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  #1  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:26 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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So Warren has Native American ancestry, 8 generations ago. Is she a minority?

This issue has always personally rankled me. I have a great, great grandmother that is native American. She's in an old family photo. I've visited her grave in our family cemetery. My family has never learned which tribe she's from or much about her childhood.

I would never refer to myself as a minority or use it to my advantage. That's an insult to the real Native Americans struggling in this country. They've already been exploited enough imho.

Warren should have immediately had that Harvard entry retracted and corrected. Imho

Harvard insists it didn't advance her career. But Warren needs to lay off the the claims of native American heritage. It's unseemly and just wrong to appropriate another culture.

Just imagine a person with a black ancestor, 8 generations ago claiming black heritage.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/10/15/pol...www.cnn.com%2F
Quote:
Bustamante's analysis places Warren's Native American ancestor between six and 10 generations ago, with the report estimating eight generations. "The identity of the sample donor, Elizabeth Warren, was not known to the analyst during the time the work was performed," the report says.
<snip>
Warren's purported Native American heritage was touted by Harvard Law School when she was a professor there. But Warren's video includes testimonials from faculty at Harvard Law, the University of Houston, University of Pennsylvania Law School and UT Austin School of Law insisting Warren's professional advancement was not tied to it.

"Her heritage had no bearing on her hiring," Jay Westbrook of the UT Austin School of Law says in the video. "Period."

Last edited by aceplace57; 10-15-2018 at 12:29 PM.
  #2  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:34 PM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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Harvard insists it didn't advance her career. But Warren needs to lay off the the claims of native American heritage. It's unseemly and just wrong to appropriate another culture.
From what I can see, Elizabeth Warren doesn't make these claims today. It's Donald Trump and his ilk who keep bringing it up. And Trump promised a million-dollar donation to charity if she took a DNA test but is now reneging on that.
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:36 PM
Caldazar Caldazar is offline
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No idea if Warren has tried to use her heritage to try gain an advantage politically or professionally; I don't really follow stuff like this. However, I assume she's mostly just trolling Trump here, since Trump once shot his mouth off and "offered" $1 million if she would take a blood test to demonstrate her heritage. I imagine few people actually care about her heritage or the $1M.
  #4  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:38 PM
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The spread was given from 6 to 10 generations--that ranges from about 1.5% to 0.09%.
  #5  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:40 PM
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Funny. Seems that up until now it was Trump who couldn't shut up about it.


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  #6  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:48 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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I agree this shouldn't be a political issue going forward.

Yes Warren has a trace of Native American heritage. So does many Americans if you went back that far back in the family tree.

Warren can try to get her 1 million from Trump. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on it. He'll weasel out.
  #7  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:50 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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Funny. Seems that up until now it was Trump who couldn't shut up about it.


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Harvard got that information from someone. It seems likely Warren checked a box on a form. Why? Maybe it was a honest mistake. It was a long time ago.

I've never made any mention of my ancestry at work or school. It's just not notable enough to mention in that context.

Last edited by aceplace57; 10-15-2018 at 12:51 PM.
  #8  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
From what I can see, Elizabeth Warren doesn't make these claims today. It's Donald Trump and his ilk who keep bringing it up. And Trump promised a million-dollar donation to charity if she took a DNA test but is now reneging on that.
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No idea if Warren has tried to use her heritage to try gain an advantage politically or professionally; I don't really follow stuff like this. However, I assume she's mostly just trolling Trump here, since Trump once shot his mouth off and "offered" $1 million if she would take a blood test to demonstrate her heritage. I imagine few people actually care about her heritage or the $1M.
While it's true that Trump won't shut up about this and has blown it way out of proportion, he never actually offered her $1M to take a test. He talked about doing so if they ever debated each other, but that has not come to pass. See the thread in Elections for the actual quote.

If the ancestor actually was 10 generations back, that probably stretches the ability of commercially available test to detect that DNA, which might explain why she went to someone like Bustamante. Or, maybe she just wanted to have an expert in the field certify the results. At any rate, I think she's done what can be done to verify her family lore, and she can claim to have some NA ancestry. Whether she actually claimed to be Native American, as some seem to suggest, is unclear. How she got listed that way at Harvard could be an overly aggressive PR attempt by the department she was in, or maybe she innocently checked some box at some point. I don't think we need to assume anything deceptive on her part.

Last edited by John Mace; 10-15-2018 at 01:03 PM.
  #9  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:11 PM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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But Warren needs to lay off the the claims of native American heritage.
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Harvard got that information from someone. It seems likely Warren checked a box on a form. Why? Maybe it was a honest mistake. It was a long time ago.
Make up your mind. In your first post, your use of the present tense suggests you think she is currently making these claims but in your second post, you acknowledge that she did so a long time ago.
  #10  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:17 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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She was employed at Harvard years ago.

I don't know what Warren will say from now on. She has a trace of Native American blood. That validates her family's oral history. How she proceeds is up to her.

The Verge has an interesting viewpoint.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...ntity-politics
Quote:
Additionally, having some Native American ancestry “proven” from a DNA test, does not automatically mean that someone is or should be, say, a member of the Cherokee tribe. (Thankfully, Warren has never made this claim.) “People think that there’s a DNA test that can prove if somebody is Native American or not. There isn’t,” Tallbear told New Scientist. Tribal affiliation is about more than genetics. It is also about history, culture, and political identity. The same is true of every culture, but these issues are especially sensitive given the history of the Native Americans in the US.
Tallbear noted that it’s popular for white people to claim Native American ancestry, but “tribe” is a federally recognized status, and being Cherokee is about more than DNA analysis. And as DNA tests have become more and more widespread, people are showing up at tribal-enrollment offices with their results. “That worries us in a land where we already feel there’s very little understanding about the history of our tribes, our relationships with colonial powers, and the conditions of our lives now,” she said.

Last edited by aceplace57; 10-15-2018 at 01:20 PM.
  #11  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
Make up your mind. In your first post, your use of the present tense suggests you think she is currently making these claims but in your second post, you acknowledge that she did so a long time ago.
You want consistency from the o.p.? If you can achieve that goal it’ll be a first.

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  #12  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:43 PM
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...
Warren can try to get her 1 million from Trump. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on it. He'll weasel out.
Warren doesn't want a million bucks from Trump. She wants Trump to donate a million bucks to charity, which would probably kill him.
  #13  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:56 PM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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While it's true that Trump won't shut up about this and has blown it way out of proportion, he never actually offered her $1M to take a test. He talked about doing so if they ever debated each other, but that has not come to pass. See the thread in Elections for the actual quote.
It doesn't matter. After he spent so much time mocking her by calling her Pocohantas, I would not have a problem if she persisted in mocking him for refusing to make good on the deal.
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Old 10-15-2018, 02:01 PM
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It doesn't matter. After he spent so much time mocking her by calling her Pocohantas, I would not have a problem if she persisted in mocking him for refusing to make good on the deal.
The "deal" was a hypothetical. It doesn't exist in any real sense, never did. It's a figment of your (and fiveyearlurker's) imagination.
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Old 10-15-2018, 02:01 PM
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The people who keep harping on this are Republicans looking for a reason to taunt Warren or her supporters. Much like Obama's birth certificate (and remember Trump's reaction to that?) this won't solve anything because the problem was never Warren, it's the people desperate to attack her.

I suppose I'm fine with Warren taunting Trump now about his bet while Republicans scramble to say "But.. but.. he never REALLY said it" since those people were fine with giving Warren shit for years.

Last edited by Jophiel; 10-15-2018 at 02:02 PM.
  #16  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:06 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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... Trump now about his bet ...
There was no bet. This isn't a hard fact to grasp. "Trump bet Elizabeth Warren $1M" didn't actually happen.
  #17  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:07 PM
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There was no bet. This isn't a hard fact to grasp. "Trump bet Elizabeth Warren $1M" didn't actually happen.
As I was just saying...
  #18  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:10 PM
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I so much want Warren to throw this in Trump's face. He shouldn't be allowed to get away with that kind of crap. This is what I always said she should do (get tested and only release the results if positive). I just never thought she would do it. That is not to say that I support her for President, but I do admire her for fighting back. (Also, I think she is entitled to consider herself to have Native American ancestry but not to derive any benefit from being culturally native american-ie she can check the box but not use it to get jobs, benefits etc, which there is no evidence of her doing).

Last edited by psychobunny; 10-15-2018 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 10-15-2018, 02:23 PM
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Oh sure, now the "One Drop" rule doesn't apply.
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  #20  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:14 PM
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It doesn't matter. After he spent so much time mocking her by calling her Pocohantas, I would not have a problem if she persisted in mocking him for refusing to make good on the deal.
The "deal" was a hypothetical. It doesn't exist in any real sense, never did. It's a figment of your (and fiveyearlurker's) imagination.
Did Scott Brown, Donald Trump and you pay as much attention to the details of what she said and when she said it as you think we should give to what Trump said about the bet he's now trying to get out of?

I'll save you the trouble; no, you did not.
  #21  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:19 PM
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What difference does it make? She didn't build that.
  #22  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:29 PM
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The "deal" was a hypothetical. It doesn't exist in any real sense, never did. It's a figment of your (and fiveyearlurker's) imagination.
Thanks for acknowledging that what Trump said was pure bullshitting.

Quote:
“Let’s say I’m debating Pocahontas,” he said at a rally. “I promise you I’ll do this: I will take, you know those little kits they sell on television... learn your heritage!”

“And in the middle of the debate, when she proclaims that she is of Indian heritage because her mother said she has high cheek bones, that is her only evidence, her mother said we have high cheek bones,” Trump continued.

“We will take that little kit -- but we have to do it gently. Because we’re in the #MeToo generation, we have to do it gently,” he said. “And we will very gently take that kit, and slowly toss it, hoping it doesn’t injure her arm, and we will say: I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you’re an Indian.”
Now, Trump can weasel out of it by saying that was only valid if it was in the context of a debate. But an honest person would acknowledge that he was making a bet.

Last edited by Colibri; 10-15-2018 at 03:30 PM.
  #23  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:35 PM
Fiveyearlurker Fiveyearlurker is offline
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The "deal" was a hypothetical. It doesn't exist in any real sense, never did. It's a figment of your (and fiveyearlurker's) imagination.
It does exist, because Donald Trump already personally set the precedent for believing that such a "hypothetical deal" was binding when he sued Bill Maher for not making good on his deal to give $5 million to a Trump chosen charity if he proved that he wasn't the offspring of a human woman and an orangutan.

From that, we can conclude that Trump considered such an offer to be binding when he made it, even if the court was prepared to laugh at him because it was clearly offered in jest, which Trump's clearly was not.
  #24  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:47 PM
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I would never refer to myself as a minority or use it to my advantage.
Elizabeth Warren does not claim to be a minority of a member of a NA tribe. Nobody is claiming she is a minority. She only claims that she has NA ancestry, which the DNA test supports. She only took it to shut down Trump's gum-flapping idiocy.

This kind of DNA is not an exact science. Mine only showed my relationship with my father was "paternal, within 1 to 4 generations". Surprisingly few non-Latino Americans have any Native heritage at all, contrary to what they may think.

Anybody with half a brain knew Trump wasn't making a bet for a million dollars. We all know the man is far too broke to assemble that kind of money until his next Helsinki trip.
  #25  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:16 PM
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There was no bet. This isn't a hard fact to grasp. "Trump bet Elizabeth Warren $1M" didn't actually happen.
Nothing to see here!

President Trash gets played yet again. You think he would have learned his lesson when the mob stole his lunch money in Atlantic City and sent him running back to Daddy for more.
  #26  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:29 PM
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Frankly, I am pretty suspicious of such tests. Seems to be mostly arbitrary.
Love to see Trump payup. Please make Warren choose Christine Blasey Fords GoFundMe!
  #27  
Old 10-15-2018, 05:28 PM
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What difference does it make? She didn't build that.
Build what?

(I'm familiar with the phrase "You didn't build that," I just don't understand how that is relevant to this thread.)
  #28  
Old 10-15-2018, 05:57 PM
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Build what?

(I'm familiar with the phrase "You didn't build that," I just don't understand how that is relevant to this thread.)
Those are 2 phrases Republicans took WAY out of context in order to use as weapons. My post was in reponse to:

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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
Did Scott Brown, Donald Trump and you pay as much attention to the details of what she said and when she said it as you think we should give to what Trump said about the bet he's now trying to get out of?

I'll save you the trouble; no, you did not.
So now I've explained it and ruined the whole thing!
  #29  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:03 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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... But an honest person would acknowledge that he was making a bet.
No, an honest person wouldn't pretend that was an actual bet.

ETA: in the words of our friend and colleague:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
... Anybody with half a brain knew Trump wasn't making a bet for a million dollars. ...

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 10-15-2018 at 07:05 PM.
  #30  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:26 PM
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No, an honest person wouldn't pretend that was an actual bet.

ETA: in the words of our friend and colleague:


Again, Donald Trump sued Maher because he took a similar statement as an actual bet indicating that he takes such things as actual bets. Unless you’re insinuating he’s a liar or something I think we should take him at his word.
  #31  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:45 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Again, Donald Trump sued Maher because he took a similar statement as an actual bet indicating that he takes such things as actual bets. Unless you’re insinuating he’s a liar or something I think we should take him at his word.
Was your take on that incident that Maher totally made a bet and should pay up? Was that the judge's take? Assuming the answer to both of those questions is "no", why should that be the interpretation now?
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:01 PM
Fiveyearlurker Fiveyearlurker is offline
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Was your take on that incident that Maher totally made a bet and should pay up? Was that the judge's take? Assuming the answer to both of those questions is "no", why should that be the interpretation now?

Why would my take or a judge's take or your take or anyone's take other than Trump's matter?

Donald Trump's take matters because we know that he believes that such challenges are binding. He showed that when he sued Maher. Since we know that he takes such bets as binding, then we know that when he similarly challenged Warren that he meant it. Again, unless you think his suing Maher was disingenuous, but that couldn't be true, right?

Last edited by Fiveyearlurker; 10-15-2018 at 08:02 PM.
  #33  
Old 10-15-2018, 08:12 PM
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Cherokee Nation responds to Senator Warren’s DNA test

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Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven. Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage
Apparently they've got no use for her either.
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:28 PM
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Cherokee Nation responds to Senator Warren’s DNA test



Apparently they've got no use for her either.
Who gives a crap? She's not claiming any tribal membership so while it's nice that news organizations might actual take the Cherokee Nations phone calls for next week or so, their statement is entirely irrelevant. I'm sure the Germans aren't happy about Trump's dad coming from there but that's too bad.

Last edited by CarnalK; 10-15-2018 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:30 PM
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Why would my take or a judge's take or your take or anyone's take other than Trump's matter?
Let's just say that your willingness to accept Trump's opinion on a matter at face value is entirely situational. I'm making that clear to our dear readers, with a big assist from you.
  #36  
Old 10-15-2018, 08:34 PM
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Cherokee Nation responds to Senator Warren’s DNA test



Apparently they've got no use for her either.
Our despicable president has been calling her Pocahontas. Do you know if they have any thoughts about that?
  #37  
Old 10-15-2018, 08:37 PM
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We're still fighting a 17-year-old war.

Glad to see America is debating the important things.
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:47 PM
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Let's just say that your willingness to accept Trump's opinion on a matter at face value is entirely situational. I'm making that clear to our dear readers, with a big assist from you.


So you’re saying you believe him to be a liar?
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:04 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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So you’re saying you believe him to be a liar?
No, I'm saying I believe you to be a thru-and-thru partisan.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:06 PM
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Our despicable president has been calling her Pocahontas. Do you know if they have any thoughts about that?
He did apologize to the actual Pocahontas ...
  #41  
Old 10-15-2018, 09:07 PM
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Warren and educational institutions claims now that they didn't consider her 'minority' status...just repeating something over and over doesn't make it so.

And 'a long time ago' doesn't really work either. In politics people consider all kinds of stuff that happened a long time ago as we see all the time.

The question isn't whether this is a really important issue for the world or whether Trump is a jerk, the answer to those questions obviously being "no" and "yes" respectively. It's whether this is still a liability for her going beyond safely left leading MA in her political career. It is. Her 'family story' wasn't of unknown Indian heritage up to 10 generations ago.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:07 PM
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Who gives a crap? She's not claiming any tribal membership so while it's nice that news organizations might actual take the Cherokee Nations phone calls for next week or so, their statement is entirely irrelevant
I guess it's like Disney suing preschools for painting Mickey Mouse on the walls. The price of Intellectual Property (or tribal culture and sovereignty) is eternal vigilance.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:36 PM
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No, an honest person wouldn't pretend that was an actual bet.
We clearly have different ideas about what it means to be an honest person. As does Trump (though I'm sure the entire concept is foreign to him).
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:11 PM
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No, I'm saying I believe you to be a thru-and-thru partisan.


Obama is as the first Democrat I ever voted for. My partisanship, if it can be called that, is apparently quite malleable.
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:47 PM
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The "deal" was a hypothetical. It doesn't exist in any real sense, never did. It's a figment of your (and fiveyearlurker's) imagination.
Unbelievable.
  #46  
Old 10-15-2018, 10:52 PM
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There was no bet. This isn't a hard fact to grasp. "Trump bet Elizabeth Warren $1M" didn't actually happen.
Well, not a bet but a offer:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.4f841f2f8962

I’m going to get one of those little [DNA testing] kits and in the middle of the debate, when she proclaims she’s of Indian heritage … ‚” Trump said. “And we will say, ‘I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you’re an Indian.’“And let’s see what she does,” Trump continued. “I have a feeling she will say no, but we’ll hold that for the debates. Do me a favor. Keep it within this room?”"

So, she said yes, and she is part indian, and now he is weaseling.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:11 PM
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Well, not a bet but a offer:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.4f841f2f8962

I’m going to get one of those little [DNA testing] kits and in the middle of the debate, when she proclaims she’s of Indian heritage … ‚” Trump said. “And we will say, ‘I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you’re an Indian.’“And let’s see what she does,” Trump continued. “I have a feeling she will say no, but we’ll hold that for the debates. Do me a favor. Keep it within this room?”"

So, she said yes, and she is part indian, and now he is weaseling.
Which debate between them was the one when she claimed Indian heritage?
  #48  
Old 10-16-2018, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Who gives a crap? She's not claiming any tribal membership so while it's nice that news organizations might actual take the Cherokee Nations phone calls for next week or so, their statement is entirely irrelevant. I'm sure the Germans aren't happy about Trump's dad coming from there but that's too bad.
They don't accept her so of course their opinion is irrelvant.
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Our despicable president has been calling her Pocahontas. Do you know if they have any thoughts about that?
I doubt they would considering that Pocahontas was Powhatan.
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  #49  
Old 10-16-2018, 12:58 AM
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Just imagine a person with a black ancestor, 8 generations ago claiming black heritage.
"Claiming"? Depending partly on how they happen to look, lots of Americans would be offended if that person dared not delineate their African-American ancestry any time ancestry were mentioned!
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Last edited by Nava; 10-16-2018 at 12:58 AM.
  #50  
Old 10-16-2018, 12:58 AM
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They don't accept her so of course their opinion is irrelvant.
It's irrelevant in that it has nothing to do with whether she's X percent Native American or not. If she wanted to start claiming tribal benefits or start wearing tribal religious garb, then they'd have a legitimate complaint. Simply saying "My DNA shows native ancestry however many generations ago" isn't offensive, it's just stating a basic fact.
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