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Old 11-04-2018, 09:06 PM
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asahi asahi is offline
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(Likely) Non-voting American dumbshits

I was having a relatively stable blood pressure weekend until I read this from New York Magazine, in which they interview young Americans who don't plan to vote.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/...wont-vote.html

All I can say is, maybe this is the end. Maybe the Enlightenment experiment of the 18th Century has run its course, lived its lifespan, and set to die in the 21st.

Here's a gem:

Quote:
I think there’s a way to be an informed nonvoter. I’d rather have an informed nonvoter than an uninformed voter going in and making a choice they don’t understand.


And then there's this thought salad:

Quote:
In my senior year in high school, I was probably borderline socialist. Though I don’t really think I understood what a socialist was. I was blatantly liberal and didn’t bother to check myself. My friend gave me The Prince, by Machiavelli. I read that, and it provided a certain nuance that I didn’t have. From there, I read more, and I realized that a lot of things I’d thought before were wrong. I got into Hellenism. I read Cicero, Livy. Later on, I got into Voltaire. Then, in college, my field is American politics and political science. I prefer constitutional law and Alexander Hamilton.
And this, folks, is a corker:

Quote:
It’s a wild theory, but setting voting up so that it’s all on social media, putting all that information in just an Instagram Story, in a Snapchat filter or whatever — bulleted-out, easy-to-read, digestible content — would encourage me to vote
GOOAAAALLLL!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e0rIiASFq4
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:35 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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I dunno, asahi, it may be a relief that some of those people are not voting. They'd probably provoke a recount and elect Kanye West by mistake.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 11-04-2018 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:08 PM
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:49 PM
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that quote reminds me of the episode of max headroom where each tv network ran a presidential candidate and you voted via ratings ………..
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Old 11-04-2018, 11:32 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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Those few dumbshits are nothing compared to the half a nation of dumbshits who voted Republican in 2016. EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL of them is a dumbshit of the worst kind and doesn't deserve to vote again in their life.
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Old 11-05-2018, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidwithanR View Post
Those few dumbshits are nothing compared to the half a nation of dumbshits who voted Republican in 2016. EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL of them is a dumbshit of the worst kind and doesn't deserve to vote again in their life.
Racist white trash voting for Trump are participating in your democracy (you may not like who they vote for). People who don’t vote just don’t give a shit about you, their country, their future, the environment they leave behind, kids in cages, bombs on Jemen, whatever. They are the worst kind of selfish, lazy, idiots. Way worse than the people who vote for the “wrong” candidate.

The problem is not the 30% of people who voted for Trump. It is the 70% who let them decide who represents all of you.
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Old 11-05-2018, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by The Librarian View Post
Racist white trash voting for Trump are participating in your democracy (you may not like who they vote for). People who don’t vote just don’t give a shit about you, their country, their future, the environment they leave behind, kids in cages, bombs on Jemen, whatever. They are the worst kind of selfish, lazy, idiots. Way worse than the people who vote for the “wrong” candidate.

The problem is not the 30% of people who voted for Trump. It is the 70% who let them decide who represents all of you.
^^This, a hundred times this.

You may think your vote doesn't matter. It does, it really does. Exercise your democratic right to vote people...otherwise, beware of the nasty consequences, and you will be held to blame.
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Old 11-05-2018, 03:00 AM
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In the words of Father Pedro Victory, SJ, as a PSA in Orgo class:

"life is choice. Every day we choose what to wear (some more than others ), what to have for breakfast, whether to come to class or not. You have the choice to vote next Sunday or to not vote, but if you do not, then you're making the choice to leave your life in other people's hands. Do you want to do that?"
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Old 11-05-2018, 03:27 AM
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I just spoke with an American yesterday who said, "Voting is a useless exercise. The Illuminati, the Rothschilds, run everything". Yeah, Cecil Adams; it really is taking longer than we thought.

Last edited by Monty; 11-05-2018 at 03:27 AM.
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Old 11-05-2018, 06:07 AM
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I think what sticks out in my mind is that we have a lot of people who just don't understand how a democratic system is intended to work. Our society is essentially teeming with millions who don't value democracy, and they don't see it as their civic duty to participate in a democratic political system.

When you couple this reality with the fact that the institutions that consistently receive the highest praise in our society are the military and the police, whereas the institutions that receive the lowest levels of trust are the free press and those elected to public office, it's clear that the Trump era isn't an anomaly. It's most likely the beginning of something very bad.

My pessimism isn't rooted in the fact that a misfit somehow pulled off the unthinkable one time. Even healthy democracies have hiccups. But the election of Trump wasn't a hiccup. It's a symptom. It reflected the fact that our faith in democracy is so low that it's almost certainly likely to produce more unpredictable, and at times, outrageous results in the future. It's also likely that regimes that show contempt for democracy and the rule of law won't necessarily be punished by voters at the polls because too many voters themselves simply don't identify with democracy and they don't identify with the institutions and rules that support it.
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Old 11-05-2018, 07:32 AM
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I told an American acquaintance about how wonderful our UK Universal Health Care (NHS) was.

Her response: "That is socialism, so it's very wrong. I shall vote for Trump."
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Old 11-05-2018, 07:39 AM
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Except in extremely limited, tight races, it's demonstrably true that the vote of a single individual is meaningless.
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Old 11-05-2018, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Balthisar View Post
Except in extremely limited, tight races, it's demonstrably true that the vote of a single individual is meaningless.
Which is why it is important that as many people as possible do it, and ideally on an informed and considered basis. No single snowflake or pebble is an avalanche.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:11 AM
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I was listening to my mother-in-law ranting about politicians and corruption once, and I asked her who she favored in the election. Her answer was that she had never voted in her life (she was in her 60s) I thought she should just stfu, if you can't be bothered to vote, you don't get to complain.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by catflea12 View Post
I was listening to my mother-in-law ranting about politicians and corruption once, and I asked her who she favored in the election. Her answer was that she had never voted in her life (she was in her 60s) I thought she should just stfu, if you can't be bothered to vote, you don't get to complain.
Moreover, it's because of her failure and the failure of others to participate that makes corruption worse. The participation of informed voters ensures some degree of accountability. Yes, there will always be corruption. Yes, people will try to lie and fool the public into voting against their interests, but that's why we use things like Google and Politifact, and that's why we try to keep up with news.

That's why I get so angry whenever I hear crap like "Well they have to inspire me to vote. It's my right to vote, and I will decide if I'm inspired enough to vote or not. They have to earn my participation."
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
My pessimism isn't rooted in the fact that a misfit somehow pulled off the unthinkable one time. Even healthy democracies have hiccups. But the election of Trump wasn't a hiccup. It's a symptom. It reflected the fact that our faith in democracy is so low that it's almost certainly likely to produce more unpredictable, and at times, outrageous results in the future. It's also likely that regimes that show contempt for democracy and the rule of law won't necessarily be punished by voters at the polls because too many voters themselves simply don't identify with democracy and they don't identify with the institutions and rules that support it.

This is a challenge of liberal democracy in general, both established and emergent -- how to keep people's support when part of the nature of the system is that often you lose, or even if you win then it fails to deliver the thing you advocated that "Everyone Sane MUST Agree Is What We Should Want".

Also as you see there, a lot of people want low-effort maintenance-free constitutional rule, whereby their rights and protections "just happen" and their interaction with political society functions essentially on autopilot.

So you have people like some in the article who say "oh, I can do more good working for an NGO"... without commenting on what happens if the NGO gets de-funded and its NPO status revoked, or if their clientele become targets of outright persecution, because it just does not cross their minds, they are too used to things just chugging along.
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Old 11-05-2018, 09:16 AM
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The OP presents the subject as if it is some sort of new phenomenon. It isn't. The U.S. has long lagged behind most other developed countries in voter participation, and with some election to election variation it's stayed within a not too wide range.
Quote:
No matter how they’re measured, U.S. turnout rates have been fairly consistent over the past several decades, despite some election-to-election variation. Since 1976, voting-age turnout has remained within an 8.5-percentage-point range – from just under 50% in 1996, when Bill Clinton was re-elected, to just over 58% in 2008, when Barack Obama won the White House.
The sadder item has been that the Millennials and those who have followed have been less likely to vote than previous generations were at those ages. Cynicism has a price. There are some indications that this midterm will see a reversal of that trend.
Quote:
A Harvard poll suggests that midterm turnout among Millennial and Generation Z voters could be historically high. Its findings, released Monday morning, may signal that the spike in Millennial political involvement that began after the 2016 election of Donald Trump hasn’t lost steam in the past two years. ...

... The survey, from the university’s Institute of Politics (IOP), found that 40 percent of young people ages 18 to 29 said they would “definitely vote” in the upcoming midterm elections. Historically, the biannual poll is off by high single digits from actual youth turnout. But if just 22 percent of this group votes, it would be the highest midterm turnout for young voters in at least 32 years. According to IOP’s director of polling, John Della Volpe, in the past three decades youth-voter turnout has only hit 21 percent twice—in 1986 and 1994. To Della Volpe, the potential turnout is starting to look more like it did in the 2016 presidential election than it did during the last midterms, in 2014.
Hey it is never hard to swing a stick and hit a dumbass (and be happy if the dumb ass you hit is not your own!) but this specific election is looking to be one in which more see the importance of participation than before. Maybe it won't happen but it is looking like it anyway.
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Old 11-05-2018, 09:52 AM
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I, for one, welcome our non-voting dumbshits. It's the voting dumbshits I worry about.
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:38 AM
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I, for one, welcome our non-voting dumbshits. It's the voting dumbshits I worry about.
As I glibly observed once, even dumshits deserve representation.
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Old 11-05-2018, 12:00 PM
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As I glibly observed once, even dumshits deserve representation.
Ah, the Roman Hruska argument:
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Even if he were mediocre, there are a lot of mediocre judges and people and lawyers. They are entitled to a little representation, aren't they, and a little chance?
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Old 11-05-2018, 12:11 PM
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Yep, diversity in all things!
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Old 11-05-2018, 01:09 PM
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Her response: "That is socialism, so it's very wrong. I shall vote for Trump."
I do hope you put her right.
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Old 11-05-2018, 01:14 PM
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You all remember that awesome Terrentino movie where the American special forces went undercover in Nazi occupied France and voted Hitler out of office in that theater? Me neither

This bullshit message board doesn't let me highlight text or I'd quote him, but that other poster said that an individual's vote demonstrably doesn't matter. I'm sick of having to argue this point to boomers who fucking act BAFFLED why young people aren't as enthusiastic as them about casting a virtually worthless vote for the marginally nicer Bond villain.

"no snowflake feels responsible for the avalanche"- no snowflake IS responsible for the avalanche. Everyone who votes is doing a good thing but it's not enough. It's like when there's a recession. We try a lot of different things that actually matter don't we? We don't blame the consumer for not going to walmart and buying- whatever, doesn't matter- the thing they don't want the least.

You people LOVE voting. You do it every other November and spend the rest of the year talking about how great it was and how much you're looking forward to it the November after the next one. It's pathetic really. Did you also fuck your spouse in October and can't hardly contain yourself because the second Thursday of the month is almost here?

Hey I made a decision while I wrote this post: fuck every single one of you who shits on non-voters for not voting. You also cry about how millennials are killing Miracle Whip and the timeshare. Some things deserve to die, shit heads
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Old 11-05-2018, 01:15 PM
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Except in extremely limited, tight races, it's demonstrably true that the vote of a single individual is meaningless.
That is absolutely not true. On the politics side, politicians look at all the votes. Who votes, where they vote, for whom they vote, why they vote, etc ad nauseam. On the personal side, your vote is your statement. You may be the lone dissenter, but your dissent may encourage others to dissent in future; contrariwise, if you are in a safe seat for your preferred candidate, you still need to go out and vote for them to keep it safe, because if too many stay home then the seat may not actually be safe and your candidate may actually lose.
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Old 11-05-2018, 02:03 PM
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It seems to me that folks who complain the loudest about low voter turnout seem to have the underlying assumption that those who don't vote would vote the same way they would.
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Old 11-05-2018, 02:07 PM
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You people LOVE voting. You do it every other November and spend the rest of the year talking about how great it was and how much you're looking forward to it the November after the next one. It's pathetic really. Did you also fuck your spouse in October and can't hardly contain yourself because the second Thursday of the month is almost here?
I only fuck my wife after she votes. Otherwise, I withhold my love.


Quote:
Hey I made a decision while I wrote this post: fuck every single one of you who shits on non-voters for not voting. You also cry about how millennials are killing Miracle Whip and the timeshare. Some things deserve to die, shit heads
Voting deserves to die? First time I've heard this sentiment. Care to elaborate?
(I'm with you on Miracle Whip and timeshares)
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Old 11-05-2018, 02:14 PM
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Sounds like some independent thinking individuals. Def not Boomers. If I had to pinpoint a theme, it’s that the mechanism of democracy is flawed. Very level-headed reaction to the rise of Trump and Obama.
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Old 11-05-2018, 02:21 PM
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[snip]

That's why I get so angry whenever I hear crap like "Well they have to inspire me to vote. It's my right to vote, and I will decide if I'm inspired enough to vote or not. They have to earn my participation."
I hope you see how your fantastic two-party system might be propagating this trend, especially in the age of inattentiveness.

But still fuck it, fucking vote even if you hate it, even if you don't know or understand shit, even if you don't, like really like like, you know? a candidate. I fucking hate it, because my party has always been the but-they're-never-gonna-count-anyway-party. But they do fucking count, they made a difference for decades outside of parliament for fucks sake! Don't come here and tell me my vote didn't count when you didn't even bother!
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Old 11-05-2018, 05:28 PM
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You all remember that awesome Terrentino movie where the American special forces went undercover in Nazi occupied France and voted Hitler out of office in that theater? Me neither

This bullshit message board doesn't let me highlight text or I'd quote him, but that other poster said that an individual's vote demonstrably doesn't matter. I'm sick of having to argue this point to boomers who fucking act BAFFLED why young people aren't as enthusiastic as them about casting a virtually worthless vote for the marginally nicer Bond villain.

"no snowflake feels responsible for the avalanche"- no snowflake IS responsible for the avalanche. Everyone who votes is doing a good thing but it's not enough. It's like when there's a recession. We try a lot of different things that actually matter don't we? We don't blame the consumer for not going to walmart and buying- whatever, doesn't matter- the thing they don't want the least.

You people LOVE voting. You do it every other November and spend the rest of the year talking about how great it was and how much you're looking forward to it the November after the next one. It's pathetic really. Did you also fuck your spouse in October and can't hardly contain yourself because the second Thursday of the month is almost here?

Hey I made a decision while I wrote this post: fuck every single one of you who shits on non-voters for not voting. You also cry about how millennials are killing Miracle Whip and the timeshare. Some things deserve to die, shit heads
  #30  
Old 11-06-2018, 03:05 AM
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I'm a U.S. citizen, and I don't vote in U.S. Elections.

I do vote in my own country's elections, of course.

I haven't lived in the States for over 16 years, and I don't consider myself an American. I don't think people like me should vote. For one, enough people in the world can't vote at all; it's unfair that some of us can vote twice. For another, I believe voting in U.S. elections when my loyalty and allegiance is to a country other than America is nothing more than a legal version of foreign election tampering.

But I'm an exception. And if I were living in the U.S. right now, damn right I'd vote.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
I'm a U.S. citizen, and I don't vote in U.S. Elections.

I do vote in my own country's elections, of course.

I haven't lived in the States for over 16 years, and I don't consider myself an American. I don't think people like me should vote. For one, enough people in the world can't vote at all; it's unfair that some of us can vote twice. For another, I believe voting in U.S. elections when my loyalty and allegiance is to a country other than America is nothing more than a legal version of foreign election tampering.

But I'm an exception. And if I were living in the U.S. right now, damn right I'd vote.
Huh.

I've lived in Australia (almost) 14 years now, and I vote in both, and I think it's completely right and proper - in fact, your way of thinking never occurred to me at all.

For your first point, how does your (or my) not voting in both of the countries that we are citizens of help those who cannot vote at all? Or even affect them? I confess, I'm entirely confused by your feelings on that one.

The second, well, I suppose I could sort of get it...if I felt that I could only be loyal to one country at a time. I don't believe that, anymore than I believe that if I love (for example) my parents, I cannot love anyone else.
Now, if the two countries were actively hostile, I might drop one or the other, but that doesn't apply to either of our adoptive countries with respect to the US.

So far as I'm concerned, voting is a responsibility of citizenship, and I'm curious as to why you retain your US citizenship if you don't intend to vote.


(I hasten to add, I'm not condemning you, I just don't get it)

Last edited by galen ubal; 11-06-2018 at 03:21 AM. Reason: one last line
  #32  
Old 11-06-2018, 03:59 AM
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Say I believe one candidate is better for the U.S. and the other candidate is better for Israel. Hardly a hypothetical situation. Who should I vote for? I can't vote or the one who's worse for Israel, because I consider myself an Israeli first and foremost and I refuse to take any action that could cause my country harm. But I can't vote for the one who I think is worse for the United States, because that would be harming America, a country I care for deeply - as well as exactly the kind of "dual loyalty" people accuse Jews of having. So I don't vote at all. Even this year, when the choice is clearer in my mind, I still won't vote out of principle. It's not a choice I should be making.

Plus, as someone who doesn't live in a voting district, what right do I have to impose my opinion on those who do? I'm not the one who'll suffer if I'm wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galen ubal View Post
For your first point, how does your (or my) not voting in both of the countries that we are citizens of help those who cannot vote at all? Or even affect them? I confess, I'm entirely confused by your feelings on that one.
It bothers me. It makes me feel privileged, like I think I'm better than everyone else.

As to why I keep my citizenship, the passport is useful when I want to visit Stateside. I still have some family there, after all. Even then, I'd give it up if I didn't suspect that the U.S. authorities might not be eager to grant a visa to someone who'd renounced his citizenship.

Last edited by Alessan; 11-06-2018 at 04:03 AM.
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Old 11-06-2018, 06:04 AM
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I've been in the UK for over two decades and I still vote in the US. Admittedly I do spend a few weeks a year in the US but still: I vote because I care about the country and want the least worst people running it.

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Originally Posted by Gatopescado View Post
It seems to me that folks who complain the loudest about low voter turnout seem to have the underlying assumption that those who don't vote would vote the same way they would.
I would rather the majority of people vote, even if they vote some other way, as long as the voting system was free and fair. Democracy means my side loses sometimes, but I'd rather the decision be made by the people as a whole rather than by a few small riled-up groups who vote while the rest of the population don't bother.
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Old 11-06-2018, 06:50 AM
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Sounds like some independent thinking individuals. Def not Boomers. If I had to pinpoint a theme, it’s that the mechanism of democracy is flawed. Very level-headed reaction to the rise of Trump and Obama.
Democracy itself isn't inherently flawed, but our current constitution and political system may no longer be compatible with the times in which we live. The Framers of the Constitution couldn't have envisioned the power of electronic tribes. Our electronic tribalism stands in diametric opposition to a diverse, democratic society, open, inclusive society. The organizers of such tribes seem to do so with the idea of creating identities and excluding those who don't buy into that identity. These social forces are tearing people apart, and I don't know if anyone really knows how to stop the forward momentum of such a force - other than regulating the platforms (Facebook, Twitter, etc). But people will inevitably regulate them as they see fit, and with their own designs.
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Old 11-06-2018, 07:20 AM
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Say I believe one candidate is better for the U.S. and the other candidate is better for Israel. Hardly a hypothetical situation. ...
I can understand recusing yourself in that specific circumstance, just as a judge does on a case in which there may be a conflict of interest. But those judges rule on bunches of other cases just fine. And, having read your posts for years, there are also many times that that you can honestly conclude that the best choice for the United States is also in Israel's best interests.
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Old 11-06-2018, 07:31 AM
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Almost lost in the mists of time, I remember that one of the debates about the current Spanish constitution (well, it's original incarnation, it's been tweaked) was that one region proposed letting people have two voting addresses so, if you were from TownA in RegionA and lived in TownB in RegionB, you would be able to vote in two local and two regional elections; the rest of the country thought that region was nuts with sulphuric acid on top. You have one vote at each level, period.

Now citizens from other European countries can vote and run in local Spanish elections; depending on the requirements of their own country, they can also vote in local elections back home. Most Spaniards still think that allowing a Spaniard to vote in two different local Spanish elections would be nuts, though.

Different people have different notions of fairness, and this includes when they consider it fair to exercise a legal right. To me that's fine; I'd much rather deal with someone whose notion is different from mine than with someone who doesn't bother have one!
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  #37  
Old 11-06-2018, 07:54 AM
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I can understand recusing yourself in that specific circumstance, just as a judge does on a case in which there may be a conflict of interest. But those judges rule on bunches of other cases just fine. And, having read your posts for years, there are also many times that that you can honestly conclude that the best choice for the United States is also in Israel's best interests.
True, but over the years I've persuaded several U.S. citizens - including members of my own family - not to vote in U.S. elections for the very reasons I laid out above. Considering who they'd have voted for, it's probably for the best if none of us vote.

Besides, it's a matter of principle. I take voting very seriously, and if I don't think I should vote, then I shouldn't vote, no matter who's running.

Last edited by Alessan; 11-06-2018 at 07:59 AM.
  #38  
Old 11-06-2018, 08:18 AM
Balthisar Balthisar is offline
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That is absolutely not true. ... [I]f you are in a safe seat for your preferred candidate, you still need to go out and vote for them to keep it safe, because if too many stay home then the seat may not actually be safe and your candidate may actually lose.
So like I said in a true fashion, other than in super tight races, your vote demonstrably does not count? I'm not sure what you're negating, as you're agreeing with me.
  #39  
Old 11-06-2018, 09:35 AM
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I think what sticks out in my mind is that we have a lot of people who just don't understand how a democratic system is intended to work.
I know how it's intended to work; it's just that ours is broken to the core & doesn't in any way work like it's intended to. I heard that one of the two big FL races alone was over $100 million. I can't participate in any meaningful way (read $) that any of the candidates would be concerned about my concern if that wasn't already their position. What if I like some of their positions but not other ones?


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I was listening to my mother-in-law ranting about politicians and corruption once, and I asked her who she favored in the election. Her answer was that she had never voted in her life (she was in her 60s) I thought she should just stfu, if you can't be bothered to vote, you don't get to complain.
That's one of the main reasons that I vote, so I can bitch.
  #40  
Old 11-06-2018, 09:55 AM
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So like I said in a true fashion, other than in super tight races, your vote demonstrably does not count? I'm not sure what you're negating, as you're agreeing with me.
No, he's saying that the number of votes isn't just important for deciding who wins but also for deciding the size of the win, which also has a potentially significant effect. It makes more of a difference in the UK, where the size of one's majority affects one's political prospects, but even in the US a narrow victory or loss this time will draw a lot more money and attention the next round for both sides.

Votes count. They count as one vote (except for President, where it depends where you live). No more, but no less either.

Last edited by Gyrate; 11-06-2018 at 09:57 AM.
  #41  
Old 11-06-2018, 10:51 AM
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Voting deserves to die? First time I've heard this sentiment. Care to elaborate?
(I'm with you on Miracle Whip and timeshares)
I shouldn't say voting deserves to die. Miracle whip is a bad analogy I didn't think through. I would say that the way people pick their leaders in the US in 2018 is totally broken and does deserve to die, probably replaced by some other way of voting.

Usually people lightly acknowledge there's problems with the system then just hammer on about how great voting is anyway and how they vote more before 6 am than most men do all day. But there's a lot of people in this thread talking about this flawed electoral system instead of who can vote the hardest which makes me less hostile than I was.

Another bad analogy would be like telling a Russian "if you don't vote you can't complain". Voting is just one dimension of political expression. The more screwed up the electoral system gets the more important the other avenues are. Basically if you punch a Nazi you should be off the hook for the next ten elections.
  #42  
Old 11-06-2018, 11:05 AM
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I know how it's intended to work; it's just that ours is broken to the core & doesn't in any way work like it's intended to. I heard that one of the two big FL races alone was over $100 million. I can't participate in any meaningful way (read $) that any of the candidates would be concerned about my concern if that wasn't already their position. What if I like some of their positions but not other ones?
There's no question that the system has lots of corruption, but that's also a product of years of corrosion - years of cumulative voter ignorance, apathy, and non-participation. The solution isn't less participation; it's more of it, even when it's difficult - especially when it's difficult. The less democratic participation there is, the less democratic a society inevitably becomes. And it becomes more expensive, more challenging to repair the damage the further down this road we go. Authoritarians don't just let you go back to the way it was once you realize you're not happy with them. The costs of sticking your neck out to challenge them at that point isn't just volunteering your time to vote or organize; it could mean ending up in jail - or worse.

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That's one of the main reasons that I vote, so I can bitch.
People who don't vote can bitch too.
  #43  
Old 11-06-2018, 11:34 AM
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A big part of voter apathy, imo, is the fucked up electoral systems we have both in states and nationally. It's way past time to look seriously at better systems that make people feel good about their representation.
  #44  
Old 11-06-2018, 11:40 AM
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Democracy itself isn't inherently flawed, but our current constitution and political system may no longer be compatible with the times in which we live. The Framers of the Constitution couldn't have envisioned the power of electronic tribes. Our electronic tribalism stands in diametric opposition to a diverse, democratic society, open, inclusive society. The organizers of such tribes seem to do so with the idea of creating identities and excluding those who don't buy into that identity. These social forces are tearing people apart, and I don't know if anyone really knows how to stop the forward momentum of such a force - other than regulating the platforms (Facebook, Twitter, etc). But people will inevitably regulate them as they see fit, and with their own designs.
I could see these individuals agreeing with your statements. In fact, I think it is difficult to argue that nonvoters are dumb if you believe the political system is not compatible with how they live.

Tribes are ok. Tribes can coexist under a loose confederation and network of alliances. See Switzerland. See pre-unification Italy and Germany, especially. You will see a human flourishing that is very cosmopolitan and progressive for its time. Tribalism is a problem when the tribes are jockeying for control of a centralized government.
  #45  
Old 11-06-2018, 07:18 PM
Balthisar Balthisar is offline
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No, he's saying that the number of votes isn't just important for deciding who wins but also for deciding the size of the win, which also has a potentially significant effect.
He didn't say that at all. And given this isn't the UK and we don't have coalitions, the two parties will never struggle for funds based on a single vote. Remember, we're talking about a single vote here, and not aggregate numbers.
  #46  
Old 11-06-2018, 07:55 PM
Textual Innuendo Textual Innuendo is online now
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I'm with the minority here so far - voting sucks. I think voting matters *this* election, because we're basically in a Pascal's wager situation right now where there's a tiny but not-insignificant chance of world-changingly awful things happening if things keep going on as they are, and we should do whatever low-cost things we can to mitigate against that, however insignificant...but broadly, voting in the US sucks and is pointless.

It's like Walmarticus said, if you lived in Russia, are you going to be excited about voting? Well, guess what - we have about as much real choice as the Russians do in terms of being able to elect somebody who isn't 100% a creature of the current corrupt system. Either owned by it or owners of parts of it, those are the only two flavors you can choose from, either in Russia or here.

It's like telling a cancer patient that although they can't afford treatment, they can vote on whether they get meatloaf or chicken pot pie for dinner. The changes we actually NEED aren't up for vote.

And there's no real path to meaningful change, given it would require one or more constitutional amendments and we can't even cross the aisle enough to approve short-term continuing budget resolutions that are in the best interests of everyone.

Instead, we can choose Kang (R) or Kodos (D), and be real proud that we *voted* and we're *making a difference!*
  #47  
Old 11-06-2018, 09:09 PM
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Re post #46: What a steaming load of unadulterated horse shit.
  #48  
Old 11-06-2018, 09:24 PM
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I'm with the minority here so far - voting sucks. I think voting matters *this* election, because we're basically in a Pascal's wager situation right now where there's a tiny but not-insignificant chance of world-changingly awful things happening if things keep going on as they are, and we should do whatever low-cost things we can to mitigate against that, however insignificant...but broadly, voting in the US sucks and is pointless.

It's like Walmarticus said, if you lived in Russia, are you going to be excited about voting? Well, guess what - we have about as much real choice as the Russians do in terms of being able to elect somebody who isn't 100% a creature of the current corrupt system. Either owned by it or owners of parts of it, those are the only two flavors you can choose from, either in Russia or here.

It's like telling a cancer patient that although they can't afford treatment, they can vote on whether they get meatloaf or chicken pot pie for dinner. The changes we actually NEED aren't up for vote.

And there's no real path to meaningful change, given it would require one or more constitutional amendments and we can't even cross the aisle enough to approve short-term continuing budget resolutions that are in the best interests of everyone.

Instead, we can choose Kang (R) or Kodos (D), and be real proud that we *voted* and we're *making a difference!*
And it's attitudes like yours over the past 30-40 years that have gotten us where we are. Congrats, meathead.
  #49  
Old 11-06-2018, 10:44 PM
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I'd just like to say that Walmarticus is a fucking cool username.
  #50  
Old 11-06-2018, 11:03 PM
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The changes we actually NEED aren't up for vote.
Wrong. A first step is to show politicians that we won't put up with moronic racists that only care about themselves. We need to support any, and everything to get rid of them. We need to start with their moron in chief, Donald Trump. One way to do that would be to turn the Senate.

Guess how that happens. It starts at the base. It starts with every asshole that supports republicans that support trump. From county commissioner on up. THAT'S how things change. Since republicans only care for their own interest, we have to show them that if they are against others interests, they are gonna lose their job..

It looks like Democrats now have the house (no help from you Textual Innuendo [I assume you did not vote]). This will give Mueller some help in protecting his investigation against the criminal trump, and his buddies.

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And there's no real path to meaningful change, given it would require one or more constitutional amendments and we can't even cross the aisle enough to approve short-term continuing budget resolutions that are in the best interests of everyone.
Oh, and this is horse shit too. No amendments needed. Just don't vote for fucking criminals would be a good start.
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