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Old 09-17-2018, 05:42 PM
Lamoral Lamoral is offline
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Are lots of Catholics going to migrate to the Orthodox Church?

I was thinking recently, regarding the scandals that have plagued the Catholic Church:

One one hand, American Catholics have these sexual abuse scandals horribly tarnishing the image of their church. On the other hand, they have a Pope who I get the impression is seen by many as being too liberal.

If I were an Orthodox clergyman who was tasked with trying to gain new members, I would be actively trying to recruit from this large pool of Catholics who are at once disaffected with the Pope and also feeling disgraced by the child-abuse issue. I would say, "come join the Orthodox Church, we are the oldest Christian church, we have the same veneration of the saints and the same old-school traditions, but without all the baggage of the Catholic church which has left you behind by being too corrupt, by covering up for evil priests, and by having a Pope who is too liberal."

But then again I don't know if the Orthodox even try to actively gain new members this way.
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:48 PM
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I doubt it. Orthodox services and doctrine are different enough rfom Roman Catholicism that it might be too much of a change. I've attended some Lutheran and Anglican services that were similar enough to the RC service that it would be an easier move. I worked for a funeral home for some time, you see, and attended many different denominations as a part of the job.
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Old 09-17-2018, 06:01 PM
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I doubt it. Orthodox services and doctrine are different enough rfom Roman Catholicism that it might be too much of a change. I've attended some Lutheran and Anglican services that were similar enough to the RC service that it would be an easier move. I worked for a funeral home for some time, you see, and attended many different denominations as a part of the job.
I grew up Catholic, and, as an adult, was a member of several ELCA Lutheran congregations (I'm now a Methodist). Liturgically, yes, a Lutheran service is very similar to a Catholic Mass. But, there are enough doctrinal differences between the churches that I don't think it'd be a simple "switch" for a Catholic who's knowledgeable about their faith.
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Old 09-17-2018, 06:52 PM
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Also, there's the matter of the fact that, relatively speaking, there aren't a lot of Orthodox churches in the U.S.

According to various Wikipedia articles, there are roughly 700 Eastern Orthodox parishes in the U.S., and 560 Greek Orthodox parishes. Meanwhile, there are 17,651 Catholic parishes in the U.S.

Given that disparity, I imagine that there are many American Catholics (particularly those who don't live in cities with large populations of people with Greek or Eastern European ancestry) who don't have an Orthodox church anywhere near them.
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:30 PM
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For that matter, the Orthodox Church has it's own priest sex scandal (just not as big or as public as the Catholic one). So do many of the protestant churches. Especially the Evangelical ones: Jim Bakker, Ted Haggard, etc.
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:03 PM
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Isn’t it much more likely that Catholics dissatisfied with the Vatican administration will splinter off to create an independent Catholic movement? It’s happened before, hasn’t it?
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:15 PM
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Isnít it much more likely that Catholics dissatisfied with the Vatican administration will splinter off to create an independent Catholic movement? Itís happened before, hasnít it?
I know of a Catholic parish in St. Louis that split off from the RCC a few years back. As the story was related to me, St. Stanislaus Kostka was an unusual parish to start with, as its assets (the property, the buildings, etc.) were owned in an independent trust, rather than by the diocese.

When the archbishop of St. Louis ordered the parish to dissolve the trust, and turn over their assets to the archdiocese (which was facing several lawsuit payouts, due to sexual abuse by priests), they refused. The parish declared themselves to be independent of the archdiocese, and the "institutional Roman Catholic Church." They recruited a priest to come to the church from Poland (since the Archbishop pulled their previous priest), and won a court ruling to remain independent.

One of the particularly noticeable differences is that St. Stanislaus Kostka conducts same-sex marriages -- I attended the wedding of my onetime college girlfriend, and her longtime partner, there in 2015.
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:23 PM
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Isn't there similarity between Evangelical Christianity and Catholicism?
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:35 PM
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Isn't there similarity between Evangelical Christianity and Catholicism?
From the standpoint of being Christian faiths, certainly. Both believe in the Trinity, that Jesus was the son of God, who died to pay for the sins of mankind, etc.

The various churches that one would classify as "Evangelical Christian" (there is no one "Evangelical Christian" denomination) are all Protestant churches, and the results of various schisms and splits tracing back to Martin Luther.

But, while the Roman Catholic Church is one of the most hierarchical of all western churches, the various Evangelical churches tend to be very decentralized, and many of them are either truly independent of any wider organization, or only loosely affiliated with a broader organization.

In addition, there are many doctrinal differences (transubstantiation being just one), and the Catholic Bible doesn't even have exactly the same books that the Protestant Bible does.

Even in recent times, there have been conservative / Evangelical Christian churches who've had a negative, if not outright hostile, view towards Catholicism, and "papist" is a longstanding insult which has been used. It's not entirely uncommon for conservative Protestants to believe that Catholics actually worship the Pope.

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Old 09-17-2018, 09:41 PM
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It's not entirely uncommon for conservative Protestants to believe that Catholics actually worship the Pope.
Or Mary. Or saints.
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:42 PM
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From the standpoint of being Christian faiths, certainly. Both believe in the Trinity, that Jesus was the son of God, who died to pay for the sins of mankind, etc.

The various churches that one would classify as "Evangelical Christian" (there is no one "Evangelical Christian" denomination) are all Protestant churches, and the results of various schisms and splits tracing back to Martin Luther.

But, while the Roman Catholic Church is one of the most hierarchical of all western churches, the various Evangelical churches tend to be very decentralized, and many of them are either truly independent of any wider organization, or only loosely affiliated with a broader organization.

In addition, there are many doctrinal differences (transubstantiation being just one), and the Catholic Bible doesn't even have exactly the same books that the Protestant Bible does.
Ahh, ok thanks. I guess I was just remembering the "visions" of those like Erik Prince (of Blackwater infamy) who sought to unify the "most evangelistically assertive" branches of Christianity.
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:42 PM
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I knowq couple of Catholics who left the Catholic Church for the episcopalians over the sex abuse scandal. The services are very similar, the theology is similar, the politics are more liberal. It's not a very hard step fora politically liberal Catholic to take.

Some other "high church" (Lutheran, Presbyterian) might also feel similar, but the theology is more different.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:01 PM
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Given that disparity, I imagine that there are many American Catholics (particularly those who don't live in cities with large populations of people with Greek or Eastern European ancestry) who don't have an Orthodox church anywhere near them.
Greek, Eastern European, or Arab. All the major Arab Christian denominations are Orthodox, I think. As more immigrants from Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq migrate to the US, there will be an increased Orthodox population which may mix with Catholics socially and perhaps draw ex-Catholics to the Orthodox church.

Again, I don't know if the Orthodox church even tries to actively seek new members, but if they do, now would be the time to do it, I think.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:10 PM
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Ahh, ok thanks. I guess I was just remembering the "visions" of those like Erik Prince (of Blackwater infamy) who sought to unify the "most evangelistically assertive" branches of Christianity.
Well, you have organizations like the Southern Baptist Convention, but even those tend to have far less centralized control than even "mainline" Protestant churches, much less the Roman Catholic Church, as the autonomy of the local church is seen as an important feature of many of those denominations.

And, there are also many independent Evangelical churches, which aren't a member of any broader organization at all.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:16 PM
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Greek, Eastern European, or Arab. All the major Arab Christian denominations are Orthodox, I think. As more immigrants from Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq migrate to the US, there will be an increased Orthodox population which may mix with Catholics socially and perhaps draw ex-Catholics to the Orthodox church.
Good point about the Arab Christian faiths (hey, I learned something today). But, I suspect that the absolute number of immigrants from those countries to the U.S. overall (much less Christian immigrants) in the years to come will be a drop in the bucket, and won't have a substantial impact on the size of Orthodox Christianity in the U.S.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:19 PM
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Also, there's the matter of the fact that, relatively speaking, there aren't a lot of Orthodox churches in the U.S.

According to various Wikipedia articles, there are roughly 700 Eastern Orthodox parishes in the U.S., and 560 Greek Orthodox parishes. Meanwhile, there are 17,651 Catholic parishes in the U.S.

Given that disparity, I imagine that there are many American Catholics (particularly those who don't live in cities with large populations of people with Greek or Eastern European ancestry) who don't have an Orthodox church anywhere near them.
In addition, most Orthodox churchs that Iíve encountered - and I can think of three within five miles of the my house, as well as two Eastern Rite congregations - are tied pretty closely to specific ethnic communities - Greeks, Slavs, Arabs - which may not appeal to the basic white bread American Catholic.

On the other hand, any Catholic who thinks Francis is too liberal is probably not going to feel at home in an American Episcopalian church.

Missouri Synod Lutherans might be the best bet for your hypothetical Catholic.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:50 PM
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Isn’t it much more likely that Catholics dissatisfied with the Vatican administration will splinter off to create an independent Catholic movement? It’s happened before, hasn’t it?
Luther was (initially, at the very least) trying to fix what he belonged to, not start anything new.

Same with some other guy a millennium and a half earlier than Luther - I forget his name.

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Old 09-18-2018, 03:16 AM
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Number of Catholic Parishes in the Barcelona metro area: in the hundreds.

Number of Orthodox Parishes in the Barcelona metro area: one. And while I'd be interested in learning Russian, I expect the bits you learn in church don't include mat.
Anybody switching to Orthodox would need to learn new rites, but also, it's not as if we'd be 100% sure of leaving "the bad seeds" behind, so there isn't much of a point. Also, for those of us whose main practical disagreements with the RCC include the treatment of women... the Orthodox Church isn't what comes to mind when thinking of "less frozen-in-time pastures". Episcopal would make sense (where it's available), Orthodox hellfuckno.

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Old 09-18-2018, 03:53 AM
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From the standpoint of being Christian faiths, certainly. Both believe in the Trinity, that Jesus was the son of God, who died to pay for the sins of mankind, etc.

The various churches that one would classify as "Evangelical Christian" (there is no one "Evangelical Christian" denomination) are all Protestant churches, and the results of various schisms and splits tracing back to Martin Luther.
The Center for Evangelical Catholicism would seem to suggest that there are at least some, more conservative, sub-sects of Catholicism that align more closely with Evangelical doctrines perhaps than Catholicism as a whole. This is what I was alluding to when I mentioned Erik Prince. He was (or is) involved in a conservative version of Roman Catholicism and Evangelic theology which shapes a political/religious ideology known as Dominion Theology. I say all this to acknowledge that "Evangelical Catholicism" looks to be only a fringe element or idea being pushed by very far-right parts of the religion and unlikely to attract many mainstream Catholics fleeing from the religion.

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Old 09-18-2018, 04:50 AM
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I can think of exactly two pope names that would capture my attention:

John XXIV

Anna I
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:12 AM
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I say all this to acknowledge that "Evangelical Catholicism" looks to be only a fringe element or idea being pushed by very far-right parts of the religion and unlikely to attract many mainstream Catholics fleeing from the religion.
Well, yeah, that's the thing, it is a (mostly) US-centric deal that goes along with the historically recent redefinition of Evangelicalism as mandating sociocultural/politicoeconomic conservatism. Now, Catholicism itself has been dealing with its own internally originated (hello, Mel Gibson) ultracon movements ever since at the very latest John XXIII, to the point of some in the fringe even claiming there has been no legitimate pope since Pius, but those are unlikely to ally themselves with Protestantsn of any brand.

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Old 09-18-2018, 08:01 AM
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I would say that Episcopalians/Anglicans are their natural resting point. They are very similar liturgically and not too far off theologically. Eastern Orthodox is very strange for Western Christians in many ways. It's more mystical for one thing and the liturgy is very different.

Evangelicals are not a good resting place at all. A conservative Catholic might have similar politics to conservative Evangelicals, but the differences end there. Theologically, they are about as opposite as you can be and still be the same religion. As was mentioned above, more conservative Evangelicals regard Catholics as idolators. Conservative Evangelicals are more likely to celebrate Passover and Hanukah than they are the Feast of Annunciation (not an exaggeration-I know many Evangelicals that do a quasi-Pascha.) A Catholic becoming Evangelical is more of a complete rejection of Catholicism as opposed to a migration over a scandal.

My United Methodist Church does have quite a few ex-Catholics and still Catholics that attend, so I guess we're a stopping off point. I think that it's largely because Methodists don't particularly care. All of our sacraments are open to whomever and actually becoming a member doesn't bestow many privileges except the ability to vote and serve on certain committees. My kid's Sunday School Teacher is a Catholic that is still a Catholic and just never goes to mass anymore and comes to our church instead. He has been taking Communion with us, so if his priest catches him, he might be in trouble since Catholics believe you can only be in Communion with one church, the 'true church.' but from a UM point of view, all of the churches are just different expressions of a true faith, so as long as he's OK with it, we're OK with it. Similarly, I'm allowed to take Catholic mass from our point of view, but we generally discourage such things since it is offensive to them and it's unkind to offend other people.

Anyway, I guess this is really to say that if a Catholic were to want to leave the church, where they go afterwards is probably more about their personal disposition than anything else. If they are very theologically committed to Catholicism, then the Eastern Churches are the only option (of course if they are that committed, they would probably remain Catholic.) If they want something familiar, but technically theologically different, then probably Episcopalian/CoE. If they are just sick of the Catholic Church and want a complete break, Evangelical. And I guess if they are looking for a place to show up without a lot of theological baggage that probably won't even ask them about their beliefs or why they are there, mainline Protestantism.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:05 AM
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He has been taking Communion with us, so if his priest catches him, he might be in trouble since Catholics believe you can only be in Communion with one church, the 'true church.' but from a UM point of view, all of the churches are just different expressions of a true faith, so as long as he's OK with it, we're OK with it. Similarly, I'm allowed to take Catholic mass from our point of view, but we generally discourage such things since it is offensive to them and it's unkind to offend other people.
Neither of those are actually considered a problem by the RCC. Specially the second part.

I swear, if Catholics were offended by everything a Protestant thinks we're offended by, we'd never have time to de-offend.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:11 AM
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Well, yeah, that's the thing, it is a (mostly) US-centric deal that goes along with the historically recent redefinition of Evangelicalism as mandating sociocultural/politicoeconomic conservatism. Now, Catholicism itself has been dealing with its own internally originated (hello, Mel Gibson) ultracon movements ever since at the very latest John XXIII, to the point of some in the fringe even claiming there has been no legitimate pope since Pius, but those are unlikely to ally themselves with Protestantsn of any brand.
Yeah, I might not have communicated myself very well but i was trying to say how I had become educated from the time of my first post in this thread asking about the similarity between Evangelical Christianity churches and Catholicism to my last post acknowledging the unlikelihood of many fleeing Catholics to embrace Protestant Evangelicalism.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:19 AM
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All the major Arab Christian denominations are Orthodox, I think.
The Maronites are Catholic.
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Old 09-18-2018, 09:00 AM
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Isn't there similarity between Evangelical Christianity and Catholicism?
They both believe in Jesus and that is almost the only similarity.
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Old 09-18-2018, 09:08 AM
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Disaffected Catholics, and they have been legion since Vatican II at least, have several well-trodden paths, and which they take depends on the reason for their disaffection.

Stop believing in God: atheism
Feel jerked around by the Church personally: atheism, mainstream Protestant almost any denomination
Church too conservative: Episcopalianism
Church too liberal: Evangelical or splinter Catholic sects (there's more than one, but generally they want to return to 1950's era practices such as Mass in Latin, priest faces away from congregation during Mass, women cover their heads, and heavy doses of guilt).
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Old 09-18-2018, 09:34 AM
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Neither of those are actually considered a problem by the RCC. Specially the second part.

I swear, if Catholics were offended by everything a Protestant thinks we're offended by, we'd never have time to de-offend.
I think that Canon Law would disagree with you. Canon Law 844.1 specifically says that they can only be licitly administered to members of the Catholic faith and can only be received from Catholic clergy. The only exceptions are if the person receiving is dying or unable to get the sacraments from a Catholic priest or they are a member of the Eastern churches. In the Ecclesia de Eucharista (part 30) JPII specifically forbade taking communion in a Protestant Church, effectively making it a mortal sin.

'Offense' of course might be a strong word. You as an individual might not give a rip at all and an individual priest might find the whole thing silly, but it is an offense against Catholic law and so we don't do it for the sake of Catholic beliefs and not ours.
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Old 09-18-2018, 09:43 AM
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They both believe in Jesus and that is almost the only similarity.
Historically, yes. But not more recently. In more modern times, the two opposing sects have sought to reconcile their doctrinal differences to unite in culture-war/social similarities. Take the recent presidential campaign of Rick Santorum. He was (is, i presume) officially a practicing catholic but he also espoused many of the social beliefs that the Evangelical Protestants valued. So he garnered support from both wings. He was considered a "Evangelical Catholic". And he is just an individual example of a growing movement (or at least it was growing until the advent of all things Trump).
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:16 AM
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Neither of those are actually considered a problem by the RCC. Specially the second part.

I swear, if Catholics were offended by everything a Protestant thinks we're offended by, we'd never have time to de-offend.
I was specifically told when I went to a Catholic mass that I was not to partake. I could go up for a blessing, but I should not take the Eucharist. I was encouraged just not to go up at all.

It has also been my observation in ecumenical situations that the Catholics generally won't partake, though I know of no rule that says they must not. Just the rule that only a Eucharist minister can administer the true Eucharist except in extraordinary circumstances.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:26 AM
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I think that Canon Law would disagree with you. Canon Law 844.1 specifically says that they can only be licitly administered to members of the Catholic faith and can only be received from Catholic clergy. The only exceptions are if the person receiving is dying or unable to get the sacraments from a Catholic priest or they are a member of the Eastern churches. In the Ecclesia de Eucharista (part 30) JPII specifically forbade taking communion in a Protestant Church, effectively making it a mortal sin.

'Offense' of course might be a strong word. You as an individual might not give a rip at all and an individual priest might find the whole thing silly, but it is an offense against Catholic law and so we don't do it for the sake of Catholic beliefs and not ours.
Funny how you don't include any references to the second part, i.e., a Protestant attending Mass. Also, you are confusing "canon" with "dogma".
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:27 AM
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I was thinking recently, regarding the scandals that have plagued the Catholic Church:

One one hand, American Catholics have these sexual abuse scandals horribly tarnishing the image of their church. On the other hand, they have a Pope who I get the impression is seen by many as being too liberal.

If I were an Orthodox clergyman ...
In general there's too much 'east' v 'west' cultural difference embedded by now in the eastern v western churches. It's more natural for Catholics, assuming too disaffected with the Church to continue with it, but not with Christianity, to go to also western Protestant sects. I'm not saying that's a strong culturally neutral theological argument, but I think just practically speaking it's usually the case.

But just to comment on your prologue, I'm not sure the recent development is 'one hand' v 'other hand'. Francis, and the liberal project within the College of Cardinals of of which he's the crowning achievement, are not the root cause of the sex scandal. It was a problem long before them. But the explosive issue right now *is* Francis' rehabilitation of *liberal* clerics (speaking of the US) like McCarrick (accused directly of sexual abuse of minors and many more cases of sex with adult seminarians) and promotion of ones like Joseph Tobin and Blase Cupich (not implicated themselves in either misconduct or direct cover ups, but recommended by McCarrick) of the 'the sex scandals are a distraction from the Church's mission to talk about global warming' school of thought. Some Catholics may abandon the Church based on the actions of the past, no matter what the institution now does to reform itself in that respect. But for a lot of Catholics the crisis is Francis as non-credible leader of needed reform, which is intertwined with his liberal theology and who he has surrounded himself with.

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Old 09-18-2018, 10:40 AM
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I was specifically told when I went to a Catholic mass that I was not to partake. I could go up for a blessing, but I should not take the Eucharist. I was encouraged just not to go up at all.
Same has happened to me when I've attended masses at a Roman Church. I wonder if it's a regional difference? Catholic parts of Europe tend to be very Catholic, so there's an expectation that anyone attending services is at least nominally Catholic, even if inobservant. However, in the US, most people are out of communion with the Roman Church. Anyone who doesn't regularly attend mass is more likely to have never been Catholic than have been.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:43 AM
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I'm not sure what senoy meant by 'taking Mass' but the RCC has never been against non-catholics simply attending mass. They actually rather encourage it as a useful first step on the road to becoming a catholic.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:45 AM
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There is no such assumption for Spain, specially in our touristy areas (wait, that's 50% of the country by area and more than that by population). There have been times when the priests in the Sagrada Familia have mentioned that "any of you who wish to have Communion, can", but you never know which languages will people actually understand.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Inner Stickler View Post
I'm not sure what senoy meant by 'taking Mass' but the RCC has never been against non-catholics simply attending mass. They actually rather encourage it as a useful first step on the road to becoming a catholic.
That's correct for attending mass. The ones I've been to were friendly and welcoming. Except for the communion part, we were explicitly told to not have communion if we weren't Roman Catholic. I have no idea if it's changed or if it was a misunderstanding of the rules or what the situation was, but that's how it was twenty-some years ago when I went to some Catholic services in Ohio.
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Old 09-18-2018, 11:04 AM
senoy senoy is offline
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
Funny how you don't include any references to the second part, i.e., a Protestant attending Mass. Also, you are confusing "canon" with "dogma".
Ah, I see. It's a terminology issue. You're right that there is no problem from any point of view of attending Mass, ie going to a Eucharistic celebration and observing-Catholics aren't Mormons, no secret ceremonies or anything. I was using the phrase 'taking Mass' to mean receiving and partaking of the Eucharistic elements. I should have been clearer. It might just be a dialect issue. We use 'going to Mass' to mean showing up and 'taking Mass' to mean partaking of the elements. No, I have attended Mass many, many times and it's obviously not a problem. Probably encouraged I would wager.

Last edited by senoy; 09-18-2018 at 11:08 AM.
  #38  
Old 09-18-2018, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Pleonast View Post
That's correct for attending mass. The ones I've been to were friendly and welcoming. Except for the communion part, we were explicitly told to not have communion if we weren't Roman Catholic. I have no idea if it's changed or if it was a misunderstanding of the rules or what the situation was, but that's how it was twenty-some years ago when I went to some Catholic services in Ohio.
No, that hasn't changed. While many Protestant denominations (such as the Methodist church that I now attend) invite everyone to participate in Communion, in the RCC, it's always been "only Catholics may receive communion."
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Old 09-18-2018, 11:15 AM
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In general there's too much 'east' v 'west' cultural difference embedded by now in the eastern v western churches. It's more natural for Catholics, assuming too disaffected with the Church to continue with it, but not with Christianity, to go to also western Protestant sects. I'm not saying that's a strong culturally neutral theological argument, but I think just practically speaking it's usually the case.
That may be true, but the exotic factor could also be part of its appeal.

I'll be honest, I have myself considered attending an Orthodox service, if not actually formally joining the religion. There's something about the traditions of it that seems very alluring. And I can't be the only one who gets this impression.

Also, I ask again, do Orthodox sects actually go out and seek new members?
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Old 09-18-2018, 12:06 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is offline
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Unfortunately, scandals are just part of what it means to be Catholic. Now, you have bishops covering for sexual abuse. In the Middle Ages, you had bishops and popes with concubines and illegitimate children. In the early days of the Church, you had the Jewish converts trying to force the Gentile converts to get circumcized and adopt the Jewish dietary requirements.

Leaving the Catholic Church because of this latest scandal just doesn't make any sense. As bad as things are, it's nothing new and doesn't change what the Church is. Jesus never promised that the Church would be great or even good. He just promised to be with us and that the gates of hell would not prevail. Where else can you find the Eucharist?
  #41  
Old 09-18-2018, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Lamoral View Post
That may be true, but the exotic factor could also be part of its appeal.

I'll be honest, I have myself considered attending an Orthodox service, if not actually formally joining the religion. There's something about the traditions of it that seems very alluring. And I can't be the only one who gets this impression.

Also, I ask again, do Orthodox sects actually go out and seek new members?
not really, no. the orthodox church usually keeps its head down and doesn't try to gain attention. there are some churches in the orthodox church of america tent that are not very ethnic. some of them under the antiochian umbrella are a bit more outgoing and open to converts.

the traditions and canons of the orthodox church are in some ways more strict and in others more liberal. for example, orthodox church has divorce and allows 3 marriages (due to divorce or death), but no meat or dairy on wed.s or fri.s year around (there are about 5 wed.s and fri.s that allow meat per year); you are nearly vegan on and off for about half the year.

i would think that that a catholic who would want to go to a different denomination, episcopal might fit best. although a lot of episcopalians went orthodox after women being ordained. they mostly went into the antiochian umbrella mentioned above.
  #42  
Old 09-18-2018, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by senoy View Post
I would say that Episcopalians/Anglicans are their natural resting point. They are very similar liturgically and not too far off theologically.
Anglicanism/Episcopalianism would indeed seem the closest non-Roman church to the RCC. Anglicanism was founded as a middle way ("via media") between the Catholics and Protestants, and has a foot on each side of the Protestant Reformation. The liturgy and creeds are very, very similar. As an Episcopalian, I've attended RCC mass and felt completely comfortable; and my EC congregation has a number of former Catholics who belong to it.

The key differences are that the Anglicans have much less dogma or official teachings of the church than Catholics are used to, so you see a wide spectrum of theology -- from very high church Anglo-Catholics to very liberal progressives to fairly conservative Evangelicals. The Anglican Communion has a titular head in the Archbishop of Canterbury, but the ABC holds nothing like the power or authority of the Pope. It's not unheard of for Episcopalians to venerate saints or embrace other trappings of Roman Catholicism. And of course Roman Catholic baptisms and other sacraments are fully recognized by the Anglican church.

Methodists, having broken off of Anglicanism later in the family tree of Christendom, are one more step removed, but along with Lutherans also attract their share of Catholic Church refugees.
  #43  
Old 09-18-2018, 02:23 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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Originally Posted by Slow Moving Vehicle View Post
Missouri Synod Lutherans might be the best bet for your hypothetical Catholic.
I'd actually doubt that. LCMS tends to be very fundamentalist in its approach to Scripture, while Catholics are not. In addition, while the ELCA has been very open to a rapprochement with the Catholic Church, the LCMS has not - stressing that the gap is too wide.
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:33 PM
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Does Pope Francis's apparent status as culmination of a liberal "project" mean what it appears to mean, that the RCC has become far less liberal since the 1960s?

I heard quite a bit of noise at the time he started, but to me he has just seemed "conservative, but a tiny bit less conservative than the recent ones".
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:49 PM
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Does Pope Francis's apparent status as culmination of a liberal "project" mean what it appears to mean, that the RCC has become far less liberal since the 1960s?

I heard quite a bit of noise at the time he started, but to me he has just seemed "conservative, but a tiny bit less conservative than the recent ones".
He's not more liberal, he just focuses the Church in a different direction than Benedict and JPII did. He's reportedly said some things that sound more liberal, but has changed nothing that would comply with those reported things. He's dragged his feet on the pedophile priests issue while really saying some stupid things from a publicity standpoint. His history of cooperation with some very unpleasant governments in Argentina when he was bishop there stands against him, too.

Remember that the same cardinals that elected Joe the Rat also elected Francis. Those cardinals did not all suddenly have an epiphany that the Church should be more liberal less than a decade after they installed the former High Inquisitor.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:18 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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Originally Posted by jayjay View Post
He's not more liberal, he just focuses the Church in a different direction than Benedict and JPII did. He's reportedly said some things that sound more liberal, but has changed nothing that would comply with those reported things. He's dragged his feet on the pedophile priests issue while really saying some stupid things from a publicity standpoint. His history of cooperation with some very unpleasant governments in Argentina when he was bishop there stands against him, too.

Remember that the same cardinals that elected Joe the Rat also elected Francis. Those cardinals did not all suddenly have an epiphany that the Church should be more liberal less than a decade after they installed the former High Inquisitor.
That's more or less how I saw it too, though mine had less detail. I was checking because in general I'm liberal enough that most liberals find it excessive, and thought maybe because of that I just didn't catch some kind of subtlety or something.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:53 PM
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Unfortunately, scandals are just part of what it means to be Catholic. Now, you have bishops covering for sexual abuse. In the Middle Ages, you had bishops and popes with concubines and illegitimate children.
Oh hell no... until pretty much yesterday, you had priests with concubines and illegitimate children. Nowadays they're supposed to ask to be defrocked and marry the woman.

Q: in a small village, how do you know who are the priest's children?
A: those who call him Uncle instead of Father (translator's note: not about incest but about the Spanish custom of referring to older males unrelated to you as Uncle).
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  #48  
Old 09-19-2018, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Lamoral View Post
I was thinking recently, regarding the scandals that have plagued the Catholic Church:

One one hand, American Catholics have these sexual abuse scandals horribly tarnishing the image of their church. On the other hand, they have a Pope who I get the impression is seen by many as being too liberal.

If I were an Orthodox clergyman who was tasked with trying to gain new members, I would be actively trying to recruit from this large pool of Catholics who are at once disaffected with the Pope and also feeling disgraced by the child-abuse issue. I would say, "come join the Orthodox Church, we are the oldest Christian church, we have the same veneration of the saints and the same old-school traditions, but without all the baggage of the Catholic church which has left you behind by being too corrupt, by covering up for evil priests, and by having a Pope who is too liberal."

But then again I don't know if the Orthodox even try to actively gain new members this way.
There is the slight problem that the Orthodox have had the same problems as the RCC, simply not getting as much publicity as the much larger RCC. (For that matter, the prevalence of pedphilia appears to be the same whether one is discussing priests, ministers,rabbis, athletic coaches, etc. with the RCC having an institution with record keeping that allows more discovery. This in no way excuses abuses within the RCC, but people seeking to find shelter elsewhere may be surprised to discover that such shelter does not exist.)
  #49  
Old 09-19-2018, 04:13 AM
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Just yesterday I was reading about abuses in Tibetan Buddhism. Like I said: changing denominations will not leave the bad seeds behind.
  #50  
Old 09-19-2018, 08:23 AM
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In my experience, it's just easier to stop going to church.
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