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  #1  
Old 10-13-2018, 07:08 PM
Xema Xema is offline
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"Insulting a mod gets you kicked out of the thread" ?

The title quote was IvoryTowerDenizen's response (in post #24 in this thread) to the following comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison
Buy yourself a sense of humor.
I think it's a reach to view this an insult worthy of booting someone out of a thread.
  #2  
Old 10-13-2018, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Xema View Post
I think it's a reach to view this an insult worthy of booting someone out of a thread.
In my opinion as a moderator, he was lucky to avoid a warning. He also violated the rule against disputing moderator instructions outside ATMB. He certainly deserved a note for the insult.
  #3  
Old 10-13-2018, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xema View Post
The title quote was IvoryTowerDenizen's response (in post #24 in this thread) to the following comment:



I think it's a reach to view this an insult worthy of booting someone out of a thread.
I opted to remove him from the thread because it was clear he wasn’t interested in meaningful participation, but to make fun and be insulting. I could have issued a warning for his comment to me, but decided the best course was to tell him to leave, since while he obviously was not interested in productive participation but the comment wasn’t so egregious. It was still a rude response to a Mod note.

Mod notes, warnings, topic bans, thread bans and the like are all tools we have to make sure threads swim along in a reasonable way. In this case, his sole contribution to the thread was a lame joke and arguing and insulting a mod.

Last edited by IvoryTowerDenizen; 10-13-2018 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:39 PM
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Finally, the mods put their jackboots to work.

Disagree. Thread boots are milder than warnings IMHO. Commentary on mod actions belong in ATMB. Methinks the mod showed leniency, though not inappropriate leniency.
  #5  
Old 10-13-2018, 08:00 PM
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Although can we discuss the original ... not note but sort of?

Darren Garrison's post was snarky and humorous but it was, ISTM, meaningful participation.

If he had stated simply that he thought the op was engaging in unfounded stereotyping that was not based on reality then it would have been allowed as meaningful participation. He made that point in that post by sarcasm.

Is sarcastic humor as the means of response NOT acceptable SD culture?

(His point being correct or not is immaterial.)
  #6  
Old 10-13-2018, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Although can we discuss the original ... not note but sort of?

Darren Garrison's post was snarky and humorous but it was, ISTM, meaningful participation.

If he had stated simply that he thought the op was engaging in unfounded stereotyping that was not based on reality then it would have been allowed as meaningful participation. He made that point in that post by sarcasm.

Is sarcastic humor as the means of response NOT acceptable SD culture?

(His point being correct or not is immaterial.)
There was no indication his comment was a satirical joke meant to cast a light on the quality of the OP, or really a joke at all. He claimed it was a joke after receiving a mod note that was a general direction to stay clear of posts that play into ethnic stereotypes. Joke or not, that’s what his post did.

I can buy he thought he was being funny by complimenting an over the top offensive stereotype post, but I don’t buy it was meaningful commentary on the foolishness of the OP.
  #7  
Old 10-13-2018, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
I opted to remove him from the thread because it was clear he wasn’t interested in meaningful participation, but to make fun and be insulting.

Frankly, I thought I was making the first of very few snarky comments before the thread was instantly closed as soon as a mod saw it. The thread was obviously started only so that the OP could post pix of "hot girls" and make extreme sweeping generalizations about them and I'm shocked that it was allowed to remain open. A thread will get a mod note because someone states that they thought that Nikki Haley was "hot" so I'm shocked that that purely prurient and gratuitous one was left open.



(As for being "insulting", that is what I thought of you thinking that I seriously thought that Asians were 30% tapeworms by body weight, and therefore doing racial stereotyping--which is exactly what the OP was doing, BTW.)
  #8  
Old 10-13-2018, 08:38 PM
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Huh. I had read it that way (as a comment based on his perception that the op was foolish stereotyping, good-naturedly mocking it some) and laughed when I read it. I suspect Ulfreida's "best post" comment, which you also mentioned, was also interpreting it that way.

Obviously a joke that landed flat on you ...
  #9  
Old 10-13-2018, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
Frankly, I thought I was making the first of very few snarky comments before the thread was instantly closed as soon as a mod saw it. The thread was obviously started only so that the OP could post pix of "hot girls" and make extreme sweeping generalizations about them and I'm shocked that it was allowed to remain open. A thread will get a mod note because someone states that they thought that Nikki Haley was "hot" so I'm shocked that that purely prurient and gratuitous one was left open.



(As for being "insulting", that is what I thought of you thinking that I seriously thought that Asians were 30% tapeworms by body weight, and therefore doing racial stereotyping--which is exactly what the OP was doing, BTW.)
I gave the thread a chance. The mod notes I added have been respected and an interesting discussion ensued about general differences among different ethnicities. I did not see it as just an excuse to post girly picks. The straw man comparison to the Nikki Haley thread is a nonstarter.

Second, your motivation for making your insulting comment is irrelevant. Your comment “the best answer” did not read as a joke comment. Not that you agreed with the comment but that you thought the comment was “the best” (the funniest, as I read it). I said that it was not the best, as in “ethnic jabs are not the best answer”. Context of the Mod note is actually relevent.

However, even IF I thought you meant it as total agreement, arguing in thread and insulting me was not the right choice.

Regretting giving you the benefit of the doubt and cutting you slack, now.
  #10  
Old 10-13-2018, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Huh. I had read it that way (as a comment based on his perception that the op was foolish stereotyping, good-naturedly mocking it some) and laughed when I read it. I suspect Ulfreida's "best post" comment, which you also mentioned, was also interpreting it that way.

Obviously a joke that landed flat on you ...
Joke or not, the point was to prevent the thread from devolving into ethnic comments (jokes or otherwise), as my Mod note stated. How I perceived it as a joke is irrelevant. I was managing the thread direction not giving it a four star review for humor.

And joke or not, arguing with and insulting a mod is never the right course.

Last edited by IvoryTowerDenizen; 10-13-2018 at 08:47 PM.
  #11  
Old 10-13-2018, 08:51 PM
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Second, your motivation for making your insulting comment is irrelevant. Your comment “the best answer” did not read as a joke comment. Not that you agreed with the comment but that you thought the comment was “the best” (the funniest, as I read it). I said that it was not the best, as in “ethnic jabs are not the best answer”. Context of the Mod note is actually relevent.

Now you are conflating two separate posts by two separate posters. I made the original comment, somebody else made the "best post" comment. And you can say that comparing the girly photos allowed to the Nikki Haley case is a straw man if you wish, I still see it as wildly inconsistent moderating.
  #12  
Old 10-13-2018, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
... racial stereotyping--which is exactly what the OP was doing, BTW.)
Yet hot girls pix notwithstanding the op's observation actually DOES have some factual basis. There is a strong (even stronger than current American and of longer history) standard for female beauty in many Asian cultures that is extreme thin not athletic or curvy and it is true that Asian females tend to have less muscle mass at normal to low normal BMIs than do White females.

IMHO, the op could/should have been made with asking if it is true rather than using those pictures as "evidence", and the manner of the op begged to be made fun of ... but the question itself is not pure stereotype.

ITD, oh agreed that the arguing with instructions in thread (rather than bringing it here) was dealt with, if anything, gently.
  #13  
Old 10-13-2018, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
Now you are conflating two separate posts by two separate posters. I made the original comment, somebody else made the "best post" comment. And you can say that comparing the girly photos allowed to the Nikki Haley case is a straw man if you wish, I still see it as wildly inconsistent moderating.
Yup, got that flipped. I didn’t go back and double check who said which, which lead to that error.

Nevertheless everything I say stands. Making the ethnically stereotyping joke is as bad as labeling it “the best”.

Joke or serious, I was announcing to everyone that ethnic stereotypes and voyeuristic comments were bright line no-nos in that thread. I’m not sure why that’s not clear, but I hope now it is. I was giving mod direction for having a successful thread.

And, arguing in the thread and insulting a mod are not ok no matter what. That’s all on you.
  #14  
Old 10-13-2018, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Yet hot girls pix notwithstanding the op's observation actually DOES have some factual basis. There is a strong (even stronger than current American and of longer history) standard for female beauty in many Asian cultures that is extreme thin not athletic or curvy and it is true that Asian females tend to have less muscle mass at normal to low normal BMIs than do White females.

IMHO, the op could/should have been made with asking if it is true rather than using those pictures as "evidence", and the manner of the op begged to be made fun of ... but the question itself is not pure stereotype.

ITD, oh agreed that the arguing with instructions in thread (rather than bringing it here) was dealt with, if anything, gently.
I agree completely. The OP was dopey, but there was something there to discuss that was not pure stereotype. I think giving firm instructions and trying was better than just closing it immediately. I think most people want good discussions and gave everyone the chance to do it.

Last edited by IvoryTowerDenizen; 10-13-2018 at 09:08 PM.
  #15  
Old 10-13-2018, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
And, arguing in the thread and insulting a mod are not ok no matter what. That’s all on you.
And--you will note--I haven't complained about the being kicked off the thread, or started the ATMB thread (nor would I have started one.) Nor would I have complained about a warning if it got one. I'm noting the inconsistent moderating of "mysogy" here.

Last edited by Darren Garrison; 10-13-2018 at 09:15 PM.
  #16  
Old 10-13-2018, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
And--you will note--I haven't complained about the being kicked off the thread, or started the ATMB thread (nor would I have started one.) I'm noting the inconsistent moderating of "mysogy" here.
Ok, but the topic of this thread is about being kicked out, and I wanted to make that clear.

If you want to debate the consistency of mysogeny modding, that may be better suited to a new thread with an OP that has illustrative links and a descriptive title. Serious suggestion- no snark intended.

Last edited by IvoryTowerDenizen; 10-13-2018 at 09:17 PM.
  #17  
Old 10-13-2018, 09:34 PM
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Mod should have banned everyone in the thread. There was a time when a Mod would ban everyone on the board for such temerity...
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  #18  
Old 10-13-2018, 10:49 PM
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  #19  
Old 10-14-2018, 02:17 PM
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Anyone who knows Darrern knows he's a jokester, and he's usually a pretty good one. It would be difficult to inerporet his first post as anything but satirical. But his reply to ITD afterwards was out of line, and I think he's knows that.

Having said that, I'll just add that I'm A-OK with closing that type of thread right off the bat. Maybe tell the OP to PM a mod if he wants to argue his case for re-opening the thread if it's felt he needs a second chance.
  #20  
Old 10-14-2018, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
Anyone who knows Darrern knows he's a jokester, and he's usually a pretty good one. It would be difficult to inerporet his first post as anything but satirical. But his reply to ITD afterwards was out of line, and I think he's knows that.



Having said that, I'll just add that I'm A-OK with closing that type of thread right off the bat. Maybe tell the OP to PM a mod if he wants to argue his case for re-opening the thread if it's felt he needs a second chance.


Once again, my mod note was to inform the participants that posts (jokes or otherwise) that rely on ethnic stereotyping are not ok.

I’m not sure why the assumption was I didn’t get that the first post was a joke. The joke status was just irrelevant.

I mentioned the “best answer” post (which I misattributed to Darren) I didn’t think was a joke (ie the poster did think that joking post was the best answer for whatever reason). Perhaps that’s some of the confusion.

That Darren is a known jokester is irrelevant (and I know). The point was ethnic jokes was not ok.
  #21  
Old 10-14-2018, 03:45 PM
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Anyone who knows Darrern knows he's a jokester, and he's usually a pretty good one.
Well, what I know of Darren can only be probably whispered into a hole on the bank of the Pactolus river.

Last edited by UY Scuti; 10-14-2018 at 03:45 PM.
  #22  
Old 10-14-2018, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
Once again, my mod note was to inform the participants that posts (jokes or otherwise) that rely on ethnic stereotyping are not ok.

I’m not sure why the assumption was I didn’t get that the first post was a joke. The joke status was just irrelevant.

I mentioned the “best answer” post (which I misattributed to Darren) I didn’t think was a joke (ie the poster did think that joking post was the best answer for whatever reason). Perhaps that’s some of the confusion.

That Darren is a known jokester is irrelevant (and I know). The point was ethnic jokes was not ok.
I saw Darren using sarcasm to point out a rather racist OP, not making an ethnic joke. I think that's pretty common here when someone spots a poster making a not-so-subtle argument based on race or sex.

And I can understand not wanting mean-spirited ethnic jokes to be posted here, but if the rule is "no ethnic joke", I'm wondering why this thread was allowed to exist just a few months ago. You moved it do different forum, so I'm sure you saw it.

Last edited by John Mace; 10-14-2018 at 03:46 PM.
  #23  
Old 10-14-2018, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
Once again, my mod note was to inform the participants that posts (jokes or otherwise) that rely on ethnic stereotyping are not ok..
Surely not. Are you suggesting that we can't use satire to mock actual ethnic stereotyping?

Or are you just saying that's where you wanted to guide this particular thread to prevent it going off the rails?
  #24  
Old 10-14-2018, 05:18 PM
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Surely not. Are you suggesting that we can't use satire to mock actual ethnic stereotyping?

Or are you just saying that's where you wanted to guide this particular thread to prevent it going off the rails?
The latter. My mod note made it clear that in that thread ethnic stereotyping (either seriously or humorously) and voyeuristic posts would not be acceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
I saw Darren using sarcasm to point out a rather racist OP, not making an ethnic joke. I think that's pretty common here when someone spots a poster making a not-so-subtle argument based on race or sex.

And I can understand not wanting mean-spirited ethnic jokes to be posted here, but if the rule is "no ethnic joke", I'm wondering why this thread was allowed to exist just a few months ago. You moved it do different forum, so I'm sure you saw it.
In my opinion the thread OP was not racial stereotyping. Not sure why you think the thread instructions for that thread was some new global rule. It’s not nearly as complicated a situation as all that.

Honestly, I find it perplexing that my mod note telling people to essentially keep the conversation devoid or racial stereotyping and voyeuristic comments is being criticized. The thread had possibilities and I’d rather give it a chance than shut it down. Not a single Warning was issued, but general guidelines for a successful thread was presented a a mod note.

The thread you linked was a joke thread. This thread was an attempt at a serious discussion. To directly compare the two and expect the exact same moderation is baffling.

Last edited by IvoryTowerDenizen; 10-14-2018 at 05:27 PM.
  #25  
Old 10-14-2018, 05:24 PM
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  #26  
Old 10-14-2018, 05:24 PM
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  #27  
Old 10-14-2018, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
Honestly, I find it perplexing that my mod note telling people to essentially keep the conversation devoid or racial stereotyping and voyeuristic comments is being criticized.
My tiny little data point: I read Darren Garrison's comment as satirical. Based on comments by Darren and others in this thread, this is a correct reading and I was not the only one to read it as he intended. By satirizing the OP, he was poking fun at racial stereotyping and voyeurism.

So, if you don't want to promote stereotyping and voyeurism, and he's making fun of the same, shouldn't you see yourselves as being on the same side?

Granted, the "buy yourself a sense of humor" comment might have been a little over the line, since it was directed at a mod. But it's disheartening when moderators willfully refuse to understand perfectly reasonable, and reasonably clever, humorous remarks. This seems to be happening more and more often on this board, and it's painful to watch.
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  #28  
Old 10-14-2018, 07:17 PM
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I’ll reiterate my point one more time and then I’m not sure what else to say.

“Sides” have nothing to with it. I knew Darren's comment was joke. That wasn’t the issue with it. I held it up as an example what should not be done in that thread, for any reason.

I was asking that ethnic comments, jokes or otherwise, be kept out of the thread. Serious comments, jokes, or satire that introduced or reinforced ethnic stereotypes had no place in that thread. I stand by that direction.

Mocking the OP using racist satire was not the solution- report a thread if you think there's a problem.

And with this, I’m done saying the same thing over and over again.
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:57 PM
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So, if you don't want to promote stereotyping and voyeurism, and he's making fun of the same, shouldn't you see yourselves as being on the same side?
Personally, I don't see mocking stereotyping by making a highly offensive ethnic joke being the best way to deal with the issue.

Last edited by Colibri; 10-14-2018 at 07:57 PM.
  #30  
Old 10-14-2018, 09:36 PM
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Sure, being a dick to a mod earns a smack down, but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post

Mocking the OP using racist satire...
Racist? Really? Like saying the Irish eat a lot of potatoes is racist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
Personally, I don't see mocking stereotyping by making a highly offensive ethnic joke being the best way to deal with the issue.
Highly offensive ethnic joke? Is today silly hyperbole day?
  #31  
Old 10-14-2018, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
I’ll reiterate my point one more time and then I’m not sure what else to say.

“Sides” have nothing to with it. I knew Darren's comment was joke. That wasn’t the issue with it. I held it up as an example what should not be done in that thread, for any reason.

I was asking that ethnic comments, jokes or otherwise, be kept out of the thread. Serious comments, jokes, or satire that introduced or reinforced ethnic stereotypes had no place in that thread. I stand by that direction.

Mocking the OP using racist satire was not the solution- report a thread if you think there's a problem.

And with this, I’m done saying the same thing over and over again.
You keep saying it was "racist satire," but that only makes sense if you think he meant what he said. His post was anti-racist satire, because it mocks racism.

I agree his sass back was out of line. And I applaud you for not jumping to a warning, given the contentious issue. But continuing to assert he was being racist when he was being anti-racist is going to continue to cause people to object.

Also, what is the logic for not closing a thread when the OP admits they were deliberately being provocative, and has a history of posts just shy of the line? Why go out of your way to shut down any snark instead of just shutting down the thread? Or at least move it to GD, where contentious topics (e.g. those that touch on racism and sexism) are discussed?
  #32  
Old 10-14-2018, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blank Slate View Post

Racist? Really? Like saying the Irish eat a lot of potatoes is racist.

...

Highly offensive ethnic joke? Is today silly hyperbole day?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
Tapeworms. Thanks to all the raw meat they eat, Asian Asians are 30% parasites by mass.
To review, this was the hilarious and clever "joke" in question. Yeah, that's different than saying that the Irish eat a lot of potatoes, and I think saying an ethnic group is a mass of parasites is pretty offensive.

Last edited by Colibri; 10-14-2018 at 10:14 PM.
  #33  
Old 10-14-2018, 10:18 PM
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You keep saying it was "racist satire," but that only makes sense if you think he meant what he said. His post was anti-racist satire, because it mocks racism.
If you want to insist on nit-picking, it was an over the top racist remark intended to mock racism. The intent doesn't change the fact that the remark itself was racist.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:39 PM
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Why are all the mods in this thread avoiding the OP? The thread should have been closed immediately. The OP should have been warned. His posting privileges should be being discussed in the mod loop right now.

IvoryTowerDenizen, you blew it. Can we throw out the who said what in response to the offense and concentrate on the offense itself? That some posters managed to post like adults is not mitigation. That other posters managed to get themselves in trouble responding to ludicrous provocation is on your head.
  #35  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:46 AM
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Why are all the mods in this thread avoiding the OP? The thread should have been closed immediately. The OP should have been warned. His posting privileges should be being discussed in the mod loop right now.

IvoryTowerDenizen, you blew it. Can we throw out the who said what in response to the offense and concentrate on the offense itself? That some posters managed to post like adults is not mitigation. That other posters managed to get themselves in trouble responding to ludicrous provocation is on your head.
This. To let the OP slip by while coming down on a sarcastic response is ludicrous.

A minor point, but as a group, Dopers are pretty talented when it comes to the use of sarcasm and facetious humor. I'd think that in order to moderate on the Dope, one would have to be at least minimally competent in picking up on it. To me, Darren's post #3 in the other thread was about as seriously intended as Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal." I mean, "30% parasites by mass"? C'mon.
  #36  
Old 10-15-2018, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Why are all the mods in this thread avoiding the OP? The thread should have been closed immediately. The OP should have been warned. His posting privileges should be being discussed in the mod loop right now.

IvoryTowerDenizen, you blew it. Can we throw out the who said what in response to the offense and concentrate on the offense itself? That some posters managed to post like adults is not mitigation. That other posters managed to get themselves in trouble responding to ludicrous provocation is on your head.
I think it's absurd to suggest that people can't help but be provoked, and the language you're using here ("on your head") makes it hard to take you seriously.

The mods in this thread are addressing the question raised by the OP of this thread, which is why an insult directed at a mod got a poster removed from a thread. You and others have strong opinions about when a thread should be closed versus when a thread may be and/or should be steered in a better direction than it started. You're entitled to that opinion. We happen to disagree here, and IvoryTowerDenizen (as well as some of the participating posters) made an effort to make a useful discussion out of a poorly-laid-out OP.

If you think that's the wrong course of action, you're allowed to report it, you're allowed to PM us, and you're allowed to have conversations about it in ATMB. There's been a lot of very positive and helpful discussion in ATMB about threads like this (which ITD has been a huge part of), and I would like to see that continue. Claiming that a moderator's decision in that regard has somehow rendered people incapable of civil disagreement is folly, in my view.
  #37  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Asimovian View Post
There's been a lot of very positive and helpful discussion in ATMB about threads like this (which ITD has been a huge part of), and I would like to see that continue. Claiming that a moderator's decision in that regard has somehow rendered people incapable of civil disagreement is folly, in my view.
Agree.
  #38  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Why are all the mods in this thread avoiding the OP? The thread should have been closed immediately. ...
ITD already has explained, several times, that while the manner of the OP was (as admitted by the poster in the OP at least in regards to its title) inflammatory, the question itself a reasonable one and in fact had some reasonable responses.

She even began her mod action stating how wary she was ... of both racial stereotyping and of deconstruction of women's physiques, clearly to my read talking about both the OP and the responses to it. Her call was that with strict rails in place the thread could be given a chance.

Now I count myself on the side that felt the joke as a method of expressing an opinion that the op was engaging in stereotypes was a reasonable means of expression but her explanation is acceptable.

As far as the comments that the question itself (poorly framed as it was), of why it seems that young women who are from or live in an East Asian country tend to have less muscle mass than American young women do, is, in and of itself racist ...

Well those in the thread who have spent time in Asia or who are part of families with Asian members all responded in a way that did see the question itself as out of line. (I don't know if any of Asian descent themselves, especially women, actually responded though.)

It is simply true that different cultures and subcultures have varying physical ideals of beauty (true for both genders) and that different ethnic populations and subpopulations are prone to different body morphologies and growth trajectories.
  #39  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:58 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
I saw Darren using sarcasm to point out a rather racist OP, not making an ethnic joke.
Same here, unless I'm unaware of some sort of Asian tapeworm stereotype. It was clearly an absurd answer meant to mock the OP and the thinly-veiled "check out the hot asses on the girls in the OP" thread. Frankly, I'm stunned the thread remained open.

Last edited by pulykamell; 10-15-2018 at 12:59 PM.
  #40  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:33 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Originally Posted by Asimovian View Post
If you think that's the wrong course of action, you're allowed to report it, you're allowed to PM us, and you're allowed to have conversations about it in ATMB. There's been a lot of very positive and helpful discussion in ATMB about threads like this (which ITD has been a huge part of), and I would like to see that continue. Claiming that a moderator's decision in that regard has somehow rendered people incapable of civil disagreement is folly, in my view.
I'm certainly happy that I claimed nothing of the sort, in that case. What a totally bizarre reading.

I can't go back in time and report the OP of that thread as trolling. But I think it was. So we now have a discussion of what is the proper procedure to deal with such a thread? I thought that such threads were closed and the OPs warned or at least noted.

What should not happen is that the OP is given a pass and a mod comes in to say, essentially, try to ignore the trolling and find a way to discuss this objectively. That's entirely wrong and is entirely the fault of the mod. The only positive thing to say about that action is that I'm positive it's a wonderful way to encourage more people to troll here.

ITD blew it. I'm not calling for her epaulets to be ritually torn off. Just not to do it again if similar attempts at trolling are made.
  #41  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
I'm certainly happy that I claimed nothing of the sort, in that case. What a totally bizarre reading.
I don't think it bizarre to read "That other posters managed to get themselves in trouble responding to ludicrous provocation is on your head" as saying people can't be responsible for their own actions when provoked. But if you don't feel that's what you're saying, then I don't understand the point of your quoted comment.

Quote:
I can't go back in time and report the OP of that thread as trolling. But I think it was. So we now have a discussion of what is the proper procedure to deal with such a thread? I thought that such threads were closed and the OPs warned or at least noted.
Actually, you keep skipping a step, which is what I alluded to in my first response. First, there has to be a determination that the OP was actually trolling. I get that there are people in this thread, including you, who feel there's absolutely no question about it. But ITD did not state, "Oh, this is a trolling OP, but I'm going to let it go and just moderate other people in the thread," and I suspect you know that. I'm not going to speak for her, but I'm guessing she saw enough potential for trouble to make it worth monitoring and moderating very closely, but not enough evidence to close it immediately. That's a call we have to make sometimes, and as I said before, we [all in this thread] disagree on whether the line was crossed in this particular instance. I have absolutely zero issue with you or anyone else starting ATMB threads to make your case for why you think that was the right or wrong call.

But instead, I'm reading your comments as saying that everyone, including the moderation, determined there was trolling happening, but moderators just chose to ignore the trolling. If that's true, I think you're wrong, and I don't think the accusation really gets us anywhere. If you're just blowing off steam, so be it. But if your comments are meant to be constructive, then I think the discussion ought to center around why you think the OP of the original thread should not be read as anything other than trolling, and we can go from there.
  #42  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:20 PM
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I have to agree with Exapno on this, I found the modding on that thread confusing.

Regarding the OP, I thought the board had reached a strong consensus that men discussing what kind of women they find sexually attractive is just not something we want here? Not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with gossiping about who you find sexy, but there are other social contexts to do that, and it's not appropriate on SDMB if we want to make it more inclusive and welcoming to women. Nothing to do with suppressing speech, just a matter of etiquette - no different from saying (for example) that you don't talk about which workmates you think are hot in the cafeteria at work. Am I wrong in thinking that?

In that spirit, whether or not the OP was deliberately trolling, it seems to me that an OP with a pretty obvious salacious subtext where the "thesis" is supported only by links to pictures of attractive young women should have been closed immediately and Noted. Sure, there's the potential for a tangentially related serious discussion on variation in physique and genetics (DSeid eventually posted some interesting data, and ignorance was fought), but that can be accommodated by inviting the OP or anyone else to restart a new thread in an appropriate manner if they wish. As it is, to the extent that a worthwhile discussion eventually occurred, the thread is defaced by the inappropriate OP and reactions to it, and it's something that one might hesitate to link to in a related serious discussion.

(Instead, ITD's first modding action appeared inexplicably oblivious to the fact that Darren Garrison's comment was an extremely obvious satirical critique of the OP's inappropriateness. Whatever ITD's intended guidance, that obliviousness undermined it. it's not surprising that the modding got stuck in the weeds of peripheral misunderstandings after that.)

Last edited by Riemann; 10-15-2018 at 03:24 PM.
  #43  
Old 10-15-2018, 05:49 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Originally Posted by Asimovian View Post
That's a call we have to make sometimes, and as I said before, we [all in this thread] disagree on whether the line was crossed in this particular instance.
Then the step you mods need to do as a group is to read contrary opinions closely.

I understand the instinctive action is to affirm a mod's actions and that's what I would want were I a mod. However, if you find most posters agreeing that the mod made serious mistakes then you should all take a step back and stop responding with automatic defenses.

Every single person in that thread and this one knows exactly why people rose up in response to that OP. Don't even try to put the onus on explaining this on me.
  #44  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
I understand the instinctive action is to affirm a mod's actions and that's what I would want were I a mod. However, if you find most posters agreeing that the mod made serious mistakes then you should all take a step back and stop responding with automatic defenses.

Every single person in that thread and this one knows exactly why people rose up in response to that OP. Don't even try to put the onus on explaining this on me.
...please don't speak for "most posters."

"Most posters" aren't posting in this thread. It hasn't even made it to two pages. The only people posting here (or there) are those that feel strongly about this. I don't agree with you: I'm pretty sure that plenty of people who are blissfully unaware this thread exists might disagree with you as well. But I'm mostly "meh" about it. So that's why I hadn't posted until now. The mods made a judgement call. That's what they are here to do. You disagree. So that's why you are here.

But the onus is on you to make your case. Because you haven't convinced me. Don't put it on the mods to "accept a consensus" when a consensus doesn't exist.
  #45  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:37 PM
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...please don't speak for "most posters."
He wasn't. He was making an empirical observation about existing posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
I'm pretty sure that plenty of people who are blissfully unaware this thread exists might disagree with you as well.
How do you know? Are you are claiming to speak for most posters who haven't posted here?

I'm not sure that rhetoric is your strong point. How about just giving your opinion, if you have one?

Last edited by Riemann; 10-15-2018 at 06:42 PM.
  #46  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:37 PM
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I'm still trying to get my head around how Darren Garrison's response to the OP in post #3 was worthy of a mod rebuke to begin with when the OP itself wasn't.
  #47  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Riemann View Post
He wasn't. He was making an empirical observation about existing posts.
...a worthless empirical observation. A meaningless empirical observation. An observation that doesn't remove the onus from Exapno to make his case in this particular thread.

Quote:
How do you know? Unless you are claiming to speak for most posters who haven't posted here?
How do I know that plenty of people who aren't aware that this thread might disagree with Exapno?

Do you want me to link to the google definition of "might?" They "might" disagree. Or they "might" not. I'm not claiming to speak for other posters. I'm suggesting that its entirely possible there will be people that disagree with what Exapno Mapcase has said.

Does that clear things up for you?
  #48  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:08 PM
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Asimovian Asimovian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Then the step you mods need to do as a group is to read contrary opinions closely.

I understand the instinctive action is to affirm a mod's actions and that's what I would want were I a mod. However, if you find most posters agreeing that the mod made serious mistakes then you should all take a step back and stop responding with automatic defenses.

Every single person in that thread and this one knows exactly why people rose up in response to that OP. Don't even try to put the onus on explaining this on me.
I am truly trying to engage you here, but I doubt that I'm going to be able to get through your insistence that someone who disagrees with you is either deliberately ignoring the obvious or engaging in "automatic defenses." Good grief, man.

I don't think anyone in here—moderator or poster—has disputed that a line should be drawn when someone is obviously trolling. We disagree about whether that line should have been drawn on this thread. I am here, reading what you have to say about why that line ought to be drawn differently for this thread. ITD stated very early in this thread that she did not see the OP in question as "just an excuse to post girly picks." Isn't that the the key, here? That's how I understand the argument of folks who wanted the thread closed immediately. There are people here who feel that was clearly the OP's intent, and people here who aren't certain.

To Riemann's earlier point, the moderation is definitely looking more closely at when or if a thread should be shut down preemptively, regardless of whether the OP was deliberately provocative or simply being obtuse. We're going to continue to try to make the best calls we can on those. And to listen to feedback about those calls. But if the call we make is not the same call you would have made, it doesn't mean we're deliberately letting something go. Consequently, we're going to continue to moderate subsequent posts in the thread, even if posters feel the thread itself is controversial.
  #49  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:12 PM
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...a worthless empirical observation. A meaningless empirical observation. An observation that doesn't remove the onus from Exapno to make his case in this particular thread.
I think Exapno had already explained his views, if you read earlier posts. And I don't think it's worthless to note that a majority of actual posts were questioning the moderation. Not everyone necessarily agreed with Exapno, but he didn't claim that, just that the moderation seemed to generate controversy rather than consensus support, and perhaps should be examined more critically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
Does that clear things up for you?
Yes. It confirms that your speculation about what hypothetical non-existent posts might or might not say added nothing to the debate.

Last edited by Riemann; 10-15-2018 at 07:16 PM.
  #50  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:32 PM
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To Riemann's earlier point, the moderation is definitely looking more closely...
Thanks. Although the mods didn't agree that it warranted shutting down this particular thread, could you comment on whether my read on board consensus (and mod policy) toward salacious commentary about women is correct?

See my first paragraph here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riemann View Post
...
I've seen "she's hot" comments consistently shut down recently where they are clearly irrelevant and inappropriate to a particular thread, that much is clear. But can you just confirm that it's not just a question of thread-specific context? We don't want content at all if it's in the general area of "women I find sexy", right?

Last edited by Riemann; 10-15-2018 at 07:35 PM.
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