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Old 01-11-2019, 01:18 AM
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Trump's Shutdown

News of agencies cutting staff, services being curtailed, etc. are all over the board, popping up in threads in this forum, MPSIMS and in Elections (primarily) and it's getting hard for me to remember where I saw what, so I thought a thread with a catchy and historically accurate title might help us all to consolidate events and our thoughts on them.

The thing that particularly caught my eye tonight was the notice that the EPA Superfund sites were shutting down: Shutdown suspends federal cleanups at US Superfund sites.
Quote:
The government shutdown has suspended federal cleanups at Superfund sites around the nation and forced the cancellation of public hearings, deepening the mistrust and resentment of surrounding residents who feel people in power long ago abandoned them to live among the toxic residue of the country’s factories and mines.

“We are already hurting, and it’s just adding more fuel to the fire,” says 40-year-old Keisha Brown, whose wood-frame home is in a community nestled among coking plants and other factories on Birmingham’s north side.

The mostly African-American community has been forced to cope with high levels of arsenic, lead and other contaminants in the soil that the Environmental Protection Agency has been scraping up and carting away, house by house.
There are reports that the military is looking at re-directing money meant for Puerto Rico, still devastated more than a year after Hurricane Maria. It is looking more and more likely that the lack of services will soon be actively hurting American citizens.

I predicted in another thread that this shutdown would last 1-2 months, but that I wouldn't be at all surprised for it to last much longer.

How long will the American people put up with the lack of services we are all about to experience?

How long will the American people put up with a president who actively harms them? Who lies to them? Who steals from them?

This is Trump's Shutdown: every bad thing that happens is his fault and no one else's.

ETA: What a fucking jackass he is. Just a complete fucking asshole. 100% a dick.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 01-11-2019 at 01:19 AM. Reason: I forgot to curse in the OP. :eek:
  #2  
Old 01-11-2019, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
How long will the American people put up with the lack of services we are all about to experience?

How long will the American people put up with a president who actively harms them? Who lies to them? Who steals from them?

This is Trump's Shutdown: every bad thing that happens is his fault and no one else's. What a fucking jackass he is. Just a complete fucking asshole. 100% a dick.
I'm bullish on American apathy and stupidity.

As I keep sayin, mate. We're going to have to go through hell...before we can get to heaven.

That's a fact. Keep whistlin past the graveyard and cursing my name if y'all wish, but this is where we're headed.

What I want everyone to remember is that we're past the point of just a normal correction, a normal adjustment at the ballot box. This country needs to get shocked in the balls. It needs to get angry. It needs to be pissed off. I don't see that happening when we're at full employment. I see it happening when we're standing in line at soup kitchens, fighting in the streets over loaves of bread, and veterans are rioting over not getting their retirement. That's not my prediction...that's our history. History will repeat itself.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:08 AM
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You're incredibly boring.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:17 AM
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I just read the FDA has now stopped inspecting for food safety in many places.

What? How can that be acceptable to anyone! Ever?

(I think I’ll be buying Canadian!)
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:59 AM
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Air traffic controllers are not being paid, but are still required to show up to work.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:06 AM
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I'm getting increasingly angry at the Senate and congress for letting this continue. My stance isn't that they should give in and give him the money, but that he needs to be impeached and indicted for extortion. I also feel strongly that our federal workers should NOT be furloughed or work without pay. It should be congress and the senate who are working without pay until this is resolved.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:06 AM
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They’ll put up with it for awhile. The functions that are actually services such as in the air travel sector can be done privately.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:11 AM
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The other day at work, I was trying to find the commercial description of a light bulb ( ie 7w G40 LED Warm Glow) based on an uninformative manufacturer model number ( ie PHILIPS 1234567890 ). I was trying to purchase a bulb based on a test report that only referenced the model number. I thought it would be easy but none of the commercial listings referenced the model number. So I googled the model number and found a site that purported to contain a cross-reference table.

The site was a government site though, and a banner on the site said the information on it is not available during the shutdown. So I had to buy the most likely candidate and test it myself.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 01-11-2019 at 09:13 AM.
  #9  
Old 01-11-2019, 09:20 AM
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Yeah getting on the horn with a manufacturer is tough.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
They’ll put up with it for awhile. The functions that are actually services such as in the air travel sector can be done privately.


Not if the "private" company isn't being paid, they're not.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:32 AM
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Not if the "private" company isn't being paid, they're not.
Why wouldn’t they get paid? Everyone else who supplies a service that satisfies consumers’ desires gets paid.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 01-11-2019 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:34 AM
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One thing is certain: Trump supporters will blame Democrats for this. Even if they suffer as a result of this, they'll blame Democrats. Trump supporters, as is quite visible on this board, are not the sharpest spoons in the drawer. Shit, Republican lawmakers and then run of the mill Republican voters will by and large blame Democrats for this. The idea that anything on the Republican side of politics is dependent on making sense is long gone, America.

Last edited by bobot; 01-11-2019 at 09:35 AM.
  #13  
Old 01-11-2019, 09:43 AM
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Why wouldn’t they get paid? Everyone else who supplies a service that satisfies consumers’ desires gets paid.
Because the government is shut down. Have you not heard this? Even the topic of this thread is called "Trump's shutdown."

Government contractors aren't getting paid. Therefore, if you have a contract with the government to supply, say $50,000/week in air traffic controllers to whatever airport(s), you're not getting that $50k this week. Meaning that either:

1. Your employees go unpaid, or
2. You eat the payroll cost until you get paid

I mean, seriously, Will: How do you not know this?

Last edited by JohnT; 01-11-2019 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:48 AM
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Because the government is shut down. Have you not heard this? Even the topic of this thread is called "Trump's shutdown."

Government contractors aren't getting paid. Therefore, if you have a contract with the government to supply, say $50,000/week in air traffic controllers to whatever airport(s), you're not getting that $50k this week. Meaning that either:

1. Your employees go unpaid, or
2. You eat the payroll cost until you get paid

I mean, seriously, Will: How do you not know this?
I assume he is assuming complete privatization of air traffic control. So, I guess, the airlines pay the controllers directly. Not sure how that works - if different companies have contracts in different airports, how do they talk? And if Southwest has a contract with company A, and United with company B, how does that work? Maybe two companies both put up a tower in the same airport (competition is good, ya know). And then fight over who gets to land their flight next?
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:51 AM
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Visitors Chainsaw Iconic Joshua Trees in National Park During Gov't Shutdown
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:58 AM
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You know which facility run by the National Parks Service in D.C. is still open and staffed?

The one at Individual-1's hotel.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
Air traffic controllers are not being paid, but are still required to show up to work.
Didn't we fight a war about that?
  #18  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:15 AM
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No taxation without representation you mean? Because taxes are still being withheld from my checks, even though services are suspended. Oh, and the majority of Americans don't want the stupid wall and elected representatives accordingly. Only their will cannot be expressed in Congress because now no votes are allowed in the Senate, not even on a CR that passed unanimously last month. So yeah, no representation.

My thought this morning is that Trump and the GOP expect US to serve Them, when it is supposed to be the other way around.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
Because the government is shut down. Have you not heard this? Even the topic of this thread is called "Trump's shutdown."

Government contractors aren't getting paid. Therefore, if you have a contract with the government to supply, say $50,000/week in air traffic controllers to whatever airport(s), you're not getting that $50k this week. Meaning that either:

1. Your employees go unpaid, or
2. You eat the payroll cost until you get paid

I mean, seriously, Will: How do you not know this?
Hey, back off. He's read Ayn Rand and even a little bit of Milton Friedman too. He, like, knows stuff.
  #20  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Folacin View Post
I assume he is assuming complete privatization of air traffic control. So, I guess, the airlines pay the controllers directly. Not sure how that works - if different companies have contracts in different airports, how do they talk? And if Southwest has a contract with company A, and United with company B, how does that work? Maybe two companies both put up a tower in the same airport (competition is good, ya know). And then fight over who gets to land their flight next?
Assume that he is. This isn't the thread for that, this is the thread to discuss real-world implications of Trump's shutdown, not fantasy island crap found in The Virtue of Selfishness.

ETA: Sorry, Folacin, the attitude above isn't directed at you.

Last edited by JohnT; 01-11-2019 at 10:22 AM.
  #21  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:27 AM
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Trump should be concerned. That will reduce the park's value when he tries to sell it off to developers.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:38 AM
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Why wouldn’t they get paid? Everyone else who supplies a service that satisfies consumers’ desires gets paid.
You do realize that a) what you're proposing for air traffic controllers would mean that the government develop a contracting scope of work; issue a request for proposals; evaluate the proposals; award the contract and monitor the contractors' performance; and all of that would have be done by federal employees; and that b) that process would take many months, if not years, while the problem of air traffic controllers not being paid is an immediate problem; and c) some federal contractors are not being paid for their work during the shutdown, but unlike furloughed federal workers, most of these contractors are not still required to go to work so that your solution would be worse than the current state of affairs because now we have air traffic controllers at work who aren't getting paid, but your way would result in no air traffic controllers actually showing up for work; and that d) even if the job was done by contractors, their work and payment for said work would still be done by federal workers?

So to recap, your solution to an immediate crisis of air traffic controllers not getting paid is to introduce a months long process that has to be carried out by federal workers (which could not be done until the government reopens) that would result in the job function currently being carried out by people not being paid, but at least still showing up for work to not be carried out at all.

Do you ever think before you post?
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:55 AM
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:15 AM
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Miami airport to close terminal as gov shutdown continues
Quote:
Miami International Airport is closing a terminal this weekend because security screeners have been calling in sick at twice the airport’s normal rate as the federal government shutdown stretches toward a fourth week.

Friday marks the first day screeners will miss a paycheck, and airport spokesman Greg Chin said there’s a concern there won’t be enough workers to handle all 11 checkpoints during normal hours over the weekend.

Chin said Terminal G will close at 1 p.m. Saturday, reopen for flights Sunday morning and close again at 1 p.m. that day. The terminal serves United Airlines along with smaller carriers. Its closure means restaurants and shops that depend on departing flights also will close.
Airports are starting to close, y'all.
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:25 AM
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There was an air controller strike during the Reagan administration. I wondered at the time why he didn't use military aircraft controllers.
  #27  
Old 01-11-2019, 11:32 AM
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The National Archives are closed. I'm researching the 1964 Wilderness Act for my MA thesis and need access to those documents. It's a small thing in the grand scheme of things and personally it's an inconvenience to me, but that's a lot of people that aren't working or being paid.

The National Forests are closed as well. That's a huge part of our local economy.
  #28  
Old 01-11-2019, 11:43 AM
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There was an air controller strike during the Reagan administration. I wondered at the time why he didn't use military aircraft controllers.
1. They already have responsibilities; and
2. There are not enough of them.
  #29  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:12 PM
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There was an air controller strike during the Reagan administration. I wondered at the time why he didn't use military aircraft controllers.
According to this Wiki article, he did.

Quote:
They were replaced initially with non-participating controllers, supervisors, staff personnel, some non-rated personnel, and in some cases by controllers transferred temporarily from other facilities. Some military controllers were also used until replacements could be trained.
Bolding mine.

The article goes on to state that it took 10 years before staffing returned to pre-strike levels. Do we really want to go through this crap again?
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:12 PM
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There was an air controller strike during the Reagan administration. I wondered at the time why he didn't use military aircraft controllers.
Most of them are in their early twenties with only a couple of years of training. That's fine for the military but not really good for Atlanta or Chicago.

It can take upwards of year of training for even a good controller to move to a new airport.
  #31  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:13 PM
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Air traffic controllers are not being paid, but are still required to show up to work.
What a coincidence, there seems to be a bug going around. First it got the TSA workers, now the ATCs? Jesus, it seems to be spreading.
  #32  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:18 PM
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Conservativism slavery in a nutshell. Didn't they tell us for 50 years this is the sort of thing which would happen if the Left took over - that the capable would be forced to work, while the "looters" and "moochers" would take the day off? Looks like "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need (maybe)" is conservative policy now.

Quote:
The fairness in all this is beyond ridiculous. Staff and many other employees don’t have to report to work, and all of the essential personnel are required to report for the same pay when this over. 3-4 weeks off for free for furloughed employees and all the essential personnel continue to work everyday for the same pay. This shit is getting old!

Last edited by JohnT; 01-11-2019 at 12:19 PM.
  #33  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:27 PM
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What a coincidence, there seems to be a bug going around. First it got the TSA workers, now the ATCs? Jesus, it seems to be spreading.
Maybe the CDC should look into it. Oh wait...

ETA: Never mind, it turns out the CDC is funded.

Last edited by scr4; 01-11-2019 at 12:29 PM.
  #34  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:39 PM
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There would be a brief disturbance, but the private sector is capable of keeping planes safe in the air. They already do 99.9% of that job as designers, manufacturers and maintenance providers.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 01-11-2019 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:42 PM
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... paid for, and regulated by, the US government.
  #36  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:56 PM
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Miami airport to close terminal as gov shutdown continuesAirports are starting to close, y'all.
And I'm planning on leaving for vacation tomorrow morning. Fuck.
  #37  
Old 01-11-2019, 01:02 PM
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There would be a brief disturbance, but the private sector is capable of keeping planes safe in the air. They already do 99.9% of that job as designers, manufacturers and maintenance providers.
Really?? The designers, manufacturers and maintenance providers are qualified in air-traffic control?!? Who knew...



Any idea of how many mid-air collisions and fatal crashes might happen during this "brief disturbance"? What would, in your humble opinion, be can acceptable amount of fatalities?
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Last edited by CaptMurdock; 01-11-2019 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:03 PM
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It's different, though! It's the Private Sector! And, you know... FREEDOM!
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:54 PM
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It's different, though! It's the Private Sector! And, you know... FREEDOM!
Free-DUMB! It is our worship word! You will not speak it!
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:56 PM
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I'd sure hate to get one of these: Federal workers get $0 pay stubs as shutdown drags on.
  #41  
Old 01-11-2019, 02:17 PM
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I just sent a message to Sen. Warner, reminding him that revenue from my agency enabled the Clinton administration to balance the budget. We're too important to furlough or close.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:33 PM
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There would be a brief disturbance, but the private sector is capable of keeping planes safe in the air. They already do 99.9% of that job as designers, manufacturers and maintenance providers.
Ah, the wonderful world of Libertaria where people magically spring up and do all what governments elsewhere do for a fraction of the cost. There are good reasons why no libertarian governments have ever existed.
  #43  
Old 01-11-2019, 02:51 PM
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Ah, the wonderful world of Libertaria where people magically spring up and do all what governments elsewhere do for a fraction of the cost. There are good reasons why no libertarian governments have ever existed.
As a former Libertarian raised by Libertarians and sent to a Libertarian college where I pledged a Libertarian Fraternity full of, you guessed it, Libertarians...

A Libertarian government would never work.

Seriously, the president of my college envisioned a utopia where someone breaks into your house and you have a choice of private sector police forces to call.

"I think I'll call Citizen-Guard™, they have a special this week...and I have a coupon!"
  #44  
Old 01-11-2019, 02:57 PM
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As a former Libertarian raised by Libertarians and sent to a Libertarian college where I pledged a Libertarian Fraternity full of, you guessed it, Libertarians...

A Libertarian government would never work.

Seriously, the president of my college envisioned a utopia where someone breaks into your house and you have a choice of private sector police forces to call.

"I think I'll call Citizen-Guard™, they have a special this week...and I have a coupon!"
"Thank you for calling Citizen-Guard™. Your phone call is very important to us. All of our operators are busy helping other customers" *distorted hold music*
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:10 PM
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The Office of Management & Budget, a White House entity, is preparing for a shutdown which lasts to the end of February.
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:11 PM
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:41 PM
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I wonder if this will affect the subsidies for the free cell phone service that people on government assistance are able to get.
  #48  
Old 01-11-2019, 03:53 PM
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The Latest: Trump not ready to declare emergency over wall

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...H5J?li=BBnb7Kz

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President Donald Trump says it would be easy for him just to declare a national emergency and find federal money to build a barrier along the southern border, but he's not going to be so quick to do that because he thinks lawmakers can do it.
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  #49  
Old 01-11-2019, 03:55 PM
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Well, yeah, that would end the shutdown and stop hurting people. If he's not hurting people, then how is he showing his base how big a man he is?

Last edited by JohnT; 01-11-2019 at 03:55 PM.
  #50  
Old 01-11-2019, 04:00 PM
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I wonder if this will affect the subsidies for the free cell phone service that people on government assistance are able to get.
This page says the Lifeline program funding will continue.
Reply

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