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Old 12-15-2018, 04:14 AM
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Conservatives deserting the Republican Party

The Chief Justice of the California Supreme Court, Tani Cantil-Sakauye, has renounced her Republican registration citing partisan misbehavior by Trump, and by the Senate during the Brett Kavanaugh hearing.

Kansas State Senator Barbara Bollier has become a Democrat after 43 years as a Republican, citing morality and the GOP's 'absurd' stance on LGBTQ issues.

Top conservative thinkers who've left the GOP and are urging people to vote for Democrats include George Will and Max Boot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Boot
I'm not even sure I want to call myself a conservative anymore, because I don't know what conservative means anymore other than 'Trump toady.'
Steve Schmidt is a top Republican strategist, serving in high White House positions under Bush-Cheney, and as Communications Director of the National Republican Congressional Committee, etc.
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Originally Posted by Steve Schmidt
the Republican Party ... is corrupt, indecent and immoral. With the exception of a few Governors like Baker, Hogan and Kasich it is filled with feckless cowards who disgrace and dishonor the legacies of the party's greatest leaders ... Today the GOP has become a danger to our democracy and our values.
...
This Independent voter will be aligned with the only party left in America that stands for what is right and decent and remains fidelitous to our Republic, objective truth, the rule of law and our Allies. That party is the Democratic Party.
Several former Senators and Congressmen have left the GOP recently: David Jolly, Gordon Humphrey, Joe Scarborough, etc.

Republicans who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016 include President G.H.W. Bush, Henry Paulson, Colin Powell, Christine Todd Whitman, John Warner, etc. In addition many, like Gov. John Kasich, voted for a 3rd-party candidate or a write-in.

One top Republican who's left the GOP cited Susan Collins' vote to confirm Kavanaugh as evidence that there's nothing left in the Party worth salvaging. She is supposedly the beacon of hope for GOP moderation and sanity, yet sacrificed all principles to make a dishonest and fawning speech in support of this misogynist perjuring hyper-partisan judge.

Why haven't more thinking Americans left the GOP? Can we retain any respect for those who haven't?
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Old 12-15-2018, 05:23 AM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is online now
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Quote:
Why haven't more thinking Americans left the GOP?
What's the Venn diagram of 'thinking Americans' and 'Republicans' look like anymore?
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:29 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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What did any of those people, or the departing Senators and Congressfolk making all of their tut-tutting final speeches, do to prevent any of that happening with their party while they still could? They followed the party line like they always did, didn't they?

Let 'em just STFU. Nobody cares what they think.
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Old 12-15-2018, 10:38 AM
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I left the Republican party during the 2016 election. It was a long time in coming, as I'd become increasingly concerned with the direction of the party on many issues. But the nomination of Trump was the final straw. It was indefensible on so many fronts.

It's not that I like the Dems. But the Pubs are no longer a normal political party. It's been taken over by grifters, kooks, criminals, racists, hucksters, con-men....you name it, they have it.

When I was growing up, most of the crazies were on the Left. That's no longer the case.
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Old 12-15-2018, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
What did any of those people, or the departing Senators and Congressfolk making all of their tut-tutting final speeches, do to prevent any of that happening with their party while they still could? They followed the party line like they always did, didn't they?
How would we know if they did? Maybe as a first step they felt it was better to speak quietly to their colleagues about their concerns rather than air Republican dirty laundry in public. We wouldn't know if any of these people had done that. Having seen that that didn't work they're now going public.

It's never too late to start doing the right thing. Calling people out for not having done it sooner doesn't help matters.
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Old 12-15-2018, 10:50 AM
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Why haven't more thinking Americans left the GOP? Can we retain any respect for those who haven't?
The Right-Wing media industrial complex is still selling the fairy tale that GOP = Real American and Democratic Party = EVIL. Even the rare "thinking" GOP member has a very strong identity bond with the party, in spite of all the nonsense. If there were an alternative party that is not the Dems, and FOX told everyone to go join, then I think you would see an exodus. But, at least so far, that party does not exist, and FOX seems to be Trump all the way.
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Old 12-15-2018, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by survinga View Post
I left the Republican party during the 2016 election. It was a long time in coming, as I'd become increasingly concerned with the direction of the party on many issues. But the nomination of Trump was the final straw. It was indefensible on so many fronts.

It's not that I like the Dems. But the Pubs are no longer a normal political party. It's been taken over by grifters, kooks, criminals, racists, hucksters, con-men....you name it, they have it.

When I was growing up, most of the crazies were on the Left. That's no longer the case.
Even Bill Buckley once famously remarked that "our side has more kooks than theirs does". Maybe it just seemed to you that there were more crazies on the left because they were more vocal, and doing bombings and stuff.

It is worth noting that there does not seem to be enough non-trump conservatives to sustain the Weekly Standard, which has folded.
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Old 12-15-2018, 11:32 AM
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Even Bill Buckley once famously remarked that "our side has more kooks than theirs does". Maybe it just seemed to you that there were more crazies on the left because they were more vocal, and doing bombings and stuff.

It is worth noting that there does not seem to be enough non-trump conservatives to sustain the Weekly Standard, which has folded.
Buckley was quite right. The large majority of political violence in the US is from the right, not the left.

cite: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/...ing-extremists
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Old 12-15-2018, 11:36 AM
Fretful Porpentine Fretful Porpentine is offline
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As much as I'd like to think this is the beginning of some sort of mass exodus from the Republican party, I don't believe it is. What it is, at most, is a slight realignment; upper-middle-class professionals with advanced degrees, formerly a politically mixed demographic, are becoming overwhelmingly Democratic. (Bollier, who is a doctor, would fit into this category, as would most journalists and pundits.) This is not, numerically, a big demographic. It is a vocal demographic, one that does a lot of writing and public speaking and has access to the kind of venues that allow its voice to be heard, but that's not the same thing.
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Old 12-15-2018, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Fretful Porpentine View Post
As much as I'd like to think this is the beginning of some sort of mass exodus from the Republican party, I don't believe it is. What it is, at most, is a slight realignment; upper-middle-class professionals with advanced degrees, formerly a politically mixed demographic, are becoming overwhelmingly Democratic. (Bollier, who is a doctor, would fit into this category, as would most journalists and pundits.) This is not, numerically, a big demographic. It is a vocal demographic, one that does a lot of writing and public speaking and has access to the kind of venues that allow its voice to be heard, but that's not the same thing.
Wellllll, to be fair they do have audiences of readers, viewers, and in the case of elected officials - supporters and voters. So, there is the possibility of some coattail (bandwagon?) effect.
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Last edited by Icarus; 12-15-2018 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 12-15-2018, 12:10 PM
Fretful Porpentine Fretful Porpentine is offline
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Wellllll, to be fair they do have audiences of readers, viewers, and in the case of elected officials - supporters and voters. So, there is the possibility of some coattail (bandwagon?) effect.
That is true, but I'm not convinced the majority of the people who currently identify as Republicans are the type of people who are influenced by, say, George Will in the first place. Mostly, the people who were the kind of Republicans who read George Will have already stopped identifying as Republicans -- not so much because of George Will but because they and George Will were both caught up in this bigger trend, if that makes sense. The current group of Republicans has a different set of opinion leaders and influencers, and I see no reason to think this group isn't still going strong.
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Old 12-15-2018, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
What's the Venn diagram of 'thinking Americans' and 'Republicans' look like anymore?
Don't ask Scott Walker to draw it.
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Old 12-15-2018, 01:18 PM
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I'm still stuck on the Chief Justice of a state talking about politics and her personal partisan affiliation.

Doesn't happen in Canada.
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Old 12-15-2018, 01:19 PM
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It's not that I like the Dems. But the Pubs are no longer a normal political party. It's been taken over by grifters, kooks, criminals, racists, hucksters, con-men....
....mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits...
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Old 12-15-2018, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
What did any of those people, or the departing Senators and Congressfolk making all of their tut-tutting final speeches, do to prevent any of that happening with their party while they still could? They followed the party line like they always did, didn't they?

Let 'em just STFU. Nobody cares what they think.
Well, at least in the case of the person who inspired the thread, Tani Cantil-Sakauye, she's done quite a bit to stand up to the Republican Party and its onslaught on personal rights. As Chief Justice of the California Supreme Court, she told ICE to stay the hell away from California courts when looking to detain suspected improperly present in the country persons. She's worked to reform bail practices, and decriminalize various traffic offenses. I believe that her opinions on the Court have not been particularly "conservative" in orientation, and under her leadership, the California Supreme Court has not been trending particularly conservative, either.
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Old 12-15-2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Fretful Porpentine View Post
As much as I'd like to think this is the beginning of some sort of mass exodus from the Republican party, I don't believe it is. What it is, at most, is a slight realignment; upper-middle-class professionals with advanced degrees, formerly a politically mixed demographic, are becoming overwhelmingly Democratic. (Bollier, who is a doctor, would fit into this category, as would most journalists and pundits.) This is not, numerically, a big demographic. It is a vocal demographic, one that does a lot of writing and public speaking and has access to the kind of venues that allow its voice to be heard, but that's not the same thing.
And they're doing so just at the time when a large part of the Democrats' base is calling for a more leftist/progressive position, as opposed to a swing to center. Fun times.


But anyway, yeah, I'm not sure that we should hold it against them that they continued to identify under the name "Republican" until the wheels came off. I mean, Joe Manchin keeps claiming he's a Democrat.

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Old 12-15-2018, 01:40 PM
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The republicans got 50 million votes for the house in the 2018 midterm. The republicans have done nothing but tried to cover up Trump's crimes.

The vast, vast majority of republican voters are fine with this behavior.
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:04 PM
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I expect most of the Republicans with major disagreements with the current direction of the party simply become independents.
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:08 PM
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I expect most of the Republicans with major disagreements with the current direction of the party simply become independents.
Independents who still vote republican.
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Old 12-15-2018, 03:49 PM
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The republicans got 50 million votes for the house in the 2018 midterm. The republicans have done nothing but tried to cover up Trump's crimes.

The vast, vast majority of republican voters are fine with this behavior.
I phrased the OP title poorly. It's the intellectual framework of the GOP that is dissolving; the leaders and philosophers are deserting. Both then-living GOP Presidents — Bush and Bush — opposed Trump. The intelligent pro-America opinion-makers (Will and Boot, but of course not jackals like Hannity and Limbaugh) are fleeing the sinking ship.

What's left is flocks of voters trying to hold on to a crumbling core, hallucinating that the abyss engulfing them is a magic highway to Make America Great Again. Without leaders that want to serve America, these voters are at the mercy of grifters and flim-flam artists. Sad.
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Old 12-15-2018, 06:18 PM
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Independents who still vote republican.
Not necessarily. Remember, the OP is about a California Republican. Those in California who turn independent are clearly not still voting Republican, as this election showed.
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Old 12-15-2018, 06:47 PM
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Doesn't happen in Canada.
(cheap joke about the paucity of what does happen in Canada elided)

Chief Justice Cantil-Sakauye was appointed by Ahnuld and is subject to regular retention elections. Having a party behind her, and toeing its line is important.
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Old 12-15-2018, 06:55 PM
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(cheap joke about the paucity of what does happen in Canada elided)

Chief Justice Cantil-Sakauye was appointed by Ahnuld and is subject to regular retention elections. Having a party behind her, and toeing its line is important.
Not really. With the exception of occasional weird situations, like the Rose Bird court, "re-election" is par for the course. Indeed, the California Supreme Court bench is one of the few "statewide" offices that tends to have a decent chance of supporting a Republican, even when the rest of the state is going full Democrat.
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:16 PM
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Even Bill Buckley once famously remarked that "our side has more kooks than theirs does". Maybe it just seemed to you that there were more crazies on the left because they were more vocal, and doing bombings and stuff.

It is worth noting that there does not seem to be enough non-trump conservatives to sustain the Weekly Standard, which has folded.
The one group of conservatives that by and large seems to be sticking with their never-Trumpism are the neocons. They seem to have more principles than some of the other groups on the right.

Also, George Will is notable. It's taken enormous guts for him to stick to his guns.
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:11 PM
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Even Bill Buckley once famously remarked that "our side has more kooks than theirs does". Maybe it just seemed to you that there were more crazies on the left because they were more vocal, and doing bombings and stuff.

It is worth noting that there does not seem to be enough non-trump conservatives to sustain the Weekly Standard, which has folded.
The only ones who "did bombings", as you said, were the right-wing nutballs, like McVeigh and all of the abortion clinic bombers.
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Old 12-15-2018, 11:05 PM
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I phrased the OP title poorly. It's the intellectual framework of the GOP that is dissolving; the leaders and philosophers are deserting. Both then-living GOP Presidents — Bush and Bush — opposed Trump. The intelligent pro-America opinion-makers (Will and Boot, but of course not jackals like Hannity and Limbaugh) are fleeing the sinking ship.

What's left is flocks of voters trying to hold on to a crumbling core, hallucinating that the abyss engulfing them is a magic highway to Make America Great Again. Without leaders that want to serve America, these voters are at the mercy of grifters and flim-flam artists. Sad.
I disagree, the republican party is becoming more and more true to their roots and their voters.

For the last few decades, the rich and powerful have played on the tribalistic agenda of the GOP base to get elected, and once elected they push for plutocratic economic agendas (privatize SS & medicare, abolish ACA, cut taxes on the rich, cut regulations, abolish unions, etc).

Only now the GOP is becoming more and more honest about the true agenda of their voters. The base of the GOP is patriarchal christian white nationalists who don't respect liberal democracy. The GOP pretended to care about states rights, competence, etc. but the GOP for the last 50 years has been white nationalists who don't respect democracy being led by plutocrats.

I feel like the George Wills, David Frums, etc. are only leaving the party because now they can't manipulate the GOP base into voting for plutocratic agendas as easily.

Fifty years of the southern strategy and people who score high in authoritarianism joining the GOP is going to have consequences. Throw in a propaganda network and we are where we are.

The only thing happening is the illusion is breaking down. People see the conservative movement for what they are and always have been (the same as they were in the Jim Crow south. Resentful white nationalists who hate democracy). However Trump still serves the plutocrat agenda. He cut trillions in taxes for the rich, put a bunch of pro corporate judges on the bench, ended a lot of regulations, etc.
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Old 12-16-2018, 09:07 AM
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George Will is notable. It's taken enormous guts for him to stick to his guns.
How so?
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Old 12-16-2018, 10:21 AM
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I left at some point during GWB's second term because I saw this was the direction that they were headed, though I won't claim that I appreciated how far down they would fall.

I guess the biggest thing to me is how a person who became a Republican before, say, 2005 could possibly still be affiliated with a party that has taken such a dramatic turn away from the conservativism that supposedly attracted them to the party. It's like being a member of PETA and then sticking with them when they decide that their mission is to punch as many animals in the face as possible.
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Old 12-16-2018, 10:33 AM
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It's not that I like the Dems. But the Pubs are no longer a normal political party. It's been taken over by grifters, kooks, criminals, racists, hucksters, con-men....you name it, they have it.
Well, it's a big tent.
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Old 12-16-2018, 11:59 AM
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The one group of conservatives that by and large seems to be sticking with their never-Trumpism are the neocons. They seem to have more principles than some of the other groups on the right.
That may be because they at least have an actual ideological ethos (pace, Walter Sobchak), as opposed to just a visceral reactive impulse to the changes in society and a craving for power for the sake of "punishing" those who were party to that change.




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The base of the GOP is patriarchal christian white nationalists who don't respect liberal democracy. The GOP pretended to care about states rights, competence, etc. but the GOP for the last 50 years has been white nationalists who don't respect democracy being led by plutocrats.

I feel like the George Wills, David Frums, etc. are only leaving the party because now they can't manipulate the GOP base into voting for plutocratic agendas as easily.

Fifty years of the southern strategy and people who score high in authoritarianism joining the GOP is going to have consequences. Throw in a propaganda network and we are where we are.

The only thing happening is the illusion is breaking down. People see the conservative movement for what they are and always have been (the same as they were in the Jim Crow south. Resentful white nationalists who hate democracy). However Trump still serves the plutocrat agenda. He cut trillions in taxes for the rich, put a bunch of pro corporate judges on the bench, ended a lot of regulations, etc.
But, he is telling that illiberal base that those measures ARE "populist", and they are buying it... because to them, anything that sounds like you will "be tough" and "not care what they say" and "pwn the Libtards" means you are standing up for them. The Illiberal White Nationalists have come to accept that no matter who's in charge they're getting screwed, but they might as well stand tough and whenever possible "punish" the other side.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 12-16-2018 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 12-16-2018, 12:07 PM
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The only ones who "did bombings", as you said, were the right-wing nutballs, like McVeigh and all of the abortion clinic bombers.
I wouldn’t call the Boston Marathon bombers right wingers.
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Old 12-16-2018, 01:08 PM
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I wouldn’t call the Boston Marathon bombers right wingers.

I would.

Does right-wing = conservative? Because I really don’t think you can classify these hardcore religious nuts as progressives/left-wing. They may not be right-wing by Republican standards, but they are conservative.
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Old 12-16-2018, 01:24 PM
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That is true, but I'm not convinced the majority of the people who currently identify as Republicans are the type of people who are influenced by, say, George Will in the first place. Mostly, the people who were the kind of Republicans who read George Will have already stopped identifying as Republicans -- not so much because of George Will but because they and George Will were both caught up in this bigger trend, if that makes sense. The current group of Republicans has a different set of opinion leaders and influencers, and I see no reason to think this group isn't still going strong.
Exactly. Do most of the Republican rank-and-file these days really give a shit about anything George Will has to say? Would most of them even be able to pick the guy out of a line-up?

George Will is the sort of old school commentator who might still have a bit of sway among a small subset of country club and chamber of commerce conservatives. But the hurr-durr faction of the Republican Party is firmly in charge these days, and their intellectual leaders are the Limbaughs, Hannitys, Coulters and, of course, Trumps of the world. So unfortunately I can't see how a few establishment types like George Will and David Frum breaking ranks is going to get many GOP voters to defect.

Last edited by joebuck20; 12-16-2018 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 12-16-2018, 02:35 PM
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I would.

Does right-wing = conservative? Because I really don’t think you can classify these hardcore religious nuts as progressives/left-wing. They may not be right-wing by Republican standards, but they are conservative.
I agree; however, they certainly would not have felt sympathies with either side of the American political spectrum. I think that, for purposes of this discussion, bombings by Islamic extremists aren't really on the spectrum.

I don't think we've seen many bombings in the U.S. by liberal extremists in recent years, though it certainly happened in the past (for example, the Sterling Hall bombing at the University of Wisconsin in 1970, by anti-war protestors). Eco-terrorists are maybe the most noteworthy liberal terrorists in the US over the past few decades, and outside of Ted Kaczynski, bombings don't seem to be their method.
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Old 12-16-2018, 02:59 PM
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Exactly. Do most of the Republican rank-and-file these days really give a shit about anything George Will has to say? Would most of them even be able to pick the guy out of a line-up?

George Will is the sort of old school commentator who might still have a bit of sway among a small subset of country club and chamber of commerce conservatives. But the hurr-durr faction of the Republican Party is firmly in charge these days, and their intellectual leaders are the Limbaughs, Hannitys, Coulters and, of course, Trumps of the world. So unfortunately I can't see how a few establishment types like George Will and David Frum breaking ranks is going to get many GOP voters to defect.
Yeah, Frum & Will have no influence at all on the Right currently. They're completely out of step with the craziness that holds sway.
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Old 12-16-2018, 03:21 PM
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I disagree, the republican party is becoming more and more true to their roots and their voters.

For the last few decades, the rich and powerful have played on the tribalistic agenda of the GOP base to get elected, and once elected they push for plutocratic economic agendas (privatize SS & medicare, abolish ACA, cut taxes on the rich, cut regulations, abolish unions, etc).
[snip]

But the plutocratic agenda is still what the GOP does. I don't have any survey data, so maybe I am wrong, but this is what it looks like to me: The operating core of the GOP isn't the white nationalists. The party is largely made up of businessmen who want to think they're overtaxed and over-regulated, and it's been that way for generations. They may be commonly racist because they live in a racist society, but they're motivated by the dream of living without "government on their backs."

They can attach themselves to the military-industrial complex, they can attach themselves to the "religious right," they can attach themselves to loudmouth self-described patriots, and now they attach themselves to explicit white nationalists; all of these are groups that some part of the anti-tax businessman voter can sympathize with, but they are incorporated to win votes. The neo-nazis are gearing up to serve the same function as the pro-lifers did twenty years ago. But the party exists, at core, to break the hold of taxes and regulations, as they keep insisting. And if they hate democracy, well, yeah, they hate democracy when it raises their taxes, and they love it when they can manipulate it to lower them.

This is what Steve Bannon seemed not to understand. There is no patriotic, nationalistic, nor pro-white core to the faction in control of the party; and they are still in control of the party. They're not going to raise the wages of their "white brothers" nor their "fellow Americans." It is the party of the selfish and kind of anti-social. The nationalists, racists, and xenophobes are largely just useful idiots for the coalition like the pro-lifers and and anti-gay voters. Economic policy is still set by the anti-tax crowd. It's the same old song. What's new & dangerous about it is that neo-nazis will kill for their masters more than Jesus people will.

That's what I think. But if you have data proving me wrong, OK.
  #37  
Old 12-16-2018, 03:27 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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Not a "neoconservative," but I also hear that whatever ideology Ammon Bundy has, he has come out against Homeland Security's treatment of immigrants. Persons who believe in principles will come into conflict with the party when the party abandons those positions, and those persons be disgusted at how many of their co-partisans just didn't care about what was important to them. I went through a form of this myself when Dubya was kidnapping foreign nationals and throwing them in secret installations. That's not who I thought we were.
  #38  
Old 12-16-2018, 03:39 PM
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(cheap joke about the paucity of what does happen in Canada elided)

Chief Justice Cantil-Sakauye was appointed by Ahnuld and is subject to regular retention elections. Having a party behind her, and toeing its line is important.
Actually, I think what there's a "paucity" of in the US is news about other countries, not a paucity of actual events. While you weren't looking, Canada enacted universal single-payer health care, abolished all abortion laws, recognized gay rights and legalized same-sex marriage long before Obergefell, and just legalized cannabis nationwide at the federal level. You guys could use a "paucity" of events like that.

It's true, however, that certain things are indeed very boring in Canada. Among those is the almost universally non-controversial appointment of Supreme Court justices, and the operation of the justice system in general. Politics in general tends to be boring because it tends to lack outrageous lunatics. These are examples of boring = good. Some things should be boring -- evidence-based instead of political, predictable and balanced instead of surprising and outrageous. I believe that's really the point here.
  #39  
Old 12-16-2018, 04:09 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
But, he is telling that illiberal base that those measures ARE "populist", and they are buying it... because to them, anything that sounds like you will "be tough" and "not care what they say" and "pwn the Libtards" means you are standing up for them. The Illiberal White Nationalists have come to accept that no matter who's in charge they're getting screwed, but they might as well stand tough and whenever possible "punish" the other side.
I'm not a conservative, but my impression is when Trump claims to be a populist, he basically means he will make America a white, christian patriarchy again and put all the non-whites, foreigners, feminists, secularists, muslims, liberals, etc in their place.

Trump also runs on being anti-establishment, which has appeal on both sides (Bernie ran on being anti-establishment too. Arguably so did Obama).

But sadly right wing populism is growing all over the world for various reasons. Its something we really need to take serious. I read a really interesting article about George Soros, and how he fears liberal democracy is under threat. He (I believe) donated the rest of his fortune to liberal democratic causes since his is in his 80s now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/17/m...n-society.html

I used to think Fukuyama was right and liberal democracy was the end road of social development, but I don't know anymore. Maybe this is just a phase, maybe globalization and immigration is leading to a temporary resurgence in right wing authoritarianism that'll pass in a decade or two. Who knows. Soros feels the US has a very strong civic institution that'll withstand Trump. But keep in mind the entire south had to be forced to act civilized at gunpoint at multiple times in US history, and the culture there hasn't changed.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 12-16-2018 at 04:14 PM.
  #40  
Old 12-16-2018, 04:24 PM
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Not a "neoconservative," but I also hear that whatever ideology Ammon Bundy has, he has come out against Homeland Security's treatment of immigrants.
I see that as fairly standard garden variety Libertarian anti-federal-government-with-guns stuff. A lot of Libertarians I know also don't have a problem with open border immigration. They say they want people who are willing to travel thousands of miles and risk their lives to get here - they are the strong ones!
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  #41  
Old 12-16-2018, 04:35 PM
MortSahlFan MortSahlFan is online now
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Both parties are right-winged to me.. Never fight fascism with fascist-lite...
  #42  
Old 12-16-2018, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by foolsguinea View Post
[snip]

But the plutocratic agenda is still what the GOP does. I don't have any survey data, so maybe I am wrong, but this is what it looks like to me: The operating core of the GOP isn't the white nationalists. The party is largely made up of businessmen who want to think they're overtaxed and over-regulated, and it's been that way for generations. They may be commonly racist because they live in a racist society, but they're motivated by the dream of living without "government on their backs."

They can attach themselves to the military-industrial complex, they can attach themselves to the "religious right," they can attach themselves to loudmouth self-described patriots, and now they attach themselves to explicit white nationalists; all of these are groups that some part of the anti-tax businessman voter can sympathize with, but they are incorporated to win votes. The neo-nazis are gearing up to serve the same function as the pro-lifers did twenty years ago. But the party exists, at core, to break the hold of taxes and regulations, as they keep insisting. And if they hate democracy, well, yeah, they hate democracy when it raises their taxes, and they love it when they can manipulate it to lower them.

This is what Steve Bannon seemed not to understand. There is no patriotic, nationalistic, nor pro-white core to the faction in control of the party; and they are still in control of the party. They're not going to raise the wages of their "white brothers" nor their "fellow Americans." It is the party of the selfish and kind of anti-social. The nationalists, racists, and xenophobes are largely just useful idiots for the coalition like the pro-lifers and and anti-gay voters. Economic policy is still set by the anti-tax crowd. It's the same old song. What's new & dangerous about it is that neo-nazis will kill for their masters more than Jesus people will.

That's what I think. But if you have data proving me wrong, OK.
What you wrote is not wrong; it's pretty much spot on IMO.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 12-16-2018 at 04:55 PM.
  #43  
Old 12-16-2018, 05:20 PM
FlikTheBlue FlikTheBlue is offline
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That may be because they at least have an actual ideological ethos (pace, Walter Sobchak), as opposed to just a visceral reactive impulse to the changes in society and a craving for power for the sake of "punishing" those who were party to that change.




But, he is telling that illiberal base that those measures ARE "populist", and they are buying it... because to them, anything that sounds like you will "be tough" and "not care what they say" and "pwn the Libtards" means you are standing up for them. The Illiberal White Nationalists have come to accept that no matter who's in charge they're getting screwed, but they might as well stand tough and whenever possible "punish" the other side.
What’s ironic is that they are flat out wrong if they think they would be getting screwed no matter who’s in charge. Things like an increase in the minimum wage, improved access to good health care, affordable higher education, etc. would all benefit them. Yet they continue to oppose those policies because they don’t want to share the benefits of those policies with anyone not in their group.

Last edited by FlikTheBlue; 12-16-2018 at 05:20 PM.
  #44  
Old 12-16-2018, 05:30 PM
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I disagree, the republican party is becoming more and more true to their roots and their voters.

For the last few decades, the rich and powerful have played on the tribalistic agenda of the GOP base to get elected, and once elected they push for plutocratic economic agendas (privatize SS & medicare, abolish ACA, cut taxes on the rich, cut regulations, abolish unions, etc).

Only now the GOP is becoming more and more honest about the true agenda of their voters. The base of the GOP is patriarchal christian white nationalists who don't respect liberal democracy.
Yes. Check out this graph: https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/statu...55694686158852

Evangelical Christians are the base, not SWMs without a college education. True, nonevangelical white males without a college education preferred the GOP to the Democrats during the 2018 midterms by a 53 to 44% margin. But among white male evangelicals, GOP vote share was 78% whatever your level of education. Among white female evangelicals it was 71-73%.

That's the base. Not white male. Not whites without a college education. Evangelicals.
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I phrased the OP title poorly. It's the intellectual framework of the GOP that is dissolving; the leaders and philosophers are deserting. Both then-living GOP Presidents — Bush and Bush — opposed Trump. The intelligent pro-America opinion-makers (Will and Boot, but of course not jackals like Hannity and Limbaugh) are fleeing the sinking ship.

What's left is flocks of voters trying to hold on to a crumbling core, hallucinating that the abyss engulfing them is a magic highway to Make America Great Again. Without leaders that want to serve America, these voters are at the mercy of grifters and flim-flam artists. Sad.
To quote the internet, "Classic trilemma: You cannot be honest, intelligent and Republican/modern conservative at the same time; chose two of these." For a pre-Trump view on modern conservative grifting see Perlstein (2012) in the Baffler: The Long Con.
  #45  
Old 12-16-2018, 10:00 PM
survinga survinga is offline
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But keep in mind the entire south had to be forced to act civilized at gunpoint at multiple times in US history, and the culture there hasn't changed.
The culture in the South has changed alot. I grew up here, and have lived here my entire life. It's very different than when I was growing up.

People don't believe it. But the races here actually get along much better than in the past. You can go anywhere in the south (almost any town, large or small) and you will see inter-racial couples. It's not dominant, but you see them, and they are rarely harassed (I haven't seen harassment in decades). You are likely to see neighborhoods and churches and schools that are integrated. Things are not like what you see in movies about the jim crow days.

Also, many areas of the south have been settled by people from the Northeast and Midwest. So, it's not a uniform culture by any means. You still can eat southern food, and people still hunt & fish and go to church. But there are other outlets, too, in the larger towns.
  #46  
Old 12-16-2018, 10:25 PM
penultima thule penultima thule is offline
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The one group of conservatives that by and large seems to be sticking with their never-Trumpism are the neocons.
So the neocons are now the last standing of sensible right?
I must have missed the memo ... when did they join?

Last edited by penultima thule; 12-16-2018 at 10:26 PM.
  #47  
Old 12-16-2018, 10:43 PM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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Does this mean that John "Shit for Brains" Bolton won't stumble us into a war with Iran, Belgium, or Upper Volta? Gumdrops!
  #48  
Old 12-17-2018, 12:34 AM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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I seem to recall reading an article from a conservative commentator who was shocked, shocked, to discover that all oh is traditional ideological views (tax cuts, support for the military, anti-abortionist) were actually just cover for the general strategy of keeping whites on top.

Can't think of the name.
  #49  
Old 12-17-2018, 07:21 AM
survinga survinga is offline
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So the neocons are now the last standing of sensible right?
I must have missed the memo ... when did they join?
All I was saying was that more of them (as a %) have remained in the Never-Trump camp. I'm thinking of guys like Max Boot, John Podhoretz, Bill Kristol, David Frum, and a few others. There also seems to have been more introspection on their part. I'm not absolving the neocons of their sins. But compared to other conservative groups, the neocons seem to have actual principles and willingness to stand against the Trump Mob.

And that's what the pro-Trump world is now. It's just a mob, and all the negatives that entails.
  #50  
Old 12-17-2018, 07:22 AM
survinga survinga is offline
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I seem to recall reading an article from a conservative commentator who was shocked, shocked, to discover that all oh is traditional ideological views (tax cuts, support for the military, anti-abortionist) were actually just cover for the general strategy of keeping whites on top.

Can't think of the name.
That might have been Max Boot. I think he wrote something like that.
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