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Old 12-12-2018, 03:22 PM
brossa brossa is offline
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Do modern American Christian churches have official positions on the salvation of Jews?

Belief in Jesus as the son of God and part of the Trinity seems to be a prerequisite for eternal salvation in most Christian faiths. On the face of it, this would seem to exclude Jews, who do not share that belief. Historical Jewish-Christian relations are something of a delicate subject for many Christian groups, and the current sets of dogmas for modern Christian groups in America w/r/t the salvation of Jews seems to be tough for me to find. Historically, there have been Christian sects that stated that no Jew could enter Heaven without faith in Jesus and the Trinity (thus Jews should be evangelized), while others proposed a dual path to salvation in which Christians are saved by faith while Jews are saved by observance of the Law (thus Jews do not need to be evangelized). Modern American Christian churches do not go out of their way, it seems, to publicize what their beliefs are on this topic.

The Roman Catholic church, for example, seems to reject the dual path to salvation, saying that all salvation comes through Jesus, while allowing that Jews can be saved without faith in Jesus through a mechanism which "remains an unfathomable divine mystery." The RCC does not support institutional evangelization of Jews, but does call for individual acts of evangelism.

I realize that there are a lot of branches of modern American Christianity, but do any of them have explicit positions as to the salvation of Jews? Some Evangelical Protestants are very pro-Israel and pro-Jewish, perhaps as part of their eschatological framework, but do they think that those Jews are saved, or potentially saved, or are the Jews just necessary to keep around so that Biblical prophesies of the End Times can come true?

I'm not interested in a debate, but rather in what the official positions are, if they exist, or alternatively whether a position is 'conspicuously absent'.
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Old 12-12-2018, 03:52 PM
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I think it's largely a "we pray for them" thing among the mainstream Christians. While they respect that the Jews are God's chosen people, and Jesus came from Jewish roots, they resent the Jews for not agreeing that Jesus is the Messiah. Plus, there's always been a prevailing underlying opinion among old school Christians that Jews control wealth, grease the wheels of liberal policies they don't like, and somehow threaten racial purity. Jews not believing in an afterlife also grinds their groins.

Still, these American Christians believe its their duty to side with Israel in case the next war is THE war. That way, they get a gold-lined ticket to Heaven because they protected God's ungrateful children.
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:10 PM
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I think it's largely a "we pray for them" thing among the mainstream Christians. While they respect that the Jews are God's chosen people, and Jesus came from Jewish roots, they resent the Jews for not agreeing that Jesus is the Messiah. Plus, there's always been a prevailing underlying opinion among old school Christians that Jews control wealth, grease the wheels of liberal policies they don't like, and somehow threaten racial purity. Jews not believing in an afterlife also grinds their groins.

Still, these American Christians believe its their duty to side with Israel in case the next war is THE war. That way, they get a gold-lined ticket to Heaven because they protected God's ungrateful children.
I grew up in very conservative pentecostal and Southern Baptist churches, and this isn't at all accurate to my experience.

I didn't see any "resentment" of Jews. There was no talk of Jewish conspiracies, no eugenics or "racial purity" ideas; and what Jews may or may not believe about the afterlife was not relevant to anything. Those ideas are completely absent in American evangelicalism. Jews were absolutely revered, if there was any opinion on them at all.

However, the belief that it is a Christian duty to "stand with Israel" is very strong. It is definitely believed that if America protects Israel, God will protect America; and if America turns its back on Israel, God will turn his back on America.
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:21 PM
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The rather liberal church I kinda belong to sez that the Jews (and pretty much all religions) will go to heaven if they lead virtuous lives. Some mild debate if that is THE Heaven or their own heaven. Having Jesus as your saviour is just a "fastpass".

Few are damned forever, just those that led others into sin and won't repent. It is assumed that Hitler, Stalin, etc will never repent.
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:55 PM
brossa brossa is offline
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I grew up in very conservative pentecostal and Southern Baptist churches...
...Jews were absolutely revered, if there was any opinion on them at all...
...It is definitely believed that if America protects Israel, God will protect America; and if America turns its back on Israel, God will turn his back on America.
But is there a doctrine as to what happens to individual Jews who die without being born again, or otherwise embracing Jesus and the Trinity? It's possible to hold Jews in high regard and to defend Israel as a means to an end, while still thinking that Jews don't go to Heaven unless they become Pentecostal, or Lutheran, or what have you, just like the unsaved Muslims or Buddhists or Hindus.

I'd like to separate a faith's policy on Israel from from its teachings about individual Jewish souls, if possible. It's the sort of sects that are huge Israel supporters but lack a specific dogma on Jewish salvation that I had in mind when I mentioned 'conspicuously absent'.
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:56 PM
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The rather liberal church I kinda belong to sez that the Jews (and pretty much all religions) will go to heaven if they lead virtuous lives. Some mild debate if that is THE Heaven or their own heaven. Having Jesus as your saviour is just a "fastpass".

Few are damned forever, just those that led others into sin and won't repent. It is assumed that Hitler, Stalin, etc will never repent.
What religious group is this?
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Old 12-12-2018, 05:12 PM
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But is there a doctrine as to what happens to individual Jews who die without being born again, or otherwise embracing Jesus and the Trinity? It's possible to hold Jews in high regard and to defend Israel as a means to an end, while still thinking that Jews don't go to Heaven unless they become Pentecostal, or Lutheran, or what have you, just like the unsaved Muslims or Buddhists or Hindus.

I'd like to separate a faith's policy on Israel from from its teachings about individual Jewish souls, if possible. It's the sort of sects that are huge Israel supporters but lack a specific dogma on Jewish salvation that I had in mind when I mentioned 'conspicuously absent'.
Ahh yes, they would definitely say that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation. So a Jewish person, no matter how pious, who dies without faith in Jesus would go to hell.

I would say that's pretty standard among American evangelicals.

Last edited by EscAlaMike; 12-12-2018 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 12-12-2018, 05:23 PM
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I don't know about other sects, but the Catholic Church does not actually hold that anyone is without salvation. The sacraments and so on are conduits of God's grace, but God is merciful and all-powerful, and can if He chooses extend His grace to anyone He wants to. In fact, it's consistent with Catholic theology to have no human souls at all end up in Hell, and some Catholic scholars have suggested that that might be the case.
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Old 12-12-2018, 06:03 PM
brossa brossa is offline
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Yeah, the Catholic position is that God saves whoever He wants to, so Jews/Muslims/atheists can all get to Heaven too, by means of that "divine Mystery". But ultimately that salvation comes through Jesus or via Jesus somehow.
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Old 12-12-2018, 06:24 PM
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Ahh yes, they would definitely say that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation. So a Jewish person, no matter how pious, who dies without faith in Jesus would go to hell.

I would say that's pretty standard among American evangelicals.
So, we're revered but we're going to hell. About right. When a Baptist came to my door one day I told him no thanks, I'm Jewish (no reason to bring up the atheism bit) and he launched into a spiel about me better believe in Jesus or I'm going to hell.
Plus, my understanding is that the existence of Israel is necessary for the end times, and when that happens we all die in horrible ways.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm talking about evangelicals here, not Catholics by the way, and not moderate Protestant churches.
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Old 12-12-2018, 06:26 PM
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The theological hair-splitting on this is the phrase "accept Jesus." How does one accept Jesus?

Some think it means making a declaration of faith

Some think you don't have to declare anything, but must "accept" Jesus in your heart.

Some think it requires some sort of action in addition to faith

And some think that living a "Christ-like life" in all facets is tantamount to "accepting Jesus" even without an actual declaration of faith. That's how the envelope gets pushed far enough for Jews, Muslims, Hindus and even stone-cold atheists to experience salvation.

Of course, the ability to reconcile seemingly contradictory beliefs isn't limited to religion.
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Old 12-12-2018, 08:10 PM
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From the United Methodist Book of Resolutions
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We believe that just as God is steadfastly faithful to the biblical covenant in Jesus Christ, likewise God is steadfastly faithful to the biblical covenant with the Jewish people, and no covenantal relationship is invalidated by the other.
Our full expression of United Methodist - Jewish relations can be found at

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/u...wish-relations

Last edited by senoy; 12-12-2018 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 12-12-2018, 08:19 PM
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Ahh yes, they would definitely say that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation. So a Jewish person, no matter how pious, who dies without faith in Jesus would go to hell.

I would say that's pretty standard among American evangelicals.
"They" would, would "they"? Not to discount your anecdotal experience, but my anecdotal experience is different.
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Old 12-12-2018, 09:48 PM
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So, we're revered but we're going to hell. About right. When a Baptist came to my door one day I told him no thanks, I'm Jewish (no reason to bring up the atheism bit) and he launched into a spiel about me better believe in Jesus or I'm going to hell.
Plus, my understanding is that the existence of Israel is necessary for the end times, and when that happens we all die in horrible ways.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm talking about evangelicals here, not Catholics by the way, and not moderate Protestant churches.
Yep, that's about right.

For the record, I am no longer an evangelical, lest anyone accuse me of such.
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Old 12-12-2018, 09:49 PM
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"They" would, would "they"? Not to discount your anecdotal experience, but my anecdotal experience is different.
Interesting. What's your experience?
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Old 12-12-2018, 10:11 PM
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From the United Methodist Book of Resolutions


Our full expression of United Methodist - Jewish relations can be found at

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/u...wish-relations
From what I can read there, the United Methodists are very aware of the sad history of Jewish persecution at the hands of Christians, and wish to avoid repeating those errors; however like the Catholics they support individual evangelization of Jews and state that salvation comes only through being born again through Jesus Christ. They maintain that God's Covenant with the Jews is still in force; they don't address Jewish salvation specifically anywhere that I can see.
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Old 12-12-2018, 10:39 PM
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From what I can read there, the United Methodists are very aware of the sad history of Jewish persecution at the hands of Christians, and wish to avoid repeating those errors; however like the Catholics they support individual evangelization of Jews and state that salvation comes only through being born again through Jesus Christ. They maintain that God's Covenant with the Jews is still in force; they don't address Jewish salvation specifically anywhere that I can see.
I guess the question is whether God made a covenant with Jews to save them. I believe that our denomination would say, Yes. There clearly is a covenant of reward for good behaviour. Whether that reward is temporal is a matter of debate. The concept of Heaven predates Christianity, but may not have been part of Classical Judaism. Regardless, without a supercessionist stance, we would assume that whatever happened to Jews of old would continue. Christ specifically told a parable regarding Abraham being in heaven as well as Lazarus, so it should be assumed that the reward for good behaviour is eternal. I think our stance largely falls on the side of salvation for Jews.

We would not use the words born again, that's more an Evangelical term. We talk of salvation as achieved through unmerited and unwarranted grace. Christ's sacrifice allowed that gracevto enter the world, but God bestows it without prejudice. From the book of resolutions
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While we as Christians respond faithfully to the call to proclaim the gospel in all places, we can never presume to know the full extent of God's work in the world, and we recognize the reality of God's activity outside the Christian church. It is central to our faith that salvation is accomplished not by human beings, but by God. We know that judgment as to the ultimate salvation of persons from any faith community, including Christianity and Judaism, belongs to God alone.
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Old 12-12-2018, 10:49 PM
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Ahh yes, they would definitely say that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation. So a Jewish person, no matter how pious, who dies without faith in Jesus would go to hell.

I would say that's pretty standard among American evangelicals.
That was certainly the message in the evangelical-type churches I was brought to as a kid - here's the relevant Chick tract.

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Old 12-12-2018, 10:54 PM
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Not a question my church (Assemblies of God) covers in their doctrine.

I'd say the main Scriptural concept is in Romans chapters 9-11. In it, Paul argues that Judaism turned away from God in his time, and broke their side of the covenant. However, because God doesn't ever go back on a promise, he concludes by saying all of Israel will be saved.

Exactly how it is parsed varies. Some believe "all Israel" only refers to the "remnant" who will accept that Jesus is the Messiah. Some believe that, once Jesus comes back and fulfills all the Jewish requirements for the Messiah, he will be accepted by all Jews as well, and thus they all are saved. Some believe that those who are already dead will also get to come. Some believe that Jews die, go to heaven, see Jesus, are forced to accept him, and then make it into Heaven. Still some believe that Jesus will not come back until everyone in Israel is converted to Christianity.
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Old 12-12-2018, 11:16 PM
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Yeah, the Catholic position is that God saves whoever He wants to, so Jews/Muslims/atheists can all get to Heaven too, by means of that "divine Mystery". But ultimately that salvation comes through Jesus or via Jesus somehow.
That was my understanding from the Catholic church teachings I grew up with. In fact, we learned about the Pharisees as hypocrites where professing and crowing about their devotion was not the path to God's favour. I remember one year in grade school one of the poems we studied was Abou Ben Adhem by Leigh Hunt.

Quote:
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men."

The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest
Kind of a pretty simple message for a Catholic school curriculum.

I do recall reading that some sects put a premium on recognizing Jesus as saviour, such that heathens who dies never hearing the "message" may go to heaven, but those who had heard the message and rejected it were damned - hence the desire to go forth and convert everyone. But I never heard that as the Catholic position.
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Old 12-12-2018, 11:20 PM
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Yeah, the Catholic position is that God saves whoever He wants to, so Jews/Muslims/atheists can all get to Heaven too, by means of that "divine Mystery". But ultimately that salvation comes through Jesus or via Jesus somehow.
Not quite. The Catholic position is that God offers salvation to all: we still can reject it. It's part of the whole "free will" thing. By Catholic theology, my Grandfather From Hell would be in Hell (that is, not in God's Presence) not because God rejects him, but because he rejected God; because he was convinced that the choices he'd made put him in Hell and still chose to make them; because he believed he was going to Hell.
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Old 12-13-2018, 02:14 AM
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The theological hair-splitting on this is the phrase "accept Jesus." How does one accept Jesus?

Some think it means making a declaration of faith

Some think you don't have to declare anything, but must "accept" Jesus in your heart.

Some think it requires some sort of action in addition to faith

And some think that living a "Christ-like life" in all facets is tantamount to "accepting Jesus" even without an actual declaration of faith. That's how the envelope gets pushed far enough for Jews, Muslims, Hindus and even stone-cold atheists to experience salvation.

Of course, the ability to reconcile seemingly contradictory beliefs isn't limited to religion.
Actually, the operative phrase is "getting saved." "Accepting Jesus" is a modern interloper invented by liberals who no longer wanted the old-fashioned type of religion that their grandparents had. And, unfortunately, it has infected a lot of Christians who are relatively conservative on most points.
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Old 12-13-2018, 10:13 AM
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Well, until the Mormon church officially stopped doing baptisms for the dead for Jews following outside pressure, that's what they did. Since Mormons believe one must be baptized in order to go to heaven, they figure most people will accept the baptism by proxy once they get the "straight dope" on the afterlife, which I presume , once you get there, bolsters the case for Mormonism (taught in "spirit prison", a kind of temporary purgatory that that is the closest thing to a "hell" in Mormonism). Mormons believe that baptisms they can't do now (for example, people with no genealogical records) will get taken care of somehow during the thousand years after the second coming of Christ.

P.S. I am a lapsed member and am offering a general viewpoint and don't claim to speak for the Church.

Last edited by Ashtura; 12-13-2018 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 12-13-2018, 10:16 AM
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AIUI/IIRC, most Protestant Christian churches these days (I don't know about the others) maintain that Jews have to trust in Christ for salvation just like anyone else, and that there is nothing "special" or exceptional about them, since this is now the New Testament era.
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Old 12-13-2018, 10:49 AM
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If Hitler's in Heaven, I don't want to go there.
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Old 12-13-2018, 11:42 AM
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I think it is impossible to generalize as broadly as "American Christian churches". Teachings run the entire gamut.

I was raised Roman Catholic (I got better) in the 60s and 70s. What I was taught on the matter varied tremendously on who was doing the teaching - old nun vs. young nun vs. priest. Possibly the dogma was in flux (kind of an oxymoron there) and it settled out after I was done with the whole religion thing. Last thing I was taught was living a good life gets you into heaven, but being a good Catholic qualifies you for booster packs (sacraments) and guidance which makes that goal easier.

My wife was raised in a very liberal church (UCC in Massachusetts), they basically said the same thing but without the need for the booster packs (and with a broader definition of "good").

In neither case was belief a necessary condition for living a good life.

Conversely, I have a couple of friends that were raised in an extremely conservative church (Church of Christ in rural Indiana) who were taught that not only did you have to believe in Christ to make it to heaven, you had to believe in their version of Christ's teachings. Not sure how far outside their particular sect you could be and still qualify, but they made damned clear that no Catholics need apply...
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Old 12-13-2018, 11:47 AM
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So, we're revered but we're going to hell. About right. When a Baptist came to my door one day I told him no thanks, I'm Jewish (no reason to bring up the atheism bit) and he launched into a spiel about me better believe in Jesus or I'm going to hell.
Plus, my understanding is that the existence of Israel is necessary for the end times, and when that happens we all die in horrible ways.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm talking about evangelicals here, not Catholics by the way, and not moderate Protestant churches.
The idea of salvation for Jews apart from Jesus is not something all evangelicals agree on. Most believe that it is not possible others that it could be possible.

The existence of Israel is necessary for most eschatological scenarios in evangelicalism but for the most popular scenarios the next step is that Jews from all over the world move to Israel. Many of them are then converted to Christianity and are raptured with the rest of the Christians. Those who do not convert are not singled out but would share in the general misery of the end times and then the final judgement.
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Old 12-13-2018, 01:12 PM
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I guess the question is whether God made a covenant with Jews to save them. I believe that our denomination would say, Yes. There clearly is a covenant of reward for good behaviour. Whether that reward is temporal is a matter of debate. The concept of Heaven predates Christianity, but may not have been part of Classical Judaism. Regardless, without a supercessionist stance, we would assume that whatever happened to Jews of old would continue. Christ specifically told a parable regarding Abraham being in heaven as well as Lazarus, so it should be assumed that the reward for good behaviour is eternal. I think our stance largely falls on the side of salvation for Jews.

We would not use the words born again, that's more an Evangelical term. We talk of salvation as achieved through unmerited and unwarranted grace. Christ's sacrifice allowed that gracevto enter the world, but God bestows it without prejudice. From the book of resolutions
That's pretty much what I've always heard- put really simply, God's covenant with the Jews wasn't invalidated by the coming of Christ, so whatever deal they had would presumably continue as-is. However, the teaching was also that Christ is for everyone, including Jews who choose to convert.

As far as Catholicism goes, they more or less believe in the "anonymous Christian" doctrine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_Christian)
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Old 12-13-2018, 01:54 PM
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AIUI/IIRC, most Protestant Christian churches these days (I don't know about the others) maintain that Jews have to trust in Christ for salvation just like anyone else, and that there is nothing "special" or exceptional about them, since this is now the New Testament era.
This has shown to be incorrect based upon what others have said.
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Old 12-13-2018, 01:56 PM
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If Hitler's in Heaven, I don't want to go there.

It is said that Hitler will never repent, and thus fry forever.
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Old 12-13-2018, 01:57 PM
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The idea of salvation for Jews apart from Jesus is not something all evangelicals agree on. Most believe that it is not possible others that it could be possible.
.
I am not sure about the "most", since catholicism thinks it is possible.
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:14 PM
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That's pretty much what I've always heard- put really simply, God's covenant with the Jews wasn't invalidated by the coming of Christ, so whatever deal they had would presumably continue as-is. However, the teaching was also that Christ is for everyone, including Jews who choose to convert.
A Jew who chooses to convert is no longer a Jew, so this is kind of meaningless. That a Jew who does choose to convert is saved is kind of obvious from the early history of Christianity.
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:16 PM
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Not quite. The Catholic position is that God offers salvation to all: we still can reject it. It's part of the whole "free will" thing. By Catholic theology, my Grandfather From Hell would be in Hell (that is, not in God's Presence) not because God rejects him, but because he rejected God; because he was convinced that the choices he'd made put him in Hell and still chose to make them; because he believed he was going to Hell.
Reject God or rejects Jesus? I'd say that many Jews forcibly converted or worse never rejected God, but did reject Jesus as a path to salvation - not that salvation means much for us.
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:16 PM
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A Jew who chooses to convert is no longer a Jew, so this is kind of meaningless. ...
Cite?
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:17 PM
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If Hitler's in Heaven, I don't want to go there.
What's the alternative - go to Hell?
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:25 PM
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I am not sure about the "most", since catholicism thinks it is possible.
Catholics are not considered evangelicals, who are Protestant. This thread seems to be mainly interested in evangelical viewpoints re: the Jews.
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:37 PM
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Actually, the operative phrase is "getting saved." "Accepting Jesus" is a modern interloper invented by liberals who no longer wanted the old-fashioned type of religion that their grandparents had. And, unfortunately, it has infected a lot of Christians who are relatively conservative on most points.
The first time I heard the phrase "accept Jesus" was in the 1970s in Kentucky. The complete phrase was "Do you accept Jesus as your Lord and personal savior?" The people who liked to ask that question were evangelicals who were not "liberal" by any stretch.
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:39 PM
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As far as "official" positions, I belong to the Episcopal (Anglican outside the US) Church and I'm not aware of any other major denominations that have fewer official positions on anything than the Anglicans do. The whole church was founded as a compromise to try to avoid religious schism and fighting, broad enough to encompass High-Church Catholicism and low-church protestant evangelicalism. So you don't even have to leave the Episcopal church to find a whole gamut of opinions on who is saved and the status of the Jews.

But the opinion I most commonly hear goes like this:
- There is no salvation apart from Jesus
- That doesn't necessarily mean that a person has to understand or recognize that Jesus is the One who has facilitated their salvation/atonement
- Therefore, it is possible (some would say common; some would say universal) for people to be saved outside of knowing Jesus. That would include the Jews.
- Apart from the previous argument, God made a covenant with the Jews and God doesn't break covenants. Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of the messianic prophecies, and it doesn't matter if the Jews accept him or not. The Jews are God's chosen people who have a special standing with God and been saved by the covenant God made with them from the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through the prophets and including through Jesus.
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:46 PM
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A Jew who chooses to convert is no longer a Jew, so this is kind of meaningless. That a Jew who does choose to convert is saved is kind of obvious from the early history of Christianity.
Of course. I just meant that Jews who convert aren't bound by that original covenant any longer, which as you say is kind of obvious from the history. But not everyone knows that history, so I went ahead and said it.

Now whether or not they're still Jews- I think that depends on the definition of Jew; was Peter still a Jew? How about Benjamin Disraeli? Clearly ethnic Jews, but not in a religious sense any longer.
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Old 12-13-2018, 05:39 PM
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<…>

As far as Catholicism goes, they more or less believe in the "anonymous Christian" doctrine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_Christian)
There's also the doctrine of Baptism of Desire. Strictly speaking it applies to someone who wants to be baptized but dies before having the opportunity (e.g., a "foxhole conversion"); but if you look at it sideways and squint a little — and let's face it, RCC philosophers and theologians have a lot of practice at doing exactly that — it can be expanded to cover any number of other situations.
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Old 12-13-2018, 06:02 PM
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A Jew who chooses to convert is no longer a Jew, so this is kind of meaningless. That a Jew who does choose to convert is saved is kind of obvious from the early history of Christianity.
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Cite?
Seriously?

If you accept Jesus Christ as your savior you're a Christian.... unless you're the sort of person who believes the Jews are so special they can't possibly become Christians, only "messianic Jews" or "Jews for Jesus" or whatever they're being called these days. Which, frankly, is pretty damn insulting and bigoted.
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Old 12-13-2018, 06:19 PM
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I think it's largely a "we pray for them" thing among the mainstream Christians. While they respect that the Jews are God's chosen people, and Jesus came from Jewish roots, they resent the Jews for not agreeing that Jesus is the Messiah. Plus, there's always been a prevailing underlying opinion among old school Christians that Jews control wealth, grease the wheels of liberal policies they don't like, and somehow threaten racial purity. Jews not believing in an afterlife also grinds their groins.

Still, these American Christians believe its their duty to side with Israel in case the next war is THE war. That way, they get a gold-lined ticket to Heaven because they protected God's ungrateful children.
years ago, Cecil answered whether Martin Luther was anti-semitic (his work seems to)
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Old 12-13-2018, 06:20 PM
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It is said that Hitler will never repent, and thus fry forever.
But if Hitler were in heaven with all the folks he persecuted wouldn’t that be hell for him?
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Old 12-13-2018, 07:25 PM
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Quoth Nava:

Not quite. The Catholic position is that God offers salvation to all: we still can reject it. It's part of the whole "free will" thing. By Catholic theology, my Grandfather From Hell would be in Hell (that is, not in God's Presence) not because God rejects him, but because he rejected God; because he was convinced that the choices he'd made put him in Hell and still chose to make them; because he believed he was going to Hell.
The Catholic position is that we can reject salvation, but that doesn't necessarily mean that anyone ever actually has. It's possible that your grandfather, or Hitler, or anyone else, repented at the last moment, and there's no way we, still among the living, can know they haven't.
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Old 12-13-2018, 09:08 PM
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If you accept Jesus Christ as your savior you're a Christian.... unless you're the sort of person who believes the Jews are so special they can't possibly become Christians, only "messianic Jews" or "Jews for Jesus" or whatever they're being called these days. Which, frankly, is pretty damn insulting and bigoted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is...other_religion

It's not that simple. Many Orthodox Jews (and others) consider a Jew always a Jew no matter if they convert to another religion. If they choose to return the fold they can become a full member of the community without conversion to Judaism, because they are still Jews. And this may carry on through the matrilineal descendants of such "lapsed Jews" although that will depend on the community involved.
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Old 12-13-2018, 10:00 PM
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Catholics are not considered evangelicals, who are Protestant. This thread seems to be mainly interested in evangelical viewpoints re: the Jews.
But that's not the Op: "Do modern American Christian churches... "

Evangelicals are a minority.
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Old 12-13-2018, 10:02 PM
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Seriously?

If you accept Jesus Christ as your savior you're a Christian.... unless you're the sort of person who believes the Jews are so special they can't possibly become Christians, only "messianic Jews" or "Jews for Jesus" or whatever they're being called these days. Which, frankly, is pretty damn insulting and bigoted.

Yes, but do the Jews say you are no longer a Jew? And the answer is, not surprisingly- yes & no.

https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...ill-Jewish.htm
Apparently, Jewishness is about neither religion nor race. Unlike a race, you can get in, but unlike religion, once you’re in you can’t get out. As with Achan, once you are a part of this people, you are the entire people. As Israel is eternal, so your bond with them is irreversible, unbreakable and eternal.

So, yes- seriously.

Last edited by DrDeth; 12-13-2018 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 12-13-2018, 10:44 PM
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So that’s what Hotel California is really about.
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Old 12-13-2018, 10:46 PM
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So that’s what Hotel California is really about.
Oddly that does fit one line perfectly.......

and what a mohel does fits another.....

Last edited by DrDeth; 12-13-2018 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 12-13-2018, 11:43 PM
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Of course. I just meant that Jews who convert aren't bound by that original covenant any longer, which as you say is kind of obvious from the history. But not everyone knows that history, so I went ahead and said it.
Gee. I'm not even close to being an expert on early Christianity, and I knew that. But I've learned to try and not underestimate ignorance, so I don't doubt you.
Quote:
Now whether or not they're still Jews- I think that depends on the definition of Jew; was Peter still a Jew? How about Benjamin Disraeli? Clearly ethnic Jews, but not in a religious sense any longer.
Disraeli? Certainly not. I doubt his political supporters would have thought he was. And as for Peter, who knows what he really thought. If he still viewed Jesus as Messiah, yes, if he somehow accepted more or less modern Christianity, no. The real situation is probably somewhere in the middle.
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