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Old 10-06-2018, 10:50 AM
Bijou Drains Bijou Drains is offline
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Painting self destructs right after sale

Too late for a refund?

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/ba...rnd/index.html
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Old 10-06-2018, 11:15 AM
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Reading it, it’s pretty clear that Sotherby’s was in on the stunt and the art is now worth more than ever.
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Old 10-06-2018, 11:19 AM
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Go, Banksy!
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Old 10-06-2018, 11:29 AM
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Fascinating. Because the page also links to this story:

http://www.cnn.com/style/article/ama...s-perfections/

Basically, an Instagram story-line faked by its creator.

And this story, http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/ma...sure-thailand/ How Thailand won't let tourists go to a beach made popular by a movie, until they can shore up the ecological problems.

We've had threads before how some art has been lost, and its too much of a tragedy to abide, example of some pre-pubescent photographed girls now in control of their fathers estate no longer want their topless budding breasts to be on display. And possibly other stories.

Art happens, and people experience it, and it changes them. Then, an artwork may disappear. That also happens. I don't like centuries old Buddha statues getting dynamited, but, outside of third party cultural attack or archival negligence, sometimes artworks are gone.

Embarrassing that Banksy has to bash us over the head with the concept, but pretty cool he took the initiative.

Last edited by Arkcon; 10-06-2018 at 11:31 AM. Reason: serious typo
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Old 10-06-2018, 11:48 AM
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Bah. It was a straight shredder, so the picture can be reassembled. If he'd been serious, he would have used a cross-cut shredder.
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Old 10-06-2018, 12:08 PM
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I suspect the buyer will want to keep it and will frame the whole contraption complete with shredded piece hanging out the bottom of the frame (and then will possibly re-sell it for several times the amount)
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Old 10-06-2018, 12:12 PM
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It didn’t self destruct. It transformed. It’s still art and now the buyer became part of the process.

I think it’s extremely cool.
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Old 10-06-2018, 01:53 PM
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he's not exactly subtle is he? I find his work rather obvious and banal, like he never left the sixth-form.
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Old 10-06-2018, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
It didnít self destruct. It transformed. Itís still art and now the buyer became part of the process.

I think itís extremely cool.
My thought were nearly identical.
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Old 10-06-2018, 02:26 PM
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And be real - girl reaching for balloon? The only reason that was selling for more than the value of the frame was it was Bansky. It is still very much a Bansky and one unlike any that have come before it, just about as pretty now as it was before but with more meaning as a Bansky.

Reminds me of the Card Against Humanity Picasso stunt. And my son educated me some in that thread about other art that has been transformative and transgressive as part of its meaning. (And its marketing/value.)


I wonder what Bansky collectors would each pay for one framed shred of that work?
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Old 10-06-2018, 02:30 PM
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he's not exactly subtle is he? I find his work rather obvious and banal, like he never left the sixth-form.
That's the point, of course. This is like criticizing Dali for being unrealistic. Duchamp, Man Ray, Warhol and others specialized in making art out of the banal.

Last edited by Colibri; 10-06-2018 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 10-06-2018, 03:22 PM
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That's the point, of course. This is like criticizing Dali for being unrealistic. Duchamp, Man Ray, Warhol and others specialized in making art out of the banal.
what's the point? that his art is unsubtle and obvious?
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Old 10-06-2018, 03:41 PM
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what's the point? that his art is unsubtle and obvious?
The point is that you don't get it.
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Old 10-06-2018, 03:51 PM
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The point is that you don't get it.
The point is to act like you get it whilst feeling amused and superior to people who admit they don't get it and, even more so, to people who are unironically claiming to get it. The question of whether there is even anything to get is not a part of the process.
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Old 10-06-2018, 04:10 PM
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I suspect the buyer will want to keep it and will frame the whole contraption complete with shredded piece hanging out the bottom of the frame (and then will possibly re-sell it for several times the amount)
Yes. Like has been said before, I suspect this act of "destruction" has actually increased the value of the art, possibly substantially.
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Old 10-06-2018, 04:21 PM
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The point is that you don't get it.
No, I absolutely get it, what there is of it to get. I've had no problem being impressed by difficult and challenging art before. I'm not a snob of either persuasion.

It isn't difficult, challenging or clever enough to be interesting to me. It doesn't move me, it says nothing to me.

You may like it, that's entirely up to you but it isn't a universal opinion.
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Old 10-06-2018, 04:36 PM
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Seems very odd that the shredder stopped with a third of the work untouched. The transformed piece can still be displayed.

There should have been a useless pile of shredded paper on the floor.

Banksy must have planned it this way.

I assume this is a reminder of the artificial value placed on art. That one wealthy person wants to own the work and drives up the value. Depriving everyone else from enjoying it too.

Banksy has always produced street art for the public.

Last edited by aceplace57; 10-06-2018 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 10-06-2018, 04:51 PM
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No, I absolutely get it, what there is of it to get. I've had no problem being impressed by difficult and challenging art before. I'm not a snob of either persuasion.

It isn't difficult, challenging or clever enough to be interesting to me. It doesn't move me, it says nothing to me.

You may like it, that's entirely up to you but it isn't a universal opinion.
Obviously it's not a universal opinion. No one likes everything.

The banality of this particular image is part of the joke, which is that people are willing to pay over a million dollars for such a trite image just because of who produced it. And most of Banksy's pieces are jokes. I don't think they are intended to be challenging so much as mocking.

He comments on banal art in pieces like The Banality of the Banality of Evil.
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Old 10-06-2018, 05:07 PM
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I'll be interested if Banksy captures a screenshot of the shocked faces and makes a new art piece in Photoshop.

Or it could be a street painting someday

That's performance art captured at it's best.
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Old 10-06-2018, 05:24 PM
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The banality of this particular image is part of the joke, which is that people are willing to pay over a million dollars for such a trite image just because of who produced it. And most of Banksy's pieces are jokes. I don't think they are intended to be challenging so much as mocking.
Which is certainly a valid interpretation but neither new nor particularly shocking.

What I don't agree with is an assumption that the only possible manifestation of "getting it" is "liking it".
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Old 10-06-2018, 05:33 PM
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Seems very odd that the shredder stopped with a third of the work untouched. The transformed piece can still be displayed.

There should have been a useless pile of shredded paper on the floor.

Banksy must have planned it this way.

I assume this is a reminder of the artificial value placed on art. That one wealthy person wants to own the work and drives up the value. Depriving everyone else from enjoying it too.

Banksy has always produced street art for the public.
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I'll be interested if Banksy captures a screenshot of the shocked faces and makes a new art piece in Photoshop.

Or it could be a street painting someday

That's performance art captured at it's best.
I like this analysis, and I appreciate your sly artistic construction, in which your comment on performance art is, itself, contained within a lovely little piece of performative prose.

You have a whimsical, one might even say magical ability to create posts that seem, on their surface, to be little more than a series of disconnected and trite observations, but that, when viewed as a whole, transcend the banality of the specific and produce a deep, comtemplative view of the world.
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Old 10-06-2018, 06:41 PM
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I agree this was pretty cool, even if it some sort of "setup".

How was the shredding executed? Was it done by remote control by someone in the room? Maybe by cell phone but then someone would have to contact the perpetrator from the auction since I doubt it was broadcast live. I ask because the shredding took place right after it was sold.

Adding more intrigue to this is no one knows who Bansky really is.
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Old 10-06-2018, 07:14 PM
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I like this analysis, and I appreciate your sly artistic construction, in which your comment on performance art is, itself, contained within a lovely little piece of performative prose.

You have a whimsical, one might even say magical ability to create posts that seem, on their surface, to be little more than a series of disconnected and trite observations, but that, when viewed as a whole, transcend the banality of the specific and produce a deep, comtemplative view of the world.
Thank you for the kind words mhendo.
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Old 10-06-2018, 08:05 PM
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I’m impressed by this master stroke of self promotion. It’s art imitating asymmetric wealth.

Should we shred our Banksy Amazon prints and how does one keep the dangling pieces from curling due to changes in humidity? Maybe have it printed on glass first and then cut on a tile cutter?
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Old 10-06-2018, 08:20 PM
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You obviously meant this question as a joke, but it's an interesting question. Were the potential buyers informed that this was going to happen?

Like most here, I get it, but what if the buyer didn't? What if he said "hey, it's ruined, I'm not paying good money for that"? Would he still be on the hook for $1.4 million?
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Old 10-06-2018, 08:42 PM
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Iím impressed by this master stroke of self promotion.
This.

Had the painting sold in the normal fashion, we wouldn't be talking about Banksy. Guy's a marketing genius.
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Old 10-06-2018, 08:43 PM
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Banksy is a satirist. Satire is rarely subtle, but often very clever. Obviously that can be annoying, but I like it.
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Old 10-06-2018, 09:38 PM
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You obviously meant this question as a joke, but it's an interesting question. Were the potential buyers informed that this was going to happen?

Like most here, I get it, but what if the buyer didn't? What if he said "hey, it's ruined, I'm not paying good money for that"? Would he still be on the hook for $1.4 million?


Sotheby’s has said they are working it out with the Buyer, who, if they were smart, would keep it.


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Old 10-06-2018, 10:33 PM
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Sotheby’s has said they are working it out with the Buyer, who, if they were smart, would keep it.


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Keeping it may be the smart thing but there is one thing to be considered. It must battery powered. If I'm not mistaken batteries contain chemicals that with age can leak and become corrosive. If so then any batteries should be removed. Whether that can be done without disturbing the artwork depends on how it's constructed.
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Old 10-06-2018, 11:08 PM
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How was the shredding executed? Was it done by remote control by someone in the room?
Supposedly, yes. From The New York Times, "A photo posted on the private Instagram account of Caroline Lang, the chairman of Sotheby’s Switzerland, showed a man in the salesroom operating an electronic device hidden inside a bag. Ms. Long said that she later saw a man being removed from the building by Sotheby’s security staff."

BTW, on his Instagram account, Banksy explains when and how he did it.

Last edited by Dewey Finn; 10-06-2018 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 10-07-2018, 12:31 AM
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Supposedly, yes. From The New York Times, "A photo posted on the private Instagram account of Caroline Lang, the chairman of Sotheby’s Switzerland, showed a man in the salesroom operating an electronic device hidden inside a bag. Ms. Long said that she later saw a man being removed from the building by Sotheby’s security staff."

BTW, on his Instagram account, Banksy explains when and how he did it.
According to that, a few years ago he hid a shredder in a painting "in case it was ever put up for auction".

What does that imply exactly? Was it still his and did he decide to auction it, or had he sold it to someone else who then later put it up for auction?

Was it even his property to destroy at this point?
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Old 10-07-2018, 12:44 AM
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According to that, a few years ago he hid a shredder in a painting "in case it was ever put up for auction".

What does that imply exactly? Was it still his and did he decide to auction it, or had he sold it to someone else who then later put it up for auction?

Was it even his property to destroy at this point?
To answer my own question, according to Vice the painting was acquired by Sotheby's in 2006. So, if that's correct, and considering the value of the painting, did he just commit a felony?
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/y...-million-vgtrn
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Old 10-07-2018, 03:56 AM
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did he just commit a felony?
I don't see how.

The painting was initially sold with the artist's frame containing the shredder. As such, the whole unit was purchased, including the potential for it to shred itself. He didn't come after the fact and install a shredder into a painting someone had already purchased.

Now, you could argue that there's a case for some sort of deception as to the nature of what was sold. But that's also on Sotherby's for not properly checking out all aspects of what they sell (charitably assuming they weren't aware of the shredder.)

But at best, you're talking a civil case for the deception, there's no case to be made here for felony. Nothing was stolen, or, technically, destroyed. and the artwork did exactly what it was intended to do by the artist.
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Old 10-07-2018, 04:21 AM
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the painting was acquired by Sotheby's in 2006.
So it had a battery embedded for 12 years, which remained fully functional ?

Is there an electrical engineer in this thread who can please tell us how that's done?

Last edited by chappachula; 10-07-2018 at 04:22 AM.
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Old 10-07-2018, 04:32 AM
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So it had a battery embedded for 12 years, which remained fully functional ?

Is there an electrical engineer in this thread who can please tell us how that's done?
Very good point! Now I'm wondering if Sotheby's (and maybe the "buyer"?) were in on it.

And it's not just the battery. Would a shredder that was never used still function after 12 years? Would the rollers have deteriorated? Would the motor still turn?

I smell a rat.
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Old 10-07-2018, 04:47 AM
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I smell a rat.
Also, who took the photos?
Somebody was perfectly positioned to catch the audiences faces, the picture frame, etc, and had his camera turned on and instantly ready to use.
Normally, at formal occasions like this, people keep their phones turned off.
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Old 10-07-2018, 05:00 AM
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Also, who took the photos?
Somebody was perfectly positioned to catch the audiences faces, the picture frame, etc, and had his camera turned on and instantly ready to use.
Normally, at formal occasions like this, people keep their phones turned off.
Not just photos; a video.
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Old 10-07-2018, 06:17 AM
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Would a shredder that was never used still function after 12 years? Would the rollers have deteriorated? Would the motor still turn?
It wasn't built in 1890. Of course it would still work.
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Old 10-07-2018, 06:51 AM
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BTW, on his Instagram account, Banksy explains when and how he did it.
How exactly does the shredder work when the blades are turned sideways? Do you think you could lower canvas or paper onto an xacto blade and have it cut cleanly? Did you notice how the flat painting suddenly appeared curled as it "went through" the shredder?

There was no shredder. There was a shredded version of the painting rolled up into the frame that lowered as the painting was rolled up onto it's own spool. Dollars to donuts someone at Sotheby's knew about the trick frame and made damn sure it was going to work on cue.

That said, Banksy is a master promoter of him/her/them self.
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Old 10-07-2018, 07:03 AM
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It wasn't built in 1890. Of course it would still work.
It could still work but there was no guarantee. The battery could have deteriorated. Parts could have corroded. It could have accidentally been set off somehow during those twelve years.

It's a great piece of performance art but I'm skeptical that this happened as described.
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Old 10-07-2018, 09:38 AM
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The article in The New York Times mentioned other hints that Sotheby's perhaps knew that something was up. The frame was unusually thick and heavy, and the auction house would normally have carefully examined the piece prior to putting it up for sale. (I think they may even remove paintings from their frames to examine them in more detail.) The Times article pointed out that pictures are normally displayed on a podium while this was hanging on the wall. (Take a look at this article from The Daily Mail showing Edvard Munch's The Scream at auction. The painting in its frame is held by the top and bottom. If they had done that in this case, the slot on the bottom would have been blocked.) Lastly, this was the last lot sold in the auction.
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Old 10-07-2018, 10:06 AM
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Also, there's the mysterious stranger getting into an altercation with the guards. It fits the narrative a little too nicely, but doesn't really make sense if you think about it.

Why would guards try to stop someone from leaving the room? I don't think it's illegal to leave an auction.

And why would this stranger act so conspicuously? If you were going to do something like this you'd have a small transmitter or cellphone or something similar in your pocket, push a button or dial a number, or whatever and then sit there quietly. Wearing black sunglasses and immediately leaving are exactly the wrong things to do.
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Old 10-07-2018, 11:32 AM
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I think they may even remove paintings from their frames to examine them in more detail.
With an artist's frame, that is not going to happen - the frame is part of the work of art, removing one from the other would be destroying the artwork. Better have a good restorer at hand.

Not saying the theatre of it all isn't suspect, though.
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Old 10-07-2018, 12:20 PM
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So it had a battery embedded for 12 years, which remained fully functional ?

Is there an electrical engineer in this thread who can please tell us how that's done?
capacitor batteries will stay charged indefinitely and Lithium Ion batteries will stay charged for years. You're thinking of traditional batteries which do fade sitting on the shelf.
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Old 10-07-2018, 12:30 PM
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I don't see how.



The painting was initially sold with the artist's frame containing the shredder. As such, the whole unit was purchased, including the potential for it to shred itself. He didn't come after the fact and install a shredder into a painting someone had already purchased.



Now, you could argue that there's a case for some sort of deception as to the nature of what was sold. But that's also on Sotherby's for not properly checking out all aspects of what they sell (charitably assuming they weren't aware of the shredder.)



But at best, you're talking a civil case for the deception, there's no case to be made here for felony. Nothing was stolen, or, technically, destroyed. and the artwork did exactly what it was intended to do by the artist.


Even if there was a legal recourse and Sotheby’s was 100% not in on it, I doubt they would take action against one of the world’s hottest artists. Plus you can’t buy publicity like this.




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Old 10-07-2018, 12:41 PM
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capacitor batteries will stay charged indefinitely and Lithium Ion batteries will stay charged for years. You're thinking of traditional batteries which do fade sitting on the shelf.
Assuming that when the device was constructed there was no idea if or when the painting would be auctioned, wouldn't a receiver have a to put a constant drain on the battery in order to listen for the triggering signal? Could a battery in that frame hold enough of a charge to power the receiver for 12 years?

Those aren't rhetorical questions. I genuinely don't know and I'm hoping that you or somebody here does.
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Last edited by davidm; 10-07-2018 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 10-07-2018, 12:46 PM
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And remember that you can't use current battery technology; it has to be battery technology from 12 years ago.
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Old 10-07-2018, 12:48 PM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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Perhaps Banksy or one of his confederates was able to get close enough to the frame to turn on the receiver prior to the auction?

But I'm wondering about the shredder itself. I would have started with a commercially available one, but the picture looked wider than letter-size paper, and most shredders here in the US are sized for letter-sized paper. Your choices are even more limited if you're looking for a commercially-available battery-powered shredder.
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Old 10-07-2018, 01:32 PM
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I would think that the receiver wouldn't have to be very powerful. Could the receiver be powered by a camouflaged solar cell? A separate battery would then power the shredder and wouldn't be drained until the proper signal was received and the shredder activated.
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Old 10-07-2018, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
To answer my own question, according to Vice the painting was acquired by Sotheby's in 2006. So, if that's correct, and considering the value of the painting, did he just commit a felony?
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/y...-million-vgtrn
I confess my art ignorance. I don't understand the 12 year gap between sale and acquisition by Sotheby. do they have a warehouse of stuff that they sit on until they think it's elevated to paying art?
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