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Old 10-12-2018, 06:09 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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Why is Saudi Arabia killing a journalist such a big issue

I haven't been following the news lately, but the murder of a Saudi journalist in Turkey is coming up a lot.

But why is this different than all the other oppression of journalists all over the world? Russia kills lots of journalists. Turkey themselves kills and imprisons journalists.

So why is this particular act such a global event? What makes this event worse than all the other murder and imprisonment of journalists?

Also, why is a global magnitsky act coming up? I thought that was only for Russia. Is this some kind of law that divests investment from any country that engages in human rights abuses?

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 10-12-2018 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:31 PM
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It's a Turkish journalist. One regional power, Saudi Arabia, killed a journalist from another regional power, Turkey. It happened at a time when both have been flexing their muscles regionally and there's been a fair amount of regional uncertainty about security issues. It's different because of the potential of adding to that ongoing conflict.

The Magnitsky Act passed in 2012 was Russia specific. In 2016 the Global Magnitsky Act was passed applying the same type of standards globally. It enables a bit more than mere divesture. From Wiki
Quote:
Since 2016 the bill, which applies globally, authorizes government to sanction human rights offenders, freeze their assets, and ban them from entering the U.S.

Last edited by DinoR; 10-12-2018 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:46 PM
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It's a Turkish journalist.
Jamal Khashoggi was a Saudi journalist. However, at the time, he was living in exile in Turkey.

The big deal is that, allegedly, Saudi Arabia secretly sent a hit team into a foreign country, Turkey, to kill a legal resident of Turkey. It's not quite at the level of the GRU allegedly sending a hit team to the UK to kill Sergei Skripal, but it's not far off.

Also, Khashoggi had written for or worked with a number of media organizations, including the BBC and the Washington Post. He wasn't just a local journalist working exclusively for local media who was (allegedly) killed by his local government. He was an internationally known and respected journalist who had worked with or for various foreign media organizations, who was (allegedly) killed on foreign soil by a special-purpose hit team.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:47 PM
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Um. Murder is wrong.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:51 PM
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Just for the record, it's also a big deal when Putin has journalists murdered. It's just that no one can really do anything about it.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:52 PM
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He was a resident of the U.S. living in the Washington, D.C. area and had significant connections with other Washington journalists.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:55 PM
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And Trump is embracing the spirit of the whole thing

A good warning to those who publish fake news, or some such bullshit.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:00 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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Um. Murder is wrong.
I agree. I just didn't understand why this particular murder is getting so much airtime while other murders do not.

Turkey kills and imprisons journalists too, so them making a big deal out of this isn't making sense.

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 10-12-2018 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:06 PM
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Keep in mind that both Turkey and Saudi Arabia are US allies. One of them (Turkey) can even invoke Article Five in the event of a war. We rely on both Turkey and Saudi Arabia for a variety of reasons, including resources, geography, and countering hostile competitors.

Let’s assume the worst case scenario: Demarches, mutual hostility, a breakdown in diplomacy, etc etc. If America had to choose between Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the consequences could be catastrophic. Especially so when you consider that people like Russia, Iran, and Syria would happily exploit any opportunity to divide the US from her allies.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:11 PM
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Honestly I think it's because it's more dramatically mysterious. Guy goes into a building, on video, and never leaves.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by gdave View Post
Jamal Khashoggi was a Saudi journalist. However, at the time, he was living in exile in Turkey.

The big deal is that, allegedly, Saudi Arabia secretly sent a hit team into a foreign country, Turkey, to kill a legal resident of Turkey. It's not quite at the level of the GRU allegedly sending a hit team to the UK to kill Sergei Skripal, but it's not far off.
And the killing occurred in a Saudi consular office on foreign territory, and the killers may have used diplomatic cover to fly in and out of Turkey.

That alone is a massively blatant abuse of diplomatic credentials, let alone the extrajudicial killing of a critic.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:16 PM
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While technically their consulate is their territory they basically sent a hit team to a foreign country to murder a journalist.


He was a Saudi citizen, US resident, & about to have a Turkish bride, which is why he went to the consulate - to get marriage paperwork.

He used to be 'tight' with the ruling party but had some falling out as he was recently critical of them. There had been multiple offers to get him to come back home, supposedly to a new job there. That could be seen as a payoff - take this cushy job & don't say anything negative; however, he rightly saw them for what they really were, attempts to get him back home to kill him.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:20 PM
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Just for the record, it's also a big deal when Putin has journalists murdered. It's just that no one can really do anything about it.
Putin usually has the decency to murder folks on his turf. Sending a hit squad to a foreign country to murder an innocent man takes it to a new level.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:21 PM
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Jamal Khashoggi was a Saudi journalist. However, at the time, he was living in exile in Turkey.
Thanks. My first exposure was on the lines of the potential consequences between Turkey and Saudi Arabia with details of the killing itself assumed to already be known by the reader. I didn't and didn't bother.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:22 PM
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Putin usually has the decency to murder folks on his turf. Sending a hit squad to a foreign country to murder an innocent man takes it to a new level.
He's poisoned folks in the UK too.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:25 PM
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Putin usually has the decency to murder folks on his turf. Sending a hit squad to a foreign country to murder an innocent man takes it to a new level.
I thought this was reasonably common. I've read stories about both Iraq under Saddam and North Korea doing this.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:30 PM
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Putin usually has the decency to murder folks on his turf. Sending a hit squad to a foreign country to murder an innocent man takes it to a new level.
What part of "Putin does it, too" did you miss?
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:00 PM
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Khashoggi was a Saudi citizen with Turkish roots, self-exiled in fear of arrest, legally living in the US with a green card.

He was engaged to a Turkish woman and needed paperwork from the Saudi government to be allowed to marry in Turkey. He disappeared when going to the consulate to pick up the paperwork.

He contributed frequently to the Washington Post. Imagine if he had visited the Saudi consulate in DC - would he have disappeared?

If that is not enough to make it a big issue, it is reported that the suspect team of 15 Saudis who flew into Turkey brought a bone saw to help them get him out the consulate. Nothing like a little gore to trigger interesting rumors and news coverage.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by si_blakely View Post
And the killing occurred in a Saudi consular office on foreign territory, and the killers may have used diplomatic cover to fly in and out of Turkey.

That alone is a massively blatant abuse of diplomatic credentials, let alone the extrajudicial killing of a critic.
And if the Turkish intel is accurate, he wasn't only killed, but hacked up with a bone saw.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:25 PM
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And if the Turkish intel is accurate, he wasn't only killed, but hacked up with a bone saw.
Well multiple little diplomatic pouches are a lot less conspicuous than one large, body-bag shaped one.
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:36 PM
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The issue is American hypocrisy.

Saudi Arabia is both one of the most oppressive governments in the world, and our closest military ally in the Muslim world.

We also have a massive arms deal with them in which they purchase, what, over $100 million (or is it billion) worth from us.

Trump came out and basically said, "yeah they're evil, but cha-ching!"
  #22  
Old 10-12-2018, 10:27 PM
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MSNBC is reporting that he was wearing an Apple watch and had it set to continuously send an audio stream to a server, so the authorities have audio of everything that happened.

I can't imagine that he anticipated being murdered. Presumably he wouldn't have gone in if he suspected that. Maybe as a reporter he just thought that he should record on the off chance something newsworthy happened.
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:35 PM
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MSNBC is reporting that he was wearing an Apple watch and had it set to continuously send an audio stream to a server, so the authorities have audio of everything that happened.

I can't imagine that he anticipated being murdered. Presumably he wouldn't have gone in if he suspected that. Maybe as a reporter he just thought that he should record on the off chance something newsworthy happened.
So who got the audio stream out of his encrypted iCloud account?

... or was this a story from Turkish intelligence to deflect from their bugging?
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:44 PM
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So who got the audio stream out of his encrypted iCloud account?

... or was this a story from Turkish intelligence to deflect from their bugging?
They said that he left his phone outside with his girlfriend, so may the phone was logged in, or maybe his girlfriend knew his password.
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:42 AM
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The murdered journalist was a Saudi living in the US and who wrote regularly for the Washington Post. Saudi Arabia murdered him in Turkey and Trump said it was no reason to stop selling arms to the Saudis. As Pax Americana ends and authoritarianism rises, despotic regimes like Saudi Arabia feel emboldened, confident that there is no check on them, even when they kill outside of their own country.
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:49 AM
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The murdered journalist was a Saudi living in the US and who wrote regularly for the Washington Post. Saudi Arabia murdered him in Turkey and Trump said it was no reason to stop selling arms to the Saudis. As Pax Americana ends and authoritarianism rises, despotic regimes like Saudi Arabia feel emboldened, confident that there is no check on them, even when they kill outside of their own country.
Sadly, I think there's some truth to that.
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:58 AM
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You know, I think the Saudis might well be innocent here. I mean, there is obvious but on the face of it deniable action like the Markov killing of the Salisbury poisoning, and then there is well....this. The Saudis have to know that even if the guy tripped his own shoelaces and broke his hip inside the consulate, they would be blamed. Seriously, if they intended to kill him, at this rate, it would have been better to take him back home and set up an appontment for him at chop chop square.

Looking evil is “meh”. Looking stupid on the other hand....
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Old 10-13-2018, 08:37 AM
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You know, I think the Saudis might well be innocent here. I mean, there is obvious but on the face of it deniable action like the Markov killing of the Salisbury poisoning, and then there is well....this. The Saudis have to know that even if the guy tripped his own shoelaces and broke his hip inside the consulate, they would be blamed. Seriously, if they intended to kill him, at this rate, it would have been better to take him back home and set up an appontment for him at chop chop square.

Looking evil is “meh”. Looking stupid on the other hand....
It doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? Just how desperately did they need this guy dead, and couldn't they have arranged a fake burglary or mugging where they'd at least have some plausible deniability rather than do it in a way that points right at them? Sure they didn't know he was recording but him entering the building then never leaving is enough to raise major questions.

On the other hand, if they didn't do it then the government of Turkey must have faked it all and his fiancee must be in on it. Why would Turkey want to do that? If they did, then what about his fiancee? Was she a plant all along; a government agent who seduced him and then agreed to marry him all so that she could tell a story about him entering the embassy building then never leaving it? It all seems too convoluted.

I think a clumsy stupid murder by the Saudis may be the least improbable explanation.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:10 AM
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1. Killing people, even your own nationals, other other country's soil is Not A Good Thing. Where do you draw the line? (Note: embassies are not part of that countries territory. It is still the host country's territory.)

2. There are some really bad things going on now that the US has officially declared that Human Rights abuses are not our concern anymore. Countries used to be somewhat concerned about getting flak over doing this. Now it's no longer a big problem.

Another example: the head of Interpol was arrested and detained in China. They kept it a secret for a while. While a Chinese national, this is an important enough person that keeping his arrest secret for a couple weeks is astonishing. They know they will not suffer any flashback on this from the US.

Expect these sorts of things to get much worse in the next few years. Much worse.

We are entering a new age of tyranny. And the US is helping, not averting, it.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:17 AM
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It doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? Just how desperately did they need this guy dead, and couldn't they have arranged a fake burglary or mugging where they'd at least have some plausible deniability rather than do it in a way that points right at them? Sure they didn't know he was recording but him entering the building then never leaving is enough to raise major questions.

On the other hand, if they didn't do it then the government of Turkey must have faked it all and his fiancee must be in on it. Why would Turkey want to do that? If they did, then what about his fiancee? Was she a plant all along; a government agent who seduced him and then agreed to marry him all so that she could tell a story about him entering the embassy building then never leaving it? It all seems too convoluted.

I think a clumsy stupid murder by the Saudis may be the least improbable explanation.
This scenario is suggested in this article in The Atlantic.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:41 AM
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You know, I think the Saudis might well be innocent here. I mean, there is obvious but on the face of it deniable action like the Markov killing of the Salisbury poisoning, and then there is well....this. The Saudis have to know that even if the guy tripped his own shoelaces and broke his hip inside the consulate, they would be blamed. Seriously, if they intended to kill him, at this rate, it would have been better to take him back home and set up an appontment for him at chop chop square.

Looking evil is “meh”. Looking stupid on the other hand....
One theory circulating is that the whole thing was an attempted rendition that went bad. I imagine the guy was smart enough to know that going to Saudi Arabia was a bad idea for him. Not that "setting up an appointment on chop chop square" for him is exactly what I would call "innocent" in any case...
  #32  
Old 10-13-2018, 10:00 AM
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The Atlantic article said this:

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Khashoggi had long-standing sympathies with the Muslim Brotherhood...
If this is true, why does noone seem to be talking about it?
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:07 AM
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Because it's not relevant.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
I haven't been following the news lately, but the murder of a Saudi journalist in Turkey is coming up a lot.

But why is this different than all the other oppression of journalists all over the world? Russia kills lots of journalists. Turkey themselves kills and imprisons journalists.

So why is this particular act such a global event? What makes this event worse than all the other murder and imprisonment of journalists?
Media attention does not correlate with some judgement about how bad a murder is. Russia and Turkey tend to kill Russian and Turkish journalists, who the rest of the world have likely not heard much about, and to do so in ways that don't absolutely link the murders to the government.

The Saudi's apparently went ahead and murdered ... okay, a Saudi journalist, but one who's a Washington post columnist and living in Turkey. And they did it inside their consulate, which doesn't really do much for "plausible deniability".

Quote:
Also, why is a global magnitsky act coming up? I thought that was only for Russia. Is this some kind of law that divests investment from any country that engages in human rights abuses?
The Magnitsky act punishes individual government officials rather than the country/government, and was expanded to the world in 2016:

Quote:
In 2016, Congress enacted the Global Magnitsky Act which allows the US Government to sanction foreign government officials implicated in human rights abuses anywhere in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_Act
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:31 AM
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That Atlantic article says that Turkish officials say that there is video of his murder. MSNBC has been saying that a Turkish newspaper is reporting that there is audio proving murder from Khashoggi's Apple watch.

Which one is true, if either? Are both things true? Is neither true? If there is video, what is the source of that video? Do Apple watches have cameras? Does Turkey have hidden surveillance equipment in the Saudi embassy?
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Old 10-14-2018, 01:45 AM
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There's an interesting article about Khashoggi in the Spectator, written by John R. Bradley, who knew Khashoggi well for years, and is an expert on Saudi Arabia.

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The fate of Khashoggi has at least provoked global outrage, but it’s for all the wrong reasons. We are told he was a liberal, Saudi progressive voice fighting for freedom and democracy, and a martyr who paid the ultimate price for telling the truth to power. This is not just wrong, but distracts us from understanding what the incident tells us about the internal power dynamics of a kingdom going through an unprecedented period of upheaval. It is also the story of how one man got entangled in a Saudi ruling family that operates like the Mafia. Once you join, it’s for life, and if you try to leave, you become disposable.
Interesting points from the article:

- For decades Khashoggi was a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood, and supported Islamist government throughout the Middle East. Before his death, he was the 'de facto leader' of the Saudi branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.
- He was a Saudi regime insider, and probably the only non-royal Saudi who knew the inside details of Saudi relations with al Qaeda before 9/11.
- He had recently turned down an offer of reconciliation by bin Salman.
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Old 10-14-2018, 06:55 AM
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Besides the whole bit about doing killings on other countries' turf, and this reporter being a U.S. resident and reporter for the Washington Post and other Western news outlets, there's been this debate going about MBS, the de facto ruler of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, who had to have authorized this operation.

To many U.S. foreign policy critics, he's looked like a nasty piece of work from the get-go, but of course the U.S. government is usually happy to get along with whoever runs KSA, and the Tom Friedmans of the world thought he was great. This certainly is a big mark in the ledger in favor of the critics' POV.

And that's part of a deeper debate about whether we should, or need to, be so cozy with KSA, given their horrible human rights record at home, and increasingly abroad (i.e. Yemen). It's been argued for awhile now that they need us as a market for their oil at least as much as we need their oil.

And of course there's the discussion of whether Trump's authoritarianism basically gives the green light to thuggery by rulers across the globe. This seems to support that proposition as well.
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Old 10-14-2018, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by GreenWyvern View Post
There's an interesting article about Khashoggi in the Spectator, written by John R. Bradley, who knew Khashoggi well for years, and is an expert on Saudi Arabia.
Quote:
We are told he was a liberal, Saudi progressive voice fighting for freedom and democracy, and a martyr who paid the ultimate price for telling the truth to power.
We are told this about Khashoggi? Maybe someone's saying it, but it sure hasn't been noticeable in anything I'd read about him. No question but that there was daylight between him and the regime, otherwise they wouldn't have killed him, but I haven't seen any accounts that turned him into some sort of fighter for freedom and democracy.

Does he substantiate that with links? Or should we downweight this Bradley guy for slinging bullshit?
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:29 AM
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You know, I think the Saudis might well be innocent here. I mean, there is obvious but on the face of it deniable action like the Markov killing of the Salisbury poisoning, and then there is well....this. The Saudis have to know that even if the guy tripped his own shoelaces and broke his hip inside the consulate, they would be blamed. Seriously, if they intended to kill him, at this rate, it would have been better to take him back home and set up an appontment for him at chop chop square.

Looking evil is “meh”. Looking stupid on the other hand....
Thing is, such regimes care less and less about being blamed. That is the frightening reality. In face they may consider the deterrence effect of being known to do such things to be more valuable that whatever weak political pushback they were expecting.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:22 AM
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We are told this about Khashoggi? Maybe someone's saying it, but it sure hasn't been noticeable in anything I'd read about him. No question but that there was daylight between him and the regime, otherwise they wouldn't have killed him, but I haven't seen any accounts that turned him into some sort of fighter for freedom and democracy.

Does he substantiate that with links? Or should we downweight this Bradley guy for slinging bullshit?
Perhaps you only read a restricted range of news sources. It took me all of 5 min on Google News to find the following, casting him in a very positive light:
"Conversations with some of Khashoggi’s close friends, who shared texts they exchanged with him over the years, reveal a man whose greatest passion became journalism itself — which he expressed in a fearless, unblinking commitment to the cleansing power of the truth, regardless of the personal cost."Washington Post

"Khashoggi was widely known and respected inside and outside the kingdom for his literary talent, political acumen and principled opposition to Mohammed’s increasing authoritarianism and arrogance." Washington Post

"Considered an authoritative voice on Saudi affairs, Khashoggi has also been a regular contributor on international news outlets. ... '"I have left my home, my family and my job, and I am raising my voice. To do otherwise would betray those who languish in prison. I can speak when so many cannot. I want you to know that Saudi Arabia has not always been as it is now. We Saudis deserve better," he wrote. In his writing he accused the Saudi government of ignoring real extremists in its crackdown, and he compared the crown prince to Russian leader Vladimir Putin." BBC

"He supported some of the general reforms that MbS was trying to put forward, including more rights for women. But he felt that if Saudi Arabia was going to go through a transformation, that the people had to be part of the conversation. And the Saudi leadership and MbS in particular increasingly moved in a direction where they didn't want any questioning of this new direction. And Khashoggi couldn't bring himself to agree with that. And I think that he was pained to have this break with the Saudi regime. He didn't want it." NPR

Last edited by GreenWyvern; 10-14-2018 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by GreenWyvern View Post
- For decades Khashoggi was a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood, and supported Islamist government throughout the Middle East.
Doesn't Saudi Arabia have in Islamist government? As the location of Mecca, isn't Saudi Arabia 'The Home of Islam'?
  #42  
Old 10-14-2018, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by alphaboi867 View Post
Well multiple little diplomatic pouches are a lot less conspicuous than one large, body-bag shaped one.
I'd hate to be the poor diplomat that has to carry out the diplomatic bowling bag.

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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
Trump came out and basically said, "yeah they're evil, but cha-ching!"
Remarkably, one of the few times he has been remotely honest.
  #43  
Old 10-14-2018, 12:43 PM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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OP: Note this is just a big issue to journalists, politicians and political junkies. For the rest of us local issues ("woman killed while jogging", "autistic child goes missing", "young girl and her mother killed in fire"...) are much more important.
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
Doesn't Saudi Arabia have in Islamist government? As the location of Mecca, isn't Saudi Arabia 'The Home of Islam'?
The Muslim Brotherhood wants to establish an Islamic government via democracy, although they might only allow one vote (the one that gets them in).

They did exactly this in Egypt, only to be eventually forced out by a secular military government instead.

The Saudi government is not a democracy. They couldn't get along with the Muslim Brotherhood despite having some political beliefs in common.

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Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
Because it's not relevant.
These connections strike me as very relevant. Generally motive is relevant in a murder.
  #45  
Old 10-14-2018, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
Doesn't Saudi Arabia have in Islamist government? As the location of Mecca, isn't Saudi Arabia 'The Home of Islam'?
Well, it all depends on your definition of Islamism. Saudi Arabia is a Salafi state, which has major differences with the Muslim Brotherhood, who are often called Islamists. Basically Salafis are traditionalists (with their own austere and ultraconservative definition of tradition), and the Muslim Brotherhood wants Islamic reform and a political model that does not depend on dictators or authoritarian government. But they still want Sharia law.

From Wikipedia:

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The relationship between the notions of Islam and Islamism has been subject to disagreement.

Hayri Abaza argues that the failure to distinguish between Islam and Islamism leads many in the West to support illiberal Islamic regimes, to the detriment of progressive moderates who seek to separate religion from politics.[36] In contrast, Abid Ullah Jan, writes "If Islam is a way of life, how can we say that those who want to live by its principles in legal, social, political, economic, and political spheres of life are not Muslims, but Islamists and believe in Islamism, not [just] Islam."[37] A writer for the International Crisis Group maintains that "the conception of 'political Islam'" is a creation of Americans to explain the Iranian Islamic Revolution and apolitical Islam was a historical fluke of the "short-lived era of the heyday of secular Arab nationalism between 1945 and 1970", and it is quietist/non-political Islam, not Islamism, that requires explanation.[38]

Another source distinguishes Islamist from Islamic "by the fact that the latter refers to a religion and culture in existence over a millennium, whereas the first is a political/religious phenomenon linked to the great events of the 20th century". Islamists have, at least at times, defined themselves as "Islamiyyoun/Islamists" to differentiate themselves from "Muslimun/Muslims".[39] Daniel Pipes describes Islamism as a modern ideology that owes more to European utopian political ideologies and "isms" than to the traditional Islamic religion.[40]
  #46  
Old 10-16-2018, 09:57 AM
Nars Glinley Nars Glinley is offline
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Originally Posted by PastTense View Post
OP: Note this is just a big issue to journalists, politicians and political junkies. For the rest of us local issues ("woman killed while jogging", "autistic child goes missing", "young girl and her mother killed in fire"...) are much more important.
I agree with this. There were quite a few beheadings in the early part of the century (there might still be) but I'd be very surprised if people recognized the names of any of the victims other than Daniel Pearl.
  #47  
Old 10-16-2018, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Grim Render View Post
Thing is, such regimes care less and less about being blamed. That is the frightening reality. In face they may consider the deterrence effect of being known to do such things to be more valuable that whatever weak political pushback they were expecting.
Yes. Exactly. What monsters murder their own citizens over political differences.
  #48  
Old 10-17-2018, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
The issue is American hypocrisy.

Saudi Arabia is both one of the most oppressive governments in the world, and our closest military ally in the Muslim world.

We also have a massive arms deal with them in which they purchase, what, over $100 million (or is it billion) worth from us.

Trump came out and basically said, "yeah they're evil, but cha-ching!"
This.

I had the same question as Wesley Clark, and I followed the string, and it led me to A) arms sales and B) an excuse for Congress to create a kerfuffle for the citizenry to vote for/against their Rep in Nov, i.e. to agree or disagree with in the matter, like the citizens don't already have enough issues to kvetch over, and C) Trump's need to perpetually stir up furor and create distraction.

Sending the SECSTATE over there is stupid. But that's Trump for you.

It remains to be seen what happens next. Because at this point, the US shouldn't have a dog in this fight beyond common or garden variety concern for human rights.

And yes, the deal is for billions, but I can't recall the amount. (The site where I posted my thing is down, or I'd check.)
  #49  
Old 10-17-2018, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
From your cite.
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Two U.S. officials speaking on condition of anonymity stated that the target of the October 14, 2011, airstrike was Ibrahim al-Banna, an Egyptian believed to be a senior operative in Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.[8] Another U.S. administration official speaking on condition of anonymity described Abdulrahman al-Awlaki as a bystander who was "in the wrong place at the wrong time," stating that "the U.S. government did not know that Mr. Awlaki's son was there" before the airstrike was ordered.
You also don't seem upset that his half sister was killed by Trump. (Same source)
  #50  
Old 10-17-2018, 07:56 AM
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You also don't seem upset that his half sister was killed by Trump. (Same source)
You realise that that does not make it better?
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