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Old 01-06-2019, 11:21 PM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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If Democrats decide to stop being "the adult in the room"

For a decade or so/more, Democrats (at least, elected Democrats) played the role of "the adult in the room" - a generation/cohort of Pelosis, Schumers, Obamas, Kennedys, Clintons, Reids, Warrens, Bidens, Reids, etc.

But now, with the intensifying opposition to Trump, the deep polarization of the Trump era, the older Democrats all reaching retirement age, the way that new and young Democrats differ from their elders....etc........................ I am concerned that we are going to see a whole lot more Ocasio-Cortezes, Tlaibs, Antifa-type folks, etc. - new Democrats who have no interest in being "the adult in the room" anymore than Trumpers or Republicans. We'll have two major parties, both of who want to be tantrum-throwing toddler, and neither of which wants to be the grown-up. Democratic politicians who will fully reject Michelle Obama's "When they go low, we go high" approach.

When Tlaib, the newly elected Congresswoman, crowed, "We're going to impeach the motherfucker! (Trump,)" she was condemned by most of her Democratic peers in Congress. But I have a feeling that we're eventually going to get to a point where the majority of Democrats won't consider Tlaib's behavior something to be condemned, but rather, something praiseworthy. A "When they go low, we go equally low or even lower!" approach. When Republicans go dirty, Democrats are then going to try to gleefully play just as dirty or even dirtier. Where a majority of Democrats in Congress will echo and promote sentiments and statements along the lines of "we're going to impeach the motherfucker!"


If neither side wants to be the adult in the room, then the nation can only be headed down a reaaally dark place. The only viable alternative would then be a major 3rd party (the Sanity Party) that would try to win on the basis of appeal to "respectability the way things used to be, when parties played by the rules of civility" but it's mighty hard for a 3rd party to rise up in the two-party system.

Last edited by Velocity; 01-06-2019 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 01-06-2019, 11:28 PM
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Here's my bottom line: when Democrats take over the presidency, I want them to prosecute the opposition. For the longest time, I thought that was a line that shouldn't be crossed. Even if you thought your predecessors were corrupt, Gerry Ford set the example.

No more. I want as many Republicans involved in this administration prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law...assuming the law returns.
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Old 01-06-2019, 11:36 PM
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You know, speaking truth through the right-wing lies isn't immature, or juvenile. It's about time, is what it is. Democrats have spent way too long indulging the GOP's decades-long temper tantrum. I find it immensely refreshing to see some of our Congressional delegation telling you people about yourselves for once.
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:55 AM
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For a bunch of people who claim to be such Bible-Lovin' Christians, it's odd that they don't seem to get this....

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/as_yo...shall_you_reap
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:04 AM
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Pelosi and Schumer are the "adults in the room"??? Hahahahahaha!! Good one!!!
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
For a decade or so/more, Democrats (at least, elected Democrats) played the role of "the adult in the room" - a generation/cohort of Pelosis, Schumers, Obamas, Kennedys, Clintons, Reids, Warrens, Bidens, Reids, etc.

But now, with the intensifying opposition to Trump, the deep polarization of the Trump era, the older Democrats all reaching retirement age, the way that new and young Democrats differ from their elders....etc........................ I am concerned that we are going to see a whole lot more Ocasio-Cortezes, Tlaibs, Antifa-type folks, etc. - new Democrats who have no interest in being "the adult in the room" anymore than Trumpers or Republicans. We'll have two major parties, both of who want to be tantrum-throwing toddler, and neither of which wants to be the grown-up. Democratic politicians who will fully reject Michelle Obama's "When they go low, we go high" approach.

When Tlaib, the newly elected Congresswoman, crowed, "We're going to impeach the motherfucker! (Trump,)" she was condemned by most of her Democratic peers in Congress. But I have a feeling that we're eventually going to get to a point where the majority of Democrats won't consider Tlaib's behavior something to be condemned, but rather, something praiseworthy. A "When they go low, we go equally low or even lower!" approach. When Republicans go dirty, Democrats are then going to try to gleefully play just as dirty or even dirtier. Where a majority of Democrats in Congress will echo and promote sentiments and statements along the lines of "we're going to impeach the motherfucker!"


If neither side wants to be the adult in the room, then the nation can only be headed down a reaaally dark place. The only viable alternative would then be a major 3rd party (the Sanity Party) that would try to win on the basis of appeal to "respectability the way things used to be, when parties played by the rules of civility" but it's mighty hard for a 3rd party to rise up in the two-party system.
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:25 AM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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For a decade or so/more, Democrats (at least, elected Democrats) played the role of "the adult in the room" - a generation/cohort of Pelosis, Schumers, Obamas, Kennedys, Clintons, Reids, Warrens, Bidens, Reids, etc.

But now, with the intensifying opposition to Trump, the deep polarization of the Trump era, the older Democrats all reaching retirement age, the way that new and young Democrats differ from their elders....etc........................ I am concerned that we are going to see a whole lot more Ocasio-Cortezes, Tlaibs, Antifa-type folks, etc. - new Democrats who have no interest in being "the adult in the room" anymore than Trumpers or Republicans. We'll have two major parties, both of who want to be tantrum-throwing toddler, and neither of which wants to be the grown-up. Democratic politicians who will fully reject Michelle Obama's "When they go low, we go high" approach.

When Tlaib, the newly elected Congresswoman, crowed, "We're going to impeach the motherfucker! (Trump,)" she was condemned by most of her Democratic peers in Congress. But I have a feeling that we're eventually going to get to a point where the majority of Democrats won't consider Tlaib's behavior something to be condemned, but rather, something praiseworthy. A "When they go low, we go equally low or even lower!" approach. When Republicans go dirty, Democrats are then going to try to gleefully play just as dirty or even dirtier. Where a majority of Democrats in Congress will echo and promote sentiments and statements along the lines of "we're going to impeach the motherfucker!"


If neither side wants to be the adult in the room, then the nation can only be headed down a reaaally dark place. The only viable alternative would then be a major 3rd party (the Sanity Party) that would try to win on the basis of appeal to "respectability the way things used to be, when parties played by the rules of civility" but it's mighty hard for a 3rd party to rise up in the two-party system.
Sure, because I can TOTALLY see AOC saying, "I don't care if soldiers are working without pay, they vote Republican."

There's not an eyeroll large enough. Glad to see you've ceded the moral and intellectual high ground to liberals, though.
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:18 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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For a decade or so/more, Democrats (at least, elected Democrats) played the role of "the adult in the room" ...
We'll, for decades they've been telling themselves that's what they've been doing.
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:36 AM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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I feel like my post is misunderstood or poorly written. I'm not asking whether Republicans "deserve it" or not - that's a separate, different issue. I'm asking, if Democrats decide "F*** the high road, let's go super low and tantrum-ish," and both parties behave that way, then where does that put America? As far as I can see, only down a really ugly path.
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:49 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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"if" is not the right word there, but to your broader point, our politics have been in an ugly downward spiral for many years now.
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:19 AM
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Pelosi and Schumer are the "adults in the room"??? Hahahahahaha!! Good one!!!
It would be funny except that it's the truth. Republicans have demonstrated they are completely morally bankrupt. If I believed in Hell I'd say "May God have mercy on their souls". Since there is no divine retribution the only moral thing to do is to thwart them at every turn.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Old 01-07-2019, 05:31 AM
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No more. I want as many Republicans involved in this administration prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law...
First you have to demonstrate that they've broken laws.
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Old 01-07-2019, 06:05 AM
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I am concerned that we are going to see a whole lot more Ocasio-Cortezes, Tlaibs, Antifa-type folks, etc. - new Democrats who have no interest in being "the adult in the room"
Nah -- I think concern about a space alien invasion or a zombie apocalypse would be a less fantastical, and more fun, phantom menace to speculate about.
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Old 01-07-2019, 06:07 AM
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No more. I want as many Republicans involved in this administration prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
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First you have to demonstrate that they've broken laws.
"You have to prove someone is guilty before you can prosecute them" is as concise an encapsulation of Trumpitude as I've seen lately.
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Old 01-07-2019, 07:50 AM
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... I am concerned that we are going to see a whole lot more Ocasio-Cortezes, Tlaibs, Antifa-type folks, etc. ...
You felt a need to lump AOC with the slightly violent Antifa? What gives? Is dancing considered a form of terrorism now??

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Old 01-07-2019, 07:54 AM
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I was thinking about posting this as a separate thread, but wonder if it suits this one. Will the new far left become the Dems' tea party?

The Dems have been moving centerward since - at least - Bill Clinton. I don't consider myself radical, but on many issues, Obama was ore conservative than I would prefer. But I also have faith in governance from the middle - with rational persons on both sides of the aisle compromising for the best of the country.

I felt more radical following McConnell's "oppose EVERYTHING Obama" stance. But I'm not sure that is the best longterm approach either for liberal causes or for the country as a whole.

These days, you have more centrist Rs refusing to compromise for fear of being primaried by some far right teapartier. I'm wondering if a similar effect will occur on the left?
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Old 01-07-2019, 08:41 AM
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Look at the right wing response in this thread: obsession with AOC, a junior representative from Queens, NY, knee jerk dismissiveness of other people's points without offering counterpoints and immediate parroting of GOP talking points. Use of the term adults in the room is apt, Red Sate America is acting like children. They want a wall, although it is bad public policy, and they want the American taxpayers to pay for it, even though their president said Mexico was going to pay for it. They have the attention spans of children and they choose to forget inconvenient facts. Every election cycle, some billionaire shows up to promise them coal jobs and gets them fired up about some form of bigotry or other: gay people getting married; black people kneeling; or people not using the bathroom assigned to them by the invisible man in the sky.

The problem isn't that the Democrats will stop being the adults in the room, the problem is that there aren't enough adults. Because of red staters' hostility to birth control, abortion, and sex education, their ignorance is only exceeded by their bug-like rate of procreation. It's not enough that they want jobs digging coal out of the ground with no government oversight, they want their children to carry on this proud tradition and their hostility to education and science means that this is all their children will be prepared to do with their lives.

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Old 01-07-2019, 09:28 AM
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Aw, but if you read it with sweaty fingers you see the most amazing things!
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:39 AM
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You felt a need to lump AOC with the slightly violent Antifa? What gives? Is dancing considered a form of terrorism now??
The o.p. has appeared to model his beliefs after the John Litghow character in Footloose and is just trying to save us all from a collective car wreck, while meanwhile cheering on the two parties in their glacially slow game of ‘Tractor Chicken’ in which the Democrats find their shoelace entagled in the footbrake and thus unable to leap to success. So, yes, Ocasio-Cortez, a junior Representitive representing the East Bronx and Queens (e.g. the least influential district in NYC save for Staten Island) of whom even the Democratic leadership is largely dismissive is an insidious threat, what with her dancing and enthusiasm and her fiscally unworkable social policies that approximately 0.0% of a chance of ever seeing the House floor for a vote. She could upset everything, so of course, let’s start an entirely new political party of radical centrists who profess the utmost love of country and national pride because when has that ever gone wrong?

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Don’t you want to hear more about this ‘Sanity Party’, which will doubtless be the Chinese way of using the United States in a proxy propaganda war against Russia as vengence for long-standing resentment for its part in crushing the Boxer Rebellion? His newsletter is probably the most entertaining thing since InfoWars, especially if he can do a vblog for it that is just forty-odd minutes of alternating screaming rants and pitches for comically unworkable patent medical supplements made from weasel excrement.

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Old 01-07-2019, 09:44 AM
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"You have to prove someone is guilty before you can prosecute them" is as concise an encapsulation of Trumpitude as I've seen lately.
You're right; my choice of words was wrong. Let me rephrase that: you need to have a case that they have broken laws.
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:11 AM
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Yes, it would be more polite and seemly if they had screwed America into the ground by strictly legal means. But then we would have threads clutching pearls about the delicate and cowardly Dems failing their duty, and the concern thereby provoked.
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:14 AM
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You're right; my choice of words was wrong. Let me rephrase that: you need to have a case that they have broken laws.
OK, check. What's the next step?
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:37 AM
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For a decade or so/more, Democrats (at least, elected Democrats) played the role of "the adult in the room" - a generation/cohort of Pelosis, Schumers, Obamas, Kennedys, Clintons, Reids, Warrens, Bidens, Reids, etc.
Hahahaha. "The adult in the room"? According to whom? Other Democrats? Elected Democrats have been half of the problem in Washington, DC, and state capitals. Currently, it's the elected Democrats who have been *resisting* government legislation for the last two years. No compromise. Do it our way, or no way. Now Democrat voters are electing a new generation of haters who have no intention of following the old fashion, business-as-usual, vote-in-lock-step Democrat Party regulars, or their financial backers. The next two years of legislation will be filled with impeachment claims, firearm bans, promises of more free stuff paid for by the taxpayers, and in-fighting between the old and young Democrats in the House. May we live in interesting times.
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:56 AM
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I think it would be a bad plan for the Democrats. Not just from a moral standpoint but also for political reasons.

The Democrats currently go high while the Republicans go low. As a result, the Democrats pick up one group of voters while the Republicans pick up another.

If the Democrats tried to also go low, they would lose their current supporters. And they would be competing with the Republicans for the other group. And the Republicans are much more experienced at going low than the Democrats would be.

The Democrats shouldn't try to go low. Instead, they should stick with going high while educating voters on why going high is a better way.
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:57 AM
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Hahahaha. "The adult in the room"? According to whom?
Reality. However much you refuse to acknowledge it.
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:01 PM
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I will simply dismiss as not grounded in reality any thread that starts with the assertion that Harry Reid, D-NV was acting as the "adult in the room". Harry Reid was many things, but the level-headed type who won't stoop to partisan shenanigans as needed to advance an agenda was not one of them. Or has the OP forgotten who started the war on the filibuster (among other things)?

I will also simply dismiss as not grounded in reality the attempt by the OP to cast the Republican Party as a whole as a teeming mass of temper-tantrum-throwing assholes who refuse to be "adult" in their approach to politics. That sort of dismissive "we're better than you" attitude by "liberals" is a prime example of what is causing the problem in the first place. SOME Republicans are acting that way, but so are SOME Democrats, and that's always been true.
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:29 PM
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You can dismiss reality all day long, but it remains real, as confirmed by the scientific method, e.g.:
  • Hypothesis: The Republican Party is not a teeming mass of temper-tantrum-throwing assholes who refuse to be "adult" in their approach to politics
  • Prediction: The Republican Party will act quickly and decisively to bring Donald J. Trump to heel and either make him act like a President instead of a village idiot, or else render him irrelevant.
  • Observation: The Prediction is not borne out.
  • Conclusion: The Hypothesis is false.
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:44 PM
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You're right; my choice of words was wrong. Let me rephrase that: you need to have a case that they have broken laws.
AIUI what you need is some proof that one or more laws have been broken, and that the entity (person/persons/organization) in question may have been the one who broke said laws. The case goes to a grand jury that decides whether there's enough evidence to proceed.

Then and only then is the entity prosecuted.
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:50 PM
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It's very interesting, the correlation between the Dopers arguing against Democrats having BEEN the adults in the room for the last decade, at least, and the people voting "yes" to the "Hillary should run again" poll in the other thread...apparently, even the "smart" Republicans (i.e., the ones who hang around here) are completely divorced from reality.
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:12 PM
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I can't speak to Rashida Tlaib, with whom I am not familiar.

But I think what we're seeing with AOC is not a "tantrum-throwing toddler" but a serious progressive who exploits social media well. She's not quite the FDR of our age, but she is someone with very populist politics and a very strong sense of how to use the media. (No tantrums yet!) That's a good thing.
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:25 PM
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Steve Bannon, if nothing else an exemplar of trumpist "thinking", said "They (Dems) go for the pillow fight, we go for the head wound. The head wound beats the pillow fight every time."

Dems do need to be able to go "bare knuckles" when the occasion calls for it. (Hell, even brass knuckles.) But should try to do so in a fashion that decries the necessity for doing so and expresses the hope for a return to times when such tactics weren't made necessary.
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:23 PM
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You can dismiss reality all day long, but it remains real, as confirmed by the scientific method, e.g.:
  • Hypothesis: The Republican Party is not a teeming mass of temper-tantrum-throwing assholes who refuse to be "adult" in their approach to politics
  • Prediction: The Republican Party will act quickly and decisively to bring Donald J. Trump to heel and either make him act like a President instead of a village idiot, or else render him irrelevant.
  • Observation: The Prediction is not borne out.
  • Conclusion: The Hypothesis is false.
The assertion that the only possible way for the Republican Party to act if it is not a "teeming mass of tantrum-throwing ..." is to "act quickly and decisively to bring ..." is simply a false dichotomy. You prove nothing with such sophistry.
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:40 PM
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Not much point in being the adult in the room when the kid is psycho and can send you to the cornfield.
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:45 PM
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The assertion that the only possible way for the Republican Party to act if it is not a "teeming mass of tantrum-throwing ..." is to "act quickly and decisively to bring ..." is simply a false dichotomy. You prove nothing with such sophistry.
Yup, that was an incredibly silly argument.
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Old 01-08-2019, 12:30 AM
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The assertion that the only possible way for the Republican Party to act if it is not a "teeming mass of tantrum-throwing ..." is to "act quickly and decisively to bring ..." is simply a false dichotomy. You prove nothing with such sophistry.
Yup, that was an incredibly silly argument.
And yet, they cannot act “quickly or decisively” to end a pointless government shutdown over a point of pique of Trump. So, what is your point, exactly?

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Not much point in being the adult in the room when the kid is psycho and can send you to the cornfield.
In praise of Pip...

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Old 01-08-2019, 02:37 AM
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I will simply dismiss as not grounded in reality any thread that starts with the assertion that Harry Reid, D-NV was acting as the "adult in the room". Harry Reid was many things, but the level-headed type who won't stoop to partisan shenanigans as needed to advance an agenda was not one of them. Or has the OP forgotten who started the war on the filibuster (among other things)?
Do you remember why that was a thing? Just curious.

Quote:
I will also simply dismiss as not grounded in reality the attempt by the OP to cast the Republican Party as a whole as a teeming mass of temper-tantrum-throwing assholes who refuse to be "adult" in their approach to politics. That sort of dismissive "we're better than you" attitude by "liberals" is a prime example of what is causing the problem in the first place. SOME Republicans are acting that way, but so are SOME Democrats, and that's always been true.
The entire republican party is currently enabling Donald Trump. We're currently in the midst of a government shutdown that he promises could go on "months or years" if we do not give him the incredibly stupid wall he wants (which he promised mexico would pay for). This is entirely on Trump and McConnell. Which republicans have stood up and said, "this is not okay and needs to stop"? Which republicans have been willing to actually do something about this mess? Oh, fucking nobody? That's kind of telling.

Your house is not in order.

Last I checked, Velocity is not some bleeding-heart liberal; he is or at least was a republican. This is not a democrat painting the democrats as the adults in the room. This is a republican doing that. And I can't blame him; all it takes to come to that conclusion is five seconds looking at the Trump administration.

Maybe the democrats aren't the adults in the room. But since the Trump administration, we're certainly at least the teenaged babysitter dealing with a screaming, ADHD toddler. Your comparison is absurd, honestly. The current republican party is completely dysfunctional from top to bottom. And the worst part is, it's only going to get worse. So far, most republicans in congress are at least old enough to where they remember a time before the right wing media sphere existed. But we're going to be coming up on a generation of republican politicians who have never been outside that bubble. People who aren't the conmen, but rather the marks in the big Fox News scam. And that's terrifying, because if partisanship keeps up the way it is, we're going to end up with a generation of policymakers who don't just have to swear fealty to the portion of the base that's utterly disconnected from reality, but who belong to that portion.
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Old 01-08-2019, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Maybe the democrats aren't the adults in the room. But since the Trump administration, we're certainly at least the teenaged babysitter dealing with a screaming, ADHD toddler. Your comparison is absurd, honestly. The current republican party is completely dysfunctional from top to bottom.
The current Republican party consists almost entirely* of people who try to get the screaming ADHD toddler to be quiet for a moment by giving him toys and candy and ice cream and whatnot -- in other words, people who refuse to be adult in their approach, to borrow a phrase from my spot-on analysis.

*The exceptions are virtually powerless and are in the process of being completely purged, and are thus irrelevant to the question of assessing the party's character.
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  #38  
Old 01-08-2019, 10:01 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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... Last I checked, Velocity is not some bleeding-heart liberal; he is or at least was a republican. This is not a democrat painting the democrats as the adults in the room. This is a republican doing that. ...
If I found some quotes by bleeding-heart liberals saying that the Democrats were behaving badly, would that convince you it is so?
  #39  
Old 01-08-2019, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
If I found some quotes by bleeding-heart liberals saying that the Democrats were behaving badly, would that convince you it is so?
Seeing as you seem to have read my post, would you care to respond to the substance of it? Because if we're just throwing out fallacies, I'm just going to offer the fallacy fallacy and be on my way. Pointing out that Velocity was not a liberal was a response to this:
That sort of dismissive "we're better than you" attitude by "liberals" is a prime example of what is causing the problem in the first place.
In case that wasn't clear in my last post.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 01-08-2019 at 10:04 AM.
  #40  
Old 01-08-2019, 10:57 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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What do you see as the "substance" of your post?
  #41  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:56 AM
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I'd say the key point is this bit:

"The entire republican party is currently enabling Donald Trump. We're currently in the midst of a government shutdown that he promises could go on "months or years" if we do not give him the incredibly stupid wall he wants (which he promised mexico would pay for). This is entirely on Trump and McConnell. Which republicans have stood up and said, "this is not okay and needs to stop"? Which republicans have been willing to actually do something about this mess? Oh, fucking nobody? That's kind of telling.

Your house is not in order."

I don't think it's disputable that the democrats have been acting as the adults in the room. "When they go low, we go high" and whatnot. Meanwhile, the republicans have... not.

There's a clear line that can be drawn from the tea party revolution of 2010 to the current dysfunction. McConnell's tenure as senate majority leader is basically a long list of impressive accomplishments born out of shredding political norms, and once he gained power, he realized how impossible it was to use those principles to actually legislate.

Look at 2016-2018. Republicans controlled all three branches of government, and the only significant legislature they passed was a tax cut that had the dubious distinction of being the most unpopular tax cut ever. They also rammed through a SCOTUS justice who has absolutely no business being on the highest court on a near-perfect party line vote. They failed their signature legislative promise of repealing Obamacare, because they never, ever had a realistic plan to "repeal and replace" - merely a base that was fed insane nonsense and didn't have to consider the upsides of Obamacare until it was almost repealed. Once it became clear what the consequences of "repeal and replace" would be, it quickly became unbelievably unpopular. We have the first ever government shutdown when one party controls all branches of government. Meanwhile, congress has seated a representative who assaulted a reporter and barely avoided seating a goddamn serial child molester.

That's just the last two years. That's just the most high-profile issues, barely scratching the surface of what's going on. That's just congressional republicans. Which is particularly telling, because it ignores the elephant in the room, which is President Donald Trump. The only republicans in congress who are or were willing to stand up to the president did so in token, meaningless ways, voting his way nearly 100% of the time before quietly retiring (or dying) so that a more pro-trump republican could take their place. And do I have to go over how fucked up that is? I really don't want to; if you can't see that the president is a real and present danger by now, then there's nothing I could say to convince you. But as said, we're now in day 13 of the second-longest government shutdown ever, brought on because the President refuses to sign any appropriations bills that don't contain funding for his stupid fucking wall mexico was supposed to pay for, and the senate majority leader refuses to try to override that veto, even though a clean bill is and was available, and passed the senate unanimously. That, and he's leading what can only be described as a disinformation campaign - or he's so completely detached from reality that he has no idea what is and is not true. Either one would be terrifying to anyone who cares about the integrity of the office.

Your house. Is not. In Order.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 01-08-2019 at 12:00 PM.
  #42  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:14 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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... Which republicans have stood up and said, "this is not okay and needs to stop"? Which republicans have been willing to actually do something about this mess? Oh, fucking nobody? ...
First off, you seem to be unaware of some facts here: "Several House Republicans broke with Trump and voted with Democrats to pass 2 bills that would end the government shutdown".

But secondly, why should it surprise you or anyone that most Republicans are willing to engage in a bit of brinkmanship to get their policy goals enacted? The Democrats certainly are. Obama didn't have any issues doing it either.

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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
... I don't think it's disputable that the democrats have been acting as the adults in the room. "When they go low, we go high" and whatnot. ...
That is simply a failure to think. Eric Holder: "When they go low, we kick them."


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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
... There's a clear line that can be drawn from the tea party revolution of 2010 to the current dysfunction. McConnell's tenure as senate majority leader is basically a long list of impressive accomplishments born out of shredding political norms, and once he gained power, he realized how impossible it was to use those principles to actually legislate. ...
You're just ignoring all the pre-2010 dysfunction, and all the shredding of political norms that Harry Reid did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
... Look at 2016-2018. Republicans controlled all three branches of government, and the only significant legislature they passed was a tax cut that had the dubious distinction of being the most unpopular tax cut ever. They also rammed through a SCOTUS justice who has absolutely no business being on the highest court on a near-perfect party line vote. ...
I"m not sure that listing some of their accomplishments is really the best strategy for making your case that they're dysfunctional.


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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
... They failed their signature legislative promise of repealing Obamacare...
Yes, they could have accomplished more. I suspect many Dems feel similar about their time with unified control and the only significant legislative accomplishment being the passage of ObamaCare.


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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
... if you can't see that the president is a real and present danger by now...
I'm guessing you mean this as more of a metaphor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
... But as said, we're now in day 13 of the second-longest government shutdown ever, brought on because the President refuses to sign any appropriations bills that don't contain funding for his stupid fucking wall ...
So what? We've had shutdowns before, and we will again. Both sides engage in brinkmanship. If you think the shutdown is so terrible, then fund the wall and move on. $5B is a pittance in the grand scheme of our current federal budget.
  #43  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:27 PM
Airbeck Airbeck is offline
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You don't give a screaming toddler what they want so they'll shut up and stop crying. That is awful parenting. Giving into Trump's tantrum by giving him a 5 Billion dollar slush fund is awful governance and only guarantees that he'll keep throwing tantrums again and again and again.

The Democrats won and now control the House, Trump needs to learn how to deal with that and stop holding his breath or threatening to take his ball and go home. Its time to for him to grow up. He is not a dictator and he doesn't get what he wants just because he really wants it and he keep screaming about it. People usually learn lesson that by the age of 3 or 4 if they have decent parents.

Would you want your kid behaving this way. If your kid pitched a fit in public and started screaming and wailing because he wants a toy, do you think its a good idea to just give it to him? How do you think that will play the next time he sees a toy he wants?
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  #44  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:45 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
You're just ignoring all the pre-2010 dysfunction, and all the shredding of political norms that Harry Reid did.
As an action, or a reaction?

Quote:
I suspect many Dems feel similar about their time with unified control and the only significant legislative accomplishment being the passage of ObamaCare.
Hey, you now recognize it as an accomplishment! Maybe the rest of your party will follow. Not by admitting they were totally wrong, of course, but by claiming credit for it.

Quote:
If you think the shutdown is so terrible, then fund the wall and move on. $5B is a pittance in the grand scheme of our current federal budget.
It isn't the wall or the money as such that matters, but (A) What that monstrosity means for what's left of our national image, and (B) Showing a toddler that tantrums don't work.
  #45  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:53 PM
Steve MB Steve MB is offline
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
If you think the shutdown is so terrible, then fund the wall and move on.
In a universe that ran according to karma, you would find yourself trapped in a small space with a three-year-old who had been raised according to that logic, with absolutely nothing on hand that could be fashioned into hearing protection if you had Angus MacGyver, Montgomery Scott, and a litter of Motie Watchmakers working on it.
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Last edited by Steve MB; 01-08-2019 at 12:56 PM.
  #46  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:55 PM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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If I may try to steer this thread on a track a bit.......

Again, not a thread debating about who is the adult in the room and who is the toddler. The thread presumes/assumes that Democrats have been adults and Republicans have been toddlers. I was/am asking - what if the day comes when Democrats decide that they no longer want to play the role of the adult and they too want to be a tantrum toddler? Then America will be led by 2 tantrum toddlers.

I can't see that taking the country anywhere except a really ugly direction.
  #47  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:57 PM
steronz steronz is offline
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
But secondly, why should it surprise you or anyone that most Republicans are willing to engage in a bit of brinkmanship to get their policy goals enacted? The Democrats certainly are. Obama didn't have any issues doing it either.
The wall is not a Republican policy goal. It did not exist on any Republican platform until Donald Trump made it a signature campaign promise. Congress failed to agree on funding for a wall while Republicans were in charge. This is what Pelosi meant when she told Trump that "he didn't have the votes." She meant he didn't have the votes of his own frickin' party. And that was after his $25B became $5B. Because, let's be honest, 1/5th of a wall is pretty useless, so even if congress caves to his demands now, there's still going to be more demands later. And $25B is still a made up number because actual estimates are much higher.

That's what's so incredibly stupid about the current behavior of Mitch McConnell and congressional Republicans. They're not supporting their own policy goals, they're supporting Trump's nonsensical and racist campaign promise.
  #48  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:58 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
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Could we just give Trump five billion dollars to go away? It would be a win-win for everyone; we’d be rid of this pustulant stooge and Donald Trump could legitimately claim to be an actual billionaire instead of obscuring the accounting of his supposed wealth. Of course, we’d then have to deal with a President Pence, but at least his agenda is straightforward and we can get on with dealing his apocalyptic dreams without all of this Twitter bullshit about “Wall” and all of the terrorists at the border.

Stranger
  #49  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
If I may try to steer this thread on a track a bit.......

Again, not a thread debating about who is the adult in the room and who is the toddler. The thread presumes/assumes that Democrats have been adults and Republicans have been toddlers. I was/am asking - what if the day comes when Democrats decide that they no longer want to play the role of the adult and they too want to be a tantrum toddler? Then America will be led by 2 tantrum toddlers.

I can't see that taking the country anywhere except a really ugly direction.
Sure. What evidence is there that the democrats are going in that direction? In what universe is Ocasio-Cortez or Tlaib "a tantrum-throwing toddler" in the way that Donald Trump has been re: the wall? Might as well ask "what if the democrats suddenly became nazis", honestly.
  #50  
Old 01-08-2019, 01:04 PM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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Sure. What evidence is there that the democrats are going in that direction? In what universe is Ocasio-Cortez or Tlaib "a tantrum-throwing toddler" in the way that Donald Trump has been re: the wall? Might as well ask "what if the democrats suddenly became nazis", honestly.
The majority of Democrats don't seem headed that way yet, but I've definitely read a lot of opinions to the effect of "When they go high we go low doesn't work, we need to fight dirty."
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