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  #1  
Old 12-02-2018, 07:11 PM
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Ridculous, hypocritical double standards here

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Originally Posted by engineer_comp_geek View Post
Moderator Note



The topic of this thread is misogyny, not misandry. If you want to discuss misandry, do so in another thread.

Do not post in this thread again.
Misogyny and misandry, just like circumcision and FGM, are the same thing. Making it so only certain people can discuss being on the recieving end of them is divisive, dangerous nonsense. I would hope this note will be rescinded, and people can freely discuss these issues, rather than a certain group being elevated to special victim status.
  #2  
Old 12-02-2018, 07:19 PM
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Need context. Provide link.
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Old 12-02-2018, 07:28 PM
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Need context. Provide link.
The little blue arrow in the quote takes you to the thread.

Just postersplaining.
  #4  
Old 12-02-2018, 07:42 PM
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You aren't being prevented from discussing misandry or circumcision or anything else you want. What you are being prevented from is derailing threads about misogyny and female genital mutilation into your topics.

It's very, very simple, really. Just start your own thread. That's all it takes to have a discussion on pretty much any topic, and play victim all you want.
  #5  
Old 12-02-2018, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
Misogyny and misandry . . . are the same thing.
They’re only the “same thing” in a completely abstract, de-contextualized, and de-historicized way. In the real world—not some fantasy world—woman have faced misogyny through subjugation, repression and control in such a glaringly obviously disproportionate way compared to the misandry that man face, that to say they’re the “same thing” can only be disingenuous—a transparent, ham-fisted, sophistic conceit.
  #6  
Old 12-02-2018, 08:25 PM
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Wait, so men are the same thing as women?
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Old 12-02-2018, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
I would hope this note will be rescinded, and people can freely discuss these issues, rather than a certain group being elevated to special victim status.
(emphasis added)

Please tell me that this is a subtle bit of self-deprecating irony, steophan.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 12-02-2018 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 12-02-2018, 08:29 PM
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I want to thank the OP for showing that the problem decribed in the misogyny thread is all too real.
  #9  
Old 12-02-2018, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
Misogyny and misandry, just like circumcision and FGM, are the same thing. Making it so only certain people can discuss being on the recieving end of them is divisive, dangerous nonsense. I would hope this note will be rescinded, and people can freely discuss these issues, rather than a certain group being elevated to special victim status.
Nonsense. Circumcision removes a teeny, tiny band of skin. Some people with other issues in their lives blame it's removal as an infant for all their problems. Female genital mutilation completely removes an entire organ.

Getting one tiny scrap of mostly useless skin is not the same as a full penis-and-balls-ectomy.

There is no comparison between the two.
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
Nonsense. Circumcision removes a teeny, tiny band of skin. Some people with other issues in their lives blame it's removal as an infant for all their problems. Female genital mutilation completely removes an entire organ.

Getting one tiny scrap of mostly useless skin is not the same as a full penis-and-balls-ectomy.

There is no comparison between the two.
That's what I've been saying. But based on precedent Steophan will just ignore you.
  #11  
Old 12-02-2018, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
Female genital mutilation completely removes an entire organ.
Nope. In a small minority of cases, it removes the exterior part of the clitoris, but mostly it removes part or all of the clitoral hood.

None of which changes the fact that mutilating infants is wrong, regardless of gender or reason, and making this a gendered issue is unnecessary, and as the threads on it have shown, counterproductive.

If something is wrong, it's wrong, regardless of the gender or other characteristics of the victim. If men, or any other group, come into a discussion and say that this thing happens to them as well, the correct response is to say that it is also wrong when it happens to them, and should be stopped for everyone. Not to try to argue who's suffering is worse, and ultimately lose the argument because you are being divided.

The most obvious example of this recently is Black Lives Matter. The far right must fucking love them, dividing people who would otherwise be willing to stand together as they have far more similarities than differences. Reminds me of the People's Front of Judea...

If you try to fight sexism, racism, or any other problem by becoming a mirror image of what you hate, you've already lost. You will, sadly, see that in a couple of years when Trump wins another election.
  #12  
Old 12-02-2018, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
Nope. In a small minority of cases, it removes the exterior part of the clitoris, but mostly it removes part or all of the clitoral hood.

None of which changes the fact that mutilating infants is wrong, regardless of gender or reason, and making this a gendered issue is unnecessary, and as the threads on it have shown, counterproductive.

....
I haven't spent much time at all in threads about these topics. Much of the reason is the knowledge of what will happen to any thread on the subject of female genital mutilation. The insistence on the part of some men here on hijacking threads about female genital mutilation to complain about male circumcision too...well, it strikes me as whiny, attention-seeking, hysterical, and in some cases downright unhinged, and I'm really tired of it, and we can do better, and I applaud any moderator move that limits this (mis)behavior.
  #13  
Old 12-02-2018, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
Nope. In a small minority of cases, it removes the exterior part of the clitoris, but mostly it removes part or all of the clitoral hood.

None of which changes the fact that mutilating infants is wrong, regardless of gender or reason, and making this a gendered issue is unnecessary, and as the threads on it have shown, counterproductive.

If something is wrong, it's wrong, regardless of the gender or other characteristics of the victim. If men, or any other group, come into a discussion and say that this thing happens to them as well, the correct response is to say that it is also wrong when it happens to them, and should be stopped for everyone. Not to try to argue who's suffering is worse, and ultimately lose the argument because you are being divided.

The most obvious example of this recently is Black Lives Matter. The far right must fucking love them, dividing people who would otherwise be willing to stand together as they have far more similarities than differences. Reminds me of the People's Front of Judea...

If you try to fight sexism, racism, or any other problem by becoming a mirror image of what you hate, you've already lost. You will, sadly, see that in a couple of years when Trump wins another election.
Two questions for you:
1) Why not just start your own thread on the subject then?
2) Why poison your own thread here with the Trump rant? Your politicizing an ATMB thread.
  #14  
Old 12-02-2018, 10:57 PM
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I'm not sure why the insistence on referring to infant genital mutilation. The girls in the case that spurred that Pit thread were 7 years old. Hardly infants. Typically the age when done is between 0 and 15 years- it's sometimes done in infancy, but the average I've seen for victims of FGM is ten. There's debate about what type those girls were subjected to; it's true that only about 10% worldwide is infibulation. But partial or total removal of the clitoris is not uncommon.

Last edited by raventhief; 12-02-2018 at 10:59 PM.
  #15  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
Nonsense. Circumcision removes a teeny, tiny band of skin. Some people with other issues in their lives blame it's removal as an infant for all their problems. Female genital mutilation completely removes an entire organ.

Getting one tiny scrap of mostly useless skin is not the same as a full penis-and-balls-ectomy.

There is no comparison between the two.
That's simply not true. The foreskin is composed of unique tissue found nowhere else on the body.

Quote:
The following anatomy is amputated with circumcision:

The Taylor “ridged band” (sometimes called the “frenar band”), the primary erogenous zone of the male body.

This unique, highly specialized and exquisitely sensitive structure is equipped with soft ridges designed by nature to stimulate the female’s inner labia and G-spot during intercourse

The frenulum, the highly erogenous V-shaped tethering structure on the underside of the head of the penis
20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings of several types, which can feel slight variations in pressure and stretching, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations in texture
Thousands of coiled fine-touch receptors called Meissner’s corpuscles, which are also found in the fingertips
  #16  
Old 12-03-2018, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
Nope. In a small minority of cases, it removes the exterior part of the clitoris, but mostly it removes part or all of the clitoral hood.
That is simply incorrect.
  #17  
Old 12-03-2018, 06:49 AM
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Misogyny and misandry[...] are the same thing.
No. Not even close.

The only thing wrong with that note was that it wasn't a warning.
  #18  
Old 12-03-2018, 07:49 AM
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The OP is wildly incorrect -- misogyny and misandry are extremely different. One has basically ruled in policy and practice, in varying forms and degrees, around the world for millenia, and the other has had very little influence outside marginalized extremists, even recently.
  #19  
Old 12-03-2018, 12:33 PM
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That's simply not true. The foreskin is composed of unique tissue found nowhere else on the body.
You're quoting a site made by and possibly for crazy people.

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Originally Posted by Your link
Foregen’s goal is to heal the physical detriment that that is inherent to circumcision. Research undeniably demonstrates the functional and sensory losses to the penis when circumcised, as well as the potential for psychological damage for those on whom such surgery was performed. Fortunately, regenerative medical techniques now offer a greater possibility than ever to regrow human tissue, especially dermal tissue, lost in prior trauma. However, those techniques have not yet been applied to those who have been circumcised and no longer wish to be.

Foregen was founded to promote and arrange a clinical trial that would use regenerative techniques to regrow the tissue removed at circumcision. After dismissing many unsatisfactory proposals from research institutions, we have decided to conduct our own research and clinical trials. With the help of dedicated scientists, we will apply known regenerative techniques to the foreskin in order to restore normal penile function and sensitivity.
1) "Trauma"? I held my nephew during his bris and outside of a single surprised kind of yelp sound (I made the same sound when a Dr put a cold stethoscope against my back) and a few seconds of crying, he was fine. Based on my first-hand info, there can't be THAT much trauma, if any.

2) The fact that they can't find any university to do clinical trials for their magical potions is also problematic, dontcha think?

3) "restore normal penile function and sensitivity"? Seriously? Mine works just fine, thanks. If yours (in general, not your in specific) doesn't, I strongly doubt that the problem is the foreskin. And if the normal penis were any MORE sensitive, people would be literally passing out from orgasm. Also, how do you measure sensitivity? What objective tests are there?

And that's just from their front page. Their site is filled with both quackery and craziness.
  #20  
Old 12-03-2018, 12:45 PM
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[Moderating]
This thread is not the place to hash out the circumcision debate. Take that to any of the half dozen other threads on the topic, or start yet another.
[/Moderating]
  #21  
Old 12-03-2018, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
[Moderating]
This thread is not the place to hash out the circumcision debate. Take that to any of the half dozen other threads on the topic, or start yet another.
[/Moderating]
it is the perfect example of what happens to anything that gives any excuse for those parties to hijack with the crazy crankery of their obsessions and change anything touching on the female into let us talk about our lacking dicks.

Last edited by Ramira; 12-03-2018 at 12:52 PM.
  #22  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:59 PM
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I want to thank the OP for showing that the problem decribed in the misogyny thread is all too real.
Yep. Perfect example.
  #23  
Old 12-03-2018, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
[Moderating]
This thread is not the place to hash out the circumcision debate. Take that to any of the half dozen other threads on the topic, or start yet another.
[/Moderating]
Agreed--but while you're here, would you mind weighing in, even if it's just to say you're still thinking about how to handle this?
  #24  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
[Moderating]
This thread is not the place to hash out the circumcision debate. Take that to any of the half dozen other threads on the topic, or start yet another.
[/Moderating]
I will, of course follow your instructions, but isn’t discrediting a bad site a legit practice in ATMB?
  #25  
Old 12-03-2018, 05:47 PM
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I will, of course follow your instructions, but isn’t discrediting a bad site a legit practice in ATMB?
Sometimes, sure, if it's on topic. The topic of this ATMB thread is not, "Is circumcision a good thing or not?" As such, both cites arguing that circumcision is bad, and arguments rebutting those cites, are not appropriate here.
  #26  
Old 12-03-2018, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
Misogyny and misandry, just like circumcision and FGM, are the same thing. Making it so only certain people can discuss being on the recieving end of them is divisive, dangerous nonsense. I would hope this note will be rescinded, and people can freely discuss these issues, rather than a certain group being elevated to special victim status.
As has been pointed out, "Do not discuss this topic in this thread," is not the same as, "Do not discuss this topic on this board." If you want to discuss any of those topic, you are absolutely free to create a new thread for that purpose. While misogyny and misandry are both "the same thing" in that they are, broadly, about discrimination on the basis of gender, the actual expression of these concepts in society contains sufficient disparities that it is entirely possible to discuss one without reference to the other.
  #27  
Old 12-03-2018, 09:24 PM
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Nothing prevents OP from starting a thread whose premise is exactly his first sentence on this one, and where posts 11 and 15 are given as a supporting exposition for it. If the position of two posters here is that they will refuse to let pass any discussion on the related subject without turning it into a whataboutist argumentation, they can be admonished to not do it in the thread in question and to instead make one that litigates if there is or is not a difference and if that difference merits different treatment.
  #28  
Old 12-04-2018, 01:31 PM
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I want to thank the OP for showing that the problem decribed in the misogyny thread is all too real.
Is it? How many times are posters told "don't hijack this thread; if you want to talk about something, start a new thread". So the OP started a new thread, and still gets ripped and insulted for it?

If talking about circumcision in an FGM thread is a misogynistic hijack, is it a hijack to talk about FGM in a thread about double standards?
  #29  
Old 12-04-2018, 02:16 PM
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So the OP started a new thread, and still gets ripped and insulted for it?
...if the OP got insulted here then I would hope that you have reported those insults: because insults are not allowed in ATMB. And the OP got "ripped" because the claim "Misogyny and misandry are the same thing" is just not supportable. They are literally different things. They are different by definition. They are different in the way that each are treated in society. Nobody has been elevated to "special victim" status. The OP presented a very poor case for what they are arguing and the argument has been treated accordingly by people responding in this thread.
  #30  
Old 12-04-2018, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
Misogyny and misandry, just like circumcision and FGM, are the same thing.
Then there's no need to post anything about misandry or circumcision in a thread where people are talking about misogyny or female genital mutilation. According to you, the subjects are the same so they're already being discussed.
  #31  
Old 12-04-2018, 03:08 PM
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Is it? How many times are posters told "don't hijack this thread; if you want to talk about something, start a new thread". So the OP started a new thread, and still gets ripped and insulted for it?

If talking about circumcision in an FGM thread is a misogynistic hijack, is it a hijack to talk about FGM in a thread about double standards?
Well, the mod just said so, so yes, it is a hijack.

Heck, of course it's a hijack.

And anyone who can't tell the difference between misandry and misogyny is not living in the real world.
  #32  
Old 12-05-2018, 03:32 AM
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No. Not even close.

The only thing wrong with that note was that it wasn't a warning.
Cosigned. That behavior is indistinguishable from the behavior of someone intentionally trying to stir shit up. This thread indicates that Steophan does not intend to learn anything from that admonition. How much leniency does that deserve?
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  #33  
Old 12-05-2018, 10:52 AM
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When people try to claim that mutilating infants differs in morality based on sex, "stirring shit up" is an appropriate response. When people try to silence people because of gender or any other immutable characteristic, "stiring shit up" is an appropriate response.
  #34  
Old 12-05-2018, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
When people try to claim that mutilating infants differs in morality based on sex, "stirring shit up" is an appropriate response. When people try to silence people because of gender or any other immutable characteristic, "stiring shit up" is an appropriate response.
Start a thread on your thoughts about circumcision and don't spend any more time in the FGM threads. This shouldn't be too hard to understand. You'll get better results and not get on the nerves of the mods and many posters. As it is your thread, you could choose to focus on both issues if you want or stay off the FGM, stay off of it and request others do also. Spell that out in the Op if that is your desire.
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:12 AM
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Does he not understand because he doesn't want to understand, or because he's somehow incapable of understanding? Either way, if we're passing out topic bans, we seem to have a volunteer.
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  #36  
Old 12-05-2018, 11:17 AM
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While infant (male) circumcision may be something not desirable, the far worse thing going on is FGM, so if you really want to get rid of circumcision supporting anti FGM is a good start.
  #37  
Old 12-05-2018, 11:24 AM
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While infant (male) circumcision may be something not desirable, the far worse thing going on is FGM, so if you really want to get rid of circumcision supporting anti FGM is a good start.
Or just perhaps, countries that practice male circumcision but not FGM could ban that, then have a moral leg to stand on when pressuring others to ban FGM.

Someone in the UK or US protesting FGM is basically virtue signalling, as it's banned in those countries already, if it was ever legal which I doubt.

As for supporting anti-FGM, I've never knowingly spoken to, online or in person, with anyone who doesn't support it. There's no real debate over it being wrong.
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:27 AM
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Start a thread on your thoughts about circumcision and don't spend any more time in the FGM threads. This shouldn't be too hard to understand.
My problem is with the hypocrisy, so I started a thread about that. I've not (that I recall) posted in an FGM thread, the thread I was banned from posting in was a misogyny thread, and the ban was because I talked about hypocrisy, not circumcision.
  #39  
Old 12-05-2018, 11:28 AM
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Start a thread on your thoughts about circumcision and don't spend any more time in the FGM threads. This shouldn't be too hard to understand. You'll get better results and not get on the nerves of the mods and many posters. As it is your thread, you could choose to focus on both issues if you want or stay off the FGM, stay off of it and request others do also. Spell that out in the Op if that is your desire.
I'm not entirely sure why you're telling Steophan to start his own thread, in a thread he started.
  #40  
Old 12-05-2018, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
My problem is with the hypocrisy, so I started a thread about that. I've not (that I recall) posted in an FGM thread, the thread I was banned from posting in was a misogyny thread, and the ban was because I talked about hypocrisy, not circumcision.
You were apparently a distraction from the topic in the misogyny thread. Asking you & then ordering you to leave it was a reasonable response. You've been on this board for about 8 years according to your start date. None of this should be a big surprise.

Sorry about my confusion. You brought up the circumcision and FGM in this thread's opening post.
  #41  
Old 12-05-2018, 11:32 AM
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My problem is with the hypocrisy, so I started a thread about that. I've not (that I recall) posted in an FGM thread, the thread I was banned from posting in was a misogyny thread, and the ban was because I talked about hypocrisy, not circumcision.
Do you understand now that there is no hypocrisy, because misogyny and misandry are not magically equivalent?
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:32 AM
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I'm not entirely sure why you're telling Steophan to start his own thread, in a thread he started.
A thread on the subject he wanted to put into a different thread. This is a ATMB thread about the moderation of the board effectively.
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:37 AM
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Do you understand now that there is no hypocrisy, because misogyny and misandry are not magically equivalent?
I don't "understand" that, as it's not true. They are equivalent, they are treating people as lesser due to their gender, and that should be unacceptable.

Now, they may not be equally prevalent, or equally damaging on a societal level (although they are definitely equally damaging on a personal level), but deliberately reaching for one to counter the other is hugely hypocritical.
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
I don't "understand" that, as it's not true. They are equivalent, they are treating people as lesser due to their gender, and that should be unacceptable.

Now, they may not be equally prevalent, or equally damaging on a societal level (although they are definitely equally damaging on a personal level), but deliberately reaching for one to counter the other is hugely hypocritical.
So in the 1830's the racism of whites in the South against blacks was equally bad as the racism of blacks in the South against whites, because racism is racism and is always unacceptable, therefore discussing slavery in the South is hypocritical unless one also brings up the fact that the black slaves didn't like their white masters - or other white people - very much. Got it, thank you for fighting my ignorance!
  #45  
Old 12-05-2018, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
When people try to claim that mutilating infants differs in morality based on sex, "stirring shit up" is an appropriate response. When people try to silence people because of gender or any other immutable characteristic, "stiring shit up" is an appropriate response.
Why, it's like you're some sort of ...Warrior. Fighting for right -nay, Justice - in our little Society...

A WJS, if you will.

Although I think some people might have a different opinion as to whether your reason for stirring shit up is relevant when it's stirring things up to stir them up that's the problem....

Last edited by MrDibble; 12-05-2018 at 03:31 PM.
  #46  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Babale View Post
So in the 1830's the racism of whites in the South against blacks was equally bad as the racism of blacks in the South against whites, because racism is racism and is always unacceptable, therefore discussing slavery in the South is hypocritical unless one also brings up the fact that the black slaves didn't like their white masters - or other white people - very much. Got it, thank you for fighting my ignorance!
If ten times as many whites as blacks were being kept in slavery, and there was no argument that keeping blacks in slavery was wrong, and people kept talking about blacks being enslaved while not just ignoring but actively supporting the enslavement of whites, this would be a good analogy to circumcision.

As for racism in general, anyone who's a victim should be able to speak about it. Dividing people for the purpose of victimhood is what the racists, or sexists, or whatever want. Were I actually on the right, I'd be laughing my head off at the damage TERFs and SJWs, and BLM for that matter, are doing to the causes they supposedly represent. As it is, I can only sit in the middle, sadly shake my head, and wait for some semblance of sanity to appear from either side.
  #47  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Why, it's like you're some sort of ...Warrior. Fighting for right -nay, Justice - in our little Society...

A WJS, if you will.

Although I think some people might have a different opinion as to whether your reason for stirring shit up is relevant when it's stirring things up to stir them up that's the problem....
More of an Equality Rogue, I'd say.
  #48  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:12 PM
Babale Babale is offline
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
If ten times as many whites as blacks were being kept in slavery, and there was no argument that keeping blacks in slavery was wrong, and people kept talking about blacks being enslaved while not just ignoring but actively supporting the enslavement of whites, this would be a good analogy to circumcision.

As for racism in general, anyone who's a victim should be able to speak about it. Dividing people for the purpose of victimhood is what the racists, or sexists, or whatever want. Were I actually on the right, I'd be laughing my head off at the damage TERFs and SJWs, and BLM for that matter, are doing to the causes they supposedly represent. As it is, I can only sit in the middle, sadly shake my head, and wait for some semblance of sanity to appear from either side.
If ten times as many whites as blacks were being kept in slavery, and "black slavery" referred to slavery as it actually was -- people being kept as property and forced into hard labor -- while "white slavery" referred to service sector employees who are being paid less than minimum wage because it is expected that tips will make up the rest, but this is not always the case -- then "black slavery" would be analogous to FGM while "white slavery" would be analogous to male circumcision.

Ironic that you would bring up FGM though, because the post you quoted was responding to this:

Quote:
I don't "understand" that, as it's not true. They are equivalent, they are treating people as lesser due to their gender, and that should be unacceptable.

Now, they may not be equally prevalent, or equally damaging on a societal level (although they are definitely equally damaging on a personal level), but deliberately reaching for one to counter the other is hugely hypocritical.
Which was a post where you were trying to defend your argument that misandry and misogyny are exactly the same. So I'm not sure why you brought in FGM or circumcision. Do you care to respond to my actual point? Namely -- precisely because misandry and misogyny are not equally prevalent or equally damaging, pretending that they are exactly the same is kind of a messed up thing to do.
  #49  
Old 12-05-2018, 08:18 PM
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edit: joke was funnier in my head.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 12-05-2018 at 08:20 PM.
  #50  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
More of an Equality Rogue, I'd say.
Well, that whooshed right by you, I see.
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