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Old 09-18-2018, 03:32 PM
Nansbread1 Nansbread1 is offline
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Is cows milk necessary in todays world?

With all the advances in available nutrition and given that milk production is such an intensive and polluting industry (methane gases) is it time to scale down milk production. Except for providing nutrition at very young age (there are alternatives btw) , adult human consumption of milk and milk products is largely unnecessary from a health viewpoint in my view. We are addicted to cheese, ice creams and yoghurts. But we can easily live without them and not suffer a great deal in terms of human health.

So why not scale down the industry? Why has market forces not done the job yet?
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:36 PM
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Why has market forces not done the job yet?
Market forces? Like supply and demand? There is plenty of both.
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:39 PM
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But we can easily live without them and not suffer a great deal in terms of human health.
So what? I'd rather have dairy and be unhealthier. There has to be trillions of dollars of commerce that we'd be healthier without. Most of us don't think that really matters.
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:42 PM
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We are addicted to cheese, ice creams and yoghurts. But we can easily live without them and not suffer a great deal in terms of human health.
All three of these (ice cream especially) taste good. Sure, we can live without them. But life would be much less fun.
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:55 PM
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This is more suitable to IMHO than GQ.

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Old 09-18-2018, 04:01 PM
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You can pry the cheese from my cold, dead hands...
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:02 PM
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You'll have to pry the gooey cheesy pizza out of my cold, dead hands.

ETA: Ninja'ed, and GMTA.

Last edited by Tim R. Mortiss; 09-18-2018 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:04 PM
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So beef is still ok?
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:05 PM
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You can pry the cheese from my cold, dead hands...
You can pry the cheese from my cold, Dutch hands.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:10 PM
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You get the cheese - I'll get the froyo.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:18 PM
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Except for providing nutrition at very young age (there are alternatives btw) , adult human consumption of milk and milk products is largely unnecessary from a health viewpoint in my view.
It's a good source of protein; how are you suggesting replacing that?
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:20 PM
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Consider the data (Table 3.9) presented here: http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/Y4252E/y4252e05b.htm

Cultural forces are always at play, but I don't see any pure market forces against the consumption of milk and dairy products. On the contrary: consumption in healthy economies has been slowly but steadily growing by a couple of % per year.

ETA this is all despite the fact that livestock production unquestionably rapes the environment, as you mention.

Last edited by DPRK; 09-18-2018 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:25 PM
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By the way, I'm pretty sure methane emission from cows is not regulated. So that is not a cost to the producer, therefore it's not a market force.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:29 PM
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Absolutely nothing is necessary, ever.

I personally like milk and dairy and I think that's a good enough reason it should continue existing, unnecessary though it may be.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:03 PM
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You know, honestly, I could be just fine without ice cream or yogurt.

If you try to take the real butter from my morning english muffin, you will have a fight on your hands.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:34 PM
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Market forces are at work providing downward pressure on the milk industry, but are being stymied by governing bodies who keep propping up the industry.

Vermont Public Radio is reporting the Northeast is again poised to begin dumping milk. The reason: Too much production and not enough processing capacity. Lower fluid milk sales also aren't helping.

Earlier this year, Land O’Lakes requested that farmers be allowed to dump milk on their farms and still be paid for it. Erik Rasmussen, Market Administrator of the Northeast Federal Milk Marketing Order granted the request and is allowing the practice through July 1, 2018.


Google 'milk dumping' and there are a lot more articles about this practice. Dog help any politician willing to cut farm subsidies these days.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:38 PM
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No mention of butter? Seriously? It's the only reason I was never a vegan. I just couldn't do it. There is no substitute.

I do think that we'd all be a lot healthier, and so would the ecosystem, if we could make the switch to goat's milk though.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:09 PM
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So why not scale down the industry? Why has market forces not done the job yet?
The market forces are what support the existing industry. Are what you really proposing is the banning of dairy products through government edict? If so then market forces really have no say there.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:15 PM
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The market forces are what support the existing industry. Are what you really proposing is the banning of dairy products through government edict? If so then market forces really have no say there.
Market forces and government subsidies, apparently.

I'd say yank the subsidies just to see what happens, but I like my morning yogurt.
  #20  
Old 09-18-2018, 06:20 PM
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We should ban everything except Soylent.
  #21  
Old 09-18-2018, 06:30 PM
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By the way, I'm pretty sure methane emission from cows is not regulated. So that is not a cost to the producer, therefore it's not a market force.
Quiet, don't give them Ideas
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:30 PM
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The market forces are what support the existing industry. Are what you really proposing is the banning of dairy products through government edict? If so then market forces really have no say there.
Not really: U.S. dairy subsidies equal 73 percent of producer returns

USDA data reveals that for more than a decade, U.S. farm gate prices for milk fail to cover costs of production.

So, we taxpayers are paying for overproduction of a product, much of which is going to waste. If market forces were allowed to play a larger role in the dairy industry, we'd probably see a lot more dairy farms going out of business. Who's going to advocate for that?
  #23  
Old 09-18-2018, 06:34 PM
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We can also live without beer and tequila - if you call that living.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:37 PM
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Baby cows like milk. I like hamburgers, feed them calves, I say. Milk is a staple in fridges all across the country. I ain't about to give up ice cream, yogurt, cheese. Butter, meh, ok, I can live without.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:39 PM
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So, we taxpayers are paying for overproduction of a product, much of which is going to waste. If market forces were allowed to play a larger role in the dairy industry, we'd probably see a lot more dairy farms going out of business. Who's going to advocate for that?
It depends on whether the public loves milk, and wants it subsidized to as low a price as possible, or whether they truly don't want that much of it in which case the farms may as well produce something else.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:43 PM
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So beef is still ok?
Sure! Remember PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:44 PM
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This is like arguing against the use of coal with only power generation in mind, and neglecting coal for steel and cement.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:23 PM
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With all the advances in available nutrition and given that milk production is such an intensive and polluting industry (methane gases) is it time to scale down milk production. Except for providing nutrition at very young age (there are alternatives btw)
Formula is made from cow's milk btw; this includes specialty formulas except for lacto-protein-free formula. Are there enough other sources of milk to replace that kind of volume? Are you going to be the person who tells a mother that can't breastfeed for whatever reason, or a husband whose wife can't breastfeed for reasons ranging from "kid won't latch" to "mom is dead", that their kid can't get formula?
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Last edited by Nava; 09-18-2018 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:07 PM
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Not really: U.S. dairy subsidies equal 73 percent of producer returns

USDA data reveals that for more than a decade, U.S. farm gate prices for milk fail to cover costs of production.

So, we taxpayers are paying for overproduction of a product, much of which is going to waste. If market forces were allowed to play a larger role in the dairy industry, we'd probably see a lot more dairy farms going out of business. Who's going to advocate for that?
Not Canada
Quote:
"Each producer has a share of the market. We call it a quota,"
...
Canadian dairy farmers aren't forced to cut costs, per pound of milk production, as much as farmers in the rest of the world. As a result, every Canadian has to pay more for milk and cheese and yogurt. It's like a tax on every milk-drinking family.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:40 PM
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Most of us get our calcium from dairy products. There are other sources, but how much do you like sardines and kale?
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:44 PM
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Most of us get our calcium from dairy products. There are other sources, but how much do you like sardines and kale?
I go through at least two cans of sardines a week.
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Old 09-18-2018, 09:14 PM
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Most of us get our calcium from dairy products. There are other sources, but how much do you like sardines and kale?
Almond milks are fortified with calcium and vitamins. I can't drink cow milk, and ice cream gives me problems also. There are very good ice creams that don't have dairy in them.
  #33  
Old 09-18-2018, 11:30 PM
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They do make these cheap things called vitamins. If you're afraid you're not getting enough calcium from dairy, try them. The lil'wrekker just got blood tests for our wellness insurance thingy. She was low in D, they asked her if she drinks enough milk. We are so pale that we use sunscreen in the highest numbers to prevent burning. We are religious about it. I put her on a good one-a-day. It's so funny cause when she's home she drinks a lot of milk. Last school year was her first away from home, so I'm sure she didn't eat as well, more junk food and such. We had a talk. My point is, some peeps can't get enough D from sunshine, the next best thing is dairy or supplements. So, no we need milk, regular old cow milk, IMO.
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:20 AM
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I do think that we'd all be a lot healthier, and so would the ecosystem, if we could make the switch to goat's milk though.
Out of interest, can I ask why? -- please, fight my ignorance. Is the methane problem less, or non-existent, with goats?

My brother opts always for goats' milk and butter, instead of cows'; for him it's a humanitarian thing -- with dairy goats being a far smaller and less efficient-commerce-driven undertaking, than the industry which involves cows' milk: as he puts it, he anyway likes to think that dairy producers who specialise in goats are more likely to treat their animals in a less ruthlessly mechanistic way.
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Old 09-19-2018, 07:30 AM
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This might be the most obvious question to answer in the world. The human body is primed to give us rewards when we eat things that are high in fats or have trace chemicals that we need. In some chemical configurations, we get exceptionally nice rewards. Milk products give us those rewards, so we eat them.

Nutrition has only a very small amount to do with it. It's certainly possible for us to invent some sort of Vegan "Soylent Octarine" that we pump into our stomachs and it provides us with our nutrition. We wouldn't get our nice food rewards though, so it would make our quality of life suckier. We generally are willing to pay so that our quality of life isn't sucky, so we buy cheese and ice cream instead.
  #36  
Old 09-19-2018, 07:59 AM
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Could we switch to Chihuahua milk? They already make cheese from it.
  #37  
Old 09-19-2018, 08:06 AM
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The market often doesn't properly price in effects on the environment, like methane emissions and waste disposal. If those costs were imposed on dairy producers, prices would go up and demand would come down (I doubt it would be eliminated entirely). In the case of dairy, there are further anti-market forces with the government subsidies mentioned above.

The dairy industry, of course, isn't the only industry that doesn't properly include all environmental costs as a cost of production. Other big industries are oil (probably all non-renewable energy) and many other farm products as well. I'm sure there are others.

If all industries were required to pay for their greenhouse gas emissions and other pollutants and externalities, I'm sure we'd see some pretty big realignments. No reason to single out the dairy industry, though.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:08 AM
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Could we switch to Chihuahua milk? They already make cheese from it.
And Corona from their urine.
  #39  
Old 09-19-2018, 08:44 AM
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It's a good source of protein; how are you suggesting replacing that?
I dunno, with any/all of the other protein-rich foods?
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:46 AM
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I go through at least two cans of sardines a week.
You'll need to bump it up to two cans per day to get to the recommended intake of calcium. I'll keep my cheese, thanks.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:33 AM
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. . .
So, we taxpayers are paying for overproduction of a product, much of which is going to waste. If market forces were allowed to play a larger role in the dairy industry, we'd probably see a lot more dairy farms going out of business. Who's going to advocate for that?
Left alone it would divide out into a lot of smaller local dairies, and the agri-business dairies would shut down. Sadly, its a given that the dairy lobby will prevent that from happening in the US.

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Out of interest, can I ask why? -- please, fight my ignorance. Is the methane problem less, or non-existent, with goats?

My brother opts always for goats' milk and butter, instead of cows'; for him it's a humanitarian thing -- with dairy goats being a far smaller and less efficient-commerce-driven undertaking, than the industry which involves cows' milk: as he puts it, he anyway likes to think that dairy producers who specialise in goats are more likely to treat their animals in a less ruthlessly mechanistic way.
Why it's better for us.

As to why it's better for the environment, comprehensive studies are hard to find. An Individual goat definitely puts out less methane than a cow, but also less milk. Most sources agree that the carbon and methane emissions per unit of milk are about equal.

That is, until you consider the question of feed. Goats will eat anything, and thrive on it. You can rent them out to clear brush by day, and milk them by night. Or you can let them loose in craggy landscapes where no food crops could possibly be grown. At most an occasional fly-by scattering of alfalfa and clover seeds will keep the landscape supporting their nutritional requirements. They do not need the kinds of grain-based, fishmeal enriched and hormone enhanced feeds that cows do in order to achieve the parity described above.

Goats (like sheep) can be allowed to range on rough landscapes and will come home to be milked on their own - no need to cramp them up in barns and warehouses necessitating the constant stream of antibiotics to manage disease vectors. This also feeds into the "better for us" category.

Cows get into trouble in any but the flattest, richest pasture lands. And a percentage of them will tend to stay out and dry up rather than come in for regular milking unless rounded up twice daily. And in the rare case, the loss of a single goat is no where near to the financial impact on the farmer to the loss of a cow.

Last edited by TruCelt; 09-19-2018 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:45 AM
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OK, so your goats will eat anything, and you can use them to clear brush. What happens when all of the brush is clear? I mean, on a small scale, this isn't an issue, but if you were raising enough goats to replace a decent sized herd of dairy cows, there's not enough brush or craggy landscape for them to consume. At some point, you need to feed them.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowthx View Post
. . .
So, we taxpayers are paying for overproduction of a product, much of which is going to waste. If market forces were allowed to play a larger role in the dairy industry, we'd probably see a lot more dairy farms going out of business. Who's going to advocate for that?
Left alone it would divide out into a lot of smaller local dairies, and the agri-business dairies would shut down. Sadly, its a given that the dairy lobby will prevent that from happening in the US.
I doubt that. In most industries, consolidation leads to lower costs. So why would smaller dairies result if government subsidies were removed?
  #44  
Old 09-19-2018, 12:07 PM
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I doubt that. In most industries, consolidation leads to lower costs. So why would smaller dairies result if government subsidies were removed?
As pointed out, there is an oversupply of milk. There are too many dairy farms producing too much product that the market cannot absorb. I would think thinning the herd of dairy farms would impact the smaller dairies hardest (closing them down, not consolidation), while the bigger and corporate-owned ones would welcome the reduction in overall industry output (leading to more stable, potentially higher prices).
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Old 09-19-2018, 12:28 PM
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Well, I think gambling is stupid and harmful too, but I don't go around asking why are there still casinos.

I like milk. Case closed.

Godammit, I get so tired of these self-righteous types trying to save the fucking world when nobody asked them to. They won't be satisfied until we're living in teepees and drinking our own piss.

I like drinking straws too. Any animal stupid enough to get one stuck up their nose deserves to go extinct.
  #46  
Old 09-19-2018, 12:54 PM
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Surely environments costs for milk being destroyed is the most egregious part of this, I should think!

And this is why supply management is a better choice for the dairy industry. No price crash due to over production, farmers always meet their production costs, no subsidies to destroy milk!

Oversupply is the core issue here, raw capitalism, more, more, more! And why the US is so desperate to overwhelm the Canadian dairy market.

Supply management is more environmentally responsible, by far, than dumping milk.
  #47  
Old 09-19-2018, 04:58 PM
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Should it be pointed again? THEY CAN PRY OUT CHEESE OUT OF MY DEAD HANDS!

It is not about if can survive without it, we can live on potatos and water, but "criminalizing" dairy products is every revolutionary's wet dream. So yes. We need milk (and i am not completely lactose tolerant) or there would not be "todays world." It would be some kind of world, but certainly not the same.

Last edited by yo han go; 09-19-2018 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:09 PM
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We are down to almost a page of comments and the OP has not returned to address anyone. Sadly, I think they are not coming back, and tossing-out a topic with a thread title like this and then leaving seems like trolling.
  #49  
Old 09-19-2018, 05:13 PM
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We are down to almost a page of comments and the OP has not returned to address anyone. Sadly, I think they are not coming back, and tossing-out a topic with a thread title like this and then leaving seems like trolling.
Perhaps they were eaten by a cow.
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:37 PM
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I don't drink coffee, sodas/soft drinks or al-kee-hol (occasional iced tea), so if you try to take my Moo Cow Fuck Milk*TM, we're going to have a go-around.

*NSFW, mostly.

Last edited by burpo the wonder mutt; 09-19-2018 at 05:39 PM.
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