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Old 10-18-2018, 11:35 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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The Looming Dog Shortage

I came across this topic. It seems that spay and neuter programs have done so well that the number of shelter dogs has gone way down and since they clammped down on puppy mills, its harder to finds new dogs.

Here is the story.


It basically says the USA needs about 8 million new dogs per year.


I will say I have seen fewer ads for people wanting to give away free puppies and many sought after breeds like bulldogs are quite expensive.


What do you all think?
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:51 PM
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I think the pound is full every time I visit.
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:07 AM
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I think the pound is full every time I visit.
Exactly, there are plenty of dogs available for adoption.
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:08 AM
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Here is the solution.
https://www.newsflare.com/video/2461...ing-for-dinner
I can't think of any problem to which this is not a good solution.
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:09 AM
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That's not true here in South Arkansas. Occasionally the shelter I visit has taken truck loads of dogs to the north. I assume the shelters there are lacking pups and are willing to take some from here. That's a good thing. IMO.
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:36 AM
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Here is the solution.
https://www.newsflare.com/video/2461...ing-for-dinner
I can't think of any problem to which this is not a good solution.
Agree. Shut the internet down.
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:04 AM
ITR champion ITR champion is online now
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When my wife and I were shopping for a dog, the local shelter had mostly just pit bulls. We were lucky in that a cocker spaniel/chihuahua mix showed up right on the day that we were looking and we snatched her up right away. But mostly it seems there were not many desirable dogs available in the entire city, especially among the smaller breeds.
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by beowulff View Post
I think the pound is full every time I visit.
Well, I can't imagine, then, why Today's Veterinary Business magazine would be worried that the country doesn't have enough dogs.
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Old 10-19-2018, 07:23 AM
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There's an imbalance, yes. Some places have fewer dogs to pick from, or a smaller breed selection, and all this is cultural.

Places that are mainly white, educated, middle-class, are where most people spay/neuter or don't breed their dogs. There has also been a huge shift in the way the general public views registered purebred dogs, which since the Victorian era have had a lot of cachet (the purebred dog industry had a lot to do with its own decline). Now, the cool thing to do is "rescue'. If that is your aim, you are going to be dependent on the stream of puppies produced by the non-middle-class and non-educated and non-white. Mostly those are going to be pit bull types, random mutts, and rather misshapen toy breeds.

In poor areas dogs and puppies are dumped out of cars on deserted roads all the time. ALL the time.

In the middle class, there is such a desire to feel virtuous about "saving a life" that street dogs are now imported from Mexico among other places, for adoption in the US. This is causing concern because these dogs are bringing in interesting parasites and diseases not normally seen here.

Nothing simple about the dog thing.

Last edited by Ulfreida; 10-19-2018 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:10 AM
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When my wife and I were shopping for a dog, the local shelter had mostly just pit bulls. We were lucky in that a cocker spaniel/chihuahua mix showed up right on the day that we were looking and we snatched her up right away. But mostly it seems there were not many desirable dogs available in the entire city, especially among the smaller breeds.
Pibbles are perfectly desirable dogs.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:40 AM
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From the article:
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Conduct a national survey of shelters. This was complex, to say the least, but MSU succeeded and produced the following data relied upon by The Washington Post:

5,532,904 dogs entered shelters in 2015.
2,628,112 dogs were adopted out by shelters in 2015.
776,970 dogs were euthanized by shelters in 2015 and about the same number were transferred by shelters to other shelters or rescues.

These numbers demonstrate how much progress has been made in reducing annual euthanasia rates from over 12 million to fewer than 800,000. But they also highlight that shelters may be expected to provide only 2.6 million of the annual 8.1 million dogs needed to meet U.S. demand.
Does it? It would seem to me that there's an additional 777,000 dogs being euthanized and another 777,000 being shuffled out of the shelters to make room. If my public school math isn't failing me, that's over 1.5 million dogs extra. Granted, not all of those dogs are going to be adoptable for various reasons but the answer really doesn't seem to be "we reached peak adoption capacity at 2.6 million"

Anyway, they're dogs. If we need more dogs, they'll produce more dogs. That's what dogs do.

Last edited by Jophiel; 10-19-2018 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:47 AM
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It's not really a problem because very few people actually NEED a dog and there are way more than enough for those that do. A dog is a luxury item. Saying that there isn't enough water in Phoenix, that's a problem. Saying that there aren't enough Teslas to go around is not, it's an inconvenience for a few people. So, saying that there aren't enough dogs is an inconvenience, not a problem. It's one that will resolve itself. If there's a scarcity, then prices will rise and more people will breed dogs. You'll end up paying more for Spot, but if the price is high enough, you'll simply forego getting Spot and get a cat instead or go without a pet. Problem solved.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
It basically says the USA needs about 8 million new dogs per year.

What do you all think?
We need about 8 million new dogs? Actually need them?

I rescued a dog and I really like him, but I don't NEED him.

I am tempted to say I'd love to see the price of dogs go to $50 a pound, because maybe people would think twice about adopting such a great animal. But then it would only incentivize production. Not sure whether it's preferable for the supply to come out of a puppy mill or off the streets.

Let's keep spaying and neutering, increase regulations on puppy mills, and have more aggressive enforcement against dogfighting. That's my best idea.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:02 AM
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The North Little Rock shelter is begging people to take dogs so they won't have to euthanize them.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:25 AM
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Jesus, there are plenty of dogs available if you just look around. Try adopting a greyhound, for God's sake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhound_adoption
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:36 AM
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HERE is a link to our local shelter and where we got our cat.
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:38 AM
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Jesus, there are plenty of dogs available if you just look around. Try adopting a greyhound, for God's sake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhound_adoption
But what if I dont WANT a greyhound or any dog at the shelter? What if say I want a corgi? Why cant I buy one from a breeder?
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:41 AM
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But what if I dont WANT a greyhound or any dog at the shelter? What if say I want a corgi? Why cant I buy one from a breeder?
Who says you can't? You'll just be more at the mercy of supply and demand.
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:53 AM
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You can buy a Corgi from a breeder. Just investigate the breeder. Ask for references and call them. I bought my Yorkie from a 'trusted' local-ish breeder. I obviously got a Yorkie. She is small, cute with long flowing locks. I asked for a pet, not a show dog. I love this dog, she's going on 5yo. But, a big but, she's dumb as a doorknob. Seriously impaired. At first she was just a sweet baby. It took a solid 2 years to potty train. I still watch her like a hawk. You get what you pay for. Buyer beware.

Last edited by Beckdawrek; 10-19-2018 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:14 PM
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But what if I dont WANT a greyhound or any dog at the shelter? What if say I want a corgi? Why cant I buy one from a breeder?
The reason that many of these puppy mills are being shut down is not because we have too many dogs, and we need to limit the supply, but that many of these places were engaging ins some very abusive practices.

I work with a puppy mill rescue group, and we get mothers who are only 5 or 6 years old, but seem like teenagers in their health, having had nearly a dozen litters.

Their new owners often talk about how the reacted when they saw the sky for the first time.

Even if you don't care about the conditions and abuse, you should still care that the dog you get from a puppy mill is likely to be inbred and have many health issues and a poor quality of life. i see many dogs with twisted limbs and wonky legs, making them being able to get around problematic. We have had a few puppies come in that have had to had their legs broken and reset by veterinarians, due to their deformities from birth. We even have one goldendoodle that has no sockets in his hips. He can barely get around, and it seems as though he is often in pain from simply standing.

How much did you want that Corgi?
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:29 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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It sounds like he said he wanted to buy one from a breeder, not a puppy mill. I have extended family that have been big in the crazy "dog show" world since the 1930s, while that's not my game I'm at least familiar with it. If you do your research it's almost trivially easy to sort responsible breeders apart from puppy mills.

Dog breeding isn't inherently virtuous, it's basically a human vanity project (which I don't think is intrinsically bad, but it's not inherently good, either), we've left a lot of lines of dogs worse off health wise than they would have been if not deliberately bred in that direction. That being said, the typical shelter dog at least in the areas I've lived most of my life have changed a lot. When I was a kid the typical shelter dog was called a "Virginia Brown Dog", which was a vague hound like mutt that "you knew when you saw it" because it was the default "look" for strays in the 60s/70s. These dogs generally were stereotyped as being friendly and good pets, ranged in size from 45-75 lb which is a good size range for a "typical family dog."

Thing is some people live in small apartments and would really benefit more from small toy breeds (and some like the chihuahua are very hearty specimens of canis lupus familiaris in terms of longevity.) Some people would benefit more from a lower energy dog. I have a friend who is enthralled with Australian shepherds. She has two. She should have zero. These are extremely high energy dogs, bred to do hard work and run far and hard all day long. They simply don't do well as "house dogs" with a moderate yard to play on and brief walks (which is all my friend can offer.)

For whatever reason the "Virginia Brown Dog" appears to have gone extinct at local shelters, I'd say easily 90-95% of all dogs in the shelter are "bully breeds." I'm not predisposed to disliking bully breeds, my family owned many Boxers (a breed oft-confused for the pit bull terrier), and know they can be good family pets. But they just aren't for everyone, and when the shelters basically only seem to have this type of dog now it suggests there isn't really a great solution. People keep overbreeding them for the reasons they do, and then getting rid of them.
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:39 PM
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Absolute crap.
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:53 PM
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It is no suprise that there is a dwindling supply of looming dogs, given how few people have a loom any more.
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:40 PM
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It sounds like he said he wanted to buy one from a breeder, not a puppy mill. I have extended family that have been big in the crazy "dog show" world since the 1930s, while that's not my game I'm at least familiar with it. If you do your research it's almost trivially easy to sort responsible breeders apart from puppy mills.
It may be trivially easy to someone with your background and knowing what to look for, but as many of these places as there are, and the business that they get, it seems that many either aren't able to tell, or don't care.

I have clients that rave about how many testimonials the breeder that they are going to has, how great they are, how the breeder cares so much that they want to research prospective owners before giving up any of their puppies.

Then they get the dog, and it is sick and deformed. Then I get to clean up the mother, and it is completely unsocialized, damaged and worn out.
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:44 PM
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Jesus, there are plenty of dogs available if you just look around. Try adopting a greyhound, for God's sake.
Interestingly enough even that should be slowly declining in sync with the slow, sputtering demise of the dog racing industry. Florida is the last great stronghold and it is propped up there by the unintended consequences of a poorly thought out law.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:17 PM
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You can buy a Corgi from a breeder. Just investigate the breeder. Ask for references and call them. I bought my Yorkie from a 'trusted' local-ish breeder. I obviously got a Yorkie. She is small, cute with long flowing locks. I asked for a pet, not a show dog. I love this dog, she's going on 5yo. But, a big but, she's dumb as a doorknob. Seriously impaired. At first she was just a sweet baby. It took a solid 2 years to potty train. I still watch her like a hawk. You get what you pay for. Buyer beware.
Except that if you did your research you'd know that Yorkies as a breed are notoriously hard to train and hard to housebreak (like many toy breeds), so don't blame the breeder for producing a typical Yorkie. They did their job just fine.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:18 PM
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Pibbles are perfectly desirable dogs.
Fortunately when we recently went to the shelter where we got our late dog* almost all the dogs on offer were still cute and friendly 'pit bulls'. Great from the perspective of adopting, but still worrisome from the perspective of all those dogs getting happy homes. Happily when we went to pick up the one my daughter had chosen (to be her dog, my grand dog) the population had thinned out noticeably, they'd just adopted out a bunch of dogs. But no persistent shortage here yet.

*a Dogo Argentino mix but we were fine if people called her 'pit bull', she was a truly amazing dog no matter what you called her.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:19 PM
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It may be trivially easy to someone with your background and knowing what to look for, but as many of these places as there are, and the business that they get, it seems that many either aren't able to tell, or don't care.

I have clients that rave about how many testimonials the breeder that they are going to has, how great they are, how the breeder cares so much that they want to research prospective owners before giving up any of their puppies.

Then they get the dog, and it is sick and deformed. Then I get to clean up the mother, and it is completely unsocialized, damaged and worn out.
Yeah, this. If you are in that world, it seems so incredibly obvious, but most people are not. The uninformed things people have told me about dogs over the years would fill an airplane hangar.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:23 PM
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Interestingly enough even that should be slowly declining in sync with the slow, sputtering demise of the dog racing industry. Florida is the last great stronghold and it is propped up there by the unintended consequences of a poorly thought out law.


I'm in Florida, thanks for the link.

Big surprise, Disney helps keep dog racing legal. I would have put my money on the mafia, but, it's hard to tell big business from organized crime these days.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:24 PM
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Just as a simple FYI -- if you want a Registered Purebred Whatever, the place to look FIRST is the local AKC-affiliated club for that breed. Like if you were in the SF Bay Area and wanted a Pembroke Welsh Corgi, you would contact the Golden Gate Pembroke Welsh Corgi Club. The breeders who are members of that club are show breeders hence they take excellent care of their animals, unlike puppy millers.

The club will have a list of member breeders and often a list of who has available puppies as well.

That's if that's what you want to do, of course.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:30 PM
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Let's say that 50% of people who want a dog shouldn't have a dog.

Let's also say that that people who shouldn't have a dog are 4 times as likely to give up purchasing one if the price becomes exorbitant, while as the people who should have a dog are no less likely to purchase one at those prices.

In that case, then having half as many dogs as there is demand is good.

While those numbers are just random, I suspect that reality goes something along those lines, so I would not care about the 8 million number. When shelters are few and far between and you can only ever purchase a dog from a reputable breeder, and there are lines miles long for that, then we might worry if there are enough dogs in the country.
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:01 PM
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here in NC shelters are about 90% pit bulls . A friend told me some get adopted .
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:23 PM
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I don't think it takes a deep knowledge of dog breeding to google about how to find a responsible one. Most AKC breed specific sites keep a list, and it's pretty rare for the breeders referred to on the official AKC breed sites to be bad. Plus, these pups are going to be $700-1000+, and are a long term commitment. Go visit the breeder and inspect their operation, how they keep their dogs etc. A responsible breeder will have zero issue with you doing this, and a shady one won't allow it--which is one of the biggest signs by itself that something isn't right.
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:24 PM
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I'm not sure where this dog shortage is. Certainly not in my area. The shelters around here are always 100% full with many volunteers fostering additional dogs. They regularly have adoption drives where they wave fees so they can free up some space.

Although, one issue with the shelters is they are no-kill, which means the less-adoptable dogs hang around a long time. The easily-adoptable dogs get snagged quickly, so they are left with the dogs that are going to be tougher to adopt. They may have health issues, be older, be bigger, have behavior problems, less desirable breeds, etc. Some of the dogs are in the shelter for hundreds of days. Maybe the article really means there are not enough desirable dogs to adopt (e.g. young, cute, friendly, etc.).
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:37 PM
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Plenty of dogs in the shelters in the Sacramento area. We got 2 of them a couple years ago.

Lots of pit bulls. Beautiful animals. Give one a chance!
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:04 PM
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Plenty of dogs in the shelters in the Sacramento area. We got 2 of them a couple years ago.

Lots of pit bulls. Beautiful animals. Give one a chance!
I adopted a stray pit bull. He would hide under the porch when anyone came by.
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:33 PM
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Price of puppies around here is ~$1K. Which is a long way up from "free".

Dunno what you can get from a pound, but it's obviously not filling the demand for puppies.

Cats are still cheap....
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:40 PM
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The premise of the article is silly. Availability of dogs is a function of supply and demand. If the demand is there, the dogs will be there. QED.

The article has a section heading reading "Mississippi State Mathematics". I am resisting the temptation to make the obvious joke.
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:42 PM
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Just as a simple FYI -- if you want a Registered Purebred Whatever, the place to look FIRST is the local AKC-affiliated club for that breed. Like if you were in the SF Bay Area and wanted a Pembroke Welsh Corgi, you would contact the Golden Gate Pembroke Welsh Corgi Club. The breeders who are members of that club are show breeders hence they take excellent care of their animals, unlike puppy millers.

The club will have a list of member breeders and often a list of who has available puppies as well.

That's if that's what you want to do, of course.
This is good advice. I would add - the AKC club will probably also have connections to the breed specific rescue club. They're not just puppies. Reputable breeders will also help with dogs they've bred who need to be rehomed.

If you're looking to rescue a pet, especially if you're open to an older dog, the official Corgi club probably knows someone who has a spare dog who needs a home. There will still be fees involved, but every show breeder ends up with more pet quality dogs than show dogs, and they'll need to find homes for them.

Here, for example, is the Rescue page for the AKC Pembroke Welsh Corgi Club.

http://pwcca.org/about-pembrokes/pwc-rescue-network
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Old 10-19-2018, 06:35 PM
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The premise of the article is silly. Availability of dogs is a function of supply and demand. If the demand is there, the dogs will be there. QED.
Yeah. Our Guide Dog breeder produced 200 descendants in 3 generations, and she didn't have a lot of litters.
Anyhow, from what I see as I walk around the Upper East Side, all the dogs have come to New York. They must want to break into show business or something.
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Old 10-19-2018, 07:25 PM
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I can believe the OP; people here are importing dogs from overseas now for adoption.

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The premise of the article is silly. Availability of dogs is a function of supply and demand
This is true, but a possible outcome is that people of limited means will not be able to afford dogs. If puppy mills are being cracked down upon, reputable breeders will dominate the market, and they already charge a pretty hefty sum.
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:26 PM
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This is true, but a possible outcome is that people of limited means will not be able to afford dogs.
Boy dog + Girl dog = Extra Dogs

If there's ever some actual dog shortage, people will just be less inclined to spay or neuter their dogs since the threat of homeless feral dogs wandering the streets isn't there. We're not talking about pandas here; just let the dogs be dogs and you'll have all the extra dogs you could want.

I suppose people of limited means maybe won't get purebred whatevers, but that's already largely the case unless their limited means still allows for hundreds or thousands of dollars in dog purchasing funds.
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Old 10-20-2018, 12:14 AM
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Except that if you did your research you'd know that Yorkies as a breed are notoriously hard to train and hard to housebreak (like many toy breeds), so don't blame the breeder for producing a typical Yorkie. They did their job just fine.
Oh, I totally agree with you. I have had many dogs. Pure bred and mutt. I have never had one as dumb as this dog though. I don't blame the breeder at all. I got what I paid for. A pet quality Yorkie. I love her with her disability, anyway. As I said, the buyer beware. Do your homework before you buy or adopt.
And the pitbull thing, it is out of control how many pitts are on the street and in shelters. I don't think I understand why. They are obviously not for everyone. I have had terriers and a small one is a challenge. I can't imagine a powerful one. I do have sympathy for them. At our shelter, some are sweet, some not so much. They never get a forever home. It's just sad, really.
  #44  
Old 10-20-2018, 12:51 AM
elfkin477 elfkin477 is offline
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There definitely aren't a lot of locally born dogs or cats in shelters in the upper northeast. A great many dogs and cats you can get in NH and ME are shipped up here from Florida or Arkansas for a $450 fee for dogs and $200 for cats.
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  #45  
Old 10-20-2018, 12:55 AM
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wolfpup wolfpup is offline
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Originally Posted by beowulff View Post
I think the pound is full every time I visit.
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Originally Posted by Telemark View Post
Exactly, there are plenty of dogs available for adoption.
Not here. I've occasionally browsed the shelter listings and there tend to be very few dogs and they go quickly. The shelters seem to be overflowing with cats, though.
  #46  
Old 10-20-2018, 02:25 AM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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Originally Posted by Beckdawrek View Post
That's not true here in South Arkansas. Occasionally the shelter I visit has taken truck loads of dogs to the north. I assume the shelters there are lacking pups and are willing to take some from here. That's a good thing. IMO.
Yep, that's where Vaya came from, as part of an entire litter, though there was a significant scare when one of the dogs on the truck tested positive for parvo. We're pretty good at homing dogs around here, insomuch as many of the shelters outside of the Twin Cities are almost entirely foster-driven. That said, shelters are still running at 50%+ capacity. Knowing it would be lower if limited to only local dogs makes my soul smile.
  #47  
Old 10-20-2018, 02:29 AM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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I can believe the OP; people here are importing dogs from overseas now for adoption.


This is true, but a possible outcome is that people of limited means will not be able to afford dogs. If puppy mills are being cracked down upon, reputable breeders will dominate the market, and they already charge a pretty hefty sum.
There are plenty of mutts available, and I can't imagine a situation where that would change. Puppy mills were producing purebreds too fast to catch any health issues, in inhumane conditions. I don't see a downside to reputable breeders for purebreds - there's a standard for a reason, and ANY breeder worth a damn cares for that standard and the long-term health and safety of their puppies far more than the money they make.
  #48  
Old 10-20-2018, 09:33 AM
Melbourne Melbourne is offline
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There are plenty of mutts available, and I can't imagine a situation where that would change. .
Around here, compulsory registration costs are much higher, older dogs are always provided spayed/desexed, and very young puppies may be supplied with 'free' (cost included) desexing as part of the price. Purebreeds are provided in two classes: breeding (high price), and non-breeding (the others).

Last edited by Melbourne; 10-20-2018 at 09:34 AM.
  #49  
Old 10-20-2018, 09:51 AM
Textual Innuendo Textual Innuendo is offline
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This is true, but a possible outcome is that people of limited means will not be able to afford dogs.
This is a good thing - I'm totally behind Sage Rat's analysis.

A lot of people shouldn't have dogs that do. Taking care of dogs right costs money, up to and including being able to come up with hundreds to thousands of dollars for unexpected vet visits, and vet prices just keep going up.

People of limited means shouldn't be getting dogs, if dog welfare is part of the equation we're considering.
  #50  
Old 10-20-2018, 10:07 AM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
Plenty of dogs in the shelters in the Sacramento area. We got 2 of them a couple years ago.

Lots of pit bulls. Beautiful animals. Give one a chance!
Ours just turned seven. First (and so far only) dog I ever had. Got him when he was 10 months old from the pound. $65 vaccinations, neutering, chip included. Love him to death.

Around here, the pounds are full, but, like in other places, they are predominantly pits and pit mixes. I volunteered at the city pound for about a year, and I would say it's 85% breeds identified as that. On the adoption floor, they would usually sit for one to three months before getting adopted/fostered/rescued by a group. The lapdogs would last less than a week before getting snapped up. The euthanasia rates have gone down tremendously because of fostering groups. Twenty years ago, kill rates were about 90% at the shelter--now they're down to about 10%.

But, yeah, no lack of dogs around here.

Last edited by pulykamell; 10-20-2018 at 10:07 AM.
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