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Old 10-22-2018, 08:25 AM
Dinsdale Dinsdale is offline
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Who is organizing/supporting the "caravan"?

It seems some 5000 Guatemalans have crossed into Mexico, and intend on traveling to the US. Is anyone organizing or supporting this effort? Churches? Aid groups? I'm just thinking about bathrooms, food, and medical support for 5000 poor people.

I posted this in GD, because I anticipated some debate as to immigration/asylum, or the US's response might result. But I was mainly interested in any information people might have as to who organized or is supporting this apparent coordinated effort. Or did it simply occur organically, with the participants fending for themselves as they progress?
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Old 10-22-2018, 08:37 AM
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Not saying you're doing this but why should there be an assumption of outside coordination? Couldn't it simply be that these people found themselves in an untenable situation, heard others were leaving, and decided that was the best option?
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:07 AM
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I understand the question. I suppose my title should have been Who - if anyone - is organizing/supporting the "caravan."

I see a couple of different issues. First, as you suggest, did 5000 people simply decide at the same time to leave? Or did a smaller group decide, and numbers just grew? I suppose that is possible, though I have no personal experience with groups just spontaneously forming like that. It seems as tho even protest marches and letter writing campaigns have SOME amount of organization - whether by interest groups, a small core of people, etc.

But the second issue concerns support during the effort itself. Yes, I suppose there might be no support/organization. The participants could simply be supporting themselves "off the land", and/or could be depending upon kindness of people/entities they encounter. My frame of reference is US parades/runs/festivals/etc. Porta-potties, food and aid stations, traffic/crowd control. I realize there is nothing of such scale for this caravan, but I'm wondering what - if any - coordination is taking place.
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:19 AM
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Glad you started this thread. I was thinking of doing so, myself. Not about who started it, but the logistics of keeping these people alive as they trek across Mexico. My understanding is that it's 7,000 (not 5,000) and many of them are small children. How do they manage to get food, water, etc every single day as they walk over 1,000 miles? I saw on the news last night how some folks were helping them with food and water, but it would seem to be a monumental task to rely on chance charity as opposed to some organized effort to keep people from dying or at least halting due to exhaustion.

I understand a certain logic behind the caravan idea since migrating alone or in small groups puts people in significant danger from gangs and other violent people, but the large group has its own challenges with logistics.
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:29 AM
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According to this article published yesterday, the crowd is receiving donations of food and clothing from Mexicans they pass by, and those that have been officially processed by Mexican authorities are bused to a camp to receive food, and some aid from the Red Cross.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-through-river
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:35 AM
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Probably could have posted this in the Elections thread, where I see many/most of the folk are Honduran.

And an NPR article cited there says organized crime is largely responsible for these caravans, as they prey on/profit from them. Makes some sense to me.
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Dinsdale View Post
Probably could have posted this in the Elections thread, where I see many/most of the folk are Honduran.
Someone already beat you to it there.

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And an NPR article cited there says organized crime is largely responsible for these caravans, as they prey on/profit from them. Makes some sense to me.
Just to be clear, they prey on smaller groups. There is relative safety in a group that numbers in the thousands. Not only do you have your fellow trekkers to rely on, but the whole operation is being filmed and monitored by the authorities. Not that there is no danger of being the victim of violence, but just less danger.
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:52 AM
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Not saying you're doing this but why should there be an assumption of outside coordination? Couldn't it simply be that these people found themselves in an untenable situation, heard others were leaving, and decided that was the best option?

This.

Back in mid-40, when the Germans were absolutely positively going to be stopped by the Army somewhere around Belgium because they couldn't pass the Maginot Line and whhoooops didn't anticipate them going through the Ardennes instead, this is kinda bad ; thousands upon thousands of French, Belgian, Dutch and Luxemburger people from immediately picked up sticks and started moving south on foot, with no plan whatsoever beyond "not being here when Ze Germans arrive". Plenty died on the roads, be it of dehydration & hunger, or being bombed or strafed by airplanes and German troops because many deserters & escaped troops tried to hide in the chaos.


Frightened, beleaguered, desperate people do desperate things. It's a thing that happens.
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:57 AM
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Just to be clear, they prey on smaller groups. There is relative safety in a group that numbers in the thousands. ...
I've never been a Mexican criminal mastermind myself, but in my ignorance it made some sense that if I saw profit to be made from preying on migrants, it might be worth my while to send "advance men" to encourage folk to put themselves where it would be convenient for me to prey on them.

And from what little I hear/read, it seems as tho some portion of the group are regularly falling out and returning south, which might remove them from the group's numerical security.
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:36 AM
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I've never been a Mexican criminal mastermind myself, but in my ignorance it made some sense that if I saw profit to be made from preying on migrants, it might be worth my while to send "advance men" to encourage folk to put themselves where it would be convenient for me to prey on them. .
Why would desperate refugees with practically no possessions be lucrative prey?
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:46 AM
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Why would desperate refugees with practically no possessions be lucrative prey?
I only have WAGs, no hard facts. But here are my WAGs:

1) The refugees have their life's savings with them. They're poor but not penniless.

2) Human trafficking.
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Old 10-22-2018, 11:31 AM
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I only have WAGs, no hard facts. But here are my WAGs:

1) The refugees have their life's savings with them. They're poor but not penniless.

2) Human trafficking.
My WAG/impression as well.

Had heard for some time of "coyotes" who would charge migrants to assist them crossing into the US, often abandoning them along the way. If there's a steady stream of vulnerable people to prey on, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that organized crime got involved.
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Old 10-22-2018, 12:08 PM
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Speaking of organized crime, Trump and his all thumb administration on this issue, will get the situation worse if they do manage to eliminate the aid going to El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala as he has promised.

Organized crime will get an early Christmas gift because removing that aid will lead to more unrest and more money for their crime groups; and then more immigrants with nothing left to lose will do more treks like the one in the OP.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 10-22-2018 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 10-22-2018, 12:14 PM
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I only have WAGs, no hard facts. But here are my WAGs:

1) The refugees have their life's savings with them. They're poor but not penniless.

2) Human trafficking.
2b) Sex/Rape. A lot of the women who arrive pregnant or with newborns don't know the father except in the Biblical sense.
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Last edited by Nava; 10-22-2018 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 10-22-2018, 01:33 PM
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I have read that the Mexicans are doing what they can to help the caravan. Their reason is "Because they are humans".

If they reach the border, and Trump strong arms them, it will translate to a Republican win in November.

Last edited by harmonicamoon; 10-22-2018 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 10-22-2018, 02:58 PM
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Why would desperate refugees with practically no possessions be lucrative prey?
Sometimes they have relatives in the U.S. who can be extorted.
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Old 10-22-2018, 03:13 PM
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My question is why are the proudly flying the Guatemalan and Honduran flags?

I mean 1. if they are so proud of their country why not stay and try and improve it and 2. if I was trying to impress a country I was hoping to get asylum in, why not fly American flags?
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Old 10-22-2018, 03:14 PM
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Old 10-22-2018, 03:15 PM
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My question is why are the proudly flying the Guatemalan and Honduran flags?

I mean 1. if they are so proud of their country why not stay and try and improve it and 2. if I was trying to impress a country I was hoping to get asylum in, why not fly American flags?
If they did, would that change your mind about letting them in?
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Old 10-22-2018, 03:27 PM
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My question is why are the proudly flying the Guatemalan and Honduran flags?
Hey, these days, while I'm still proud to be an American, I'm not terribly thrilled with a lot of the things that are happening in my country (and that my government is doing), either.
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Old 10-22-2018, 03:40 PM
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My question is why are the proudly flying the Guatemalan and Honduran flags?

I mean 1. if they are so proud of their country why not stay and try and improve it and 2. if I was trying to impress a country I was hoping to get asylum in, why not fly American flags?
We can always rely on you to ask the really penetrating questions.
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Old 10-22-2018, 04:18 PM
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My question is why are the proudly flying the Guatemalan and Honduran flags?

I mean 1. if they are so proud of their country why not stay and try and improve it and 2. if I was trying to impress a country I was hoping to get asylum in, why not fly American flags?
I saw a St. Patrick's Day parade once where people were flying Irish flags. If they're so proud of Ireland, why didn't they stay there? Why aren't they trying to impress our country?
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Old 10-22-2018, 04:20 PM
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My question is why are the proudly flying the Guatemalan and Honduran flags?

I mean 1. if they are so proud of their country why not stay and try and improve it and 2. if I was trying to impress a country I was hoping to get asylum in, why not fly American flags?
For the most part, the caravan is millenials. They're flying those flags ironically.
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Old 10-22-2018, 04:21 PM
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We can always rely on you to ask the really penetrating questions.
And you for not having a real answer.

Typical leftist.
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Old 10-22-2018, 04:22 PM
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All those people displaying Confederate flags-Where should they go back to?
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Old 10-22-2018, 04:22 PM
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Hey, these days, while I'm still proud to be an American, I'm not terribly thrilled with a lot of the things that are happening in my country (and that my government is doing), either.
Never has been perfect.

But how do you think another country like say Canada, would approve of 5,000 Americans waving American flags, marching to their border with the intent of demanding asylum?
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Old 10-22-2018, 04:26 PM
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Never has been perfect.

But how do you think another country like say Canada, would approve of 5,000 Americans waving American flags, marching to their border with the intent of demanding asylum?
How about answering the question I asked in post #19?
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Old 10-22-2018, 04:37 PM
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But how do you think another country like say Canada, would approve of 5,000 Americans waving American flags, marching to their border with the intent of demanding asylum?
I know you weren't addressing this question to me, but is that really relevant? We can speculate on Canada's reaction to a hypothetical scenario, but so what?

This is an issue of right or wrong.

You're delusional if you think all of those Hondurans are trying to get here in order to "get free stuff" or "vote for Democrats".

I mean, seriously, have you ever met an illegal immigrant? I have worked with them, met them, been friends with them. They are just regular people who want to live, work, and provide for their families without crippling fear, just like you.
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Old 10-22-2018, 04:37 PM
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My WAG is these people have heard a wall is going up and want to get to the border before that happens. You know that is a very long way to walk. I can't see many people actually finishing the trek. It reminds of the VietNamese boat people. Or the run on Greece. There is really little hope they will succeed. IMO
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Old 10-22-2018, 05:06 PM
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My understanding is that it's 7,000 (not 5,000)
7200 and growing according to the UN.

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Old 10-22-2018, 05:08 PM
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Never has been perfect.

But how do you think another country like say Canada, would approve of 5,000 Americans waving American flags, marching to their border with the intent of demanding asylum?
LOL, I would love to see Trudeau's face when he heard that.
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Old 10-22-2018, 05:13 PM
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If they did, would that change your mind about letting them in?
Spray painting swastikas on the US flag and then burning them is certainly not going to help their cause, now will it?
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Old 10-22-2018, 05:15 PM
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There are too many personal shots occurring in this thread. Any more will earn warnings.

Rein it in people.
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Old 10-22-2018, 05:17 PM
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Spray painting swastikas on the US flag and then burning them is certainly not going to help their cause, now will it?
NM-saw warning.
This neither answers the question, nor does it clarify it in any way.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 10-22-2018 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 10-22-2018, 05:48 PM
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People do not seem to be seeing the alarming fact that this caravan is a GIFT TO THE REPUBLICANS (in addition to being a human catastrophe). It is like a moving image of how Repub. supporters see Latin Americans: a growing horde clamoring to get in, lest we let the Democrats get in office. Close the gates (they'll say)!

Somehow it always seems like the Republicans have the benefit of an October surprise before an election —either up their own sleeves or by "luck." I wouldn't be shocked if the horde was organized by Trump himself or his Russian partners.

Of course I don't mean to diminish the horror of their plight; rather, I am referring to the political implications.
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Old 10-22-2018, 05:59 PM
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People do not seem to be seeing the alarming fact that this caravan is a GIFT TO THE REPUBLICANS
I see that fact. But what’s to be done? Tell the Democrats to get on the other side of this issue, because the alternative sets up stuff like this as gifts to the Republicans? So long as Democrats aren’t going to nullify this talking point by simply agreeing with the GOP, we should see this fact and then — what?
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:03 PM
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Well Obama was known to put his foot down at times and say NO to immigrants also so I dont see why the current democrats cannot do the same.

Now I also think we really need to figure out what is causing the problems in their home countries and seek to help them so they wont need to immigrate.
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:06 PM
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Well Obama was known to put his foot down at times and say NO to immigrants also so I dont see why the current democrats cannot do the same.
Probably the fact that they don't control any of the levers of government.
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:10 PM
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Well Obama was known to put his foot down at times and say NO to immigrants also so I dont see why the current democrats cannot do the same.

Now I also think we really need to figure out what is causing the problems in their home countries and seek to help them so they wont need to immigrate.
Well, there's that whole "war on drugs" thing conservatives are so fond of that has turned Central America into a hotbed of organized crime, corruption, and gang warfare.
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:24 PM
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:34 PM
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Probably the fact that they don't control any of the levers of government.
Being the minority party doesn't mean that one's stance makes no difference.

Otherwise this would be like Republicans in California saying, "We're the minority, so whether we support gay marriage or not is irrelevant."
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:43 PM
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People do not seem to be seeing the alarming fact that this caravan is a GIFT TO THE REPUBLICANS (in addition to being a human catastrophe). It is like a moving image of how Repub. supporters see Latin Americans: a growing horde clamoring to get in, lest we let the Democrats get in office. Close the gates (they'll say)!

Somehow it always seems like the Republicans have the benefit of an October surprise before an election —either up their own sleeves or by "luck." I wouldn't be shocked if the horde was organized by Trump himself or his Russian partners.

Of course I don't mean to diminish the horror of their plight; rather, I am referring to the political implications.
I don't believe the Soros conspiracy theorists one bit, but if this were a Soros-funded attempt to rally the vote in favor of Democrats it would be one of the most poorly thought out ones conceivable.
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:30 PM
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I wouldn't be shocked if the horde was organized by Trump himself or his Russian partners.
The timing is very suspicious. I doubt Trump himself is behind it; he's too cheap and this is too subtle for him. But I strongly suspect some conservative PAC fronted the money to get these people on the move.

I don't know about the Russians. I think Putin would be just as happy seeing the Democrats winning control of Congress with Trump remaining in office. Putin's interest is in America having a dysfunctional government and conflict between Congress and Trump would further that.
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Old 10-23-2018, 02:51 AM
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that is a very long way to walk. I can't see many people actually finishing the trek. There is really little hope they will succeed.
Or on the other hand, it could become a huge wave:
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Originally Posted by Skywatcher
7200 and growing according to the UN
After a month of walking, some will drop out, but several thousand will still be on the move.
And after a month of constant publicity, the final few days will draw a LOT of followers, and a LOT of TV news cameras.
As the caravan reaches, say, an easy 3 day walk to the US border, the thousands of Hondurans may find that thousands of local Mexicans join the bandwagon.
Some might just do it for a show of support, and then drop out.
But others will be trying to get to America,perhaps after being afraid to try on their own, but now feel emboldened and hopeful by being part of a large group.

So this may not fizzle out.On the contrary, it could become a huge political event.
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Old 10-23-2018, 07:16 AM
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Or on the other hand, it could become a huge wave:

After a month of walking, some will drop out, but several thousand will still be on the move.
And after a month of constant publicity, the final few days will draw a LOT of followers, and a LOT of TV news cameras.
As the caravan reaches, say, an easy 3 day walk to the US border, the thousands of Hondurans may find that thousands of local Mexicans join the bandwagon.
Some might just do it for a show of support, and then drop out.
But others will be trying to get to America,perhaps after being afraid to try on their own, but now feel emboldened and hopeful by being part of a large group.

So this may not fizzle out.On the contrary, it could become a huge political event.
Along with that, there are all those former migrants who have been deported before who can now join in. Heck anyone can. Even if they are not from central america but from places like the middle east or Africa.

So I suspect the numbers will swell as they get close to the border.
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Old 10-23-2018, 07:17 AM
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Oh yeah. Because people from Africa who can't even get on a plane to Europe will be getting in one to Mexico. That's some real amazing illogic there.
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Old 10-23-2018, 07:42 AM
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Even if they average about 20 miles per day -- a tall order walking through mixed terrain with children and (possibly) elderly migrants -- they wouldn't get to the border until well after election day.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 10-23-2018 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 10-23-2018, 07:49 AM
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Now I also think we really need to figure out what is causing the problems in their home countries and seek to help them so they wont need to immigrate.
...and yet the Republicans are planning to cut aid to those countries. Because that totally makes sense..
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Old 10-23-2018, 09:12 AM
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I know, bad idea. Although I dont know what we could do to help them. People mention the war on drugs but would making drugs legal really help the mass poverty down there?
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Old 10-23-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I know, bad idea. Although I dont know what we could do to help them.
If you believe that it is a bad idea, don't tell us about it-we already know. Write your congresscritters and your President and tell them what you think, or organize groups to get your point across, or vote people that support this crap out of office.

Unless of course your post is just lip service and you feel that, no matter how bad it gets, the ends justify the means as long as Your Team Wins.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 10-23-2018 at 10:19 AM.
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