Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-05-2018, 02:09 PM
Velocity Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 12,705
#MeToo backlash is hurting women (Bloomberg article)

Gist/summary (in case the article is behind a paywall): The #MeToo movement has lead to a backlash that now is hurting women in the workplace because it makes employers reluctant to hire women, men reluctant to mentor women or help women up the corporate ladder, a lot of men simply shy away from women, etc.

The "Pence Rule," or some spinoff of it, is being de facto adopted in many workplaces and in many instances, the casualties are collateral damage: #MeToo has made a lot of innocent men fearful of being falsely accused of harassment or a sexual offense (who have no realistic need to be fearful) and it has dampened career opportunities for a lot of women who would never make a false accusation against a man. The article notes that this fear/paranoia makes it all the harder for women to advance up the company ranks into higher positions at a time when women are/were already underrepresented.

Suppose we could backtrack a few years, before #MeToo took off. The need for something like #MeToo was/is obvious; something had to be done to put an end to sexual harassment. At the same time, though, the backlash is harming a great deal of women in the workplace, whether they were involved in #MeToo or not. Is there a way this could have been done differently so as to end sexual harassment while also not leading to fear or overreaction paranoia?
  #2  
Old 12-05-2018, 03:13 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat Sage Rat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 20,606
I read that yesterday. I note that it is light on numbers.

I will say, however, that I think that we do have a problem in our society in that we are rejecting the current method for men and women to date, but no one is suggesting an alternative. We don't have a new standard, and most people are still using the old one because, even though it has its annoying downsides, who is to decide the new way? And it's a bit silly to say things like "Don't objectify the women you meet" at the same time as we are saying "We encourage you to go to a location where you can't hear people talk, so that you have no reason to approach someone of the other sex except looks, get slightly sloshed, and start grinding on one another under strobing lights." Everything about how dating is done today is basically completely counter to logic or pleasant experiences for women, except through luck of the draw. (And, notably, love marriages have about the same success rate as arranged marriages - strongly implying that our results are just random.)

We should probably start to teach dating in schools, with a specific set of steps outlined, that allows for proper consent, no mixed signals, and starts from the position of shared world outlook and interests rather than physical appearance and "chemistry" (aka, the mutual desire to start boning). Once that standard is set, I would expect it to migrate up into the adult world.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-05-2018 at 03:15 PM.
  #3  
Old 12-05-2018, 03:18 PM
Typo Negative's Avatar
Typo Negative Typo Negative is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: 7th Level of Hell, Ca
Posts: 17,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Gist/summary (in case the article is behind a paywall): The #MeToo movement has lead to a backlash that now is hurting women in the workplace because it makes employers reluctant to hire women, men reluctant to mentor women or help women up the corporate ladder, a lot of men simply shy away from women, etc.
Forgive me, but is the argument that it's the Me Too movement that is hurting women, and NOT the male dominated culture that has supported sexual harassment since forever and continues because it doesn't want to deal internally with harassers and would rather do away with the women?
__________________
"God hates Facts"

- seen on a bumper sticker in Sacramento Ca
  #4  
Old 12-05-2018, 03:26 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 21,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity
Is there a way this could have been done differently so as to end sexual harassment while also not leading to fear or overreaction paranoia?
I think what your question boils down to is "Is there a way that the long-entrenched social toleration of sexual harassment could be replaced by condemnation and rejection of sexual harassment, without upsetting and alarming a lot of people who have been socially conditioned to regard sexual harassment as no big deal?"

And I think the answer is probably "no".
  #5  
Old 12-05-2018, 03:33 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,595
It shouldn't be a surprise that male-dominated institutions will continue to harm women and use something like #MeToo as an excuse. And that's all it is -- an excuse. It's not a real reason -- there's no reason to believe that being respectful and decent towards women in the workplace can cause one to have a high likelihood of being falsely accused of assault or harassment.

Any "backlash" is bullshit, to the extent of any legitimate fear. Sure, some people are pissed off and fearful about #MeToo, but those people are assholes who probably should retire and stop harming others with their dinosaurian and misogynistic behavior.
  #6  
Old 12-05-2018, 03:51 PM
Velocity Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 12,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
Forgive me, but is the argument that it's the Me Too movement that is hurting women, and NOT the male dominated culture that has supported sexual harassment since forever and continues because it doesn't want to deal internally with harassers and would rather do away with the women?
I think the idea is that many men in the workplace think that a substantial number of #MeToo accusations are false and hence feel the need to protect themselves from false accusations by eliminating situations where false accusations could arise. If a man thinks that as long as he doesn't harass women, he won't be accused of harassment, then he wouldn't feel the need to go far out of his way to avoid women - he'd just continue interacting with them, non-harassingly, as before. But if a man thinks he could be accused even if he's done nothing wrong, then he will feel the need to take far-reaching precautions.
  #7  
Old 12-05-2018, 03:53 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I think the idea is that many men in the workplace think that a substantial number of #MeToo accusations are false and hence feel the need to protect themselves from false accusations by eliminating situations where false accusations could arise. If a man thinks that as long as he doesn't harass women, he won't be accused of harassment, then he wouldn't feel the need to go far out of his way to avoid women - he'd just continue interacting with them, non-harassingly, as before. But if a man thinks he could be accused even if he's done nothing wrong, then he will feel the need to take far-reaching precautions.
Men who believe this are delusional and so indoctrinated by the patriarchal bent of society at large (and especially the most powerful and wealthy institutions and organizations) that they are incapable of seeing such things accurately.
  #8  
Old 12-05-2018, 04:03 PM
Bone's Avatar
Bone Bone is online now
Extrajudicial
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 9,653
The implications aren't surprising nor should they be unexpected. On balance, I think the #metoo movement is a tremendous net gain for society as a whole. But it shouldn't be surprising that in some instances it is a negative for certain people at certain times.

Pretend that you're a hiring manager, and a statistical analysis shows that you perform better at choosing candidates than all of your peers. Say, 70% turn out to be good hires and 30% need to be terminated. If there are two equal candidates, except A is easy to terminate if you have to, and B is difficult to terminate if you have to, doesn't it make sense to favor candidate A? Your all in costs are lower with A.

This calculus applies to all protected classes actually. From a social justice point of view it shouldn't make a difference, but from a purely dollars and cents point of view, it does.

Last edited by Bone; 12-05-2018 at 04:04 PM.
  #9  
Old 12-05-2018, 04:06 PM
Thudlow Boink's Avatar
Thudlow Boink Thudlow Boink is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Lincoln, IL
Posts: 25,862
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Any "backlash" is bullshit, to the extent of any legitimate fear. Sure, some people are pissed off and fearful about #MeToo, but those people are assholes who probably should retire and stop harming others with their dinosaurian and misogynistic behavior.
I think your brush is too broad.
  #10  
Old 12-05-2018, 04:16 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
I think your brush is too broad.
I'm open to persuasion. Under what circumstances is it reasonable for someone to be upset about #MeToo?
  #11  
Old 12-05-2018, 04:18 PM
Typo Negative's Avatar
Typo Negative Typo Negative is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: 7th Level of Hell, Ca
Posts: 17,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I think the idea is that many men in the workplace think that a substantial number of #MeToo accusations are false and hence feel the need to protect themselves from false accusations by eliminating situations where false accusations could arise. If a man thinks that as long as he doesn't harass women, he won't be accused of harassment, then he wouldn't feel the need to go far out of his way to avoid women - he'd just continue interacting with them, non-harassingly, as before. But if a man thinks he could be accused even if he's done nothing wrong, then he will feel the need to take far-reaching precautions.
You may be surprised to learn that many villains do not see themselves as villains.

Back in the day when woman fist started complaining about sexual harassment. I saw a program (Donahue, maybe) where a a man in the audience was lamenting that he now couldn't compliment on how woman looked good that day, that he couldn't kiss her on the cheek or hug her or rub her shoulders fearing that he might get accused of sexual harassment.

He did not see that all of this behavior was sexual in nature.

Now, if you are saying now that it is not sexual at all, just polite interaction......I would ask you......would you give this kiss on the cheek, this hug, this shoulder rub to Frank the facilities guy? No?Would you like it Frank did this to you? Why not? Because it be weird and creepy?

That's right. It is weird are creepy. You are initiating contact that is way too familiar and intimate and IS sexual and flirty. Guys do it because they think the workplace situation gives them cover to do it.

Men who make the decision to exclude women for fear that they might be accused are actually harassers.
__________________
"God hates Facts"

- seen on a bumper sticker in Sacramento Ca
  #12  
Old 12-05-2018, 04:31 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 79,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
Forgive me, but is the argument that it's the Me Too movement that is hurting women, and NOT the male dominated culture that has supported sexual harassment since forever and continues because it doesn't want to deal internally with harassers and would rather do away with the women?
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
It shouldn't be a surprise that male-dominated institutions will continue to harm women and use something like #MeToo as an excuse. And that's all it is -- an excuse. It's not a real reason -- there's no reason to believe that being respectful and decent towards women in the workplace can cause one to have a high likelihood of being falsely accused of assault or harassment.

Any "backlash" is bullshit, to the extent of any legitimate fear. Sure, some people are pissed off and fearful about #MeToo, but those people are assholes who probably should retire and stop harming others with their dinosaurian and misogynistic behavior.
I agree. The fundamental problem here is sexism and that's what needs to be addressed.
  #13  
Old 12-05-2018, 04:36 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 79,211
Suppose a business decided to "protect" itself by refusing to hire any men. After all, if there are no men in the workplace then none of the women who work there can accuse any man of sexually harassing them. So the business would just be taking reasonable steps to avoid all potential accusations of sexual harassment.

Would the OP be okay with that?
  #14  
Old 12-05-2018, 04:39 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 21,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I think the idea is that many men in the workplace think that a substantial number of #MeToo accusations are false
The question is, why would a man think that? He'd have to believe that making accusations of sexual harassment is somehow significantly beneficial to women, to the extent that women would be significantly motivated to make such accusations falsely.

Any man who believes that has not been paying attention to, say, the venomous attacks on Christine Blasey Ford or Anita Hill. There is really no reliable payoff for women in claiming that men have harassed or assaulted them, even in situations where the claims are definitely 100% true.

Sure, some men may be plagued by fears of some kind of Scheming Villainess scenario, where a woman cold-bloodedly plots to destroy a completely innocent and inoffensive man by concocting complete fabrications about his behavior, which somehow manage to convince everybody without any valid evidentiary support and result in his downfall. And I'm not trying to argue that such a scenario can absolutely never happen. But anybody who believes that it's typical or likely has got a seriously delusional mindset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity
and hence feel the need to protect themselves from false accusations by eliminating situations where false accusations could arise.
Must be nice to have that kind of institutionalized power, I guess?

"Whoa, some unscrupulous members of this historically disadvantaged group might possibly do us significant harm by making up false accusations against us? Must protect ourselves from that extremely unlikely outcome by relentlessly discriminating against all members of that group and discrediting all such accusations whether false or true! Fortunately our historically privileged position enables us to implement this strategy effectively! High five, dudes!"

Last edited by Kimstu; 12-05-2018 at 04:40 PM.
  #15  
Old 12-05-2018, 04:39 PM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 44,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I think the idea is that many men in the workplace think that a substantial number of #MeToo accusations are false and hence feel the need to protect themselves from false accusations by eliminating situations where false accusations could arise. If a man thinks that as long as he doesn't harass women, he won't be accused of harassment, then he wouldn't feel the need to go far out of his way to avoid women - he'd just continue interacting with them, non-harassingly, as before. But if a man thinks he could be accused even if he's done nothing wrong, then he will feel the need to take far-reaching precautions.
Has he done nothing wrong, or does he think (or claim) that he did nothing wrong.
Let's consider Les Moonves, that poor victim. Among the many accusations, apparently verified by the law firms CBS hired, was that a subordinate regularly performed oral sex on him. He claims this was consensual. Given the other verified charges, it seems unlikely that he didn't initiate this. Would he be correct in thinking that a #Me Too accusation from this woman was false?

We men have grown up thinking unacceptable and harassing behavior is acceptable. It is not surprising that when men are called on it they think they are innocent and being accused unfairly. That could happen - but I suspect it's not common. Asking someone out five times, and being refused each time, is not being persistent. It is being harassing. And obnoxious.
  #16  
Old 12-05-2018, 04:52 PM
Thudlow Boink's Avatar
Thudlow Boink Thudlow Boink is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Lincoln, IL
Posts: 25,862
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'm open to persuasion. Under what circumstances is it reasonable for someone to be upset about #MeToo?
The circumstances don't even have to be reasonable in order for your brush to be too broad. They just have to be attributable to something besides misogyny or assholishness様ike paranoia, or naivety, or misunderstanding what's going on.

If I understand correctly, the point of the OP and its linked article is that a significant number of men are reluctant to hire, mentor, or work closely with women, because they are afraid of being accused of sexual harassment.

Your claim, if I understand it correctly, is that the only men who would think that way are the assholes葉hose who actually do or would engage in skeevy behavior, and/or those who are looking for excuses not to work with women anyway.

I suspect that that applies to some of the men in question, but not all of them. There is a real, small but nonzero, chance that an innocent man who works closely with a woman would be accused of sexual harassment, out of malice or opportunism or delusion or misinterpretation of innocent gestures. And, since humans are notoriously bad at intuitive risk assessment, I can easily believe that an innocent man might overestimate the chance of such a thing happening to him and become fearful of working with women.
  #17  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:07 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
The circumstances don't even have to be reasonable in order for your brush to be too broad. They just have to be attributable to something besides misogyny or assholishness様ike paranoia, or naivety, or misunderstanding what's going on.

If I understand correctly, the point of the OP and its linked article is that a significant number of men are reluctant to hire, mentor, or work closely with women, because they are afraid of being accused of sexual harassment.

Your claim, if I understand it correctly, is that the only men who would think that way are the assholes葉hose who actually do or would engage in skeevy behavior, and/or those who are looking for excuses not to work with women anyway.

I suspect that that applies to some of the men in question, but not all of them. There is a real, small but nonzero, chance that an innocent man who works closely with a woman would be accused of sexual harassment, out of malice or opportunism or delusion or misinterpretation of innocent gestures. And, since humans are notoriously bad at intuitive risk assessment, I can easily believe that an innocent man might overestimate the chance of such a thing happening to him and become fearful of working with women.
Even falsely accused men should realize that their cases are extremely rare and do not reflect upon the broader movement. I'll amend my statement that extremely ignorant men could also be fearful of #MeToo, but such an extreme level of ignorance (which may still be relatively common, of course) would render them morally unqualified to be in any position of power whatsoever -- even the lowliest supervisor. Now sure, we should want to educate the ignorant, but that doesn't mean when trying to objectively analyze the situation (such as in a thread like this) we need to be reticent to accurately characterize them.
  #18  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:12 PM
Budget Player Cadet's Avatar
Budget Player Cadet Budget Player Cadet is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Gist/summary (in case the article is behind a paywall): The #MeToo movement has lead to a backlash that now is hurting women in the workplace because it makes employers reluctant to hire women, men reluctant to mentor women or help women up the corporate ladder, a lot of men simply shy away from women, etc.

The "Pence Rule," or some spinoff of it, is being de facto adopted in many workplaces and in many instances, the casualties are collateral damage: #MeToo has made a lot of innocent men fearful of being falsely accused of harassment or a sexual offense (who have no realistic need to be fearful) and it has dampened career opportunities for a lot of women who would never make a false accusation against a man. The article notes that this fear/paranoia makes it all the harder for women to advance up the company ranks into higher positions at a time when women are/were already underrepresented.

Suppose we could backtrack a few years, before #MeToo took off. The need for something like #MeToo was/is obvious; something had to be done to put an end to sexual harassment. At the same time, though, the backlash is harming a great deal of women in the workplace, whether they were involved in #MeToo or not. Is there a way this could have been done differently so as to end sexual harassment while also not leading to fear or overreaction paranoia?
No.

The reaction of any given man when told that another man sexually harassed or assaulted a woman is, very often, going to be disbelief. I'm not sure why - it just is. Maybe they identify with the perpetrator rather than the victim. Maybe they're naive about how common sexual assault is. Maybe the high-profile nature of cases like the Duke Lacrosse case blew the issue of false allegations way out of proportion. Maybe they were taught to respond that way by high-profile cases that implicated people they idolized. Maybe they're just misogynistic pricks.

But look at the responses to basically any case. There are always people denying it. People didn't believe Bill Cosby was a rapist until dozens of women came forward. There were recent allegations against Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and before even hearing his side of the story or basically any details, there were tons of people who categorically denied that he did anything wrong. Bring up the accusations of sexual assault against Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, and Brett Kavanaugh, and you'll have half the country (maybe less than half in Clinton's case) rejecting the accusers categorically. Even in cases where the accused immediately copped to it, you have countless people arguing that it "wasn't that bad", like with Louis CK, and concern trolling about "HAS #METOO GONE TOO FAR?!!1". And of course, online discourse is flooded with anti-SJW assholes who push a complementary narrative about feminist "professional victims" (and don't get me started on how awful those fuckers are).

Now consider that 81% of women have experienced sexual harassment.

81%.

Someone's doing all that harassing. A lot of someones. That's a lot of someones with a strong, personal vested interest in painting #MeToo as being as hysterical and insane as possible. A lot of someones who have a personal stake in both believing and spreading the above views. A lot of someones who want to see themselves as good people, and thus want to believe that what they've done is no big deal.

We're dealing with a major cultural upheaval. For the first time, sexual harassment is being taken seriously. People in positions of power and authority who were heard and often trusted by default are no longer getting away with doing whatever they wanted. And given how culture looks, this was always going to end up looking kind of ugly. There was always going to be a shitty, misogynistic, self-serving backlash. Let's be clear here - if you hear that someone is accused of sexual harassment or assault and your default sympathies are with the accused rather than the accuser, well, that you're really bad at statistics is probably one of the nicer things that can be said about you.

The solution here is to push even harder. Men who support the Pence Rule deserve to be fired. Full stop. If your response to "people accused of sexual assault have to face the music" is to shut women out of your company, get the fuck out. Their misogynistic fearmongering is baseless and hurting those around them. Every single one of the 30 executives Bloomberg interviewed deserves to be named and shamed and fired. They should not get to keep their jobs, because their shitty, toxic attitudes are legitimately harmful, and their own small-minded idiocy is leading to them, at the very least, making fucking terrible HR decisions. Stephen Zweig has got it in one:
的f men avoid working or traveling with women alone, or stop mentoring women for fear of being accused of sexual harassment, he said, 鍍hose men are going to back out of a sexual harassment complaint and right into a sex discrimination complaint.
Yeah! Good! Because the correct response to "sexual assault victims are being heard" is not "gosh, I'd better never be around women in private any more", it's "gosh, I'd better not sexually harass women"!
  #19  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:13 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Men who believe this are delusional and so indoctrinated by the patriarchal bent of society at large (and especially the most powerful and wealthy institutions and organizations) that they are incapable of seeing such things accurately.
Do you not believe that false accusations occur?
  #20  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:16 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 21,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
There is a real, small but nonzero, chance that an innocent man who works closely with a woman would be accused of sexual harassment, out of malice or opportunism or delusion or misinterpretation of innocent gestures. And, since humans are notoriously bad at intuitive risk assessment, I can easily believe that an innocent man might overestimate the chance of such a thing happening to him and become fearful of working with women.
Try turning that around with regard to sexual harassment itself, though, rather than accusation of sexual harassment, and see how it sounds:

"There is a real, small but nonzero, chance that an innocent woman who works closely with a man would be subjected to sexual harassment, out of malice or opportunism or delusion or misinterpretation of innocent gestures. And, since humans are notoriously bad at intuitive risk assessment, I can easily believe that an innocent woman might overestimate the chance of such a thing happening to her and become fearful of working with men."

Would anyone seriously argue that the "fearful" woman in this case should, or realistically could, "protect herself" from such a chance by means of broad-based discrimination against men as a group?

And of course, the chance that a woman actually will be sexually harassed is vastly greater than the chance that a man will be falsely accused of harassment.

This is why the notion of women being somehow responsible for an anti-woman "backlash" from #MeToo sounds to so many people like a bunch of butthurt bullshit. Women routinely put up with, and are routinely expected to put up with, a realistically significant risk of career damage and personal distress due to bad behavior from men. This overall injustice has essentially zero real-world negative consequences for men as a group.

Yet when men become aware that they might have to endure a far slighter risk of career damage and personal distress due to bad behavior from women, they're supposed to be able to throw conniption fits of sexist discrimination all over the workplace? And women as a group are supposed to take responsibility for having inspired "fear" in men, and the subsequent sexist discrimination that the poor fwightened men have perpetrated in order to protect their privileged asses from this comparatively minuscule threat?

I think you probably can see why that attitude might be generating a fair bit of anger and scorn.
  #21  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:17 PM
Budget Player Cadet's Avatar
Budget Player Cadet Budget Player Cadet is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Do you not believe that false accusations occur?
They're so rare as to be virtually nonexistent.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...ccused-of-rape
The best data we have the number of people prosecuted for making false allegations suggests that the average adult man in England and Wales has a 0.00021281 per cent chance of being falsely accused of rape in a year. (That痴 based on 35 prosecutions for false rape allegations in 2011 compared to 16.5 million men aged 16 to 59 living in England and Wales at the time).

By this measure, a man is 230 times more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused of rape.

And let痴 put the stats through an even stronger test. Imagine for a second that you believe that every single one of the men prosecuted for rape in England and Wales in 2016-17 was falsely accused. Even if that unlikely scenario were true, there would still have been more adult male victims of rape (8,000) than men prosecuted for those rapes they 電idn稚 commit (5,190).
And keep in mind, they're talking about men getting raped. Men get raped at an incidence rate far lower than women. If you're more worried about false accusations than being raped, your priorities are backwards. If the main contribution you have to society's conversation about the non-stop pandemic of sexual assault and rape is "but what about the tiny percentage of men who get falsely accused of abuse?!", then there's something really wrong.
  #22  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:23 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
They're so rare as to be virtually nonexistent.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...ccused-of-rape
The best data we have — the number of people prosecuted for making false allegations — suggests that the average adult man in England and Wales has a 0.00021281 per cent chance of being falsely accused of rape in a year. (That’s based on 35 prosecutions for false rape allegations in 2011 compared to 16.5 million men aged 16 to 59 living in England and Wales at the time).

By this measure, a man is 230 times more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused of rape.

And let’s put the stats through an even stronger test. Imagine for a second that you believe that every single one of the men prosecuted for rape in England and Wales in 2016-17 was falsely accused. Even if that unlikely scenario were true, there would still have been more adult male victims of rape (8,000) than men prosecuted for those rapes they “didn’t commit” (5,190).
And keep in mind, they're talking about men getting raped. Men get raped at an incidence rate far lower than women. If you're more worried about false accusations than being raped, your priorities are backwards. If the main contribution you have to society's conversation about the non-stop pandemic of sexual assault and rape is "but what about the tiny percentage of men who get falsely accused of abuse?!", then there's something really wrong.
I don't think that "the number of people prosecuted for making false allegations" is a good measure of the rate of false allegations. Do you?

Can you imagine any situations where an accusation might be false and yet not be prosecuted as such? Like, say, accusations made to a corporate HR department?

Have you ever heard a news story where an accuser of sexual harassment recants his/her story and is then let off without prosecution?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 12-05-2018 at 05:24 PM.
  #23  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:25 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,053
I've seen a disturbing amount of sexual harassment in my workplace. Sometimes it's been so overt I am left in a bit of shock "did he really just say/do that?".

I don't know why these women put up with it.

Ever since I was 17 and started dating the woman who would become my wife, I've lived by something like the "Pence Rule". Because of that, I've never been in a situation where I could even be credibly accused or suspected of anything untoward.
  #24  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:28 PM
Budget Player Cadet's Avatar
Budget Player Cadet Budget Player Cadet is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I don't think that "the number of people prosecuted for making false allegations" is a good measure of the rate of false allegations. Do you?
If you started from the assumption that every single rape case prosecuted was based on a false allegation, the number of men raped is still higher than the number of false rape allegations.

This is the same crap I went through in the Voter ID threads. You can quibble a bit about the numbers, but how many orders of magnitude off do you think they are? One? Two? If they're off by less than a factor of 100, you're still bad at statistics. By all means, if you have better numbers, offer them, but if all you have on offer is "that might be skewed slightly", please, save us both the annoyance and don't bother.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 12-05-2018 at 05:29 PM.
  #25  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:30 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,595
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
I've seen a disturbing amount of sexual harassment in my workplace. Sometimes it's been so overt I am left in a bit of shock "did he really just say/do that?".

I don't know why these women put up with it.
Glad that you recognize this.

Quote:
Ever since I was 17 and started dating the woman who would become my wife, I've lived by something like the "Pence Rule". Because of that, I've never been in a situation where I could even be credibly accused or suspected of anything untoward.
Are you in a position with any power (i.e. a supervisor)? If so, how many women have missed out on instances of experience that could be useful to their career and potential advancement because of your fear of being alone with a woman?

Perhaps you should change this policy (you can still have a "no closed doors" policy applied to everyone that doesn't discriminate at all).
  #26  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:35 PM
Budget Player Cadet's Avatar
Budget Player Cadet Budget Player Cadet is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
I've seen a disturbing amount of sexual harassment in my workplace. Sometimes it's been so overt I am left in a bit of shock "did he really just say/do that?".

I don't know why these women put up with it.
Good on you for being so woke and in tune with the realities of daily work life for wom-

Quote:
Ever since I was 17 and started dating the woman who would become my wife, I've lived by something like the "Pence Rule". Because of that, I've never been in a situation where I could even be credibly accused or suspected of anything untoward.
God dammit.
  #27  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:36 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Are you in a position with any power (i.e. a supervisor)? If so, how many women have missed out on instances of experience that could be useful to their career and potential advancement because of your fear of being alone with a woman?
Yes, I supervise 7 women, 6 directly, and no men.

None have missed out on anything. There is nothing in this job that would require me to be alone with any of them.

BTW, it's not fear, it's prudence.
  #28  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:41 PM
Lemur866's Avatar
Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: The Middle of Puget Sound
Posts: 22,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
I've seen a disturbing amount of sexual harassment in my workplace. Sometimes it's been so overt I am left in a bit of shock "did he really just say/do that?".

I don't know why these women put up with it.

Ever since I was 17 and started dating the woman who would become my wife, I've lived by something like the "Pence Rule". Because of that, I've never been in a situation where I could even be credibly accused or suspected of anything untoward.
Why aren't you afraid that a man that you've been alone with will falsely accuse you of sexual harassment?
  #29  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:43 PM
enalzi enalzi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 7,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
Yes, I supervise 7 women, 6 directly, and no men.

None have missed out on anything. There is nothing in this job that would require me to be alone with any of them.

BTW, it's not fear, it's prudence.
What if one of your subordinates needs to discuss something with you privately?
  #30  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:44 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur866 View Post
Why aren't you afraid that a man that you've been alone with will falsely accuse you of sexual harassment?
Just curious, in the universe of sexual harassment complaints in the workplace, what % of them come from women vs men?
  #31  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:45 PM
Whack-a-Mole's Avatar
Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 20,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
They're so rare as to be virtually nonexistent.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...ccused-of-rape
The best data we have — the number of people prosecuted for making false allegations — suggests that the average adult man in England and Wales has a 0.00021281 per cent chance of being falsely accused of rape in a year. (That’s based on 35 prosecutions for false rape allegations in 2011 compared to 16.5 million men aged 16 to 59 living in England and Wales at the time).

By this measure, a man is 230 times more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused of rape.

And let’s put the stats through an even stronger test. Imagine for a second that you believe that every single one of the men prosecuted for rape in England and Wales in 2016-17 was falsely accused. Even if that unlikely scenario were true, there would still have been more adult male victims of rape (8,000) than men prosecuted for those rapes they “didn’t commit” (5,190).
And keep in mind, they're talking about men getting raped. Men get raped at an incidence rate far lower than women. If you're more worried about false accusations than being raped, your priorities are backwards. If the main contribution you have to society's conversation about the non-stop pandemic of sexual assault and rape is "but what about the tiny percentage of men who get falsely accused of abuse?!", then there's something really wrong.
This whole thing is weird...

More men are raped than men are prosecuted for rape but men rape women at a much higher incidence than men being raped?

And remember an accusation is not a prosecution and a rape accusation can be devastating (true or not). Careers can be ruined on an accusation alone and we have plenty of high profile examples to point at.

Further, I would submit a false accusation is a lot more likely against men of wealth and/or power motivated either by hopes of financial gain or political vendetta.

I would submit that it is still a pretty rare thing for a false accusation to happen, even to the rich guys, but then humans are really bad at assessing risk and if you have more to lose you are more fearful of losing it.

Also, there is a follow-up (of sorts) to the article in the OP: NYC Officials Blast Wall Street's Ice-Out of Women in Wake of #MeToo
__________________
"I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid; I meant, that stupid persons are generally Conservative. I believe that to be so obvious and undeniable a fact that I hardly think any hon. Gentleman will question it." ~John Stuart Mill

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 12-05-2018 at 05:48 PM.
  #32  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:48 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur866 View Post
Why aren't you afraid that a man that you've been alone with will falsely accuse you of sexual harassment?
Incidentally, that kind of thing does happen in my workplace.

I can't think of a time I've been alone with a man here either.
  #33  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:49 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by enalzi View Post
What if one of your subordinates needs to discuss something with you privately?
My office has a door with a big, clear window.
  #34  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:53 PM
Two Many Cats Two Many Cats is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,090
Well gee, another thread about the dangers men face from false accusations of sexual misconduct. Ho and Hum. This is getting monotonous.

Do any of you frat boys realize what a person has to go through and the risk they take by reporting a harasser? You can't just walk into HR and say, "That person touched me, and I didn't like it." like you were a sulky kid in the back seat of a long car ride with a sibling. You have to have documentation of prior bad acts or maybe witnesses before your claim is taken farther than the boss "having a word" with the aggressor.

Plus pursuing the claim farther than that leads to all sorts of job stress for the complainer, rumors and office politics being what they are. Never mind getting the law involved. There might be lawyers to consult, court dates to attend, and all the costs of that. Nobody except a raving loon is going to go through all that in a fit of pique over a misinterpreted joke or gesture.

As has already been pointed out in this thread, the percentage of false accusation of harassment and/or rape is vanishingly small. Yet on this board, all the time, there are these threads about FALSE ACCUSATIONS!!! WHAT DOES #METOO INTEND TO DO ABOUT ALL THE FALSE ACCUSATIONS???

Lemme tell ya, if you are really petrified about the #MeToo Movement causing an avalanche of false accusations, I believe you are feeling your guilty conscience speaking to you.

Last edited by Two Many Cats; 12-05-2018 at 05:54 PM.
  #35  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:55 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 21,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
I can't think of a time I've been alone with a man here either.
If you have a workplace policy of never being alone with any employee regardless of gender, then I don't see anything discriminatory about that.

The problem is not men "protecting themselves" by maintaining gender-neutral high standards of dignified professionalism in their workplace behavior: the problem is men "protecting themselves" by discriminating against women.
  #36  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:57 PM
Lemur866's Avatar
Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: The Middle of Puget Sound
Posts: 22,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Just curious, in the universe of sexual harassment complaints in the workplace, what % of them come from women vs men?
Just curious, in the universe of sexual harassment complaints in the workplace, what % of them are just completely made up out of whole cloth?

See, I understand where you're going with this. Your theory is that sexual harassment complaints by men against other men are pretty rare, so it's an acceptable risk to be alone with a man.

If you won't be alone with a woman because she might be a psychopath who will falsely accuse of of sexual harassment, do you think men are less likely to be psychopaths than women? After all, we're not talking here about legit sexual harassment complaints, we're talking about malicious false complaints, right?

I get it, you're not gonna proposition some dude for sex, that would be disgusting, right? But we're not talking about what you would do, we're talking about what some other person might falsely accuse you of.

So why is it that you might think a false accusation by a woman is much more likely than a false accusation by a man? Thing is, we can pretty safely say that genuine sexual harassment by men against women is more common than by men against men, right? Or if we can't say that, then what you're arguing is that men are less likely to snitch after getting harassed, and so it's safer to harass them?
  #37  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:00 PM
Two Many Cats Two Many Cats is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Do you not believe that false accusations occur?
I believe cannibalism occurs with about the same frequency, yes.
  #38  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:07 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Two Many Cats View Post
I believe cannibalism occurs with about the same frequency, yes.
According to the BBC, in the case of rape:

Quote:
Over the past 20 years, only 2-10% of rape accusations (Prof Ford's lawyer says she believes this was attempted rape) are proven to be fake, argue the authors of a 2010 US study.

That figure does not include any unsubstantiated accusations where an investigation was unable to prove a sexual assault occurred, so an accurate figure for the total remains unknown.

Other studies have figures in the same range. The FBI has put the number of "unfounded" rapes - those determined to be false after investigation - at 8%.
8% would be a shitload of cannibalism.
  #39  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:08 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat Sage Rat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 20,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Also, there is a follow-up (of sorts) to the article in the OP: NYC Officials Blast Wall Street's Ice-Out of Women in Wake of #MeToo
Which, I'll note, also is light on numbers.

This could all just be some people ruminating on fears, not realities. Neither the original article nor this one has shown that Wall Street is actually doing anything different than before (e.g., hiring fewer women, etc.)
  #40  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:16 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 21,186
Ultimately, the problem underlying this concern is that overall, accusations of sexual harassment of women by men are by default extremely credible, because so many men do harass women.

The people who've done by far the most to put men as a group at risk for false harassment accusations (still an extremely small risk, as previously noted) are not the women of #MeToo, but rather the men who have normalized sexual harassment as a routine feature of the workplace.
  #41  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:26 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,458
Benjamin Franklin is said to have written "That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer". I wonder if many (or any) posters in this thread would agree with this.
  #42  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:27 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone View Post
The implications aren't surprising nor should they be unexpected. On balance, I think the #metoo movement is a tremendous net gain for society as a whole. But it shouldn't be surprising that in some instances it is a negative for certain people at certain times.

Pretend that you're a hiring manager, and a statistical analysis shows that you perform better at choosing candidates than all of your peers. Say, 70% turn out to be good hires and 30% need to be terminated. If there are two equal candidates, except A is easy to terminate if you have to, and B is difficult to terminate if you have to, doesn't it make sense to favor candidate A? Your all in costs are lower with A.

This calculus applies to all protected classes actually. From a social justice point of view it shouldn't make a difference, but from a purely dollars and cents point of view, it does.
I am a hiring manager, and an owner, (which means I am also in charge of raises, promotions, discipline and termination)but I am confused by this.

What do you mean candidate A is easy to terminate, but B is difficult?

Are you keeping proper documentation and records of performance and disciplinary actions? If so, then it does not matter what demographic you are terminating, it should all be exactly as easy or as difficult as your policies make it.

If you are not keeping proper documentation and records of performance and disciplinary actions, then you may find yourself in a situation where it is believed that you have terminated someone due to their demographics, rather than their performance or discipline, and you may find it difficult to prove that you didn't. However, if you are not keeping proper documentation and records of performance and disciplinary actions, you may actually be acting on prejudice, and not even realize it.

Essentially, your complaint is only something that would be feared by poorly run or ignorant management or owners. Unfortunately, such people are not all that rare. Even your cavalier admission that you expect that people are terminated based on ease of termination due to their demographic status, rather than based on their performance and disciplinary history, shows that that attitude is very dangerously rampant.

I can agree with the OP. I can see many businesses refusing to hire women because they are afraid of being accused of sexual harassment. However, those businesses are poorly run, and they are run by sexists. What percentage of companies hold to these outdated values of undervaluing women is a question that we may see an answer to sooner than later, as they unravel themselves by demonstrating their bigotry.


Full disclosure: Out of my 13 employees, 12 are women.
  #43  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:27 PM
Typo Negative's Avatar
Typo Negative Typo Negative is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: 7th Level of Hell, Ca
Posts: 17,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Do you not believe that false accusations occur?
Serious question.

You hear that a man has been accused of harassing a female subordinate. Is 'false accusation' your first thought?

I mean, yes, false accusations occur. But they are, by every definition, rare. But it seems that you think that possibility of a false accusation is far worse than the everyday actual sexual harassment that nearly all women have had to put up with.
__________________
"God hates Facts"

- seen on a bumper sticker in Sacramento Ca
  #44  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:29 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,595
#MeToo is about preventing the suffering caused by sexual assault and harassment and related issues, so is entirely in keeping with the philosophy that protecting the innocent is more important than punishing the guilty. Without #MeToo (or a comparable movement), the widespread suffering caused by abuse and assault and harassment would continue without abatement; with #MeToo, we're actually starting to try and prevent this suffering.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 12-05-2018 at 06:30 PM.
  #45  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:35 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,495
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Benjamin Franklin is said to have written "That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer". I wonder if many (or any) posters in this thread would agree with this.
Are you trying to say that a woman in the workplace who endures sexual harassment doesn't suffer, but men who are no longer allowed to sexual harras a woman in the workplace do?

If not, then you post here means nothing.
  #46  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:35 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
Serious question.

You hear that a man has been accused of harassing a female subordinate. Is 'false accusation' your first thought? ...
No.
  #47  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:36 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
#MeToo is about preventing the suffering caused by sexual assault and harassment and related issues, so is entirely in keeping with the philosophy that protecting the innocent is more important than punishing the guilty. Without #MeToo (or a comparable movement), the widespread suffering caused by abuse and assault and harassment would continue without abatement; with #MeToo, we're actually starting to try and prevent this suffering.
So we can put you down as preferring that 100 guilty sexual harassers go free rather than one innocent one be wrongly punished?
  #48  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:39 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Are you trying to say that a woman in the workplace who endures sexual harassment doesn't suffer, but men who are no longer allowed to sexual harras a woman in the workplace do? ...
Not even remotely. The Benjamin Franklin quote is all about the rate of "false positives" we ought to consider acceptable in our enforcement efforts.
  #49  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:42 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 31,595
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
So we can put you down as preferring that 100 guilty sexual harassers go free rather than one innocent one be wrongly punished?
Not interested in playing your ridiculous games. If you want to have a real conversation about sexual assault and harassment, then put some real thought into it. Silly pablum is just silly pablum. I'm interested in preventing the immense suffering caused by our society's widespread tolerance of sexual assault and harassment, and I'm happy to talk about anything that can further that cause in threads on the topic. No one has suggested punishing the innocent.
  #50  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:55 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Not interested in playing your ridiculous games. If you want to have a real conversation about sexual assault and harassment, then put some real thought into it. Silly pablum is just silly pablum. I'm interested in preventing the immense suffering caused by our society's widespread tolerance of sexual assault and harassment, and I'm happy to talk about anything that can further that cause in threads on the topic. No one has suggested punishing the innocent.
I don't think it's a "ridiculous game" at all. How do you think the #MeToo movement should handle false accusations like those of Crystal Mangum? Should they be brushed aside? 'BFD! It's only 8%! That's almost as rare as cannibalism!'?

Should people like her be excoriated by the movement? Ostracized from polite society? Coddled? Prosecuted? What?

If you can't see how this issue relates very directly to your quest to get women's accusations treated more seriously, I think you're purposely blinding yourself.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 12-05-2018 at 06:56 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:53 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright ゥ 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017