This guy obviously has problems. Ditching a date should be the last possible option. The old phone call from a roommate trick is tailor made to excuse yourself, put money on the table, and leave. That certainly shows more class than just disappearing and leaving someone to pay the whole bill.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-08-2018 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 09-08-2018, 11:58 AM
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On a related note,

If I'm the date left with the bill and I pay for only what I personally ordered do they have a case for theft against me becuase I didn't pay the whole tab?
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Old 09-08-2018, 12:22 PM
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On a related note,

If I'm the date left with the bill and I pay for only what I personally ordered do they have a case for theft against me becuase I didn't pay the whole tab?
All you can do is explain the situation to the manager or assistant manager. Try to work something out.

I went to college in a small town. There were only a few restaurants and the staff quickly recognized regular customers. I'm sure they'd be more sympathetic. Credit cards get declined or people leave their wallet at home. Stuff happens and a restaurant should be flexible with regular customers. Work something out. Let them come in the next day and pay.

They know you're good for the money. Otherwise you could never visit that restaurant again.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-08-2018 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 09-08-2018, 12:29 PM
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Seems to me the woman, being the person still at the table, has an obligation to the restaurant to pay the bill.

The restaurant does not ascertain who is paying for what at the beginning of a meal. They serve the table and expect someone will pay.

Yes the guy running out and sticking her with the bill is a super-dick move but that does not absolve the people left at the table (in this case the woman) from settling with the restaurant.

I suppose she could try and explain the situation to the manager and hope for some sympathy but that is about it. If she tries walking out without paying I would think the restaurant could call the police on her.
Yes, but if they both walked out, it doesn't seem right that she would be culpable and he not just because he walked out first.

What if, after he walked out, she paid for her own meal but not his?

Last edited by Thudlow Boink; 09-08-2018 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 09-08-2018, 12:30 PM
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On a related note,

If I'm the date left with the bill and I pay for only what I personally ordered do they have a case for theft against me becuase I didn't pay the whole tab?
I agree with aceplace57 that it is likely you can work something out with the restaurant. Usually they are reasonable, particularly in a higher-end restaurant (although tip your server on the full amount).

That said I think (I do not know, IANAL) if they restaurant wanted to press it they could insist the full check be paid by whoever is left.
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Old 09-08-2018, 12:30 PM
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All you can do is explain the situation to the manager or assistant manager. Try to work something out.

I went to college in a small town. There were only a few restaurants and the staff quickly recognized regular customers. I'm sure they'd be more sympathetic. Credit cards get declined or people leave their wallet at home. Stuff happens and a restaurant should be flexible with regular customers. Work something out. Let them come in the next day and pay.

They know you're good for the money. Otherwise you could never visit that restaurant again.
Of course, and the few times I've forgotten my wallet or the CC machine was down it happened to be at places I was a regular and there was never an issue.

I'm asking if I would be considered obligated, by law or by the resteraunt, to pay for my companions share if they skipped on me as these people were skipped on. I figure if they weren't obligated than it would be closer to theft of service more than theft by deception.


Eta

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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
I agree with aceplace57 that it is likely you can work something out with the restaurant. Usually they are reasonable, particularly in a higher-end restaurant (although tip your server on the full amount).

That said I think (I do not know, IANAL) if they restaurant wanted to press it they could insist the full check be paid by whoever is left.
yes, but with what authority? I'm trying to find out where the obligation to pay for someone else comes from. It's not my fault, or the establishments, that this person took off.

Last edited by K2500; 09-08-2018 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 09-08-2018, 12:31 PM
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The latest victim of this dine & dash dater had her meal comped by restaurant management.

I doubt there is a crime here, but small claims court would likely rule the victim's favor, for at least the cost of the ditcher's meal.
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Old 09-08-2018, 12:51 PM
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Why did he even bother bringing a date? He probably could've done the same thing alone.
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Old 09-08-2018, 01:06 PM
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yes, but with what authority? I'm trying to find out where the obligation to pay for someone else comes from. It's not my fault, or the establishments, that this person took off.
Same authority any merchant has...they call the police.

The restaurant provided a service and they are due to be paid for it. They do not contract with the table before dinner to determine who will be paying. Maybe if you expressly tell them you are splitting the check (as sometimes happens) you could make a good case to pay only your portion because then the server has been tracking who had what.
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Old 09-08-2018, 02:16 PM
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It's a simple 2x2 decision box, so four cases:

1. The Bolter and Boltee did not agree at any time on payment.
2. The Bolter agreed to pay both.
3. The Bolter and Boltee agreed to split.
4. The Boltee agreed to pay both.

4. Is not relevant. Jerk behavior, but not something of interest to courts.

1, 2 and 3 all mean the Bolter stiffed the restaurant of his share. And in case 2 he stiffed the Boltee as well. Stiffing a restaurant is a crime against the restaurant. Stiffing the Boltee may or may not be considered a crime of the fraud variety, but it could be a civil matter.

Doing this once may not be worth the local PD/DA's time. Doing it repeatedly could get their attention. Note that people get threatened all the time with a big sentence. The goal is to "encourage" a plea deal to something more reasonable. Probably a fine, probation and a requirement to pay people back.

Plea deals are the lifeblood of the current justice system in the US. It's a game. Like with decision boxes ...
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Old 09-08-2018, 03:57 PM
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Same authority any merchant has...they call the police.

The restaurant provided a service and they are due to be paid for it. They do not contract with the table before dinner to determine who will be paying. Maybe if you expressly tell them you are splitting the check (as sometimes happens) you could make a good case to pay only your portion because then the server has been tracking who had what.
Just becuase they're due payment doesn't mean its due from me.

Calling the cops doesn't create an obligation to pay for things another person ordered either, so far as I'm aware.
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Old 09-08-2018, 04:16 PM
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Why did he even bother bringing a date? He probably could've done the same thing alone.
If he did it alone, it would definitely be a crime. It's considered petty theft in California & in Mississippi it's a felony if the bill is over $25. He did it with a date, so that technically it wouldn't be a crime for him since she was there stuck with the bill.

I'm guessing it's a grey area of the law because there are very few people who are this creatively dickish, so it hasn't been tested.
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Old 09-08-2018, 04:17 PM
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Since this happened multiple times, each time initiated by him, it would seem pretty simple to demonstrate intent here. Perhaps that is why he is getting charged.
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Old 09-08-2018, 04:58 PM
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I wonder if this guy also considers himself an incel.
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Old 09-08-2018, 05:49 PM
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Just becuase they're due payment doesn't mean its due from me.

Calling the cops doesn't create an obligation to pay for things another person ordered either, so far as I'm aware.
Well, the police would make a determination of whether the restaurant should have the full bill paid. If the police think that is the case you can either pay the bill or they can arrest you for theft and let you sort it out in court.

Which would you choose?

(Note: It may well happen the police tell the merchant they do not get paid and let you go.)
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Old 09-08-2018, 06:55 PM
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Well, the police would make a determination of whether the restaurant should have the full bill paid. If the police think that is the case you can either pay the bill or they can arrest you for theft and let you sort it out in court.

Which would you choose?

(Note: It may well happen the police tell the merchant they do not get paid and let you go.)
I'm not arguing that they shouldn't have the full bill paid. I'm saying I'm not personally responsible for the entire tables bill. Anyways, it's highly unlikely I would wait around for the police in the first place. If I did they could try probably try and make me but I doubt they would, especially since I'm volunteering to pay for my share. If they pushed the issue I'd refuse and post a cash bond, then file against the establishment in civil court.
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Old 09-08-2018, 07:00 PM
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I heard/read elsewhere that he would get there first, order and eat, then leave as soon as she'd show up and she'd get an enormous bill. I don't know why the restaurant would make her pay for something she wasn't even on the premises for, but maybe they figured she was in on it, part of an elaborate scheme.
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Old 09-08-2018, 07:11 PM
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I'm not arguing that they shouldn't have the full bill paid. I'm saying I'm not personally responsible for the entire tables bill. Anyways, it's highly unlikely I would wait around for the police in the first place. If I did they could try probably try and make me but I doubt they would, especially since I'm volunteering to pay for my share. If they pushed the issue I'd refuse and post a cash bond, then file against the establishment in civil court.
To each their own.

I think if you speak to the manager chances are they'd either comp the whole thing or at most make you pay for your dinner (which is fair from their perspective).

That said I have been in some restaurants and seen where the manager (usually also the owner) demands full payment, will call the police, and not budged when there is some fuss over the bill (I do not know what the circumstances have been). These have usually been relatively inexpensive restaurants though and perhaps the owner/manager has been scammed too many times to be lenient.

In those cases I think the simplest route is to just pay the whole bill and be done with it. It will probably cost you less money and less time and less stress than making a fuss about it.

YMMV
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Old 09-08-2018, 07:22 PM
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I was also surprised to hear he was being charged with a crime. But I read that not only did he ditch "dates", he also walked out of hair salons without paying, once, still wearing their towel. I bet there were solo dinners as well as "dates". And i bet a lot merchants in the area were gunning to get him.
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Old 09-08-2018, 08:11 PM
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To each their own.

I think if you speak to the manager chances are they'd either comp the whole thing or at most make you pay for your dinner (which is fair from their perspective).

That said I have been in some restaurants and seen where the manager (usually also the owner) demands full payment, will call the police, and not budged when there is some fuss over the bill (I do not know what the circumstances have been). These have usually been relatively inexpensive restaurants though and perhaps the owner/manager has been scammed too many times to be lenient.

In those cases I think the simplest route is to just pay the whole bill and be done with it. It will probably cost you less money and less time and less stress than making a fuss about it.

YMMV
While this addresses the most diplomatic approach, as well as possible results at different establishments, it still doesn't address my original concern.

That concern is whether the person left behind actually owes money. Not whether the restaurant would like to be paid regardless of who does the paying, nor how to address the situation if it arises, nor the easiest way out, but if a person is actually obliged to pay for another person's order if they get skipped out on.
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Old 09-08-2018, 08:24 PM
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Why did he even bother bringing a date? He probably could've done the same thing alone.
Seems to me like he'd have a much better chance of getting away with it if he had a date. For one thing, he'd be less likely to be stopped on his way out, because servers might assume he was called away but the person at the table would take care of the bill. Second, since the date almost certainly would pay the bill, the restaurant wouldn't call the police or try to track him down.
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Old 09-08-2018, 09:03 PM
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While this addresses the most diplomatic approach, as well as possible results at different establishments, it still doesn't address my original concern.

That concern is whether the person left behind actually owes money. Not whether the restaurant would like to be paid regardless of who does the paying, nor how to address the situation if it arises, nor the easiest way out, but if a person is actually obliged to pay for another person's order if they get skipped out on.
I haven't seen any actual legal analysis on this issue, but my instinct would be that no, a person who showed up after the other guy had finished eating an entire meal and left wouldn't ultimately be legally responsible for the bill just because she sat at the table with him for a few minutes.
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Old 09-08-2018, 09:11 PM
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I haven't seen any actual legal analysis on this issue, but my instinct would be that no, a person who showed up after the other guy had finished eating an entire meal and left wouldn't ultimately be legally responsible for the bill just because she sat at the table with him for a few minutes.
Where does "a few minutes" come from? I'm not sure what this guy actually did in detail, but I thought the premise of the legal question was that they did eat together before one person skipped.
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Old 09-08-2018, 09:18 PM
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I wonder if this guy also considers himself an incel.
I don't see how it could be in any sense involuntary considering his actions.
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Old 09-08-2018, 09:41 PM
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Why did he even bother bringing a date? He probably could've done the same thing alone.
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Originally Posted by Enola Gay View Post
If he did it alone, it would definitely be a crime. It's considered petty theft in California & in Mississippi it's a felony if the bill is over $25. He did it with a date, so that technically it wouldn't be a crime for him since she was there stuck with the bill.

I'm guessing it's a grey area of the law because there are very few people who are this creatively dickish, so it hasn't been tested.
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Since this happened multiple times, each time initiated by him, it would seem pretty simple to demonstrate intent here. Perhaps that is why he is getting charged.
Maybe it was just a dollop of gratuitous virulent misogyny? Some woman ditched him in his past now all future "dates" will bear the brunt of his scorn. Free shit with a bonus of 'estrogenicide', win-win. (Extreme hyperbole, yes, but I just had to use that made up word).
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Old 09-08-2018, 09:52 PM
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Where does "a few minutes" come from? I'm not sure what this guy actually did in detail, but I thought the premise of the legal question was that they did eat together before one person skipped.
Post #26 suggested this was the case but with no backup or link.

Just gotta take their word for it.
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Old 09-08-2018, 10:41 PM
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I haven't seen any actual legal analysis on this issue, but my instinct would be that no, a person who showed up after the other guy had finished eating an entire meal and left wouldn't ultimately be legally responsible for the bill just because she sat at the table with him for a few minutes.
And if they had sat down together for the duration and one had skipped on the other?
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Old 09-08-2018, 11:34 PM
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It's a simple 2x2 decision box, ...
Not true. You need boxes for "one person thought there was an agreement but the other didn't". Of core relevance to this situation.
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Old 09-09-2018, 12:36 AM
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I'm glad law enforcement is looking at the bigger picture. From the article, and all bolding mine:

Paul Guadalupe Gonzales, 45, is accused of 11 counts of extortion and two counts of attempted extortion for allegedly luring women to nice restaurants, ordering food and vanishing -- sticking his victims with the bill.

Psychologist Lisa Strohman, who specializes in treating patients suffering from social media and technology-related problems, says the internet allows dating predators to cast a wide net.
The explosion of dating sites "puts it on overdrive," Strohman explains. "Predators can use technology now to manipulate, groom, lure and get people where they want them without any risk to themselves."

"In short, the defendant's wrongful conduct induced innocent third parties to pay for his meal, using the implied threat of public humiliation or being viewed as an accomplice," a criminal complaint says

Too many people are missing the point. This isn't a guy who met a woman he hated and stuck her with the bill; this is a pattern of behavior he repeated 11 times: lure a woman into meeting him at a pricey restaurant, order an expensive meal, and stick her with the bill. He obtained a free meal at expensive restaurants through false pretenses. That's extortion. The pattern of behavior is key here.

The possible punishment isn't as relevant as the amount of bail: $315,000. The court apparently sees him as a dash risk.
  #39  
Old 09-09-2018, 07:07 AM
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On the first afternoon of my first visit to St Martin, we stopped at a lolo (a little roadside restaurant) in Grand Case on our way home from the beach. We each had five or six beers and some appetizers. I realized I'd spent most of my cash at the beach when I noticed the "NO C.C." Sign.

I freaked out. I told my gf I had to run back to the room for cash. It was about a twenty minute drive and I had no idea how to get there. Somehow, I made it to the room. Then I realized my room key was in the beach bag at the restaurant. I dealt with that. Driving back, I picked up a hitchhiker (hoping he could help me find Grand Case). He asked if I wanted to share a joint he had. I did.

When I finally got back to the restaurant, my gf was relieved. She didn't realize till I'd actually left that I might never find my way. And the waitresses all gave me HELL. The entire time I'd been gone they had sat with my gf commiserating with her about men. Our bill came to Ä18, which I'd had all along. I thought it would be Ä100 or so.

I've been to that lolo each year since. A few longtime waitresses retell the story to new girls each time, adding crazy details they've created but believe.
  #40  
Old 09-09-2018, 07:20 AM
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The possible punishment isn't as relevant as the amount of bail: $315,000. The court apparently sees him as a dash risk.
I noticed that.

Even if nothing else has come of this it has cost him $31,500 to get bail (unless he could pay for it himself which I somehow doubt). That or he is sitting in prison awaiting trial. Assuming he could not write that check himself his actions have already cost him far more than he ever saved on meals by ditching these women.

Karma can be a bitch.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 09-09-2018 at 07:20 AM.
  #41  
Old 09-09-2018, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
The possible punishment isn't as relevant as the amount of bail: $315,000. The court apparently sees him as a dash risk.
:golf clap:
  #42  
Old 09-09-2018, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
On the first afternoon of my first visit to St Martin, we stopped at a lolo (a little roadside restaurant) in Grand Case on our way home from the beach. We each had five or six beers and some appetizers. I realized I'd spent most of my cash at the beach when I noticed the "NO C.C." Sign.

I freaked out. I told my gf I had to run back to the room for cash. It was about a twenty minute drive and I had no idea how to get there.
Looking at a map of Sr. Martin it does not seem possible to get lost.
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  #43  
Old 09-09-2018, 07:55 AM
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Looking at a map of Sr. Martin it does not seem possible to get lost.
Heh. I had no map. Leaving Grand Case I had to first figure out how to get to the main road and then which way to turn. One way I'd travel 1/4 way around the island, the other was 3/4 of the way. When I reached Marigot I had to deal with a roundabout and pick the correct arm to exit. In Cole Bay a wrong turn would have spun me around. Right before Simpson Bay another roundabout with three exit choices, two of which go into the interior of the island, one of those was the one I wanted.

I made all the right choices, then drove by our hotel's ramp. Reaching Phillipsburg, I realized what I'd done and turned around. I'd had a bucket of Caribs on the beach, several Ti' Ponch (high proof rum) on the beach, and six Presidentes at the lolo.

It was as near a thing to a miracle as I've ever experienced. A beautiful sunrise pales in comparison.


ETA: add in that the speed limit on most of these roads is 25-35 mph (signed in kph) and some of the roads are closer to goat paths.

Last edited by kayaker; 09-09-2018 at 07:57 AM.
  #44  
Old 09-09-2018, 08:19 AM
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Not true. You need boxes for "one person thought there was an agreement but the other didn't". Of core relevance to this situation.
In other words there wasn't an actual agreement. Still covered by the 2x2 box.
  #45  
Old 09-09-2018, 08:47 AM
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Since we're using the language of contract, remember that a contract requires knowledgeable acceptance. It's a pretty good argument to say that I didn't assent to pay for a meal that I had no idea took place hours before I arrived and eaten by a person I have just met for the first time.
  #46  
Old 09-09-2018, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kayaker View Post

I made all the right choices, then drove by our hotel's ramp. Reaching Phillipsburg, I realized what I'd done and turned around. I'd had a bucket of Caribs on the beach, several Ti' Ponch (high proof rum) on the beach, and six Presidentes at the lolo.
Making all the right choices would not involve driving under the influence. I love Lolos. Might have been there when you were doing this. Maybe Iím lucky you didnít hit me. The locals sure are. Local max BAC is 0.05 IIRC, and the gendarmes do in fact have sobriety check points. The lucky thing is not you finding your way around. It is you not irrevocably altering someoneís life.
  #47  
Old 09-09-2018, 03:06 PM
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I wonder if this guy also considers himself an incel.
If a pissed off woman shoots him in the crotch, then he'd be one.
  #48  
Old 09-09-2018, 05:03 PM
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I heard/read elsewhere that he would get there first, order and eat, then leave as soon as she'd show up and she'd get an enormous bill. I don't know why the restaurant would make her pay for something she wasn't even on the premises for, but maybe they figured she was in on it, part of an elaborate scheme.
I think this makes all the difference. IANAL, but if they sat a a table and dined together, they entered an implicit contract with the restaurant to pay for the services they were receiving. The exact nature of that contract is whatís under discussion.

But if a guest shows up after the meal, I donít see how she (or he) could conceivably be charged with theft of service, because she didnít receive any service. Which is not to say they couldnít try but I donít think theyíd have a case.
  #49  
Old 09-09-2018, 05:56 PM
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This guy also has a history of dashing out of hair salons without paying.

He's also apparently a hero to the intel/red-pill/MRA crowd, if you read the comments on almost any news article about him.
  #50  
Old 09-09-2018, 06:06 PM
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This guy also has a history of dashing out of hair salons without paying.
So it was a case of cut and run?
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