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Old 11-11-2018, 11:33 AM
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Republicans are like a jealous ex-boyfriend

I was reading an article the other day about how, now that WI Gov. Scott Walker was defeated for re-election, the GOP is convening a special session of the legislature to pass laws that will hamstring the incoming Democratic governor. And I recall the North Carolina legislature pulling the same crap a few years ago when their Republican governor was defeated. Which got me to thinking, Republicans are like crazy jealous ex-boyfriends. When you dump them, they don't just go away. No, they are sore losers. They have that "if I can't have you, nobody can" mentality where they will burn your car, break into your house, hold you at knife point or gunpoint and generally just make your life a living hell because they don't get what they want.

At least, that's kinda how it seems to me...
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:05 PM
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It's been amply demonstrated that, by and large, republicans do not believe in democracy. They do not want democracy, unless it means that white, conservative males are running the show.

As they die off and become marginalized, expect even more extreme measures to grasp power. This impotence among the entitled class is unleashing an ugly rage. The next few decades will the test the American experiment in ways not seen before.
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:15 PM
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I think this is exactly right. The vindictiveness even to destruction is the same emotion.
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:16 PM
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Old 11-11-2018, 01:15 PM
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Meanwhile, in Texas, a GOP judge upon losing decided that he should free a bunch of defendents that came before his court because that's what the voters wanted. I.e., he thinks the Dems were just going to release them anyway.

Real mature there.

The first rule of propaganda is never believe your own.
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Old 11-11-2018, 01:34 PM
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Old 11-11-2018, 04:58 PM
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"If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy."
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Old 11-11-2018, 07:34 PM
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Old 11-11-2018, 08:38 PM
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The problem isn't republicans, is it the voters who enable them.

If voters stop voting for republicans who declare war on democracy, then the problem will go away.

As long as the voters support this behavior, it won't stop.

And I'm aware Walker lost his election. But only barely.
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:55 AM
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It's almost as if the Republican Party is a white nationalist authoritarian political movement. Let's see, the GOP dominated Supreme Court ends federal oversight of elections in the south and southern states immediately begin suppressing black voting. Shocking, I'm sure the Supreme Court would be shocked, shocked to find out that what we all knew was going to happen, happened.
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Old 11-12-2018, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Shoeless View Post
I was reading an article the other day about how, now that WI Gov. Scott Walker was defeated for re-election, the GOP is convening a special session of the legislature to pass laws that will hamstring the incoming Democratic governor. And I recall the North Carolina legislature pulling the same crap a few years ago when their Republican governor was defeated. Which got me to thinking, Republicans are like crazy jealous ex-boyfriends. When you dump them, they don't just go away. No, they are sore losers. They have that "if I can't have you, nobody can" mentality where they will burn your car, break into your house, hold you at knife point or gunpoint and generally just make your life a living hell because they don't get what they want.

At least, that's kinda how it seems to me...
I'm being serious when I say I don't think liberal ex-boyfriends do this, I think this is a feature shared by conservative exes and conservative politicians.
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Old 11-12-2018, 07:47 AM
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Old 11-12-2018, 10:13 AM
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Wrong forum.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:10 AM
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Wrong forum.
Please, just report it.

But I agree. This is better suited to the Pit.
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:15 PM
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Please, just report it.

But I agree. This is better suited to the Pit.
I did.
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:17 PM
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I did.
Emphasis on "just." Thank you for the report.
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:45 PM
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Thanks. Always interested in what Frum has to say.
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:52 PM
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I did.
It's been years since I've seen The Wire, but was Omar Little a tender little snowflake who needed safe spaces?
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Old 11-12-2018, 05:41 PM
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The problem isn't republicans, is it the voters who enable them.

If voters stop voting for republicans who declare war on democracy, then the problem will go away.

As long as the voters support this behavior, it won't stop.

And I'm aware Walker lost his election. But only barely.
That would make sense, if they weren't pulling this shit after voters DO vote for Democrats. This is like telling someone who had their business burned down by a vengeful ex-employee that they should have just fired the person.
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Old 11-12-2018, 05:46 PM
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It's been years since I've seen The Wire, but was Omar Little a tender little snowflake who needed safe spaces?
Since when does someone seeking a bit of order around this place qualify them as a snowflake. People post shit in the wrong places around here all the time. Don't assume my request for a move has anything to do with my personality, you dumb fuck.

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Old 11-12-2018, 06:06 PM
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The problem isn't republicans, is it the voters who enable them.

If voters stop voting for republicans who declare war on democracy, then the problem will go away.

As long as the voters support this behavior, it won't stop.

And I'm aware Walker lost his election. But only barely.
Except - this is about republicans who no longer have public support. They lost their election. In response, their reaction is to shift power around so that they can keep as much of it as humanly possible. It happened in North Carolina, it's happening here. The playbook is blatant - if republicans are about to lose a branch, shift power so that that branch becomes subservient to the branches the republicans do control.

I agree, it would be nice if we could collectively vote every republican out of office. And while we're fantasizing, I want a magic unicorn to be my best friend. In the meanwhile, it's important to keep track of these kinds of blatant abuses.
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Old 11-12-2018, 08:48 PM
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Since when does someone seeking a bit of order around this place qualify them as a snowflake. People post shit in the wrong places around here all the time. Don't assume my request for a move has anything to do with my personality, you dumb fuck.
Nah, this guy is more your speed.
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Old 11-12-2018, 08:52 PM
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Nah, they're more like a date rapist. They slip rohypnol into your cocktail, make you pass out, rape you, and then deny it.
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Old 11-13-2018, 12:59 AM
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It's almost as if the Republican Party is a white nationalist authoritarian political movement. Let's see, the GOP dominated Supreme Court ends federal oversight of elections in the south and southern states immediately begin suppressing black voting. Shocking, I'm sure the Supreme Court would be shocked, shocked to find out that what we all knew was going to happen, happened.
(emphasis mine)

Bingo.

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I also am not going to sit idly by and let him (Governor-elect Tony Evers) repeal Act 10 by executive action alone, or to try to undermine Voter ID, or say that people on welfare don’t have to work. I want to make sure that, if any of those changes happen, that we’re at the table negotiating and it’s not just him dictating.
The mind seizes to comprehend the stupidity in the above statement. If a person of color said it, white folks would be as outraged as they were when Obama wore a tan suit or Michelle's showed her bare arms.

What we're witnessing is the Republican party openly transforming itself into the party of white supremacy. Just today - today - a sitting white Senator talked about she would attend a hanging. She said it openly, was unafraid, and did not apologize or acknowledge that those words could be hurtful to people of color. The context of this statement cannot be overstated: Mississippi from 1882-1968 had the highest reported lynchings in the United States. This is a state where people show up to the polls in shirts like this one . This is state that has a long and storied history of terrorizing, torturing, and killing people of color. And, she said this, despite her opponent is an African-American. And, make no mistake about it: Senator Hyde-Smith won't win despite of her racism, she will be seated as a Senator in Congress because of her racism. White liberals shrug.

There should be no misunderstanding. Republicans are never going to let go of power and if you wrench it from them, you'll be dealing with an insurgency of mail bombs, threats, mass shootings, and hate crimes all fueled by a 24/7 white supremacist propaganda machine. You see them now screaming in Obama-like outrage over Brenda Snipes for the crime of being a person of color is overseeing an important election. Republicans explicit goal is white supremacy and their function is to ensure that even if there are demographic shifts, that the people who have the means of production, that the people who have the all of the wealth, that the people who are in the position of political power are all white. It's South Africa all over again.

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Old 11-13-2018, 01:28 AM
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If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.
Huey, I don't disagree with what you wrote, but it's only South Africa all over again if we let it happen.
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Old 11-13-2018, 01:38 AM
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The GOP has been pandering to white nationalists since the Southern Strategy. What's changed is that now, it's all the party is about. It's not about fiscal responsibility, it's not about small government. It is about white nationalism. I know I sound like a broken record, but look at what they did in Georgia: they used their control over the state to disenfranchise black voters and hold a sham election. If this was happening somewhere overseas, our state department would be condemning it. Trumpism is based on the realization that white America is losing its grip on power and deciding that they will not go quietly.

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Old 11-13-2018, 03:29 AM
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There should be no misunderstanding. Republicans are never going to let go of power and if you wrench it from them, you'll be dealing with an insurgency of mail bombs, threats, mass shootings, and hate crimes all fueled by a 24/7 white supremacist propaganda machine. You see them now screaming in Obama-like outrage over Brenda Snipes for the crime of being a person of color is overseeing an important election. Republicans explicit goal is white supremacy and their function is to ensure that even if there are demographic shifts, that the people who have the means of production, that the people who have the all of the wealth, that the people who are in the position of political power are all white. It's South Africa all over again.
To extend the parallels to South Africa.

The Nationalist government that created Apartheid won the election in 1948 in a manner that will be very familiar to Americans.

They lost the popular vote, but gained more seats in parliament due to gerrymandering and the outsized value of rural votes. They ran on a platform of white supremacy, fear of non-whites, fear of immigration (of English speaking whites) and accusations of support for communism against their opponents.

Their opponents had vague feel good policies, relied on leadership that coasted on the inertia of previous successes and they completely failed to comprehend the extremist campaign the Nationalists were running.

See wikipedia for a summary.

Last edited by yendis; 11-13-2018 at 03:29 AM.
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Old 11-13-2018, 06:28 AM
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The problem isn't republicans, is it the voters who enable them.

If voters stop voting for republicans who declare war on democracy, then the problem will go away.

As long as the voters support this behavior, it won't stop.

And I'm aware Walker lost his election. But only barely.
It also requires more people on the left and in the center to come off the bench and get into the game of democracy. Indifference is just as much of a problem as those who are actively supporting the rise of authoritarianism.

I think this is why Bernie's gaffe the other day actually does matter. I don't think Sanders is a racist, but being oblivious to the very clear and present danger that white nationalism and authoritarianism pose is problematic.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:02 AM
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It also requires more people on the left and in the center to come off the bench and get into the game of democracy. Indifference is just as much of a problem as those who are actively supporting the rise of authoritarianism.

I think this is why Bernie's gaffe the other day actually does matter. I don't think Sanders is a racist, but being oblivious to the very clear and present danger that white nationalism and authoritarianism pose is problematic.
Sorry, I missed this. Linky?

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Old 11-14-2018, 06:42 AM
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Sorry, I missed this. Linky?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/bernie...ack-candidates
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Old 11-14-2018, 08:21 AM
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It is a gaffe to point out that a lot of people have problems voting for someone they consider "not one of us", and that true comprehension of that "other" actually being "one of us" takes time? Because that's what he said and it ain't breaking news.
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Old 11-14-2018, 08:52 AM
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Well, he said that "I think you know there are a lot of white folks out there who are not necessarily racist who felt uncomfortable for the first time in their lives about whether or not they wanted to vote for an African-American."

I think a lot of people would contend that not voting for someone just because they are not black is racist. That certainly is what he was criticized for, being tone deaf and oblivious.
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:01 AM
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He didn't say he felt uncomfortable. He said a lot of people do, which happens to be true. Many other people do feel uncomfortable voting for a woman, for someone of a different religion, or from a different cultural group (no distinguishing physical features between both groups); this discomfort becomes lower with time, which he also pointed out and which is also true. If Bernie Sanders is now expected to start avoiding saying anything that sounds bad, even if it happens to be true and relevant... that would be a different guy.
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:14 AM
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I didn't say that he said he was uncomfortable. In fact, I posted in quotation marks exactly what he said.

Not voting for woman because she's a woman is sexist. Not voting for a black person because he's a black person is racist. If Sanders had said "some people felt uncomfortable voting for a black person," without the not necessarily racist modify he would have been fine. The criticism is that he was oblivious and dismissive of the impact of racism in America, not that he's racist.

Last edited by madmonk28; 11-14-2018 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 11-14-2018, 10:13 AM
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I didn't say that he said he was uncomfortable. In fact, I posted in quotation marks exactly what he said.

Not voting for woman because she's a woman is sexist. Not voting for a black person because he's a black person is racist. If Sanders had said "some people felt uncomfortable voting for a black person," without the not necessarily racist modify he would have been fine. The criticism is that he was oblivious and dismissive of the impact of racism in America, not that he's racist.
If his qualifier was " who do not think of themselves as racist." then that'd work too. Especially if you then point out that they are becoming less so.

But yeah, he said, in effect, "People who are not necessarily racist make decisions based on race."

To use kid gloves, and not out and out call them racists for being uncomfortable voting for a black man due to his race is political speak, I can get behind using soft language when approaching the topic. But he went beyond that, and justified their racism, and called the act of discrimination based on racial characteristics "not necessarily racist".
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:10 PM
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Oooh. So you're thinking he's being polite with people he shouldn't be polite with.

Well, thing is, it really is not always racist. For many people the discomfort is the same whenever someone who's not "the expected type" is found wherever. We often label these reactions racism (where "race" may refer to ancestry or to cultural identification) or sexism, but it's actually a different kind of issue. It's not a matter of "men shouldn't be X" or "black people shouldn't be X" as one of "this person doesn't fit my mental image of what an X should look like"; if their mental image doesn't include the possibility of tats, a person with tats would produce the same negative reaction despite otherwise fitting the mental image. That's why seeing more of these "unexpected people" in whatever place they were unexpected lowers the rejection: it creates familiarity, the mental image gets redefined and widened.
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:32 PM
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Yes, he’s being polite to bigots. The rest of your post is to simply describe bigotry and then say it’s not bigotry.
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:38 PM
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They're just in denial.
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Old 11-14-2018, 01:39 PM
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Well, he said that "I think you know there are a lot of white folks out there who are not necessarily racist who felt uncomfortable for the first time in their lives about whether or not they wanted to vote for an African-American."

I think a lot of people would contend that not voting for someone just because they are not black is racist. That certainly is what he was criticized for, being tone deaf and oblivious.
This is the slippery slope. If whites don't vote for a black because they don't think he's qualified, does that make them racist? For every Barack Obama, there's a Marion Barry. Black politicians can be just as corrupt as whites, like Kwame Kilpatrick, who was just as hostile to the press when they covered his misdeeds as our current president.

It's part of human nature to side with those who resemble you, and the risk of being labeled racist for supporting one's own race doesn't help matters. I think Sanders was being honest and realistic. No amount of legislation or regulation is going to force people to prefer different races from their own. Candidates shouldn't qualify for office just because of race. The way to win elections is to get more people to support you, not alienate them and force them to vote for you because of a sense of entitlement.
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Old 11-14-2018, 01:47 PM
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This is the slippery slope. If whites don't vote for a black because they don't think he's qualified, does that make them racist? ...
No, and no one is saying that, consider the slope up slippery and in fact sticky. What Sanders said and again I am pointing out that I put exactly what he said in quotes in my post, was that some people didn’t feel comfortable voting for the first time for a black person and that they were not racists. The slope is not slippery, it’s ok.

Last edited by madmonk28; 11-14-2018 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:38 PM
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This is the slippery slope. If whites don't vote for a black because they don't think he's qualified, does that make them racist? For every Barack Obama, there's a Marion Barry. Black politicians can be just as corrupt as whites, like Kwame Kilpatrick, who was just as hostile to the press when they covered his misdeeds as our current president.

It's part of human nature to side with those who resemble you, and the risk of being labeled racist for supporting one's own race doesn't help matters. I think Sanders was being honest and realistic. No amount of legislation or regulation is going to force people to prefer different races from their own. Candidates shouldn't qualify for office just because of race. The way to win elections is to get more people to support you, not alienate them and force them to vote for you because of a sense of entitlement.
The issue is that we see someone of our own race as "like us" more than someone of the same class, occupation, nationality, geographical region, gender, religion, sports fandom, educational background, handedness, feelings about pineapple on pizza, etc. We see a person different from us in every single way except skin tone as more "like us" than someone with whom we share everything except skin tone. That's utterly arbitrary. That was an invention, designed to justify race-based slavery at a time when the potential profits from such were simply overwhelming.
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Old 11-14-2018, 05:01 PM
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Since when does someone seeking a bit of order around this place qualify them as a snowflake. People post shit in the wrong places around here all the time. Don't assume my request for a move has anything to do with my personality, you dumb fuck.
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[/whistling]
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Old 11-14-2018, 05:50 PM
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I was reading an article the other day about how, now that WI Gov. Scott Walker was defeated for re-election, the GOP is convening a special session of the legislature to pass laws that will hamstring the incoming Democratic governor. And I recall the North Carolina legislature pulling the same crap a few years ago when their Republican governor was defeated. Which got me to thinking, Republicans are like crazy jealous ex-boyfriends. When you dump them, they don't just go away. No, they are sore losers. They have that "if I can't have you, nobody can" mentality where they will burn your car, break into your house, hold you at knife point or gunpoint and generally just make your life a living hell because they don't get what they want.

At least, that's kinda how it seems to me...
Another parallel: now that they've lost their position of absolute power and might have to answer for the shit they've done, they're all about bipartisanship. Mitch McConnell wrote a sad op-ed, "Will Dems work with us, or simply put partisan politics ahead of the country?", and Democrats immediately began pointing out his hypocrisy.

So, like the jealous ex-boyfriend who beat up the girlfriend, spent the night in jail, and is now all about making nice. "C'mon, just tell the cops I didn't hit you so we can put this behind us!"

Fuck that, and fuck the Turtle. Here's the only thing that needs to be said in response to his whiny article: "MERRICK. FUCKING. GARLAND."
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Old 11-14-2018, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
Oooh. So you're thinking he's being polite with people he shouldn't be polite with.

Well, thing is, it really is not always racist. For many people the discomfort is the same whenever someone who's not "the expected type" is found wherever. We often label these reactions racism (where "race" may refer to ancestry or to cultural identification) or sexism, but it's actually a different kind of issue. It's not a matter of "men shouldn't be X" or "black people shouldn't be X" as one of "this person doesn't fit my mental image of what an X should look like"; if their mental image doesn't include the possibility of tats, a person with tats would produce the same negative reaction despite otherwise fitting the mental image. That's why seeing more of these "unexpected people" in whatever place they were unexpected lowers the rejection: it creates familiarity, the mental image gets redefined and widened.
No, he's justifying and excusing racism.

If you think that "men shouldn't be X", then you are sexist, if you think that "black people shouldn't be X", then you are a racist. If a person doesn't fit your mental image of what X should look like, and the reason for that is due to race or gender or sexual orientation or religion or national origin or any other characteristic that does not pertain to the job at hand, but only to what your "expected type" is, then you are a bigot against them. Always.

Now, does that mean that you are a bad person? Not necessarily. Most bigotry is based on ignorance, rather than malice. If you can't imagine a black person as president, you are an ignorant racist. If you can't stand the idea of a black person as president, then you are a malicious racist.

The ignorant racist *can* be cured, but they cannot be cured by coddling, they cannot be cured by telling them that their fears are understandable, as that just reinforces them. This is what Bernie did. He validated their fears and concerns about supporting a person solely due to the melanin content in his skin.

The malicious racists do tend to find cover among the ignorant, and when you point out the racist who spews hate, he gets the ignorant person standing next to him to take offense.
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Old 11-15-2018, 03:37 AM
madmonk28 madmonk28 is offline
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I think the pandering and coddling of white racism is a contributing factor to how we got Trump. Sanders’ generation was opposed to racism, up to a point. They helped make obvious and extreme racism less socially acceptable, but then called it a day.
  #46  
Old 11-15-2018, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
I think the pandering and coddling of white racism is a contributing factor to how we got Trump. Sanders’ generation was opposed to racism, up to a point. They helped make obvious and extreme racism less socially acceptable, but then called it a day.
Amen. Then using the fact he marched once in the fucking 60s as if that makes him some civil rights champion is beyond offensive. I gave to Save the Whales once in 1990, but it doesn't make me a member of Green Peace. Yeah, then he moved to lily white Vermont and has consistently written off "identity politics". He is the exact type of person to soft pedal bigotry and try to put a nice spin on it. Not only isn't he helping, his rhetoric actively undermines progress and i wish people would stop giving him a pass.
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Old 11-15-2018, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
The issue is that we see someone of our own race as "like us" more than someone of the same class, occupation, nationality, geographical region, gender, religion, sports fandom, educational background, handedness, feelings about pineapple on pizza, etc. We see a person different from us in every single way except skin tone as more "like us" than someone with whom we share everything except skin tone. That's utterly arbitrary. That was an invention, designed to justify race-based slavery at a time when the potential profits from such were simply overwhelming.
That was back when slavery was legal and considered an industry. Circumstances are different now, but it's still impossible to force people to dispel their innate preferences for their own race. If you continue to hold the racist rubber stamp over anybody who dares to criticize a political figure who happens to be a different race from their own, you'll only build more resentment. Remember MLK's dream that no one will be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character? You risk equating the two.
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:33 AM
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The GOP has been pandering to white nationalists since the Southern Strategy. What's changed is that now, it's all the party is about. It's not about fiscal responsibility, it's not about small government. It is about white nationalism. I know I sound like a broken record, but look at what they did in Georgia: they used their control over the state to disenfranchise black voters and hold a sham election. If this was happening somewhere overseas, our state department would be condemning it. Trumpism is based on the realization that white America is losing its grip on power and deciding that they will not go quietly.
I don't think that is true. Its also about making the obscenely rich even richer. The tax cuts weren't about white nationalism.
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:46 AM
madmonk28 madmonk28 is offline
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I don't think that is true. Its also about making the obscenely rich even richer. The tax cuts weren't about white nationalism.
True, but that’s almost a remnant at this point. They’re still pillaging, but there is no one in the party interested in actually governing.
  #50  
Old 11-15-2018, 01:43 PM
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wrong thread

Last edited by Dangerosa; 11-15-2018 at 01:43 PM.
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