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Old 01-07-2019, 10:37 AM
purplehorseshoe purplehorseshoe is offline
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Proving real ID if accused of fake?

I tried googling but only got sites for spotting fake IDs, how to buy/make fake IDs, penalties for being caught, etc. But I want to know the reverse: what happens if I am accused of a fake ID when all I have is a legit card, and what recourse (if any) exists for me to prove myself?

Let's say I want to buy a pack of Marlboro Menthol Coffin Nails and a jug or box of your finest vintage, and upon demand for ID I present my fully legit state-issued driver's license - and the clerk suspects it's a fake and accuses me of such.

Clearly, the store may refuse to do business with me as is their right, and I will likely leave empty handed. But .. is that it? I get in serious trouble if I'm carrying a fake ID, but is the store immune to getting any trouble for the opposite scenario?
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:28 AM
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It may vary by state, but bartender friends (Pennsylvania) tell me that if they do not feel comfortable serving someone, they do not have to serve that person.
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:34 AM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
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Whip out a cellphone and threaten to make a viral video of this terrible injustice.

Last edited by Ashtura; 01-07-2019 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:01 PM
Joey P Joey P is offline
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Just leave. That's all you can do. Go to another store and buy your stuff there.
Remember that even if you just wanted to buy some Skittles, they can turn you away and, should it go this far, the police will back them up and/or trespass you.

Be it cigarettes or Gatorade, they're not required to sell you anything.
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:29 PM
Folacin Folacin is offline
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As others have said, they don't have to sell you a pack of gum (assuming it isn't bias against a protected class).

What I would be worried about is an over-zealous clerk destroying the 'fake' ID. I don't know if that is a real thing, but it pops up on social media occasionally. That would probably be actionable against the clerk/store, but you still don't have an ID until you can replace it.
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:36 PM
Joey P Joey P is offline
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As others have said, they don't have to sell you a pack of gum (assuming it isn't bias against a protected class).

What I would be worried about is an over-zealous clerk destroying the 'fake' ID. I don't know if that is a real thing, but it pops up on social media occasionally. That would probably be actionable against the clerk/store, but you still don't have an ID until you can replace it.
If I presented the clerk with a my ID and they proceeded to confiscate or destroy it, I'd probably call the police and let them sort it out.
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:45 PM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
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If I presented the clerk with a my ID and they proceeded to confiscate or destroy it, I'd probably call the police and let them sort it out.
Hmm, I've only heard about that with credit cards. In which case I'd pitch a huge fit as well.
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:50 PM
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What I would be worried about is an over-zealous clerk destroying the 'fake' ID.
That could be very serious if the ID were your passport and you were travelling. I see that in the US this is actually a crime.
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:52 PM
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Whip out a cellphone and threaten to make a viral video of this terrible injustice.
Heh. You make a video and sometimes that video goes viral. You cannot "make" a viral video..

Cite: my gf's rant about clients who ask that her agency "make a viral video".
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:53 PM
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Hmm, I've only heard about that with credit cards. In which case I'd pitch a huge fit as well.
You'd likely be out of luck there. The contract with the issuing bank usually says that the bank; not you, own the credit card. I've never seen a card destroyed without instructions from the issuing bank, but even were that to occur I doubt that the bank will make much of a fuss on your behalf.
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:45 PM
Joey P Joey P is offline
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Hmm, I've only heard about that with credit cards. In which case I'd pitch a huge fit as well.
I guess I haven't either. For some reason I thought I read that in the OP. If they don't want to sell you something you really don't have any recourse.
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:02 PM
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That could be very serious if the ID were your passport and you were travelling. I see that in the US this is actually a crime.
As I said, I've only heard of this as an internet thing, and it always involves a drivers license. I can't imagine any clerk taking it upon themselves to declare a passport a fake, but imagination has failed me before.
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:27 PM
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As I said, I've only heard of this as an internet thing, and it always involves a drivers license. I can't imagine any clerk taking it upon themselves to declare a passport a fake, but imagination has failed me before.
Most drivers licenses are fairly solid plastic cards nowadays. I can't imagine someone taking it upon themselves to destroy one, it's not like you can rip it in half... But I guess the jobs where you have to check ID could attract some shy-of-a-full-load types.

Last edited by md2000; 01-07-2019 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:40 PM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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What I would be worried about is an over-zealous clerk destroying the 'fake' ID. I don't know if that is a real thing, but it pops up on social media occasionally. That would probably be actionable against the clerk/store, but you still don't have an ID until you can replace it.
Right. I read the NotAlwaysRight.com website (stories about idiotic customers and idiotic retail employees) and there are occasionally stories about some bartender or bouncer or liquor store clerk who takes it up themselves to destroy an ID that they've deemed to be fake. Sometimes this is because they don't recognize the state or province or whatever the ID is from (like the one clerk who thought New Mexico was a foreign country).
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:49 PM
griffin1977 griffin1977 is offline
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I've known people get their valid IDs confiscated for being fake here in San Francisco (known personally, not friend of a friend urban legend stuff). Its utter bullshit, and totally illegal (there is nothing that gives a business a right to steal your property in CA). Though many bar staff don't know that (and think they are bound by ABC regulations to do so). If it happened to me I would file a police report and ABC complaint.

In defense of the bar staff there are so many ABC regulations that are completely insane and make no sense at all. So this particular insane nonsensical one being true would be par for the course.

Last edited by griffin1977; 01-07-2019 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:19 PM
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Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is offline
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I filled in at a liquor store a few times awhile back. We were charged with carding everyone. Every. One. God, some people went berserk. The store was on a state hi-way and the last stop for liquor before 2 dry counties. So we got some doozies. Never saw a fake ID. Plenty of underagers trying us out. People got madder at the request for ID for smokes than they did for liquor, I have to say.
We confiscated a bunch of counterfeit money. Amazing how much fake money is around.
ABC told us we could refuse sales to any one for any reason.
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:24 PM
EdelweissPirate EdelweissPirate is offline
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This actually happened to me. I had just turned 18 and happened to be traveling through New Orleans with some friends who were also 18. My friends wanted to go to a strip club on Bourbon Street. The bouncer let my friends in without a problem but stopped me. I’ve always looked young for my age, and the bouncer insisted that my ID was fake and wouldn’t let me in.

New Orleans had changed its drinking age from 18 to 21 a few years before, and the club had a two-drink minimum. I didn’t drink at the time, and thinking that underage drinking was the bouncer’s concern, I made my willingness to buy two $5 Diet Cokes explicit. He was unpersuaded.

I wanted to follow my friends, so I kept insisting. Eventually, the bouncer relented, but only after calling over an older woman in a velvet robe and telling her to keep an eye on me.

Bouncers who routinely destroy valid IDs probably get fired. But I doubt they do that very often, even the ones who are drunk with power. Anyone whose truly valid ID has been seized will argue vociferously, to the point of calling the police to get their ID back. People presenting fake IDs don’t want the police there, as they are committing a crime; they’ll skulk away before the police arrive.

It makes no sense to destroy an ID preemptively. Bouncers must simply wait until the police show up and comply with whatever the cops say they should do. Police reports from incidents like this could even help the establishment if they ever get stung for letting underage people drink—places that are generally lax about that wouldn’t be seizing IDs at all, whether fake or “fake.” So having police reports that record seizures of legit IDs could help establish that the bar/club in question is making a good-faith effort to deny service to underage patrons.

I don’t see an incentive for a bar/club/liquor store to destroy any IDs. Obviously fake ones could be seized, partly because those who present them probably won’t fight to get them back. Besides, lots of places display seized fake IDs in prominent view, probably to deter those with un-seized fake IDs.

Last edited by EdelweissPirate; 01-07-2019 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Hit “post quick reply” instead of “preview.”
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:32 PM
Tim@T-Bonham.net Tim@T-Bonham.net is offline
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Remember that even if you just wanted to buy some Skittles, they can turn you away and, should it go this far, the police will back them up and/or trespass you.
In many areas, the police can easily scan the ID with the computer in their car, pull up the picture from the state license file, and verify that you are that person, and that it is not fake, but a real ID.

Of course, the store still does not have to sell to you. But you would have valid reason to complain about that clerk to the corporate office. And possibly file a complaint with the State Liquor Licensing Board.
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What I would be worried about is an over-zealous clerk destroying the 'fake' ID. I don't know if that is a real thing, but it pops up on social media occasionally. That would probably be actionable against the clerk/store, but you still don't have an ID until you can replace it.
That would have to be a really stupid clerk to do that. (And probably won't be employed as a clerk for very long afterwards.)

Proper procedure would be to confiscate the 'fake' ID -- refuse to give it back and place it in the cash register. Then report it to management, and they can deal with the customer and appropriate authorities. Same as is done with counterfeit cash, or an invalid credit card.
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:35 PM
psychonaut psychonaut is offline
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As others have said, they don't have to sell you a pack of gum (assuming it isn't bias against a protected class).
And what if it's a government-run store? In many jurisdictions the state has a monopoly on alcohol sales, so going to a different store simply isn't possible. And going to a different branch of the same store might not be feasible (for example, if it's the only liquor store in your town). I'm not sure the government can legally deny a sale in such a case, any more than they could deny to issue you a marriage licence or driving licence just because they can't authenticate the ID that they themselves issued you.
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:42 PM
EdelweissPirate EdelweissPirate is offline
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I filled in at a liquor store a few times awhile back. We were charged with carding everyone. Every. One. God, some people went berserk.
I had the inverse experience. As I said in a post above, I look young for my age. Between the ages of roughly 16-19, I used to get pulled over all the time by cops who were pretty sure they’d caught a 14-year-old out for a joy ride. One cop in particular went berserk: he yelled at me and berated me, at one point suggesting anyone driving at 70 MPH was traveling faster than a bullet from his pistol. (He was off by an order of magnitude). It was a bizarre rant on many levels.

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ABC told us we could refuse sales to any one for any reason.
Well, your local ABC (Alcoholic Beverage Control?) was wrong. Systematically refusing to sell to black people, for example, would obviously be illegal. Their point was surely that you could refuse to sell to anyone who you suspected of being underage even if you couldn’t prove that. Similarly, you could refuse to sell to someone who you found uncivil, who lacked a shirt/shoes, or whatever. But “for any reason” isn’t literally true.
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:51 PM
griffin1977 griffin1977 is offline
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Proper procedure would be to confiscate the 'fake' ID -- refuse to give it back and place it in the cash register. Then report it to management, and they can deal with the customer and appropriate authorities. Same as is done with counterfeit cash, or an invalid credit card.
In what jurisdiction? In CA if you take my ID and refuse to give it back you have just committed theft, and I will be calling the police (realistically filing a police report) and (more seriously for you) registering a complaint with the ABC.

Nothing in CA law gives you the right to steal my important government-issued document from me, just because you think it looks funny.

Last edited by griffin1977; 01-07-2019 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:01 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Of course, the store still does not have to sell to you. But you would have valid reason to complain about that clerk to the corporate office. And possibly file a complaint with the State Liquor Licensing Board..
No. If the simply and politely refuse to sell to you, no one should do anything about it.
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:10 PM
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I had the inverse experience. As I said in a post above, I look young for my age. Between the ages of roughly 16-19, I used to get pulled over all the time by cops who were pretty sure they’d caught a 14-year-old out for a joy ride. One cop in particular went berserk: he yelled at me and berated me, at one point suggesting anyone driving at 70 MPH was traveling faster than a bullet from his pistol. (He was off by an order of magnitude). It was a bizarre rant on many levels.



Well, your local ABC (Alcoholic Beverage Control?) was wrong. Systematically refusing to sell to black people, for example, would obviously be illegal. Their point was surely that you could refuse to sell to anyone who you suspected of being underage even if you couldn’t prove that. Similarly, you could refuse to sell to someone who you found uncivil, who lacked a shirt/shoes, or whatever. But “for any reason” isn’t literally true.
Well, barring not selling to a protected class. If we thought the person was too intoxicated, too young, too beligerant, buying for young people it didn't matter thier color or disabilities. We routinely refused sales to the very intoxicated.

Last edited by Beckdawrek; 01-07-2019 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:12 PM
Tim@T-Bonham.net Tim@T-Bonham.net is offline
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In what jurisdiction? In CA if you take my ID and refuse to give it back you have just committed theft, and I will be calling the police (realistically filing a police report) and (more seriously for you) registering a complaint with the ABC.

Nothing in CA law gives you the right to steal my important government-issued document from me, just because you think it looks funny.
Fake IDs, counterfeit cash, etc. are contraband, and nobody has a legal right to posses them. So it's not "theft" if they're taken from you.

If you call the police, they will determine if the ID is fake or not. If it's not, they will have the clerk give it back to you. You could still try filing a theft charge against the clerk; unlikely that any county attorney would pursue such a case. (They want clerks to be diligent about checking for fake IDs. They even run stings looking for lax clerks.)
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:23 PM
griffin1977 griffin1977 is offline
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Fake IDs, counterfeit cash, etc. are contraband, and nobody has a legal right to posses them. So it's not "theft" if they're taken from you.
That doesn't mean you can just take something because you think it looks funny. Saying "contraband" does not give you any special rights. Taking my ID is theft, no clerk or barman should be stealing stuff from their customers.

Counterfeit currency is a very different for many reasons. Not least that it was handed over without the expectation of getting it back (though with the expectation that they'd fraudulently get something in return).


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If you call the police, they will determine if the ID is fake or not. If it's not, they will have the clerk give it back to you. You could still try filing a theft charge against the clerk; unlikely that any county attorney would pursue such a case. (They want clerks to be diligent about checking for fake IDs. They even run stings looking for lax clerks.)
The police are very unlikely to turn up. But that doesn't change the fact that theft just took place. I would be completely within my rights to file an ABC complaint, that theft was carried out by the staff (naming the staff member who carried it out).

That is not an empty threat, it could have serious repercussions for the establishment. And its how I'd handle the case in the OP (which, as I said, happened to someone I know in SF).

Someone thinking they can steal my important legal ID is bullshit. There is no legal basis for that. Saying "I thought it was contraband" doesn't change that.

Last edited by griffin1977; 01-07-2019 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 01-08-2019, 05:15 AM
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Fake IDs, counterfeit cash, etc. are contraband, and nobody has a legal right to posses them. So it's not "theft" if they're taken from you.
I almost had an interesting case a few years ago. The facts were as follows. A hotel maid is cleaning a room and finds several stamps of heroin in the room (located in a convenience store bag). She confiscates them and takes them to the front desk, still in the convenience store bag.

She tells the manager who places the bag by the phone. As he is calling the police, the hotel guest (allegedly) walks by, sees the bag, yoinks them and runs out the front door.

In addition to possession of the drugs, the state charged him with larceny as well. I remember thinking that they were going to have trouble with proving that it was the registered guest of the hotel anyways, but to your point, how could they possibly charge him with larceny? Because: 1) heroin is an illegal substance and the state does not recognize title vesting in anyone, and 2) assuming otherwise, the hotel did not possess title, he did. If anything the hotel stole the drugs from him.

Another interesting thing would be the convenience store bag itself. That is not illegal. Would the hotel maid be guilty of the larceny of that item?
  #27  
Old 01-08-2019, 05:21 AM
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Fake IDs, counterfeit cash, etc. are contraband, and nobody has a legal right to posses them.
Cite for the claim that merely possessing fake ID (as opposed to actually using it to obtain something to which you normally wouldn't have access, or to impersonate a third party) is illegal?
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Old 01-08-2019, 06:04 AM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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Cite for the claim that merely possessing fake ID (as opposed to actually using it to obtain something to which you normally wouldn't have access, or to impersonate a third party) is illegal?
I know that this was not directed at me, but just working this out legally on the fly, assuming that the mere possession of a fake ID is not illegal (which based upon my 30 second analysis, I believe is correct) there is a crime committed in all of the scenarios above in that the person is attempting to use the fake ID to obtain a benefit: the purchase of alcohol that he or she is not legally permitted to purchase.

So, at minimum, the clerk has probable cause to believe he has witnessed a misdemeanor crime. However, in my state (and I believe most others) a citizen's arrest may be had only upon probable cause of a felony, or a misdemeanor breach of the peace committed in his presence. Unlawful purchase of alcohol is, I would think, undisputedly not a breach of the peace, so there is no privilege of arrest by the clerk.

But may he confiscate the ID as evidence for future prosecution of a crime? Keep in mind that he did not use force to procure the ID as the purchaser handed it to him. He did not take it with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of the ID; he took it presumably to present it to the police for lawful disposition whether that be to return it to the holder or to confiscate it for criminal prosecution. So "theft" is not an accurate term.

Unlike joyriding in a car, there is no crime in temporarily keeping someone else's other property for longer than agreed, that I can think of. That would be a civil tort. And like most things in law, I believe that the reasonableness and good faith in his action would decide the outcome.

Does he not believe that New Mexico is really a state? You may have something there. Is it an obvious cut and paste job where the birthdate is clearly altered? Not so much.
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Old 01-08-2019, 06:31 AM
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I've had store owners refuse to accept my expired drivers license as valid in order to buy beer before despite the fact I was 26 at the time and it was just a year expired. For those wondering, it was because I used to keep my current drivers license in my cars glove compartment and keep my old one as ID in case my wallet got stolen. So dumb.
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Old 01-08-2019, 07:48 AM
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When working at a shop I once had a guy produce a letter from the Israeli embassy as an 'ID'. He was absolutely furious at me when I refused to take it -for a start, it was just a letter printed on normal office paper, and didn't have a photo or anything.

Apparently I was disrespecting the Israeli government by my refusal, because they'd told him it was valid until he got his replacement passport issued. For immigration purposes maybe hon, but not for buying a beer.

Most of the fakes are very obvious; 'holograms' that are just silver paint, blurry illegible text and blank backs on driving licenses. A few of my colleagues confiscated them (mostly to laugh at later), I never did.
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Old 01-08-2019, 07:49 AM
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I know that this was not directed at me, but just working this out legally on the fly, assuming that the mere possession of a fake ID is not illegal (which based upon my 30 second analysis, I believe is correct) there is a crime committed in all of the scenarios above in that the person is attempting to use the fake ID to obtain a benefit: the purchase of alcohol that he or she is not legally permitted to purchase.
The first hit I got when I looked it up was CA penal code 470b PC.
Quote:
Every person who displays or causes or permits to be displayed or has in his possession any driver's license or identification card with the intent that such driver's license or identification card be used to facilitate the commission of any forgery, is punishable by...
Very quickly reading it over, it appears that simply owning one isn't illegal, but as soon you use it or attempt to use it, it is illegal.
Also, if an officer were ever to catch you with one (ie they pat you down for something unrelated), I can't imagine you won't get charged and it'll be up to you/your attorney to prove that you never used it and had no intent on using it, even though you were carrying it around.
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Old 01-08-2019, 07:58 AM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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Of course, it would first be up to the prosecutor to prove that it's a fake ID, as opposed to a movie prop or anything else.

Given that the bar bouncer hasn't proven anything, I doubt they have the right to confiscate anything.
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Old 01-08-2019, 08:29 AM
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Most of the fakes are very obvious; 'holograms' that are just silver paint, blurry illegible text and blank backs on driving licenses.
A friend was once searching her 17 year old daughter's bedroom. She found a PA driver's license with her daughter's picture and a date of birth that made her 21. It looked legit.

She kept the DL and later showed it to me. I compared it to my PA DL and couldn't find any reason to think it a forgery. We took it to a bar owned by a friend of mine and showed it to him. He used a black light, a very bright white light, and a magnifying glass; he judged the license to be real.

When confronted, the daughter refused to discuss the situation.
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Old 01-08-2019, 09:10 AM
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Wisconsin law deals with this. To an extent.

125.039  Civil liability exemption for retaining proofs of age

No person who holds a license or permit and no employee of such a person is civilly liable for retaining a document presented as proof of age for a reasonable length of time in a good faith effort to determine whether the person who presented the document is an underage person or to notify a law enforcement authority of a suspected violation of s. 125.085 (3) (a) or (b).

Notice it doesn't define what a "reasonable amount of time" is. It also does not protect against destroying an ID.

During my first LEO career I was a compliance investigator in the vice sector of the detective bureau. Whenever we did an announced visit to a store or tavern we'd always receive at least a few false ID's. What usually happened was the clerk or bartender would say they were calling the police to have them determine if the ID was real. If it was fake the person would run out, leaving the ID.

The state provides a manaual that includes instructions on how to check ID's (Page 14). Notice it doesn't say to destroy a suspected ID.

Suspected fake identification should be turned over to the police ASAP if not immediately. Destroying it is destroying evidence of a crime.

ETA: OP: Even if the police were to have come and determined the ID was legit, the store doesn't have to sell you anything. But you already know that.

Last edited by pkbites; 01-08-2019 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 01-08-2019, 09:15 AM
griffin1977 griffin1977 is offline
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I know that this was not directed at me, but just working this out legally on the fly, assuming that the mere possession of a fake ID is not illegal (which based upon my 30 second analysis, I believe is correct) there is a crime committed in all of the scenarios above in that the person is attempting to use the fake ID to obtain a benefit: the purchase of alcohol that he or she is not legally permitted to purchase.

So, at minimum, the clerk has probable cause to believe he has witnessed a misdemeanor crime. However, in my state (and I believe most others) a citizen's arrest may be had only upon probable cause of a felony, or a misdemeanor breach of the peace committed in his presence. Unlawful purchase of alcohol is, I would think, undisputedly not a breach of the peace, so there is no privilege of arrest by the clerk.

But may he confiscate the ID as evidence for future prosecution of a crime? Keep in mind that he did not use force to procure the ID as the purchaser handed it to him. He did not take it with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of the ID; he took it presumably to present it to the police for lawful disposition whether that be to return it to the holder or to confiscate it for criminal prosecution. So "theft" is not an accurate term.

Unlike joyriding in a car, there is no crime in temporarily keeping someone else's other property for longer than agreed, that I can think of.
*Walks up to stranger*
"Hey can I see your wallet a second. It's for a... err.. science project"
*Hands over wallet*
"Thanks!"
*Walks off*

Sounds like theft to me

Last edited by griffin1977; 01-08-2019 at 09:16 AM.
  #36  
Old 01-08-2019, 09:33 AM
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In NC, the ABC (state-controlled liquor sales) store clerks WILL not only keep your ID, but will call the police if:

1. The ID appears to them to be counterfeit or altered; or

2. You are underage.

I've witnessed this many times. On one occasion, a 20 YO guy tried to buy a bottle of liquor using an out-of-state license. During the license check, the guy said, "Oh, wait! I have to be 21 here, right? It's only 18 in my state. Sorry!" Didn't help. The clerk slipped the license into his cash drawer and phoned the police immediately. I didn't hang around to see what happened.

So, it would actually be a big deal if the clerk believed that the ID was no good and the police would definitely have to be called to sort it out.
  #37  
Old 01-08-2019, 09:38 AM
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Last edited by Lord Feldon; 01-08-2019 at 09:39 AM.
  #38  
Old 01-08-2019, 10:39 AM
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Ike Witt Ike Witt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
A friend was once searching her 17 year old daughter's bedroom. She found a PA driver's license with her daughter's picture and a date of birth that made her 21. It looked legit.

She kept the DL and later showed it to me. I compared it to my PA DL and couldn't find any reason to think it a forgery. We took it to a bar owned by a friend of mine and showed it to him. He used a black light, a very bright white light, and a magnifying glass; he judged the license to be real.

When confronted, the daughter refused to discuss the situation.
My guess is the DL was real. There most certainly was a piece of fake ID with a false birthdate on it that was used to get the real ID.

When I went to college, as a freshman, somebody was selling blank baptismal certificates. I bought one and filled it out and used that to get an official State of California ID card with the date making me 21.
  #39  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:10 AM
dorvann dorvann is offline
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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
Of course, it would first be up to the prosecutor to prove that it's a fake ID, as opposed to a movie prop or anything else.

Given that the bar bouncer hasn't proven anything, I doubt they have the right to confiscate anything.
Even if the ID was a made as a movie prop, if someone presented to a bouncer as a real ID wouldn't that still constitute the crime of using a false ID?
  #40  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:40 AM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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Ultimately - admission to a bar, selling liquor, whatever - the law may require that the person check ID. The law may even list approved ID (or state something like "government issued with photo, date of birth".) The person selling liquor (or whatever) or his employer is liable if they sell and the person turns out to be under age. So they must be satisfied the ID satisfies the criteria they must meet. if they are not satisfied, erring on the side of caution is the safest route. "I don't selling you a case of beer, you yell at me. I sell you beer and you are under age, I get charged, fired, criminal record and possible jail or big fine. Decisions, decisions..."

I have never heard of any situation where the checker is obliged to keep or destroy that ID, however.

This applies to plenty of other situations. you must provide ID to board an airplane, you must provide ID to open a bank account. Someone I know was travelling after recently moving to a new state, and her temporary driver's license was a piece of paper (and DMV takes your previous license). With some non-government ID, she was allowed to board but TSA put her through the full pat-down process. In every case, the person viewing the ID has the opton to refuse it, and you have the option (sometimes) to ask to talk to their boss.

Last edited by md2000; 01-08-2019 at 11:42 AM.
  #41  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by md2000 View Post
"I don't selling you a case of beer, you yell at me. I sell you beer and you are under age, I get charged, fired, criminal record and possible jail or big fine. Decisions, decisions..."
My state allows stores/bars to sue an underager who comes into their establishment and buys/gets served alcohol:

C. A licensed alcohol beverage retailer may bring a civil action against a person who violates the state's underage drinking law, if the following conditions are met:
• The conduct must occur on the retailer's premises
• The retailer must mail notice of the intent to bring action to the underage person or the underage person's parent, as applicable at least 15 days prior to filing the action
• The retailer must not have been convicted of, received a citation for, or been charged with a violation of the underage drinking law
• The retailer must have reported the suspect-ed conduct to law enforcement at or near the time when the conduct was first discov-ered
This provision does not apply if the underage per-son was employed by or assisting a law enforcement agency in carrying out enforcement to determine compliance with, or investigating poten-tial violations of the prohibition on underage persons in licensed premises. A retailer prevailing in the civil action shall be awarded $1,000 in dam-ages and the costs of bringing the civil action. (Sec. 125.07(4)(f), Wis. Stats.)
  #42  
Old 01-08-2019, 01:39 PM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin1977 View Post
Someone thinking they can steal my important legal ID is bullshit. There is no legal basis for that. Saying "I thought it was contraband" doesn't change that.
Yes, it does.

Theft (like many crimes) is more than just having something that isn't yours. Your mental state matters. Generally, it requires that you're knowingly taking something that doesn't belong to you.

For example, if you accidentally get in the wrong car and drive it away, that's not theft. It's a mistake.

If the clerk has a legitimate and reasonable belief that the license is fake, then he doesn't think that he's taking your legitimate property. He thinks that he's seizing contraband. Therefore: not theft.

Destroying a government id is probably a separate crime. But holding onto it if you think it's fake until the police sort it out likely isn't. It's maybe possible that you have some sort of civil claim against him for wasting your time.
  #43  
Old 01-08-2019, 02:19 PM
purplehorseshoe purplehorseshoe is offline
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In the scenario I gave in the O.P. where my driver's license is legit, the "confiscate/give to police" solution leaves me ... with no way to leave. (At least, not legally, assuming I drove myself.)

The cops aren't going to rush over for a non-violent situation. Probably be a couple hours at least. So, now what? I just hang around, loitering, glaring at the clerk who took my driver's license, just because I look youngish?
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  #44  
Old 01-08-2019, 05:58 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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I had this happen to me when I was 20, buying some cigarettes. Some of it is well remembered, some of it not so much after a couple of decades.

I went to the convenience store next to where I worked that I went to nearly every night to pick up a couple of packs on my way home. They had a new person working that night.

I went to the counter with my 12 pack of mountain dew, and asked for 2 packs of Kamel Reds.

She gives me a dirty look, and asks for ID. This is when I first noticed that this was not one of the people that I had dealt with on numerous occasions before.

I say, "Certainly." and I pull it our and hand it to her. She looks at it, looks at me, and says, "This isn't your ID. There's no way that you are 20."

I say, "Yes, it is my ID. I live at #### like is says on there." Thinking that confirming my address would give some reason to believe me.

She says, "I can sell you the pop, but not the cigarettes." I say, "Fine, I'll just go somewhere else." and I hold out my hand for my ID.

She puts it in the drawer, closes it, and says, "No, you're not getting this back."

Well, now I'm in a bit of a bind. She's got my ID, and I kinda need it. If nothing else, I probably will be carded when I go somewhere else, and I was very low on smokes, not to mention being rather uncomfortable with the idea of operating my motor vehicle without having my license on me.

I tell her I'm not leaving without it. If she doesn't want to make a sale, that is one thing, but I will not leave until she returns my ID. To this, she says "Okay." then walks away and proceeds to ignore me. (This is nearly 2 in the morning, so I'm the only one in the store.)

Now, I'm actually a bit angry at the position that she has put me in, so I raise my voice a bit, telling her that she is not going to blow me off like this, and that she needs to return my property. At this, she now threatens to call the police, to which I agree is a great idea, I tell her that they can come down here, sort this out, and when they do, they are going to give me my ID back, and I am going to ask them if there is anything we can charge her with for her theft of my property.

So, she calls the police, and, while glaring at me, says that I am trespassing, and won't leave, even after she has asked me to. I suppose this gets the police there faster than if it's just a dispute over an ID.

I walk outside at this, and go sit in my car until the cop shows up. He doesn't look all that amused, and I see him walk inside and start talking to the clerk. At this point, I exit my car, and re-enter the building. He turns as I enter, and asks, "Are you the one that she called about?"

"I guess", I answer. "She took my ID, and won't give it back. I *can't* leave without it."

"She said that she told you to leave, and you refused, is this true?"

"Ummm, no. The first time she said anything about me needing to leave was when she called you guys, and told you that she had told me to leave. Before that, when I told her that I wasn't going to leave without the ID that she took from me, she was ignoring me and refusing to respond to my request that she return my property."

"I just need her to return my ID, and I will leave, and probably never shop here again."

So, he asks her to hand over the ID, which she does, while looking at me smugly. The cop looks at it, looks at me, asks my address and my birthdate, and then hands it back to me.

I thank him, ask him if there is anything else he needs from me. He says no, so I head home, stopping on my way home at a slightly less convenient store to pick up my much needed (especially at this point) nicotine injection tubes.

All in all, it took a bit less than an hour.

I didn't hold to my vow to not shop there again, as I never saw her again. I talked to some of the other clerks, and they weren't sure what happened with her, but she wasn't working there anymore.
  #45  
Old 01-08-2019, 06:10 PM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehorseshoe View Post
In the scenario I gave in the O.P. where my driver's license is legit, the "confiscate/give to police" solution leaves me ... with no way to leave. (At least, not legally, assuming I drove myself.)

The cops aren't going to rush over for a non-violent situation. Probably be a couple hours at least. So, now what? I just hang around, loitering, glaring at the clerk who took my driver's license, just because I look youngish?
A couple of hours seems pretty bad for a response there.

But... yeah, kinda. Occasionally people are dicks and waste your time and there's not always a legal remedy. Not every way someone can come up with for being a bad person is criminal. Like I said, you might have a civil claim. I doubt that a criminal case would hold up.

Go back to my "accidentally drove the wrong car home" case. This isn't a hypothetical; it does occasionally happen. It used to happen more with older cars that had relatively few key blanks and sometimes people would forget where they parked and their key happened to fit and start the wrong car. Not a lot, but it's a big country. It's happening more now that keyless ignition is a standard thing and sometimes people forget and leave their keys inside their cars and someone absentminded gets in and drives away because the car starts right up.

Probably an even bigger inconvenience to have someone take your car, but it's generally not a criminal act.

Last edited by iamthewalrus(:3=; 01-08-2019 at 06:11 PM.
  #46  
Old 01-08-2019, 07:06 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin1977 View Post
*Walks up to stranger*
"Hey can I see your wallet a second. It's for a... err.. science project"
*Hands over wallet*
"Thanks!"
*Walks off*

Sounds like theft to me
In your example, you have the intent to permanently deprive the wallet owner of his lawful possessory interest in the wallet and have used deceit in order to have him hand it to you for that purpose.

There is no similarity at all to the examples above.
  #47  
Old 01-09-2019, 11:43 AM
griffin1977 griffin1977 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
In your example, you have the intent to permanently deprive the wallet owner of his lawful possessory interest in the wallet and have used deceit in order to have him hand it to you for that purpose.

There is no similarity at all to the examples above.
So taking someone's property and refusing to return it when asked, IS theft.

If a barman takes my government ID and refuses to return it that is absolutely theft. I am reporting it to the police and ABC as such if it happens to me.
  #48  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:10 PM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin1977 View Post
So taking someone's property and refusing to return it when asked, IS theft.

If a barman takes my government ID and refuses to return it that is absolutely theft. I am reporting it to the police and ABC as such if it happens to me.
Did you read any of my posts? That's not how criminal law works. By all means you should report it to the police. But what you should expect is to get your ID back, not to have the barman arrested for theft.
  #49  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:06 PM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
In your example, you have the intent to permanently deprive the wallet owner of his lawful possessory interest in the wallet and have used deceit in order to have him hand it to you for that purpose.

There is no similarity at all to the examples above.
There's a long article currently on DPReview.com about "camera stolen legally". (Then they dropped "legally" from the title) The gist is he joined a cooperative camera rental group, someone "rented" his camera and never brought it back. Insurance called it "voluntary parting" and so it was not covered as theft.

Similarly, I read about a couple form Canada who were subletting their Texas winter home. The person arranging this gave the key to a prospective tenant to check out the place, then the guy moved in without an agreed lease and never paid any rent. The police declined to arrest or evict - "you gave him the key so it's not break and enter, it's a civil matter".

If you voluntarily part with something, when does it become theft?
  #50  
Old 01-09-2019, 05:34 PM
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I'm not a lawyer, but I think in order to prove theft, you need to prove that the person who did so never intended to keep up their part of the agreement. Basically, you need to prove that the whole arrangement was fraudulent.

Also, in both of your examples, there are complicating matters.

In the first: losses that the insurance covers under "theft" and acts that fit the criminal statute of "theft" aren't necessarily the same set. It's possible that this does count as theft legally, but that it's hard enough to prove that the police aren't going to bother with it, but also that it isn't covered under insurance.

In the second, there are a few things that complicate it. One, the guy hasn't stolen anything. Like, he's not claiming he owns the home. He's just living in it without a lease, which is a thing that lots of people do. And two, there's a large body of law that deals with "squatters" who are living somewhere ostensibly without the landlord's permission, and it tends to strongly favor the assumed tenant. Primarily because there's a history of nefarious landlords abusing their power by throwing people out onto the street who had a right to live there and nowhere else to go.

Imagine that someone came to test-drive a car you were selling, then disappeared with it. The police would not say that since you gave him the key, it was a civil matter.
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