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Old 10-12-2018, 07:44 PM
Contemplation Contemplation is offline
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Why do Asian women tend to lack muscle?

Inflammatory title, I know.
Why does it seem that Asian women who are from or live in an East Asian country seem to have very little muscle on their bodies?

On a college campus, you'll notice that is more common for an American girl to have a body like this:

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=h...-track.jpg&f=1

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=h...7c5541.jpg&f=1

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=h...3fca34.jpg&f=1

than it is for a foreign Asian girl.

It is more common for foreign Asian women to have bodies more like this:
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=h...630057.jpg&f=1

Niether body type is better than the other since beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Also I'm not saying that "all X look like Y" but this is an obvious tendency.

SO why might this be the case?
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Last edited by Contemplation; 10-12-2018 at 07:47 PM.
  #2  
Old 10-12-2018, 08:01 PM
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Ass kicked by girl.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:10 PM
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Tapeworms. Thanks to all the raw meat they eat, Asian Asians are 30% parasites by mass.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:17 PM
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Asian people are smaller in stature on average, but my subjective impression is not that they generally have less muscle tone. In any event, there's no "why" to answer unless you can present some evidence beyond cherry-picked photos that your premise is correct.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:17 PM
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Ass kicked by girl - part II
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:27 PM
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Primarily a low calorie, low fat diet with genes inherited from their parents who also ate a low calorie, low fat diet.

Steamed rice, stir fried vegetables and a little meat. No cheese, cakes, cookies, candy nor dairy products. Jogging, yes; weight lifting, no.

Most Asian females don't want to look muscular. They believe that a muscular look would be unattractive.

This is just my experience having lived in Asia for 7 years, being married to a Taiwanese girl and having her two sisters and mom around.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:31 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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East asians tend to have a lower BMI. Rates of obesity in Korea & Japan are only about 3% despite the fact that fast food and alcohol is everywhere there.

I'd guess if this is a real trend there is a genetic component but I don't know what.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Riemann View Post
Asian people are smaller in stature on average, but my subjective impression is not that they generally have less muscle tone. In any event, there's no "why" to answer unless you can present some evidence beyond cherry-picked photos that your premise is correct.
True because in my experience, most women# on american campuses* look more like this and this.
#self edited from girls to women. I did learn something on this board.
* note my experience lately is limited to campus visits along with my "looking for a school" daughter.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:43 PM
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I don't know but those first three pictures are very nice.
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:31 PM
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Tapeworms. Thanks to all the raw meat they eat, Asian Asians are 30% parasites by mass.
best answer.
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:35 PM
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Asians in general tend to have less muscle mass than Westerners, although that said, my Vietnamese lifting partner is one of the strongest and most muscular guys I’ve ever met. But, he was born in the US, so he had the benefits of our superior nutrition.
  #12  
Old 10-12-2018, 11:07 PM
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Why do Asian women tend to lack muscle?

Nope, not turning this into a voyeuristic exercise. Let’s see how this thread progresses, but I’m very wary of both racial stereotyping and a deconstruction of women's physiques.

If too many posts cross either of those lines, I’ll have to close it.

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Originally Posted by pool View Post
I don't know but those first three pictures are very nice.
No, this is anything but “the best answer”. This is exactly the type of racial stereotyping I’m refering to.

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Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
Tapeworms. Thanks to all the raw meat they eat, Asian Asians are 30% parasites by mass.
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Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post
best answer.

Last edited by IvoryTowerDenizen; 10-13-2018 at 07:46 AM.
  #13  
Old 10-13-2018, 12:57 AM
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Muscle tone is considered unfeminine in many cultures, including Asian. Even when known for action roles (Michelle Yeoh, Jeeja, Rina) you rarely see definition and vascularity is off the table. The Asian women I've known that look really fit have all mentioned getting some pushback from family and friends about it. But then, as mentioned above, few Asian men shoot for that look either without some sort of Western influence. Tae Yang of k-pop group Big Bang is the only overtly fit pop star I recall seeing - most guys have a skinny-fat androgynous look.

That said, you hear lots of American women say muscle definition isn't feminine as well. I recall it being a criticism back when Jane Fonda was the rage.

And remember, in the US a very small percentage of the population is fit-looking, among both genders. Our popular culture is skewed but the reality is something like 3% of the population works out regularly for more than a couple of years and eats a healthy diet (according to the Atlantic).
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by PoppaSan View Post
True because in my experience, most women# on american campuses* look more like this and this.
#self edited from girls to women. I did learn something on this board.
* note my experience lately is limited to campus visits along with my "looking for a school" daughter.
Thank you. *raises glass of yoghurt to PoppaSan*


(what? I'm having breakfast!)
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Mangosteen View Post
Primarily a low calorie, low fat diet with genes inherited from their parents who also ate a low calorie, low fat diet.

Steamed rice, stir fried vegetables and a little meat. No cheese, cakes, cookies, candy nor dairy products. Jogging, yes; weight lifting, no.

But, my Thai wife and her "sister" Noi both held world weight lifting records. This was in the masters division (over 40 ) and they competed against men. Wifey has very broad shoulders and cannot get clothes to fit. She deadlifted well over 800 lbs, her sister has done 900 and still holds the record. Noi is the winningest women in all around weight lifting. They both weighed 115 lbs when competing. My wife was often accused of using steroids, but she was born that way. Her youngest son takes after her, he is a dead ringer for Vin Diesel.

Here is Noi when she was lifting, large thighs for that 900 lb deadlift! She looks slim today.

http://usawa.com/tag/noi-phumchaona/

Dennis
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Mangosteen View Post
Primarily a low calorie, low fat diet with genes inherited from their parents who also ate a low calorie, low fat diet.(bolding mine)
What the parents ate didn't change their genes.

Quote:
Steamed rice, stir fried vegetables and a little meat. No cheese, cakes, cookies, candy nor dairy products
Cheese, cake, cookies, and candy are very popular in Indonesia, which last time I checked was part of Asia. Anyone who doesn't believe me can Google "resep keju" which is Indonesian for "cheese recipe."


Quote:
This is just my experience having lived in Asia for 7 years, being married to a Taiwanese girl and having her two sisters and mom around.
Fair enough. I'll see your 7 years and raise you with my 17, which suggest a somewhat more nuanced view than what you offer. I'm not saying your experience is wrong (though I have to admit, anyone who says they married a "girl" loses a few points ... did you really marry a child, or an actual woman; I'm guessing the latter despite your language). But my personal experience is no less valid than yours, and I don't reach the same conclusions.
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Old 10-13-2018, 04:03 AM
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I know if I say "culture" it will sound overly PC, but...this one really is mostly culture.

I live in Shanghai. The idea of a toned physique looking good on a woman is pretty new; mostly women just want to be slim.
And there's a different relationship with exercise -- a larger proportion of people do daily exercise here than in the west, but most of that exercise is fairly light -- walking, tai chi, stretching.

Also of course the photos in the OP are hardly a representative sample; I don't recall ever seeing muscular butts that big IRL.
If we are going to take it to that extreme, I would in fact question the premise. Because, while I agree that probably a higher proportion of western women are muscular compared to the same age group of asian women, if we're looking at the outliers of super-toned women, it would not surprise me if the same, tiny, proportion of women have that kind of body shape.

Last edited by Mijin; 10-13-2018 at 04:03 AM.
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:00 AM
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I'll go with a combination of genetics, diet, and culture.

Genetically, Asians tend to be smaller and slightly less muscular than people of European descent. But the diet also factors into this discussion because the tradition Asian diets in all of the Asian cultures I can think of consists of more rice, grains, and vegetables, and less on meat and dairy (and less processed junk as well). Culturally, Asian women aim to be slim and toned. Female bodybuilding and strength conditioning is just now starting to make inroads in some Asian cultures with significant Western contact like Japan, Korea, and China, and typically, only in major cosmopolitan cities like Tokyo, Seoul, or Shanghai, if at all.
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:24 AM
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Class and (sub)culture.

Women getting notably large muscles is analogous to, and often combined with, tanning. Do you see a lot of Asian women going out of their way to tan? I bet not, because they're, let's call them chiefly working class, aesthetic aspirations which are less often found in middle and upper-middle class communities.

Asian Americans have largely gone from cultures which were not affluent enough to have working-class status symbols which working-class people actually aspired to to being middle/upper-middle class and not caring much for muscled women and muscle cars.
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:39 AM
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Also of course the photos in the OP are hardly a representative sample; I don't recall ever seeing muscular butts that big IRL...
I think you just nailed the true purpose of this thread.
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Old 10-13-2018, 10:40 AM
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OP ignores a basic scientific principle: the idea of controls.

Compare people of Asian descent born in Asia vs born elsewhere. And compare 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation people of Asian descent in non-Asian cultures. In the US because of the policies that discriminated heavily against immigration from East Asian nations until historically recently, this is made a bit harder but not impossible.

And indeed, the early evidence is that for foreign born Asian Americans, BMI increases with the length of residence in the US compared to their peers who did not immigrate. And the effect appears more pronounced for those born in the US than immigrants.

And for those born two generations or more ago, Asia wasn't like Europe or the US. Food, while available in sufficient quantities in most countries, was hardly plentiful for everybody. And that's something we're seeing now. With the increasing availability of western style fast food, BMI is increasing in Asian countries.

Take a look at South vs North Korea. The average height of a South Korean male is almost a foot greater than his North Korean counterpart. That's due solely to improved nutrition.

TLDR; comparing apples to oranges is a mug's game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CairoCarol View Post
What the parents ate didn't change their genes.
Well, actually, there is increasing evidence of epigenetic effects to the point the expression of genes of children born decades after some traumatic effect (drought, famine, etc) can be affected and passed down even to their children. Their genes aren't themselves changed but the expression of them definitely can be.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:05 AM
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Well, actually, there is increasing evidence of epigenetic effects to the point the expression of genes of children born decades after some traumatic effect (drought, famine, etc) can be affected and passed down even to their children. Their genes aren't themselves changed but the expression of them definitely can be.
The evidence is extremely weak. The overhyped studies that purport to show this are poorly controlled, Lamarckian transgenerational epigenetic inheritance has never been demonstrated in humans. It has been shown in mice in certain circumstances, so perhaps it can happen in humans. Never say never in biology. But there's no evidence whatsoever that it's a significant process.

Epigenetics has been a hot field, and is perenially overhyped in the press, not least because it enables the tedious "Darwin was wrong" type headlines. Part of the problem is that transgenerational epigenetic inheritance (Lamarckism) is often conflated with the role of epigenetics with straightforward gene regulation, switching genes on an off in response to the environment. The former has not been proven, the latter is blindingly obvious. Of course we respond to the environment. The lead in to that article makes exactly that error, as these articles always do:

Quote:
Why do some identical twins look so different from each other? Could your eating habits during puberty have an impact on the genetic makeup of your grandkids? These are just two of the startling questions raised by the science of epigenetics...
The blindingly obvious:
Of course identical twins can look different, if they live in completely different environments, eat different diets as a trivial example. Who could possibly imagine that gene expression doesn't respond to environmental cues?

Conflated with the unproven:
Could your eating habits during puberty have an impact on the genetic makeup of your grandkids? Perhaps, but there's no convincing evidence for this. (And of course it's misstated, since he's talking about epigenetics he should say gene expression, not genetic makeup.)

Last edited by Riemann; 10-13-2018 at 11:10 AM.
  #23  
Old 10-13-2018, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
No, this is anything but “the best answer”. This is exactly the type of racial stereotyping I’m refering to.

No, that is a sarcastic post making fun of the OP. Buy yourself a sense of humor.
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:45 PM
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Mod Hat On

Discussions of moderator actions belong in ATMB.

Insulting a mod gets you kicked out of the thread. Go post somewhere else.

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No, that is a sarcastic post making fun of the OP. Buy yourself a sense of humor.
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:52 PM
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Before speculating on why Asian women lack muscle relative to American women, wouldn't it be a good idea to see if this is in fact true? Does anyone have any data beyond a few pics and anecdotes?
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:26 PM
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Before speculating on why Asian women lack muscle relative to American women, wouldn't it be a good idea to see if this is in fact true? Does anyone have any data beyond a few pics and anecdotes?
Old study but still, yes. Asians, and more so female Asians, on average have less muscle mass than do their White counterparts. They are more likely to hit what gets called "skinny fat" with normal BMI but relatively high body fat percentage (and more likely to have more visceral fat).

Quote:
Although Asians had lower BMI, they were fatter than whites of both sexes. The correlations between fat% and BMI varied by BMI and sex and race. Comparisons in anthropometry show that Asians had more subcutaneous fat than did whites and had different fat distributions from whites. Asians had more upper-body subcutaneous fat than did whites. The magnitude of differences between the two races was greater in females than in males.
Quote:
Although phenotypic body types may range greatly among Asians, a broad racial category encompassing some two-thirds of the world population, “apple-shaped” bodies are more common among people with Asian descent. They’re also more likely to pack excess fat between and around the organs, with abdominal fat linked to obesity-related health risks such as heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and inflammatory diseases.
More recent (pdf) - Asian females are a "special subgroup" in regards to higher percent body fat (which also reads as less percent body muscle mass) while having lower BMIs.


So it's not a completely crazy observation. The answers given, a mix of ethnic biological predisposition to certain body builds and an even more ingrained female cultural beauty standard of skinny as opposed to curvy, seem likely right to me.
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:29 PM
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Thanks, DSeid.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:14 PM
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But, my Thai wife and her "sister" Noi both held world weight lifting records. This was in the masters division (over 40 ) and they competed against men. Wifey has very broad shoulders and cannot get clothes to fit. She deadlifted well over 800 lbs, her sister has done 900 and still holds the record. Noi is the winningest women in all around weight lifting. They both weighed 115 lbs when competing. My wife was often accused of using steroids, but she was born that way. Her youngest son takes after her, he is a dead ringer for Vin Diesel.

Here is Noi when she was lifting, large thighs for that 900 lb deadlift! She looks slim today.

http://usawa.com/tag/noi-phumchaona/

Dennis
I'm not sure what to make of this post no woman has ever lifted anything close to a 900 pound deadlift. From my googling the record female deadlift is 573lbs and the male record is slightly over 1102 lbs. Where are you coming up with this information?
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Last edited by pool; 10-13-2018 at 09:16 PM.
  #29  
Old 10-14-2018, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CairoCarol View Post
Fair enough. I'll see your 7 years and raise you with my 17, which suggest a somewhat more nuanced view than what you offer. I'm not saying your experience is wrong (though I have to admit, anyone who says they married a "girl" loses a few points ... did you really marry a child, or an actual woman; I'm guessing the latter despite your language). But my personal experience is no less valid than yours, and I don't reach the same conclusions.
HA! I'll see your 17 years and raise you with my 30! Wait? Can it really be that I've lived in Asia for 30 years now? Yup. Damn. And it's been something like 38 years since I first came here.

Anyway, I agree with you on your points, including the question of marrying a "girl." That made me cringe. Concerning the claim that Asian women stay away from sweets, East Asian women love their desserts (for some reason men aren't supposed to enjoy sweets) as well but portions are quite different in the US. My kids were knocked away with the size of the ice cream serving in America.
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Originally Posted by Great Antibob View Post
And for those born two generations or more ago, Asia wasn't like Europe or the US. Food, while available in sufficient quantities in most countries, was hardly plentiful for everybody. And that's something we're seeing now. With the increasing availability of western style fast food, BMI is increasing in Asian countries.

Take a look at South vs North Korea. The average height of a South Korean male is almost a foot greater than his North Korean counterpart. That's due solely to improved nutrition.
This is frankly absurd. So cite?

Articles on the Net show a difference in several inches, not a foot. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17774210

From here: https://www.disabled-world.com/calcu...ight-chart.php
Country, .....male height ........female height....... sampled age
North Korea 165.6 cm (5 ft 5 in) 154.9 cm (5 ft 1 in) 20-29
South Korea 170.7 cm (5 ft 7 in) 157.4 cm (5 ft 2 in) 20+

Note that the claim that it's due to an "improved nutrition" is also incorrect. The heights and weights in North Korea are decreasing because of insufficient food now compared to before.
[QUOTE=DSeid;21265048So it's not a completely crazy observation. The answers given, a mix of ethnic biological predisposition to certain body builds and an even more ingrained female cultural beauty standard of skinny as opposed to curvy, seem likely right to me.[/QUOTE]Interestingly, my experience has been that the ingrained female beauty standard of skinny comes more from women than men. I have middle school students who are thin and complain about how fat they are. Adolescent boys are more likely to talk about video games.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:00 AM
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Bro...they don't even lift?
  #31  
Old 10-14-2018, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by pool View Post
I'm not sure what to make of this post no woman has ever lifted anything close to a 900 pound deadlift. From my googling the record female deadlift is 573lbs and the male record is slightly over 1102 lbs. Where are you coming up with this information?
Might not be a deadlift, actually a "hip lift", but here's a 2000 cite:
Quote:
NOI PHUMCHAONA WEIGHS 116 pounds but she can lift 911. At last year's U.S. All-Round Weightlifting National Championships, the flyweight from Thailand (by way of Cleveland, Ohio) lifted eight times her body weight, clinching her 12th consecutive gold-medal in the women's hip lift by hoisting almost a thousand pounds suspended on a waist belt, outclassing many male competitors.
Easy for those who don't lift to mistakenly think of that as a deadlift.

Still dang impressive!
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Old 10-14-2018, 01:15 PM
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Why did the OP pick just pictures of slim attractive women?

The nation's obesity epidemic continues to grow, led by an alarming increase among women. For the first time, more than 4 in 10 U.S. women are obese, according to new government health statistics.
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:06 PM
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OTOH, Japan has a problem with middle age men becoming more overweight in contrast to women who are not as much. Rates of obesity are still quite low for both sexs.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:55 AM
Brayne Ded Brayne Ded is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Great Antibob View Post
OP ignores a basic scientific principle: the idea of controls.

Compare people of Asian descent born in Asia vs born elsewhere. And compare 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation people of Asian descent in non-Asian cultures. In the US because of the policies that discriminated heavily against immigration from East Asian nations until historically recently, this is made a bit harder but not impossible.

And indeed, the early evidence is that for foreign born Asian Americans, BMI increases with the length of residence in the US compared to their peers who did not immigrate. And the effect appears more pronounced for those born in the US than immigrants.

And for those born two generations or more ago, Asia wasn't like Europe or the US. Food, while available in sufficient quantities in most countries, was hardly plentiful for everybody. And that's something we're seeing now. With the increasing availability of western style fast food, BMI is increasing in Asian countries.

Take a look at South vs North Korea. The average height of a South Korean male is almost a foot greater than his North Korean counterpart. That's due solely to improved nutrition.

TLDR; comparing apples to oranges is a mug's game.




Well, actually, there is increasing evidence of epigenetic effects to the point the expression of genes of children born decades after some traumatic effect (drought, famine, etc) can be affected and passed down even to their children. Their genes aren't themselves changed but the expression of them definitely can be.
I lived in Japan in the 1980's and the majority of adults were definitely not overweight, but the kids were beginning to become so. Quite a few tubby little kiddies around town. I gather that the problem follows the other Asian countries as they get affluent.
As for build, east Asians tend to have a lighter build and with less pronounced differences between the sexes, aka more androgynous. But note that word "tend". There are also regional differences; northern Chinese can be very big and muscular looking. As for the other Asians, there is a huge variety on the Indian subcontinent. The Sikhs in particular are definitely not androgynous.

Strength? They may not always look muscular, but they can be very strong.

As for genetic factors from famine, etc., I seem to recall that the kids of those where directly affected by the "hunger winter" in the Netherlands in early 1945 were born smaller and with some health problems, but curiously, some of this was retained in their children. But I would suggest that you Google that for the exact details.

Last edited by Brayne Ded; 10-15-2018 at 09:59 AM.
  #35  
Old 10-15-2018, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
Nope, not turning this into a voyeuristic exercise. Let’s see how this thread progresses, but I’m very wary of both racial stereotyping and a deconstruction of women's physiques.

If too many posts cross either of those lines, I’ll have to close it.



No, this is anything but “the best answer”. This is exactly the type of racial stereotyping I’m refering to.
The original post was offensive in the way that so many posts on the Dope are, in that they pay some superficial lip service to a "question" when the real point is to discuss the attractiveness of young women, with links to pictures. Seems like if men want to discuss women's bodies as objects -- which apparently many really really really want to do, since they try so hard to work it into every conversation -- they should go do that on a forum which does not purport to cater to all genders.

My post "best answer" in response to the tapeworm comment was meant to indicate applause for derailing the hidden intent of the OP very succinctly. If it was taken amiss, I apologize.
  #36  
Old 10-15-2018, 10:24 AM
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DSeid DSeid is online now
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As Riemann pointed out above, the studies for subsequent generation epigenetic transmission of the impacts of various sorts of trauma is not quite as solid as media hype makes it out to be. One example here of how doubts come up after the initial attention and get less play. Teasing things out is ... complicated.
  #37  
Old 10-15-2018, 10:30 AM
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CookingWithGas CookingWithGas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Contemplation View Post
On a college campus, you'll notice that is more common for an American girl to have a body like this:
You did not choose the second and third picture for anything having to do with muscle.
  #38  
Old 10-15-2018, 10:31 AM
kanicbird kanicbird is online now
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To me it appears like the customs see to value a very child like appearance of Asian women. Small frame, small feet, small breast, and low visible muscularity would be part of that. If this has held for centuries, which with the custom of foot binding seems to be the case, perhaps genetics have shifted in that direction with the desirability of a partner pushing natural selection.

Last edited by kanicbird; 10-15-2018 at 10:31 AM.
  #39  
Old 10-16-2018, 08:27 AM
MarvinKitFox MarvinKitFox is offline
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The one set of pictures is overweight, the other is not.
Your point?
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Old 10-16-2018, 01:34 PM
LurkerInNJ LurkerInNJ is offline
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The women in photos 2 & 3 don not have all natural buttocks. #2 appears to be a BBL, #3 is most likely implants because of the high conical projection. #1 is the only natural butt.
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