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Old 10-14-2018, 05:36 PM
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The attitude Democrats need to adopt.

Eric Holder, former AG under Obama, recently articulated the change in mindset that Democrats need to adopt in order to (finally) effectively combat the nefarious subterfuge and treachery of the Republican Party and the Trumpists. It was exactly what has been needed to be said for far too long. He said, "The saying that goes When they go low, we go high, that's no good anymore. When they go low, we kick them." Finally! Someone dared to say out loud that Democrats need to fight. We've been responding to the Right's dishonesty and destruction with high-minded hopes and benefits of the doubt for far too long. All it's done is enable the Right's manipulation of the electorate that is crucial to advancing their plutocratic agenda. We dont get down in the mud with the pigs, that would only get us muddy and lets the pigs have a merry old time. But we don't appeal to their better angels either. Because those angels simply dont exist. Instead, we engage, personally, critically, each and every one of us, and get the fuck up and overwhelm these hijackers of our democracy. We vote. We evict. We secure these American ideals that are in such precarious limbo now.
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:54 PM
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We, well really the media, should just point out the lies when they make them. Do it again, and again. And call it what it is. A lie. Not misinformed, not a mis-speak. A lie.

No need to roll eyes, no need to look for opinions. A lie is a lie.

That would be a start.
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:18 PM
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The Dem's really, really, really need to change their leadership at the top. Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Check Schumer, and even Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders are not going to excite the swing vote. And that crew gives the republican's an easy target to incite their base.
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:29 PM
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I think before 2016 democrats felt the public were informed and moral enough to not get suckered into the worst that the right has to offer (open racism, open support for authoritarianism, gross incompetence). Then Trump got elected, and Roy Moore almost did and the democrats realize that we aren't very different at all from the rural whites who supported Jim Crow 100 years ago.
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:31 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
We, well really the media, should just point out the lies when they make them. Do it again, and again. And call it what it is. A lie. Not misinformed, not a mis-speak. A lie.

No need to roll eyes, no need to look for opinions. A lie is a lie.

That would be a start.
As someone who knows quite a few right wingers IRL, they want to be lied to. Pointing out that they've been lied to is pointless.

For them the narrative is paramount. Truth means nothing. They have a simple, black and white narrative that they are emotionally invested in and that is all that matters. Facts are to be ignored, cherry picked or invented to support the narrative.

It might affect a few swing voters, hopefully. And it might energize the democratic base. And it may make the more moderate republicans think twice. But the GOP base want to be lied to. And just because that is insulting doesn't make it false.

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 10-14-2018 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:43 PM
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The Dem's really, really, really need to change their leadership at the top. Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Check Schumer, and even Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders are not going to excite the swing vote. And that crew gives the republican's an easy target to incite their base.
Who would be good leadership?

Of them, I'm of the impression that Pelosi is actually a pretty effective leader.

I'd like it if the democrats had efficient leadership who are willing to fight dirty and efficiently, but I'm not sure who that would be.
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:15 PM
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I think what is needed is a combination of effectively energizing disillusioned, apathetic Democratic voters and peeling away as many sane Republican voters through a campaign of aggressive, repetitious exposure of the lies told by the Republicans. While the number of Republicans able to be convinced to flip may not be all that substantial, that number is no doubt higher that what has been achieved up until now. I don't personally believe changing Dem leadership is a genuine issue. Pelosi is actually very good at what she does, that's why the right vilifies her as much as they do. If it is shown to be a larger issue then changing that leadership would be part of what's needed to energize apathetic Dems.

Last edited by Ambivalid; 10-14-2018 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:54 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
We, well really the media, should just point out the lies when they make them. Do it again, and again. And call it what it is. A lie. Not misinformed, not a mis-speak. A lie.

No need to roll eyes, no need to look for opinions. A lie is a lie.

That would be a start.
Republican voters really don’t care. Many if not most of their elected officials have openly and demonstrably lied and their apologists just dismissed fact checking as “liberal media bias”, as if there is anything biased about an overhead picture of the National Mall being notably uncrowded compared to images of other inaugurations, and it’s like a fucking blind spot with them. Mitch McConnell can hold back the confirmation hearing for a well-qualified Supreme Court nominee on the basis that the voters should get to decide on change of government prior confirming a new justice, and then two years later jam one through for a nominee under a cloud of conflict of interest and allegations of sexual assault right before elections.

Lying is now the Republican brand, which is unsurprising because the modern Republican party was formed by Barry Goldwater, Lee Atwater, and Newt Gingrich, all infamous distortionalists and fearmongers. They literally don’t care if you catch them in a lie; they just give you a look like the cat who ate the canary, and then hop onto the kitchen counter right in front of you and take a piss. They’re proud of their lies and the “leaders” who tell them. Everytime a Republican in Congress lies, Mitch McConnell gets a new chin fold.

I don’t think the answer is for Democrats to get down in the dirt with them, because then we just have both major parties filled with lying scum, and frankly the Democrats have had enough problems with corruption in the past. But they do need to stop playing nice or giving any benefit of the doubt to any Republican collegue who isn’t willing to extend a hand to support causes which ought to garner bipartisan support like the Zadroga Act or supporting open research on global climate change.

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  #9  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:01 AM
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You don't need to change anything. All you need to do is get off your collective asses and vote.

But you're not going to do that. You're going to wear your pink pussy hats and protest and shout down the mean republicans and run them out of restaurants and otherwise piss them off so they go out and vote while you pat yourselves on your backs.

Trump appreciates your efforts. Carry on.
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  #10  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enipla View Post
We, well really the media, should just point out the lies when they make them. Do it again, and again. And call it what it is. A lie. Not misinformed, not a mis-speak. A lie.

No need to roll eyes, no need to look for opinions. A lie is a lie.

That would be a start.
That doesn't work. There are a lot of weak people out there who would rather believe a pleasant lie than an unpleasant truth. Trump and people like him use this.
  #11  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:19 AM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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You don't need to change anything. All you need to do is get off your collective asses and vote.

But you're not going to do that. You're going to wear your pink pussy hats and protest and shout down the mean republicans and run them out of restaurants and otherwise piss them off so they go out and vote while you pat yourselves on your backs.

Trump appreciates your efforts. Carry on.
66 million people voted for Hillary in 2016. People voted.

In midterms only about ~40 million people vote for each party. If democrats can get 45-50 million people to vote in the midterms (meaning 16-21 million Hillary voters stay home, as opposed to the usual 26 million), it'll be a blowout election.

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 10-15-2018 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 10-15-2018, 03:07 AM
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I think the Democrats need to drop all this morality crap, the ultra liberal wing is starting to become more tedious than the evangelicals that infiltrated the Republican party when I was young. I never thought I'd see the day when Democrats would be bigger sexual prudes than Republicans.
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Old 10-15-2018, 03:16 AM
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I think the Democrats need to drop all this morality crap, the ultra liberal wing is starting to become more tedious than the evangelicals that infiltrated the Republican party when I was young. I never thought I'd see the day when Democrats would be bigger sexual prudes than Republicans.
Oh? Care to elaborate? I'm assuming you're not talking about the #MeToo movement, because that'd be really shitty of you (conflating "sexual puritanism" and "caring about rape and sexual assault"), but I'm kinda at a loss as to what you could mean.
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Old 10-15-2018, 07:42 AM
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You don't need to change anything. All you need to do is get off your collective asses and vote.

But you're not going to do that. You're going to wear your pink pussy hats and protest and shout down the mean republicans and run them out of restaurants and otherwise piss them off so they go out and vote while you pat yourselves on your backs.

Trump appreciates your efforts. Carry on.
I wonder how many people attended protests without bothering to ever call write a letter to their elected official to express their views?
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:35 AM
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Eric Holder, former AG under Obama, recently articulated the change in mindset that Democrats need to adopt in order to (finally) effectively combat the nefarious subterfuge and treachery of the Republican Party and the Trumpists. It was exactly what has been needed to be said for far too long. He said, "The saying that goes When they go low, we go high, that's no good anymore. When they go low, we kick them." Finally! Someone dared to say out loud that Democrats need to fight.
Well I for one agree that it's necessary for Democrats to stop being so nicety-nice all the time and turning the other cheek when Republicans stomp them.

It's distressing that Democrats don't lie nearly as much as Republicans.

Fortunately we're making up ground on fundraising.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:24 AM
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1. The media needs to continue publishing the truth, and start calling Trump and his allies blatant liars. Trump can ban every media outlet in the country from his press conferences, except for Fox News, but the so called "fake news" outlets need to continue to call out the corruption and graft the learn about every day, even if a large percentage of the country isn't listening.

2. According to the NY Times, a media outlet that most Americans trust more than the Administration, Trump was involved in numerous tax schemes that stole money from the American people. Nothing has happened as a result of that revelation. This needs to be front page news so Republicans don't forget they elected a crook that needs to be punished for his illegal activities.

3. Democrats have to be willing to hit back every time the Republicans lie and distort the facts. When facts don't matter we no longer live in a world of reality. As long as Republicans get away with telling lies, and their followers continue to support them, we veer further away from a true democracy.

4. Democrats have to get out the vote so they can win back the House, and perhaps even the Senate, so that investigations into this corrupt administration can go forward. If the country knew everything that was going on in the White House the legislative branch would then be forced to impeach. Clearly Trump has made a deal with the Russians and perhaps the Saudis. We need to shine a bright light and see what Mueller knows so we can oust a corrupt administration, including Mike Pence and his cronies.

5. The people of this country have to take back their government from the very rich who have a stranglehold on every branch of government, including the Supreme Court. If we need to impeach members of the Supreme Court so be it. Nobody is above the law. Nobody. The stock market may be up, which makes Republicans very happy (and rich), but for many people it doesn't matter.

Last edited by dolphinboy; 10-15-2018 at 09:25 AM.
  #17  
Old 10-15-2018, 09:55 AM
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66 million people voted for Hillary in 2016. People voted.
Yet the collective voter turnout was only 61.4 percent.

If the Democrats got their numbers up to 75% that would translate into 80 million votes.

So really, the only attitude that needs to change for you to win everything is apathy.
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:29 AM
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Yet the collective voter turnout was only 61.4 percent.

If the Democrats got their numbers up to 75% that would translate into 80 million votes.

So really, the only attitude that needs to change for you to win everything is apathy.
Your implication--that people who don't vote are also the people going to protests--is really weird. Almost certainly the overwhelming majority of people who go to protests are also going to the polls.

My wife is sending postcards by the dozens to voters in Georgia, encouraging them to vote. She's registering students every day.

I'm organizing teachers to vote en masse this weekend, and tonight I'll get to sign up to stand at polling places with "Apple Cards"--the endorsements of our teachers association.

And a lot of folks I know are doing similar things.

Meanwhile, Republican activists are busy, too, finding new hurdles to throw up in front of voters, knowing every hurdle, however small, will keep a few more people from showing up to vote.

Will our efforts be enough? We'll see--but the efforts consist of far more than wearing pink hats.
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:51 AM
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Oh? Care to elaborate? I'm assuming you're not talking about the #MeToo movement, because that'd be really shitty of you (conflating "sexual puritanism" and "caring about rape and sexual assault"), but I'm kinda at a loss as to what you could mean.
I'm talking about what you are doing right now. I have a general issue with the tone Democrats are adopting and you immediately enter into using terms such as "that is shitty of you". I don't like it when I see democrats using this rhetorical style, it dampens the enthusiasm I once had for the party.

I have no interest in getting into an argument about whether I am a good person or bad person for having this opinion. This is my opinion, it may be right or wrong, but I think it's a bit of a leap to say it is shitty of me to have it.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:09 AM
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I think the Democrats need to drop all this morality crap, the ultra liberal wing is starting to become more tedious than the evangelicals that infiltrated the Republican party when I was young. I never thought I'd see the day when Democrats would be bigger sexual prudes than Republicans.
In what way are Democrats prudes?

Last edited by Eonwe; 10-15-2018 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:29 AM
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In what way are Democrats prudes?
Not all transgressions are the same - there is a bit of a tone that everything is equivalent to rape.

The democratic ideas on consent have gotten much more stringent.

The "believe all women" puts men on the defensive in such a way that is different from any other crime.

They threw Al Franken under the bus for some off color humor he engaged in in the past.

The Democrats had much different views in the past - as can be seen in the defense of Bill Clinton.

Really it's not the prudishness that bothers me as much as the quickness with which labels are attached to anyone who disagrees with these changes - I used to see this as the exclusive domain of the religious right.

Last edited by Mr. Nylock; 10-15-2018 at 11:31 AM.
  #22  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:38 AM
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Your implication--that people who don't vote are also the people going to protests--is really weird. Almost certainly the overwhelming majority of people who go to protests are also going to the polls.
I wasn't trying to imply any overlap in that Venn diagram. Sorry for the misunderstanding. My point was that those protestors are having an effect opposite to what you want to accomplish by motivating Republicans to go vote when they might otherwise have just stayed home.
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My wife is sending postcards by the dozens to voters in Georgia, encouraging them to vote. She's registering students every day.

I'm organizing teachers to vote en masse this weekend, and tonight I'll get to sign up to stand at polling places with "Apple Cards"--the endorsements of our teachers association.

And a lot of folks I know are doing similar things.
These are exactly the things you need to be doing. Good luck!
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:19 PM
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Democrats went low with the Kavanaugh hearings - how'd that work out for you?

Perhaps you weren't clear enough. Every Democratic candidate for the House or Senate needs to make it crystal clear that, if the Democrats get control of the House and Senate, they will impeach Kavanauagh and Trump and Pence and every other Republican who stands in their way.

That'll show that you mean business.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:32 PM
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Democrats went low with the Kavanaugh hearings - how'd that work out for you?
You really are a master at this Shodan. It is despicable, but impressive in its own way.
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:58 PM
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Not so much "despicable" as "pointing out the obvious". Although I recognize how unpleasant it must be for Democrats to find out that when they are as bad as the worst Republicans, they still lose.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:24 PM
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Trump's approach to politics has been "total war" on opponents. He was this way in the primaries and eviscerated his competitors. He is that way now with the Democrats and other adversaries. This is what has earned him a solid 40% of the country behind him. The Republicans just happen to be along for the ride, and none will speak against their master, who is also implementing their agenda. Democrats need to get people to the polls, and vote only D all the way down the ballot - this is how Republicans vote, and so for now, we need to as well.

For the Democrats to change their attitude, they are going to have to come back toward the center to attract Blue Dog Democrat voters and peel away moderate Republican voters. A lot of these people are not so wrapped-up in the #metoo movement, or immigration, or trans-gender rights, but are motivated more by economic issues - mainly their own, IMHO. Hilary glossed-over these constituencies and focused on the safe coasts. Traditional D strongholds in the mid-west fell like dominoes to Trump. If the Democrats continue to appeal to their safe constituencies, they will lose again. They need to show these voters that Trump and the Republicans' economic and trade policies are hurting them - stop trying to convince people to vote along moral grounds - talk about their wallet.
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:30 PM
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Republican voters really don’t care. Many if not most of their elected officials have openly and demonstrably lied and their apologists just dismissed fact checking as “liberal media bias”, as if there is anything biased about an overhead picture of the National Mall being notably uncrowded compared to images of other inaugurations, and it’s like a fucking blind spot with them. Mitch McConnell can hold back the confirmation hearing for a well-qualified Supreme Court nominee on the basis that the voters should get to decide on change of government prior confirming a new justice, and then two years later jam one through for a nominee under a cloud of conflict of interest and allegations of sexual assault right before elections.

Lying is now the Republican brand, which is unsurprising because the modern Republican party was formed by Barry Goldwater, Lee Atwater, and Newt Gingrich, all infamous distortionalists and fearmongers. They literally don’t care if you catch them in a lie; they just give you a look like the cat who ate the canary, and then hop onto the kitchen counter right in front of you and take a piss. They’re proud of their lies and the “leaders” who tell them. Everytime a Republican in Congress lies, Mitch McConnell gets a new chin fold.

I don’t think the answer is for Democrats to get down in the dirt with them, because then we just have both major parties filled with lying scum, and frankly the Democrats have had enough problems with corruption in the past. But they do need to stop playing nice or giving any benefit of the doubt to any Republican collegue who isn’t willing to extend a hand to support causes which ought to garner bipartisan support like the Zadroga Act or supporting open research on global climate change.

Stranger
this. just look at the different narratives they paint depending on who's speaking: Trump acts like a rude, insulting jackass, and "he's just telling it like it is." If a Democrat says anything forceful, they're being "incivil."
  #28  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:31 PM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
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You don't need to change anything. All you need to do is get off your collective asses and vote.

But you're not going to do that. You're going to wear your pink pussy hats and protest and shout down the mean republicans and run them out of restaurants and otherwise piss them off so they go out and vote while you pat yourselves on your backs.
I'm not sure I understand this argument. That is: I think that the population that you think you're addressing mostly doesn't exist.

Do you think the people who protest and shout at republicans in restaurants don't vote? I bet they do. Those people are highly politically active. They vote. No one is thinking "ok, I'm going to devote X hours to political activity, but darn I spent it all on making snarky signs to carry in protests, so I guess I'll skip voting this election".

I don't think there exists a substantial group of people motivated enough to make signs and march and hound politicians, yet so apathetic that they don't show up to vote.

It's all the people who (maybe, some of us are assuming) agree with them, but don't vote and don't do any of that other stuff who need to get off their asses and vote.

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I wonder how many people attended protests without bothering to ever call write a letter to their elected official to express their views?
I would bet a lot, but also: Most of the people who participated in protests have elected officials who agree with their views. Because we're geographically self-segregating.

Every single position that I can vote for is already filled by a Democrat, and will likely be won by a Democrat again this election. Except President. I guess I could write my (female, Democrat) Senators and tell them that I disagree with the misogyny of the President. Would that accomplish anything? In contrast, making snarky signs and marching with my friends is kinda fun and fosters community and maybe if there's enough of us there'll be more news stories about how deeply unpopular Trump is. I dunno.

This is all sort of hypothetical. I haven't marched in any protests. But honestly I think I'm more likely to do so than to write to my congressman about how much I think Trump sucks. He already agrees!

Also, in response to the OP, this tweet is useful. When you have less than a majority in every branch of government, there's no amount of strategy or ruthlessness that's going to accomplish much. You mostly have to change minds and get people to vote.
  #29  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:33 PM
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They need to show these voters that Trump and the Republicans' economic and trade policies are hurting them - stop trying to convince people to vote along moral grounds - talk about their wallet.
That's going to be a tough sell, with unemployment at a 20-year low, wages growing, manufacturing growing, and general prosperity.

The Democrats tried that in 1984 - "who are you gonna believe - me, or your own lying eyes?"

They didn't get the answer they wanted.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:34 PM
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Democrats went low with the Kavanaugh hearings - how'd that work out for you?
A hundred million women voters in this country. And you guys just put another sex criminal to the Supreme Court. Who was put there by the sex criminal you elected President. Let's see how that works out.

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Perhaps you weren't clear enough. Every Democratic candidate for the House or Senate needs to make it crystal clear that, if the Democrats get control of the House and Senate, they will impeach Kavanauagh and Trump and Pence and every other Republican who stands in their way.
We won't be looking to impeach every Republican. Just the ones who have committed crimes. So probably not Pence.
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:38 PM
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... For the Democrats to change their attitude, they are going to have to come back toward the center to attract Blue Dog Democrat voters and peel away moderate Republican voters. ...
This strikes me as sound advice, but I'm reasonably confident the Dems will not follow it. It's all outrage all the time for them. Moderating isn't a skillset they have anymore.
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:39 PM
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A hundred million women voters in this country. ...
I don't think you've counted correctly.
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:41 PM
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Heh, Dems adopting 'total war' as it has been called is pretty much exactly what Republicans want. They are about destroying the system and faith in the system. Comity is the enemy. Any semblance that the current form of government is capable is a loss for them. Read about Newt Gingrich some time. To his breed of Republicans (which largely dominate the party) the government as it is now is an existential threat to America. There is too much power in the hands of people who don't know what to do with it. They see the government as a fundamentally flawed body that needs to be destroyed so that a new more powerful body capable of fighting against the world can take its place. "Going low" feeds them, it doesn't defeat them.
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:42 PM
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That's going to be a tough sell, with unemployment at a 20-year low, wages growing, manufacturing growing, and general prosperity.

The Democrats tried that in 1984 - "who are you gonna believe - me, or your own lying eyes?"

They didn't get the answer they wanted.

Regards,
Shodan
Agree. But I remember the Bush-Gore election in 2000 - the Republicans managed to convince a lot of people the economy was stumbling at the end of the prosperous 90s. There were other factors that led to Gore losing. My point is the Democrats are not going to win back any votes by only playing the "but, he is a poo-poo head" card.
  #35  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:46 PM
Mr. Nylock Mr. Nylock is offline
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A hundred million women voters in this country. And you guys just put another sex criminal to the Supreme Court. Who was put there by the sex criminal you elected President. Let's see how that works out.



We won't be looking to impeach every Republican. Just the ones who have committed crimes. So probably not Pence.
I see these sorts of phrases such as 100 million women voters, and I bristle at the notion that women should not be heard on this issue. That it should be assumed the vast majority of women think one way about the issue without anything to back it up is a but hypocritical in my opinion. You also say you guys; you should say you men and women in my opinion if women are going to be taken seriously.

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  #36  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:13 PM
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Oh? Care to elaborate? I'm assuming you're not talking about the #MeToo movement, because that'd be really shitty of you (conflating "sexual puritanism" and "caring about rape and sexual assault"), but I'm kinda at a loss as to what you could mean.
I'm talking about what you are doing right now. I have a general issue with the tone Democrats are adopting and you immediately enter into using terms such as "that is shitty of you". I don't like it when I see democrats using this rhetorical style, it dampens the enthusiasm I once had for the party.

I have no interest in getting into an argument about whether I am a good person or bad person for having this opinion. This is my opinion, it may be right or wrong, but I think it's a bit of a leap to say it is shitty of me to have it.
*sigh*

Y'know why I took that tone? It's because I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on you, and I know what it means when people accuse the left - the side of BDSM, freewheeling sexuality, LGBT people, and pro-sex feminism - of "prudism". It's almost always a defense of sexual assault! And what do you know:

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Not all transgressions are the same - there is a bit of a tone that everything is equivalent to rape.

The democratic ideas on consent have gotten much more stringent.

The "believe all women" puts men on the defensive in such a way that is different from any other crime.

They threw Al Franken under the bus for some off color humor he engaged in in the past.
"Off-color humor" such as playfully groping a colleague over her clothes and photographing it without her knowledge. I hate to be the humorless one, but that's not funny. It's just kinda rapey. Not full-on rape, but definitely sexual assault.

And "believe all women" is not a legal standard.

That said, we live in a society where something like 0.6% of rapes lead to the conviction of the rapist, one in five women get raped within their lifetimes, and men are almost certainly more likely to be raped than to be the victims of false rape accusations. Given that, your first concern is, "But if we believe women, men have to constantly be scared of false accusations"? Your understanding of risk is badly skewed, to the point where it's kind of a problem for the rest of us.

This is a major right-wing talking point - "If we trust women when they make accusations of sexual assault, men are in danger." And it's just not true. Women who come forward against figures who aren't well-known typically get ignored or worse. #WhyIDidn'tReport is instructive here; there's a whole thread full of people on this forum who were raped and explained either why they didn't report, or why their reports didn't end up mattering (or even hurt them). Those who come forward against public figures face substantial risk - as seen in the case of Mrs. Ford, who had to flee her home and go into hiding after she was doxxed and faced a massive barrages of death threats towards her and her family. That is the norm for women who come forward with claims of sexual assault against public figures.

Now imagine for a moment that, instead of some random cis guy, you were saying this to a woman, who has a 1/5 lifetime chance of being raped.

Sounds... kinda shitty, right?

Quote:
The Democrats had much different views in the past - as can be seen in the defense of Bill Clinton.
Yeah. That was a mistake. We defended someone who was almost certainly at least a serial sexual harasser, and we're gradually figuring out that that was a really bad idea. Were Clinton to ever run for office again, this would be a millstone around his neck - hell, it was a millstone around his wife's neck for merely defending him!
  #37  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:23 PM
Mr. Nylock Mr. Nylock is offline
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*sigh*

Y'know why I took that tone? It's because I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on you, and I know what it means when people accuse the left - the side of BDSM, freewheeling sexuality, LGBT people, and pro-sex feminism - of "prudism". It's almost always a defense of sexual assault! And what do you know:
You see I don't think your grasp of me is really relevant in this conversation. I can have an opinion, and you could say you disagree with that opinion and we could have a discussion about the opinions themselves, not about who we are as people. You seem not to have an interest in a discussion, you seem to prefer arguing.

That is what I believe to have changed for the worse in the Democratic party.
  #38  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:31 PM
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A hundred million women voters in this country. And you guys just put another sex criminal to the Supreme Court. Who was put there by the sex criminal you elected President. Let's see how that works out.



We won't be looking to impeach every Republican. Just the ones who have committed crimes. So probably not Pence.
I don't think you get it. I don't think you ever will get it.

Democrats went low on the Kavanaugh hearings. Here you are saying flat out that Kavanaugh is a sex criminal, and that he committed crimes. That's going low. And you believe that will appeal to 100 million women voters. I doubt that it will, because
  1. There aren't 100 million women voters in the US
  2. It won't appeal to Republican women voters, and what's more
  3. It won't appeal to fair-minded voters either. The less overlap between Republican and fair-minded, the worse off you are.
You're not getting it. That's not the kind of "low" you want to go, because it won't work. You're just not good enough at it.

Regards,
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  #39  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:57 PM
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I don't think you've counted correctly.
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There aren't 100 million women voters in the US
You're the ones who aren't counting correctly. You're locked in your Real American mentality. When you imagine the people who live in this country, you only picture people who look like you and forget about all the rest.

But here's the reality: there are over 326,000,000 people in this country. And 163,000,000 of them are women. So we can safely assume that there are over a hundred million women who are old enough to vote.

Do they all vote? No. But they can. (At least for now. Repealing the 19th Amendment is probably somewhere in the Republican agenda.) And you guys are doing everything you can to drive them to go out and register and vote.

You're right, Shodan, we went "low" - we've gone on record as being opposed to sex criminals. And you guys have gone on record as supporting sex criminals. Now let's see which position is preferred by the voters.

You can start yelling "Bill Clinton!" now. And you're right. He probably couldn't get elected in 2018 or 2020. But he isn't running for office, is he? Is there anyone with a history of sexual assault who will be running?
  #40  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:10 PM
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Yet the collective voter turnout was only 61.4 percent.

If the Democrats got their numbers up to 75% that would translate into 80 million votes.

So really, the only attitude that needs to change for you to win everything is apathy.
I believe that many people were convinced that a clown like Trump couldn't win, and they stayed home.

When a Democrat is accused of sexual misconduct, he is encouraged to resign by his associates, and does.
When a Republican is accused of sexual misconduct, he lies and his associates vote him in.

What good will it do me to write to my Republican Senators? They are following the party line, and they know I won't vote for them whatever action they take on any issue.
  #41  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:11 PM
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You're the ones who aren't counting correctly. You're locked in your Real American mentality. When you imagine the people who live in this country, you only picture people who look like you and forget about all the rest.

But here's the reality: there are over 326,000,000 people in this country. And 163,000,000 of them are women. So we can safely assume that there are over a hundred million women who are old enough to vote.
But (many of them) don't. Which makes Shodan right. There aren't 100 million women voters.

This seems like a silly hill to die on, when you could just say you meant "100 million women eligible to vote."
  #42  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:15 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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... Is there anyone with a history of sexual assault who will be running?
Spartacus
  #43  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:12 PM
Mr. Nylock Mr. Nylock is offline
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You can start yelling "Bill Clinton!" now. And you're right. He probably couldn't get elected in 2018 or 2020. But he isn't running for office, is he? Is there anyone with a history of sexual assault who will be running?
Corey Booker's name seems to get floated around a lot.
  #44  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:46 PM
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You're right, Shodan, we went "low" - we've gone on record as being opposed to sex criminals. And you guys have gone on record as supporting sex criminals. Now let's see which position is preferred by the voters.
There is not really, in my opinion, a huge difference between that and supporting sexual abusers. I get that there is a distinction between abuse and something criminal, but I still don't really see a strong foundation for claims of moral superiority.
  #45  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:55 PM
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But (many of them) don't. Which makes Shodan right. There aren't 100 million women voters.

This seems like a silly hill to die on, when you could just say you meant "100 million women eligible to vote."
But the Republicans don't have some huge base to fall back on. They're already a minority party that came in second place in six of the last seven presidential elections (and it may have been seven out of seven). And the numbers in off-year elections are similar.

This is why the Republicans are putting so much effort into voter suppression; they know they can't win an honest election and haven't been able to for a couple of decades. So they need to make sure that honest elections don't happen. That's my concern for November; not whether the Republicans will actually win but whether they'll be able to cheat enough to claim they won.

This is why women are a key factor is this election. Republicans already know they're going to lose with other groups and have made sure to suppress the votes from those groups. But they may not be looking at women voters; they may still think that their women will do what they're told. So that's a voter base they may not have adequately suppressed.

So to get back to the numbers, there are over a hundred million potential women voters in this country. But it won't take a hundred million women actually voting to change things. It won't even take ten million. It might only take as few as a million women switching parties to change the outcome of this election.
  #46  
Old 10-15-2018, 05:54 PM
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So to get back to the numbers, there are over a hundred million potential women voters in this country. But it won't take a hundred million women actually voting to change things. It won't even take ten million. It might only take as few as a million women switching parties to change the outcome of this election.
I am not in disagreement. However, it's going to be difficult to paint the women's vote as one predictable bloc. Sure, the left-leaning women are rightly outraged at this administration, but there are still many women who are not, and are good with the way things are going. You cannot assume all women will vote as a bloc. For every woman pissed-off and going to vote D all down the ballot, there will be another one voting all R. I think it will come down to which side will have higher turnout. As with everything, it will come down to the middle voters, and the Kavanaugh kerfuffle is not the only thing on women's minds (it has also motivated conservative voters across the board). Democrats should not put all their righteous eggs in one basket, or they will be disappointed, again. They need to appeal to a broad spectrum of voters who are thinking about other issues.
  #47  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:03 PM
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You're right, Shodan, we went "low" - we've gone on record as being opposed to sex criminals. And you guys have gone on record as supporting sex criminals. Now let's see which position is preferred by the voters.
The Democrats went low claiming that an accusation is as good as a conviction.
The Republicans went high on the standard of innocent until proven guilty.

I'd like to think the voters will choose based on that standard.
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  #48  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:28 PM
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The Democrats went low claiming that an accusation is as good as a conviction.
The Republicans went high on the standard of innocent until proven guilty.
Neither of these statements is true.

Stranger
  #49  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:47 PM
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Democrats went low with the Kavanaugh hearings - how'd that work out for you?
If by went low, you mean "pointing out that the nominee for SCOTUS was a dissembling partisan hack with a drinking problem and breathtaking anger-management issues," yeah, not as well as it should have. But thanks for asking.
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  #50  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:53 PM
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That's going to be a tough sell, with unemployment at a 20-year low, wages growing, manufacturing growing, and general prosperity.
Only the first of these is mainly true. Wages, when matched up to the cost of living, have not grown significantly since the eighties. Where precisely is manufacturing "growing" (at least within the continental U.S.)? And it's hard to call it "general prosperity" since the middle class for all intents and purposes no longer exists and nearly everyone below the top 10% have to work two jobs to make ends meet.
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