Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-02-2018, 04:50 PM
nelliebly nelliebly is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 929
Cleveland radio station bans Christmas song

I admit when I saw the headline, I was fervently hoping it was "Gramma Got Ron Over by a Reindeer" or "Christmas Shoes." This one never occurred to me. Interesting, especially the comment by the woman who apparently thinks being "sensitive" is a character flaw.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/01/us/ba...rnd/index.html
  #2  
Old 12-02-2018, 04:55 PM
Telemark's Avatar
Telemark Telemark is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Again, Titletown
Posts: 21,657
There's a long thread (in Cafe Society?) about people's problems with that song.
  #3  
Old 12-02-2018, 04:59 PM
Happy Lendervedder's Avatar
Happy Lendervedder Happy Lendervedder is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Michigan
Posts: 14,439
It's one of those songs where delivery is everything. Don't want the woman sounding scared or angry, and you don't want the dude sounding creepy. Dean Martin nailed the guy's part, imo.
  #4  
Old 12-02-2018, 06:39 PM
jaycat jaycat is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,034
Since when is that a Christmas song?
  #5  
Old 12-02-2018, 06:51 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 20,669
Having actually read the lyrics just now, I'm surprised its only being banned now.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #6  
Old 12-02-2018, 07:20 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: the extreme center
Posts: 30,479
Hadn't associated that song with Xmas. It didn't come to mind as a candidate for banning.

Now I can see PETA getting pissed off about this one.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 12-02-2018 at 07:20 PM.
  #7  
Old 12-02-2018, 08:56 PM
River Hippie River Hippie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.E. Indiana, USA
Posts: 5,226
I'm not sure but I'm thinking the lyric includes "what's in this drink?" That's creepy enough in today's (post Cosby) world.
  #8  
Old 12-02-2018, 09:05 PM
XOldiesJock XOldiesJock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 43
Over the years I have played this song on the radio many times by many different artists. The most charming version was by Dean Martin. The worst was by KD Lang and Barry Manilow, followed by Rod Stewart and Dolly Parton. (I don't even want to think about either of those pairings.)

It was intended as a wry song about flirtation, and back in the time it was written, it could be taken in that conext. The most bothersome line is "Say what's in this drink," which suggests something quite different now than it did in the 1940s. That was often a throwaway line in many a motion picture, said as a joke. Nowadays, it has a sinister connotation. The song hasn't changed. Times have. We have.

For my part, I've always thought it was somewhat creepy, and had I been putting together a Christmas-y playlist at a radio station, I would have quietly taken it out of rotation years ago. The station in Cleveland made a big deal about doing so, probably for the sole purpose of hyping their "family-friendly" holiday music format. I doubt anyone will miss it.
  #9  
Old 12-02-2018, 09:12 PM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 24,238
Fantastic news! Now there's more room for songs from A Blowfly Christmas!

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 12-02-2018 at 09:13 PM.
  #10  
Old 12-02-2018, 09:21 PM
TSBG TSBG is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,290
I loathe this song, and it mystifies me why my wife, who is as feminist and #MeToo as anyone, loves it. Even if "what's in that drink" is intended as a joke, the male in the song is clearly trying to get the woman drunk for purposes of compelling sex, and the song as a whole reflects the mindset that no doesn't mean no.

Of course it's an artifact of its time, but we shouldn't suspend our critical faculties because it's old.
  #11  
Old 12-02-2018, 09:45 PM
Beckdawrek's Avatar
Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: So.Ark ?
Posts: 10,964
I always thought it was kinda cute. But, yeah we've moved on.
Now it's time to get rid of a few more. Top on my list is 'Gramma got run over' and anything sang by chipmunks.
  #12  
Old 12-02-2018, 09:49 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Displaced
Posts: 15,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSBG View Post
I loathe this song, and it mystifies me why my wife, who is as feminist and #MeToo as anyone, loves it. Even if "what's in that drink" is intended as a joke, the male in the song is clearly trying to get the woman drunk for purposes of compelling sex, and the song as a whole reflects the mindset that no doesn't mean no.

Of course it's an artifact of its time, but we shouldn't suspend our critical faculties because it's old.
In the above-mentioned thread the participants go at length on how when properly performed, what to seems to you "clearly ... for purposes of compelling..." is interpreted as an example of the wordplay used at the time to give the lady plausible deniability and save face. Mrs. TSBG probably "gets it" from that POV.
  #13  
Old 12-02-2018, 10:45 PM
Gary T Gary T is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: KCMO
Posts: 11,300
Quote:
Originally Posted by River Hippie View Post
I'm not sure but I'm thinking the lyric includes "what's in this drink?" That's creepy enough in today's (post Cosby) world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XOldiesJock View Post
The most bothersome line is "Say what's in this drink," which suggests something quite different now than it did in the 1940s. That was often a throwaway line in many a motion picture, said as a joke. Nowadays, it has a sinister connotation. The song hasn't changed. Times have. We have.
Unfortunately, nowadays the line leads one's thinking toward date-rape drugs, which weren't even on the radar when the song was written. Still, in real life today no one's going to actually ask that question – a would-be rapist won't answer truthfully, and if there's truly suspicion the recipient will not drink it regardless. It's a red herring that prevents some folks from seeing the song as the innocent depiction of mixed emotions that it's meant to be.
  #14  
Old 12-02-2018, 11:04 PM
Gary T Gary T is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: KCMO
Posts: 11,300
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSBG View Post
Even if "what's in that drink" is intended as a joke, the male in the song is clearly trying to get the woman drunk for purposes of compelling sex...
No he isn't, and frankly that's a ridiculous assertion. SHE is the one who asks for the drink, and there's nothing in the song that gives even the slightest hint that he is attempting to ply her with booze.

Quote:
...the song as a whole reflects the mindset that no doesn't mean no.
There's a tiny bit more to this objection, but still...

She keeps suggesting stalling tactics (a half a drink more, a cigarette more), gives all kinds of reasons (related to societal expectations) why she should go but never says or even remotely implies that she WANTS to go, and rather clearly shows that even when she says "the answer is no" her heart's not in it.
  #15  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:40 AM
UnwittingAmericans UnwittingAmericans is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 111
Yes, and when he says "if you caught pneumonia and died" he's clearly threatening to spray pneumococcus down her throat.

https://twitter.com/JenKirkman/statu...rc=twsrc%5Etfw
  #16  
Old 12-03-2018, 10:38 AM
ZipperJJ's Avatar
ZipperJJ ZipperJJ is offline
Just Lovely and Delicious
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 24,854
This is local to me and as you can imagine, people are losing their shit about it online. I was happy when my mom brought it up and her reaction was "I'm glad they got rid of it, it does seem a little creepy to me." Much different than my dad's reaction of "DID YOU HEAR THEY BANNED THAT SONG FROM THE RADIO?!"

Anyway, many of us are skeptical that it's just a publicity stunt by the station. They could have stopped playing it and I guarantee no one would have noticed. But now they've publicized the fact and suddenly I am remembering that WDOK is a radio station again (personally I've always listened to WMJI at Christmas because they're 24/7 Christmas as well.)
  #17  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:01 PM
XOldiesJock XOldiesJock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZipperJJ View Post
This is local to me and as you can imagine, people are losing their shit about it online. I was happy when my mom brought it up and her reaction was "I'm glad they got rid of it, it does seem a little creepy to me." Much different than my dad's reaction of "DID YOU HEAR THEY BANNED THAT SONG FROM THE RADIO?!"

Anyway, many of us are skeptical that it's just a publicity stunt by the station. They could have stopped playing it and I guarantee no one would have noticed. But now they've publicized the fact and suddenly I am remembering that WDOK is a radio station again (personally I've always listened to WMJI at Christmas because they're 24/7 Christmas as well.)
When there are two or more stations in a city vying for the crown of "THEE Christmas Music Station," competition can be fierce. A station can double its usual ratings (and rates) with a good showing. WDOK's target audience is women, roughly 25-54. (Note to your Dad: They don't much care what he thinks, as your Mom probably controls the radio at home and in the car, and makes most household buying decisions.) WDOK played this beautifully. It's my understanding they took a poll about the song on their web page and/or Facebook page. However the poll turns out, they win, as they have positioned themselves as the station that is sensitive to the feelings and opinions of their intended audience. The publicity this received is priceless.

I toiled too long in the radio busines to take many shows of altruism seriously, especially the way the business is today. As Hunter S. Thompson once said: "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
  #18  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:07 PM
Jasmine Jasmine is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,574
It was never anywhere near being one of my favorites, anyway, so I don't really care.
  #19  
Old 12-03-2018, 06:14 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 67,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary T View Post
Unfortunately, nowadays the line leads one's thinking toward date-rape drugs, which weren't even on the radar when the song was written.
Au contraire.
  #20  
Old 12-03-2018, 06:55 PM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 11,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary T View Post
No he isn't, and frankly that's a ridiculous assertion. SHE is the one who asks for the drink, and there's nothing in the song that gives even the slightest hint that he is attempting to ply her with booze.
I think there's a strong hint that he's attempting to ply her with booze, depending on what you mean by "ply".

A "drink" in context is implied to be alcoholic. And "Say what's in this drink" is in implication that it's stronger than she expected.

I mostly agree with your analysis of the song, though. It's a playful flirtatious song in context, and I think it's sad that people focus on such a dark interpretation of it.
  #21  
Old 12-03-2018, 09:39 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 38,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSBG View Post
I loathe this song, and it mystifies me why my wife, who is as feminist and #MeToo as anyone, loves it. Even if "what's in that drink" is intended as a joke, the male in the song is clearly trying to get the woman drunk for purposes of compelling sex, and the song as a whole reflects the mindset that no doesn't mean no.

Of course it's an artifact of its time, but we shouldn't suspend our critical faculties because it's old.
No, you're very wrong:


http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/1...nmC0cxgN_09gMU
So let’s talk about that drink. I’ve discussed solely looking at the lyrics of the song and its internal universe so far, but I think that the line “Say, what’s in this drink” needs to be explained in a broader context to refute the idea that he spiked her drink. “Say, what’s in this drink” is a well-used phrase that was common in movies of the time period and isn’t really used in the same manner any longer. The phrase generally referred to someone saying or doing something they thought they wouldn’t in normal circumstances; it’s a nod to the idea that alcohol is “making” them do something unusual. But the joke is almost always that there is nothing in the drink. The drink is the excuse. The drink is the shield someone gets to hold up in front of them to protect from criticism. And it’s not just used in these sort of romantic situations. I’ve heard it in many investigation type scenes where the stoolpigeon character is giving up bits of information they’re supposed to be protecting, in screwball comedies where someone is making a fool of themselves, and, yes, in romantic movies where someone is experiencing feelings they are not supposed to have.
  #22  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:09 AM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NY but not NYC
Posts: 30,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
Au contraire.
Nothing in that article indicates that it was ever thought of or associated with a date rate drug.

The Mickey Finn was to knock someone out, true. As the Wiki article says, drugs even older than that had that reputation. The target of the Mickey Finn was almost universally male, though, at least in all the many references I've seen over the years.

Alcohol itself is the primary date rape drug and always has been. Nevertheless, that truism doesn't apply here. I've always interpreted “Say, what’s in this drink” as "how strong did you make this drink?" That's how it was used contemporaneously. Giving someone a stronger drink than they expected would loosen them up to do things they wouldn't otherwise consider.

No matter. The one and only point to the song, the point that if you take it away nothing of the song is left, is that the woman wants to stay. And it's a given from the very start that she will stay. She says so.
Quote:
I ought to say no, no, no sir
At least I'm gonna say that I tried
It's more than a song about consent. It's a song about how female sexuality is equal to that of male sexuality. I find it insane that people today interpret it to mean the exact opposite of what it does.

Last edited by Exapno Mapcase; 12-04-2018 at 12:10 AM.
  #23  
Old 12-04-2018, 09:43 AM
Just Asking Questions Just Asking Questions is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,140
The station isn't any where near me, so I don't care.

And I find it insane that people don't allow for changes in the times. A LOT of offensive stuff used to be more mainstream, and we rightly have stopped using those things. The justification that "it used to mean this" doesn't acknowledge that we are no longer living in the past. "It" now means something else, and you have to accept that.
  #24  
Old 12-04-2018, 10:02 AM
Velocity Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 12,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
No, you're very wrong:


http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/1...nmC0cxgN_09gMU
So let’s talk about that drink. I’ve discussed solely looking at the lyrics of the song and its internal universe so far, but I think that the line “Say, what’s in this drink” needs to be explained in a broader context to refute the idea that he spiked her drink. “Say, what’s in this drink” is a well-used phrase that was common in movies of the time period and isn’t really used in the same manner any longer. The phrase generally referred to someone saying or doing something they thought they wouldn’t in normal circumstances; it’s a nod to the idea that alcohol is “making” them do something unusual. But the joke is almost always that there is nothing in the drink. The drink is the excuse. The drink is the shield someone gets to hold up in front of them to protect from criticism. And it’s not just used in these sort of romantic situations. I’ve heard it in many investigation type scenes where the stoolpigeon character is giving up bits of information they’re supposed to be protecting, in screwball comedies where someone is making a fool of themselves, and, yes, in romantic movies where someone is experiencing feelings they are not supposed to have.

This aside, were date-rape drugs already a known thing back in the 1940s?
  #25  
Old 12-04-2018, 10:43 AM
kayaker's Avatar
kayaker kayaker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 30,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
This aside, were date-rape drugs already a known thing back in the 1940s?
Being "slipped a mickey" was a thing, and dates back to 1915.

ETA: it was typically chloral hydrate back then

Last edited by kayaker; 12-04-2018 at 10:44 AM.
  #26  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:08 AM
Thudlow Boink's Avatar
Thudlow Boink Thudlow Boink is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Lincoln, IL
Posts: 25,862
From Bored Panda: Radio Bans ‘Baby It’s Cold Outside’ Over Claims It’s A Rape Song, English Teacher Explains Its Real Meaning
  #27  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:32 AM
RealityChuck's Avatar
RealityChuck RealityChuck is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Schenectady, NY, USA
Posts: 41,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSBG View Post
I loathe this song, and it mystifies me why my wife, who is as feminist and #MeToo as anyone, loves it. Even if "what's in that drink" is intended as a joke, the male in the song is clearly trying to get the woman drunk for purposes of compelling sex, and the song as a whole reflects the mindset that no doesn't mean no.

Of course it's an artifact of its time, but we shouldn't suspend our critical faculties because it's old.
I could accept your argument if you could point out one lyric where the woman indicates she wants to leave.

If you pay attention, all the excuses are how others would perceive her actions if she stayed.

The man doesn't try to get her drunk -- she's asks for another drink.

I really can't stay -- something you only say when you want to stay but obligations prevent you.
I gotta go away -- she's required to go; it's not her choice.
This evening has been So very nice -- clearly she enjoys the man's company.
My mother will start to worry -- her mother's expectations, not hers
My father will be pacing the floor -- her father's expectations, not hers
So really I'd better scurry -- According to society, she's required the leave. It's not her choice.
Well maybe just a half a drink more -- she willing asks for another drink.
The neighbors might think -- Worried about the neighbors, not what she wants.
Say what's in this drink? -- The answer to that question at the time was always "nothing." Admittedly, it takes on a new meaning now, but honi sont qui mal y pense.
I wish I knew how To break this spell -- She is definitely attracted to the man
I ought to say no, no, no sir -- Society says she ought to. It's not her decision.
At least I'm gonna say that I tried -- her excuse when people criticize her.
I really can't stay -- due to social norms.
...
I simply must go -- again, she's required to; It's not her decision.
The answer is no -- The answer that society requires. Not hers.
The welcome has been So nice and warm -- Again, she affirms she likes the man's company.
My sister will be suspicious
My brother will be there at the door
My maiden aunt's mind is vicious
-- all three lines talk about others' expectations and reactions, not what she want.
Well maybe just a cigarette more -- Another sign she's willing to stay.
I've got to get home -- I'm required to
Say lend me a comb? -- Another attempt to get a connection with the man (and something of a filler line)
You've really been grand, -- yet another sign she's attracted to the man.
But don't you see?
There's bound to be talk tomorrow
At least there will be plenty implied
-- again, how outside forces would react, not her.
I really can't stay -- covered before.

Baby it's cold outside -- sung in harmony, indicating that she's happy to stay.

Ultimately, the song has a feminist bent, saying that a woman who wants to spend the night with a man has every right to do so, no matter what her sexist society wants her to do. In this case, the man is providing her with excuses she can use when people question her choice.
  #28  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:41 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 58,405
"The answer is no".
No means what, again? At that point you stop-she is under no obligation to explain why she said it, and any presumption by you to assume that she means anything other than "no" should be kept to yourself, and should certainly not be acted upon.

"The answer that society requires. Not hers." What a load of crap.
  #29  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:47 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 58,405
From the Wiki about the song(foranyone claiming that this is secretly some kind of feminist manifesto):
Quote:
The lyrics in this duet are designed to be heard as a conversation between two people, identified as "Mouse" (usually female) and "Wolf" (usually male) on the printed score; they are at the wolf's home and the mouse decides it is time to go home, but the wolf flirtatiously invites the mouse to stay as it is late and "it's cold outside." The mouse states that he/she has enjoyed the time and agrees at one point to another drink, but the mouse also says "I ought to say no, no, no, sir" and tries to return home, worried what family and neighbors will think. Every line in the song features a statement from the mouse followed by a response from the wolf, which is musically known as a call and response song.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 12-04-2018 at 11:47 AM.
  #30  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:27 PM
XOldiesJock XOldiesJock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 43
Apropros of nothing, but I was in Big Lots yesterday and amongst the holiday tunes on the PA system was "Baby, It's Cold Outside," but in this version, it's the man who thinks he should be leaving and the woman is the supposed aggressor. It was an interesting twist but not so complimentary to the woman he's saying "no" to! I gather this role-reversal version has been recorded by several people in recent years.
  #31  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:34 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 58,405
If there is a comparison to be made, one might go for something popularized in the movie Glengary Glen Ross-ABC(Always Be Closing). It doesn't matter what the client/victim wants or says, you press on until the sale is made.
  #32  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:40 PM
Jophiel's Avatar
Jophiel Jophiel is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Chicago suburbia
Posts: 18,537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
The answer that society requires. Not hers." What a load of crap.
Aside from her then saying "Maybe just a cigarette more..."

Hard to get offended unless you're trying.

The Glengarry Glen Ross comparison doesn't wash because I've seen Glengarry Glen Ross and I've heard the song and the demeanor of the woman is completely different. The sad sack in the bar isn't lightly flirting with Pacino.
  #33  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:48 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 58,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
Aside from her then saying "Maybe just a cigarette more..."

Hard to get offended unless you're trying.

The Glengarry Glen Ross comparison doesn't wash because I've seen Glengarry Glen Ross and I've heard the song and the demeanor of the woman is completely different. The sad sack in the bar isn't lightly flirting with Pacino.
So no doesn't mean no, as long as you keep weakening her resolve?
  #34  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:50 PM
madmonk28 madmonk28 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 11,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
The station isn't any where near me, so I don't care.

And I find it insane that people don't allow for changes in the times. A LOT of offensive stuff used to be more mainstream, and we rightly have stopped using those things. The justification that "it used to mean this" doesn't acknowledge that we are no longer living in the past. "It" now means something else, and you have to accept that.
Exactly this.

I lived in Russia in the 90s after the fall of the Soviet Union. A lot of older Russians were really having a hard time with the cultural shifts (not surprisingly). Some of the old songs, holidays and movies were now being seen in a new light, especially when the experiences and opinions of other people in the Soviet Union besides Russians were taken in to account and older Russians were experiencing the same kind of cultural whiplash that older whites in America are coming to grips with. Culture will continue to change and getting upset about that won't accomplish anything.

Last edited by madmonk28; 12-04-2018 at 12:51 PM.
  #35  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:51 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 9,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycat View Post
Since when is that a Christmas song?
Since sometime in the late 1940s.

"Baby, It's Cold Outside" is a popular song written by Frank Loesser in 1944. It is a call and response duet in which a host, usually performed by a male voice, tries to convince a guest, usually performed by a female voice, that she should stay the evening because the weather is cold and the trip home would be difficult. While the lyrics make no mention of any holiday, it is popularly regarded as a Christmas song due to its winter theme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby,_It%27s_Cold_Outside
  #36  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:54 PM
Jophiel's Avatar
Jophiel Jophiel is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Chicago suburbia
Posts: 18,537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
So no doesn't mean no, as long as you keep weakening her resolve?
You'd have to ask the woman who said "no" about staying and then "changed" her mind. The whole point is that he didn't masterfully weaken her resolve, she had never actually resolved to leave. He also never stopped her from leaving and she made no motions to leave between saying "the answer is no" and saying that she was staying.

Last edited by Jophiel; 12-04-2018 at 12:56 PM.
  #37  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:54 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 9,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
So no doesn't mean no, as long as you keep weakening her resolve?
She is free to leave at any time. No one is forcing her to stay. It's her choice that she has stayed as long as she has. It's her choice if she decides to leave.

Trying to convince someone to stay is not rape, or even rapey.
  #38  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:58 PM
Jophiel's Avatar
Jophiel Jophiel is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Chicago suburbia
Posts: 18,537
She says the answer is no, he says it's nice that she dropped by, kisses her (goodbye? -- she doesn't object) and she decides to stay for another cigarette.

Hardly a field study in lost autonomy.
  #39  
Old 12-04-2018, 01:14 PM
dtilque dtilque is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: My own private Nogero
Posts: 6,288
Was anyone else disappointed that the last word in the subject line of the thread wasn't plural?

Some above asked how this song is a Christmas song. The answer is that it's one in the same way Jingle Bells, Frosty the Snowman and Walking in a Winter Wonderland are. They aren't really, they're just songs about winter. But those all get co-opted by Christmas. Similarly, Die Hard is a Christmas movie, since it takes place on Christmas Eve.
  #40  
Old 12-04-2018, 01:43 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 37,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorhinge View Post
She is free to leave at any time. No one is forcing her to stay. It's her choice that she has stayed as long as she has. It's her choice if she decides to leave.

Trying to convince someone to stay is not rape, or even rapey.
Neither is trying to talk someone into having sex with you, which is what the song is about.

Sometimes, as in the song, women like to be pursued. Sometimes, as in the song, they mean "maybe I can be talked into it." There is a difference between seduction, and rape.

Regards,
Shodan
  #41  
Old 12-04-2018, 02:28 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NY but not NYC
Posts: 30,590
Reality Chuck parses the lyrics correctly. The song is about society and the prejudicial attitudes toward unmarried sex in those days and the double standard applied to men and women.

The woman in the song is defying the rules. It's a rock song a generation early. The performers who do the song recognize the equality between the man and women, He is never Satan tempting the poor virgin. She is strong and knows her wants and needs are the same as his.

People misinterpret songs all the time. Sting's "Every Breath You Take" is about a stalker but people made it into a wedding song. Same with REM's "The One I Love," which is about a guy dumping a woman but all people hear is the title.

The reverse is happening here. The song is ambiguous only if you wrench it out of context. Otherwise it is crystal clear. It's not meant to be representative of every man-woman interaction. In this one time and place the woman wants to get laid and is weighing whether society's disapproval is going to overwhelm that.

Holy smoke, there's even a Monty Python reference to make:

Quote:
It's a fair cop, but society's to blame.
If Monty Python doesn't convince you, I give up.
  #42  
Old 12-04-2018, 02:34 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 37,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
If Monty Python doesn't convince you, I give up.
Can you direct me to the railway station?

Regards,
Shodan Gambolputty de von Ausfern- schplenden- schlitter- crasscrenbon- fried- digger- dingle- dangle- dongle- dungle- burstein- von- knacker- thrasher- apple- banger- horowitz- ticolensic- grander- knotty- spelltinkle- grandlich- grumblemeyer- spelterwasser- kurstlich- himbleeisen- bahnwagen- gutenabend- bitte- ein- nürnburger- bratwustle- gerspurten- mitz- weimache- luber- hundsfut- gumberaber- shönedanker- kalbsfleisch- mittler- aucher von Hautkopft of Ulm
  #43  
Old 12-04-2018, 02:42 PM
cochrane cochrane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Nekkid Pueblo
Posts: 20,929
Quote:
Originally Posted by XOldiesJock View Post
Apropros of nothing, but I was in Big Lots yesterday and amongst the holiday tunes on the PA system was "Baby, It's Cold Outside," but in this version, it's the man who thinks he should be leaving and the woman is the supposed aggressor. It was an interesting twist but not so complimentary to the woman he's saying "no" to! I gather this role-reversal version has been recorded by several people in recent years.
The Bored Panda site has both versions, the first by Ricardo Montalban and Esther Williams, and the role-reversal by Betty Garrett and Red Skelton.

  #44  
Old 12-04-2018, 03:16 PM
Eonwe's Avatar
Eonwe Eonwe is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Burlington VT
Posts: 8,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by RealityChuck View Post
Ultimately, the song has a feminist bent, saying that a woman who wants to spend the night with a man has every right to do so, no matter what her sexist society wants her to do. In this case, the man is providing her with excuses she can use when people question her choice.
I think that it's possible to view this song under a few different lenses, but I find the idea that it's actually a feminist song to be a little . . . contrived and convenient.

The song doesn't "say" what you think, nor is it "about" sexual double standards, as Exapno Mapcase says.

You can apply criticism to explore those ideas, but the song is just as much about rape culture as it is about feminist liberation. One critical lens doesn't discount the other.

If I were describing what the song is about, I'd say that it's a song about a sexually charged flirtation between two people, who communicate in the gendered vernacular of their time (1940s).
  #45  
Old 12-04-2018, 03:20 PM
Barkis is Willin' Barkis is Willin' is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,223
Just heard this song in my office building lobby, pretty sure it was the Idina Menzel and Michael Bublé version. My office building loves Michael Bublé. Anyway, I don't care one way or the other, but why couldn't this station just stop playing without all the fanfare? Probably nobody would care or notice if they just didn't play it.
  #46  
Old 12-04-2018, 03:27 PM
RickJay RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 40,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSBG View Post
I loathe this song, and it mystifies me why my wife, who is as feminist and #MeToo as anyone, loves it. Even if "what's in that drink" is intended as a joke, the male in the song is clearly trying to get the woman drunk for purposes of compelling sex, and the song as a whole reflects the mindset that no doesn't mean no.
That's entirely wrong. That is not what that line meant at all.

The song is clearly, unambiguously about a woman who one hundred percent wants to stay, but a prudish society doesn't want her to make her own decisions. Her boyfriend's trying to give her an excuse to stay, not force her to.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #47  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:43 PM
ftg's Avatar
ftg ftg is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Not the PNW :-(
Posts: 18,108
Another vote for the woman is mainly concerned about what others think. If you keep bringing this up over and over your main concern isn't that you don't want to stay. But sometimes people don't want to give the real reason as a primary reason which leads to confusion and problems. She still has the opportunity to de-confuse things. And I do not equate staying with agreeing to have sex at all.

Note: I routinely ask all the time, when someone offers me a beverage, "What's in this?" There's a lot of things I don't want to consume: alcohol, sugar, caffeine, etc.

It's a perfectly reasonable question to ask with no implications whatsoever.

(I am amazed by people who are surprised when I don't take a glass of wine when offered. Have they never met a non-drinker before?)
  #48  
Old 12-04-2018, 07:09 PM
Just Asking Questions Just Asking Questions is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
The song is clearly, unambiguously about a woman who one hundred percent wants to stay, but a prudish society doesn't want her to make her own decisions. Her boyfriend's trying to give her an excuse to stay, not force her to.
But we don't live in that prudish society anymore. A woman can just stay or not stay all she wants and (almost) no one cares. So when a modern singer sings it, it sends the wrong message.


And while we're on the subject, Santa Baby sucks, by anyone.
  #49  
Old 12-04-2018, 08:41 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 38,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
But we don't live in that prudish society anymore. A woman can just stay or not stay all she wants and (almost) no one cares. So when a modern singer sings it, it sends the wrong message.


And while we're on the subject, Santa Baby sucks, by anyone.

So then in HAVE YOURSELF A MERRY LITTLE CHRISTMAS:

"Have yourself a merry little Christmas

Let the yuletide be gay
" we must now consider the singer is talking about having a homosexual Christmas?

Not by Eartha Kitt.

But yeah, many are just plain bad.
  #50  
Old 12-04-2018, 09:01 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Displaced
Posts: 15,517
That the station announced the discontinuation of the track does sound like a bit of promotional virtue-signaling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cochrane View Post
The Bored Panda site has both versions, the first by Ricardo Montalban and Esther Williams.
For some reason that juxtaposition of names causes a bit of disturbance...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
She says the answer is no, he says it's nice that she dropped by, kisses her (goodbye? -- she doesn't object) and she decides to stay for another cigarette.

Hardly a field study in lost autonomy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
But we don't live in that prudish society anymore. A woman can just stay or not stay all she wants and (almost) no one cares. So when a modern singer sings it, it sends the wrong message.
So we can only appreciate it as social archaeology archival material, an exapmle of What We Now Know Is Wrong?

I mean, sure, I've been advocating no game-playing, no "interpreting the signals", go ahead and tell me what you want, interaction for decades. But hey, if some people prefer it that way...

Ad BTW I still enjoy the Bennett/Gaga advertisement version, and that throws in an added disruptive factor of the major age difference. I suppose it will have to be a "guilty pleasure."

Last edited by JRDelirious; 12-04-2018 at 09:04 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:01 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017