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Old 12-06-2018, 12:39 PM
Capn Carl Capn Carl is online now
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Trump is an atheist.

There are plenty of Christians who show as little knowledge of the Bible as he does. There are also plenty of Christians who have sinned as he has. And I canít know what he thinks about religion, so itís just a hunch. I think heís an atheist. What do you think?
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:41 PM
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I cannot imagine Trump thinking that he comes in second to any other entity in the universe.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:41 PM
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He doesn't think deeply enough to be an atheist. He's much too pragmatic.

Do you think he's ever really deeply pondered "the important questions"?
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:41 PM
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I think he worships money.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:42 PM
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An atheist believes there is no God. Trump believes that he is God.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:44 PM
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He has no idea what he is.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:45 PM
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I think Trump claims to be a Christian to appeal to Christian conservatives. I don't know what, if anything, he actually believes, but I'd bet that he's read as much Bible as he has Constitution.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:46 PM
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He doesn't think deeply enough to be an atheist.
This. He's not smart enough to be an atheist.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:48 PM
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To be agnostic or atheist (or theist, for that matter) is to be interested enough in the subject to reflect on what you believe. I see no indication that Trump meets the entry-level criteria for believing in anything at all. A delightful word is 'apatheist' but I'm not sure it applies to somebody who is utterly incurious about anything except himself.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:49 PM
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I think Trump claims to be a Christian to appeal to Christian conservatives. I don't know what, if anything, he actually believes, but I'd bet that he's read as much Bible as he has Constitution.
Do you mean all the parts in either that mention him by name?
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:54 PM
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He worships the Almighty Dollar.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:58 PM
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Trump is an apatheticist.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:12 PM
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Doesn't matter. He's the instrument of God, sent directly from Heaven to scour God's most favoritest country ever of the brown people, and that's what counts. Or something like that.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:15 PM
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I would say he is 'areligious' and firmly on the side of the religious 'Nones.' I would guess that if you gave him the Pew Forum survey he would be that nebulous group that doesn't actually check the atheist box, but firmly on the 'nothing in particular' spectrum. As far as I can tell only one of his children was ever baptized - Barron who was done so at an Episcopal Church. He's obviously not a practicing anything since he doesn't have even the vaguest familiarity with Christian thought ("Two Corinthians" is such a completely ludicrous thing for any Christian to say as to firmly mark him as a complete non-practicer and to double down on it makes it even more obvious that he doesn't have a clue.) Melania is similarly difficult to peg, but claims to be a Catholic, although there is little evidence she is particularly devout, but it does seem likely that she at least had some catechism or other familiarity with Catholicism since she has been filmed saying the Lord's Prayer in the Catholic manner and she apparently was the only one of Trump's wives to get her kid baptized. I think that it's not unreasonable to guess she's what might be called a 'CE (Christmas-Easter) Catholic.'
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:16 PM
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I actually had someone tell me the other day that the "trumpets" mentioned in the book of Revelation have something to do with Trump
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:17 PM
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He doesn't think deeply enough to be an atheist. He's much too pragmatic.

Do you think he's ever really deeply pondered "the important questions"?
Precisely.

In terms of practice, his little Apostle's Creed flap indicates, to me, that Trump considers himself a visitor at church services, not a member or a participant. I've seen folks hold their programs discreetly like that at services. Since I embraced atheism, I've been known to do it myself. Nothing wrong with that, but it should be owned up to.

I wouldn't classify Trump as an atheist - that takes some conviction and implies some thoughtful consideration of the matter. Practically speaking, he's a "none". He may have had nominal membership in a Presbyterian congregation in New York, but I doubt he ever really thought about it prior to entering politics. Perhaps he still has not.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:25 PM
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No I don't believe he is an atheist. To be that requires deep thought and the ability to question yourself. He has shown no capacity for that. He is too stupid to be an atheist.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:25 PM
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I actually had someone tell me the other day that the "trumpets" mentioned in the book of Revelation have something to do with Trump
WTH? That is about the dumbest thing I ever heard. You shouldn't stand too close to that person, lightening is sure to strike.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:01 PM
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I do want to comment that I don't know why you have to be some deep philosophical thinker to be an atheist. Maybe in the individual cases of the posters on this thread it came as some deeply moving personal investment, but for other people saying there is no God is as easy as farting. You don't have to be some academic philosopher to not believe in God any more than you have to be a deep philosopher TO believe in God. Not everyone has "Dark Nights of the Soul." Trump strikes me as the kind of person who certainly could be an atheist just because he woke up one morning and decided he was.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:04 PM
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I do want to comment that I don't know why you have to be some deep philosophical thinker to be an atheist...
It's not this drastic.
You just have to be deeper than Trump. The smallest amount of introspection and thought.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:12 PM
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An atheist believes there is no God. Trump believes that he is God.
'Tis a puzzlement!
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:19 PM
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An atheist believes there is no God. Trump believes that he is God.
I came here to say exactly the same thing.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:30 PM
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I'm not sure he's an atheist, but I am sure he's very, VERY indifferent to it.

Evangelicals don't care about that. He's basically their Cyrus the Great.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:37 PM
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There are plenty of Christians who show as little knowledge of the Bible as he does. There are also plenty of Christians who have sinned as he has. And I canít know what he thinks about religion, so itís just a hunch. I think heís an atheist. What do you think?
He doesn't appear to know much about the bible--like plenty of Christians
His apparent sins are not unlike those of Christians
And you say...he's an atheist? Sounds like a typical Christian to me, by the standards you present in the OP.

Where are you going with this? And why does it matter whether or not he's a Christian?
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:42 PM
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He is a non-attending (and likely non-practicing)- Presbyterian.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:43 PM
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No I don't believe he is an atheist. To be that requires deep thought and the ability to question yourself. He has shown no capacity for that. He is too stupid to be an atheist.
Why?

Leaving a religion may require deep thought or at least the ability to question, but someone brought up atheist is just as likely to be atheist by default as someone brought up religious is to be religious.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:45 PM
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Trump is an apatheist, he is too consumed by his narcissism, lust and craving for adulation to care about things like philosophy.

Obama may have been an atheist, but I doubt Trump is. Trump just doesn't care about anything other than himself enough to ponder the question.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:49 PM
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Why?

Leaving a religion may require deep thought or at least the ability to question, but someone brought up atheist is just as likely to be atheist by default as someone brought up religious is to be religious.
There are going to be unintelligent, uneducated people who grew up in communist nations and east Asian nations who are atheists just because that was the predominant philosophy of the society they grew up in. Just as there are people who grew up there and converted to theism, and people who examined theism but stayed with atheism.

But the issue is Trump has probably never even reflected on philosophy. He seems so mired in his own cravings and ego to notice the world around him. I doubt he has given the idea much thought.

There are different kinds of irreligious thought. Trump doesn't strike me as someone who contemplated philosophy and rejected theism. He is more someone who never looked beyond his own urges enough to care about the subject.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:55 PM
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What Wesley said.
  #30  
Old 12-06-2018, 03:28 PM
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I do want to comment that I don't know why you have to be some deep philosophical thinker to be an atheist. [....] Trump strikes me as the kind of person who certainly could be an atheist just because he woke up one morning and decided he was.
But that's just it. Trump didn't decide anything at all. He never gave a thought to whether there is a God. He's just indifferent to the whole issue. You might say that makes him an atheist, but in general someone who is an atheist has made a judgment or decision of some sort. That is, an atheist is not a person who doesn't believe there is a god, they believe there is not a god.
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:08 PM
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If you asked him, I bet he'd say there is a god. I doubt if his religious thinking goes much deeper than that, though.

At some time during the 2016 campaign, he gave a speech at some religious convention. At that time, he told one of the leaders of it that he'd never sinned. This, of course, speaks more to his narcissism than anything else. But it probably shows a reflexive religious belief: he believes in god because most other people do.
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:18 PM
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[...]he believes in god because most other people do.
I think he pretends to believe in god. And it's just enough to allow his fan base to pretend to believe him.
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:31 PM
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I think he pretends to believe in god. And it's just enough to allow his fan base to pretend to believe him.
This too, and a lot of them ALSO think he is a god, or at least a demigod, and that so many of them also claim to be Christian themselves is the most frightening thing of all.

MHO.

When he was campaigning, he did attend a Presbyterian church in my area, and as he was walking in, he derisively tossed some cash into a bowl that was actually the Communion platter. That indicated to me that he knew nothing about their services; I've attended Presbyterian churches over the years, and the collection plate is passed after the sermon. This is true for most mainstream Protestant churches.

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  #34  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:36 PM
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That is, an atheist is not a person who doesn't believe there is a god, they believe there is not a god.
As an atheist who absolutely despises Donald Trump, I have to say there's a fair amount of "No True Scotsman" arguing going on in this thread. In fact, lots of atheists over the years have argued that atheists are simply people who "don't believe there is a god" (An Introduction to Atheism from way back in 1997; the RationalWiki article on "Atheism"; and something I wrote on this very board, a long, long time ago).

Trump may well be an atheist. He certainly doesn't strike me as any kind of good Christian, although that, of course, does not make him an atheist; he may believe in some kind of God or Higher Power (even in a Higher Power not named "Donald Trump") without holding to (or having much knowledge or understanding of) the tenets of Christianity.

Whether or not Trump is really a Christian, some kind of non-Christian theist, or an atheist, he certainly won handily among Christians in America. According to Pew Research, Trump won all major theological subsets of American Christianity: Protestants/other Christians (58% for Trump to 39% for Clinton); Catholics (52% to 45%); and Mormons (61% to 25%). You have to break things down by religion and "race" or ethnicity to start finding large groups of Christians that Trump didn't win: Hispanic Catholics went for Clinton, 67% to 26%. Conversely, white "born again" Evangelicals went for Trump over Clinton by a whopping 81% to 16% margin.

And who did the "none of the above" Americans vote for? (A group that includes capital-A Atheists, "apatheists", "spiritual but not religious", people who have basically made up their own religion but in any event sleep in on Sundays, and so forth): We went for the woman I like to call "the Methodist church lady" over our Possible-Fellow-Nonbeliever by 68% to 26%. Clinton also easily carried Jews (71% to 24%) and "other religions" (e.g., Hindus, and of course Muslims; 62% to 29%).

The problem with Trump isn't that he is or isn't an atheist. The problem with Trump is that he's an asshole.
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  #35  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:57 PM
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Trump is an apatheist, he is too consumed by his narcissism, lust and craving for adulation to care about things like philosophy.

Obama may have been an atheist, but I doubt Trump is. Trump just doesn't care about anything other than himself enough to ponder the question.
I doubt Obama is an atheist. He may not be a Jimmy Carter type devout Christian but he is too conservative and too black to be an atheist.
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:58 PM
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too black to be an atheist.
WTH does that mean?
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Old 12-06-2018, 06:06 PM
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Huh? It's very well known what church Trump favors. He doesn't actually visit that church on Sundays ( he golfs instead) , but he gets regular personal attention from the "pastor" Paula White. She preaches the "prosperity gospel". It basically means that if you're rich, that means that God chose you to be rich because you're special and he rewards you. To be seen rich is to be seen as blessed by God.

And if you're poor, well, that means you're quite literally undeserving. To be poor, equals being a loser, equals being a bad person.

Such a religion fits Trump perfectly. https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ous-presidency
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  #38  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:09 PM
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WTH does that mean?
It means he identifies with the black community, which is by and large sincerely religious. Churches are at the heart of most black communities. He's a community organizer. It doesn't make any sense to me that he would identify as an atheist.
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Old 12-06-2018, 06:54 PM
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Whether or not Trump is really a Christian, some kind of non-Christian theist, or an atheist, he certainly won handily among Christians in America. According to Pew Research, Trump won all major theological subsets of American Christianity: Protestants/other Christians (58% for Trump to 39% for Clinton); Catholics (52% to 45%); and Mormons (61% to 25%). You have to break things down by religion and "race" or ethnicity to start finding large groups of Christians that Trump didn't win: Hispanic Catholics went for Clinton, 67% to 26%. Conversely, white "born again" Evangelicals went for Trump over Clinton by a whopping 81% to 16% margin.
That's a misreading of the data. White Evangelicals made up half of the Protestant electorate and they favored Trump by incredibly huge amounts. That means that every other Protestant group did not favor Trump. Only 35% of non-"white, evangelicals" voted for Trump and 59% went for Clinton. Mainlines and minorities overwhelmingly favored the "Methodist church-lady" but the insane Evangelical vote overwhelmed them in the overall category.
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Old 12-06-2018, 06:59 PM
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When I was a kid, I assumed I believed in god but never really thought about it. Eventually I realized I didn’t. God is one of many things that Trump doesn’t think about.
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Old 12-06-2018, 07:14 PM
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I think Trump probably assumes there is some kind of God, but that's about as far as he goes. He probably looks at organized religion through the lens of a thoroughly corrupt and venal man; that is he thinks the priests and ministers got themselves a pretty good grift going, and as long as it doesn't interfere with his grift, he'll play along.
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Old 12-06-2018, 07:46 PM
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He doesn't appear to know much about the bible--like plenty of Christians
His apparent sins are not unlike those of Christians
And you say...he's an atheist? Sounds like a typical Christian to me, by the standards you present in the OP.

Where are you going with this? And why does it matter whether or not he's a Christian?
I really donít care what he is. I want to know what others think, and why.
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Old 12-06-2018, 08:11 PM
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I'm not sure he's an atheist, but I am sure he's very, VERY indifferent to it.

Evangelicals don't care about that. He's basically their Cyrus the Great.
This seems about right to me.
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Old 12-06-2018, 08:31 PM
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I doubt Obama is an atheist. He may not be a Jimmy Carter type devout Christian but he is too conservative and too black to be an atheist.
My opinion is that Obama was putting on a front because he knows being involved in the church is necessary to get ahead in politics.

I agree with Hitchens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITsYUjv_aEA

I don't think Obama attended sunday services either.

Either way, Obama is highly intelligent, and intelligence is negatively correlated with religiosity, so there is also that factor. Not to say there are no religious intelligent people, but its less likely the higher your IQ.
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Old 12-06-2018, 08:36 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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That's a misreading of the data. White Evangelicals made up half of the Protestant electorate and they favored Trump by incredibly huge amounts. That means that every other Protestant group did not favor Trump. Only 35% of non-"white, evangelicals" voted for Trump and 59% went for Clinton. Mainlines and minorities overwhelmingly favored the "Methodist church-lady" but the insane Evangelical vote overwhelmed them in the overall category.
White evangelicals made up 26% of voters in 2016, they voted Trump 80%.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

So yeah, thats about 21% of the 46% of the vote that Trump won.
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  #46  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:45 PM
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It means he identifies with the black community, which is by and large sincerely religious. Churches are at the heart of most black communities. He's a community organizer. It doesn't make any sense to me that he would identify as an atheist.
Gotcha. And he doesn't identify as an atheist.
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Old 12-06-2018, 08:48 PM
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I wouldn't either, were I involved in American politics. We're by and large deemed pretty untrustworthy in the US, as puzzling as that is.
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  #48  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:32 PM
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Trump is an opportunistic conman - he believes (or professes to believe) whatever it takes to sell whatever bullshit he is selling. He is willing, and quite often does, switch beliefs as they suit his needs - sometimes in the same sentence.
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:48 PM
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I'm not sure he's an atheist, but I am sure he's very, VERY indifferent to it.
I'd agree with this.

Trump was asked several times during the election about asking God for forgiveness and he always responded with some form of, "I'm never wrong so why should I do that?"

Religiosity requires a certain amount of humbleness - a quality which he simply does not possess.
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Old 12-06-2018, 10:13 PM
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He doesn't think deeply enough to be an atheist. He's much too pragmatic.
I wouldn't have said pragmatic. I think dumb is the word I would have gone with in that context.

From all signs, the only thing Trump thinks about is himself. So his inner thoughts on religion are questions like "Does this help me or hurt me?"

Trump pretends to be a Christian because it benefits him in a way he can understand - it makes people vote for him.
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