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Old 03-11-2019, 11:14 AM
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Captain Marvel "Seen It" Spoiler Thread


I don't have much immediately to add from the other thread but now we don't need spoiler tags. Spoil away!
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:38 AM
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I didn't like the end. She was ridiculously overpowered once she blew off the inhibitor and I never felt a bit of tension beyond that point.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:01 PM
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Copied over from the other Thread:

So far, no one's mentioned the Marvel Studios logo title card opening. Beautiful. First tear shed for me for this film, less that two seconds into the film.

And my favorite line:
As Fury gets his eye scratched by Goose:
Quote:
"MOTHER FLERKEN!!!"
Further thoughts on Fury:
13 years after the events of this film, he is the Director of SHIELD. I feel like he should have been higher up than he seemed to be here. He seems like an experienced yet still low level agent. He doesn't seem like someone who is on track to be Director of the organization a mere 13 years later.

Dr. Wendy Lawson either stole the Tesseract from SHIELD or she was working with SHEILD (in cooperation with the USAF and NASA as noted at the Pegasus facility). That she was working with SHIELD makes more sense. Given that the Tesseract then went missing after her death, then I'd think her name should be known throughout the organization since any lead on Wendy Lawson would be a lead on the lost Tesseract.

So, in addition to being higher up, I would have wanted Fury to know who she was (after all, he did know what Pegasus was) even if he didn't know the specifics of what she was working on (he was 6 years lower in rank and experience at the time) and for the purposes of the plot of this movie it would have been acceptable for him to not know who the other pilot was, but I still think he should have recognized her name.

On Brie Larson...
She was awesome!
I think she beautifully conveyed the constant of personality and who a person is at their core despite memory loss. She wasn't a blank slate having lost her memory, and she wasn't a personality fashioned by her Kree Starforce superiors trying to overwrite her memory loss. She was every bit Carol Danvers throughout the film- just with memory loss. Not an easy feat to make that believable. She did so much with just the most minor of facial expressions. For me, her performance filled every gap left by the script.

Oh, and Stan Lee
Practicing his lines from the Mallrats script!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:06 PM
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I enjoyed the movie, I liked it better than the Oscar-nominated Black Panther. The reveal of the Skrulls not really being villains was a major twist from the comics, so I enjoyed not seeing that coming. I liked how they changed the Mar-Vell character. The structure of the movie worked for me very much. I liked Monica Rambeau being introduced as having a connection with the rest of the Captain Marvel legacy.

I wasn't crazy about how it was used as an "explain everything" movie. There really wasn't a need to explain Nick Fury's missing eye on-screen, an injury to a guy whose job involves putting himself in danger pretty much explains itself. We didn't need the name "Avengers" to have a specific inspiration, it makes enough sense on its own. The movie "Finding Dory" rubbed me wrong in a similar way.

The use of the tesseract here is somewhat puzzling. I thought the tesseract was retrieved from the Red Skull's ship at the same time as frozen Captain America was. I'd need to re-watch Captain America: the First Avenger, Avengers and/or Thor to hear if that was ever stated explicitly, and I'm not in the mood to, so I'll assume it doesn't violate known MCU continuity. But I'd have expected Cap to be discovered sooner if someone had found the Red Skull's ship and retrieved the tesseract from it.

I'm also not sure why Carol felt she could trust that the Skrulls weren't deceiving her (and, previously, Mar-Vell/Lawson, whose word she was trusting about the Skrulls being unjustly persecuted). Heck, Mar-Vell/Lawson could have ultimately been a Skrull herself rather than a Kree turncoat. (Unless the blue blood gave it away...did we see what color the Skrulls bleed? Still, she could have been a Kree who was taken in by their sob story, no proof that they really were victims rather than infiltrating aggressors.)
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:18 PM
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It was not bad but the Marvel formula is getting kind of stale. It's not bad but it just feels like you've seen the movie already.

I felt the beginning took a while to get off the ground. It was simultaneously slow and confusing. But it gets better as it went along. I liked the twist with the Skrulls.

I was positive while in the theater that the time line with the tesseract was messed up by this movie but after some googling I guess I just misremembered some things.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:23 PM
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The use of the tesseract here is somewhat puzzling. I thought the tesseract was retrieved from the Red Skull's ship at the same time as frozen Captain America was.
The tesseract wasn't in Red Skull's ship - it fell out of the plane when it disintegrated Red Skull, presumably a couple hundred miles before Cap crashed. At the end of the movie, we see Howard Stark finding the tesseract on the ocean floor. He's not any older than he was in the rest of the movie, so this was relatively soon after the crash.

Also, it's Stark who found the tesseract - so it wasn't necessarily in SHIELD's hands between First Avenger and Captain Marvel, although I might be forgetting something that contradicts this.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:31 PM
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I thought the tesseract was retrieved from the Red Skull's ship at the same time as frozen Captain America was.
<snip>
But I'd have expected Cap to be discovered sooner if someone had found the Red Skull's ship and retrieved the tesseract from it.
The Tesseract fell from Red Skull’s ship while they were still in the air (as Red Skull tried to catch it then got himself blasted into space). The Tesseract fell from the plane into the ocean before Steve crashed the plane.

Howard Stark found the Tesseract in the ocean during one of the earliest unsuccessful searches for Steve Rogers’ crash site. SHIELD has had the Tesseract since it was founded as an offshoot of the SSR of the 1940s.

Steve’s frozen body was found just about a year before the events of the first Avengers film. In that film, Fury tells Steve “Howard Stark fished it (the Tesseract) out of the ocean when he was trying to find you.”
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:34 PM
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The tesseract wasn't in Red Skull's ship - it fell out of the plane when it disintegrated Red Skull, presumably a couple hundred miles before Cap crashed. At the end of the movie, we see Howard Stark finding the tesseract on the ocean floor. He's not any older than he was in the rest of the movie, so this was relatively soon after the crash.
Also, it's Stark who found the tesseract - so it wasn't necessarily in SHIELD's hands between First Avenger and Captain Marvel, although I might be forgetting something that contradicts this.
They were actually searching for Cap, and the trail they were following ended at the tesseract - presumably Stark built a tesseract energy detector when he had access to the tesseract powered Hydra weapons. So it's probably weeks or at most months after Cap crashed.

Even if SHIELD did have the tesseract it between 1945 & 1995, remember that SHIELD had been completely subverted by Hydra almost since their founding, so it's not impossible they'd already squirreled it away and shopped it around to people who thought they could figure out how to use it.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:34 PM
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Liked it a lot. Not quite top tier for the MCU, IMO, but close. Compared to the other solo-hero first movies, I think it's almost as good as BP and IM, as good as CA:TFA, and better than AM, DS, Thor, and TIH.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:36 PM
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I didn't like the end. She was ridiculously overpowered once she blew off the inhibitor and I never felt a bit of tension beyond that point.
Which, if I read the set-up correctly, makes a fairly even fight with Ronan the Accuser if they do a second film. Plus it kept this film's bad guys credible until the very end.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:36 PM
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So, who's going to watch all the older movies and try to spot the cat?

Anyway, I thought this was a by-the-numbers origin movie, basically a combination of Wonder Woman and Justice League. We were all just waiting for the real Captain Marvel to turn up. I would have liked to see her battle an Apocalypse-level villain. Much of the hype was around the hero being a woman, but you could have had a man there and it would have made no difference. But it was a pleasant way to spend an afternoon.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:39 PM
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Which, if I read the set-up correctly, makes a fairly even fight with Ronan the Accuser if they do a second film. Plus it kept this film's bad guys credible until the very end.
I doubt the sequel will focus on Ronan... we already know what happens to him (he goes on his own and then, briefly, allies with Thanos). Further, it seems clear to me that without the Power Stone, Captain Marvel is way, way above his league. Before he got the Power Stone, he just seemed to be tough enough to beat up Drax. That's not exactly the peak of MCU power levels.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-11-2019 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:42 PM
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Dr. Wendy Lawson either stole the Tesseract from SHIELD or she was working with SHEILD (in cooperation with the USAF and NASA as noted at the Pegasus facility). That she was working with SHIELD makes more sense. Given that the Tesseract then went missing after her death, then I'd think her name should be known throughout the organization since any lead on Wendy Lawson would be a lead on the lost Tesseract.
SHIELD, like every other intelligence agency, will be super-compartmentalized. The only people who might even suspect Wendy Lawson (and/or Carol Danvers) weren't killed in that crash would be those directly working on the project. Others might simply know that there is a Project Pegasus, but no details. I think Fury was the latter. And while I could certainly see a scene showing it ending up on the cutting room floor, most likely Fury got up to speed on Pegasus after connecting it to the Skrull in his car (and his boss had reason to want Fury following up on the details).
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:46 PM
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I doubt the sequel will focus on Ronan... we already know what happens to him (he goes on his own and then, briefly, allies with Thanos). Further, it seems clear to me that without the Power Stone, Captain Marvel is way, way above his league. Before he got the Power Stone, he just seemed to be tough enough to beat up Drax. That's not exactly the peak of MCU power levels.
Ronan snapped the Chitauri's neck with a gesture, and he didn't just beat up Drax, he humiliated Drax without even trying. In the comics, Ronan the Accuser is a player in the same league. But it does bring in the problem that prequels have to be careful not to alter established MCU canon too much, or it breaks the illusion. So maybe not.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:47 PM
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Miller et al:

Quote:
The tesseract wasn't in Red Skull's ship - it fell out of the plane when it disintegrated Red Skull, presumably a couple hundred miles before Cap crashed.
See, that's why I needed to re-watch it. I forget details like that, I suppose.

Since Carol is powered by an Infinity Stone, it would make sense that she would be a key in a fight against Thanos.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:52 PM
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Which, if I read the set-up correctly, makes a fairly even fight with Ronan the Accuser if they do a second film. Plus it kept this film's bad guys credible until the very end.
Ronan's dead. I doubt they'll do a second flashback movie.
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Old 03-11-2019, 01:01 PM
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you could have had a man there and it would have made no difference.
Although it is certainly possible for gaslighting to be done to a man, it’s a theme that women often apply to their own experiences. Anyone who’s read more than a handful of #MeToo era magazine articles and essays has seen the term a lot over the past couple years. As such, I think women in the audience take a lot more away from the gaslighting done to Carol by the Kree Starforce, planting seeds of doubt about herself/setting the terms by which she must prove herself.
And, sure, the “keep your emotions in check” thing has always been a trope of the warrior training tradition but I think it’s got extra meaning in this film.

The narrative doesn’t do somersaults to imply that all of her experiences are “women’s experiences”, there’s plenty that any man could relate to, but I do think there is plenty in the film that reflects a woman’s point of view and particular struggles that women bond over.
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Old 03-11-2019, 01:37 PM
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Although it is certainly possible for gaslighting to be done to a man
I'm sorry but I don't follow you. What's gaslighting got to do with it? The warrior who doesn't know / has been robbed of their past is a cliche with plenty of precedent - Jason Bourne, anyone?
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Old 03-11-2019, 01:48 PM
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Ronan's dead. I doubt they'll do a second flashback movie.
I hope not (2nd flashback movie). I could see them somehow, someway writing Ronan back in when they fix The Snap(TM) but only if Lee Pace wants to spend more than the day or two that it took for his CM scenes playing the roll again.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:49 PM
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I'm sorry but I don't follow you. What's gaslighting got to do with it? The warrior who doesn't know / has been robbed of their past is a cliche with plenty of precedent - Jason Bourne, anyone?
I'm not bienville, but,

I think there's a particular spin on it here that you don't find in the Bourne movies, for example. The Kree were playing heavily on Carol Danver's supposed weakness. Their line was that she was nothing without them, that it was only with their help that she was able to be strong, etc. At the climax of the movie her revelation is that she, as her friend had told her earlier, had been strong from the start. That her strength was evident not in how many times she failed, but in how consistently she pulled herself back up and tried again.

This was described as a uniquely human strength, and it's a common enough them in Marvel movies and elsewhere to say that there's something just gosh darn special about those humans. But I don't think that it's a stretch to say that this movie presented the conflict from a uniquely feminine perspective. This is epitomized in the non-fight at the end, where Danvers flatly states that she has nothing to prove to Yon-Rogg. He, the male, doesn't get to set the rules for her; she knows who and what she is.

Would the movie have worked with a male protagonist? I'd say that it could be made to work. But I think it would be a different movie thematically.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:57 PM
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Thanks, ebb!
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:36 PM
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I think there's a particular spin on it here that you don't find in the Bourne movies, for example. The Kree were playing heavily on Carol Danver's supposed weakness.
But that's not gaslighting. That said the Kree's psychological bullying and conditioning is a cliche of many movies with male protagonists too.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:45 PM
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But that's not gaslighting.
Your link disagrees with you.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:53 PM
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Your link disagrees with you.
The Kree are not trying to drive her mad.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:00 PM
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Did you read past the first paragraph?
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:04 PM
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The best part of that link:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVTropes
Not to be confused with Farts on Fire
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:23 PM
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Did you read past the first paragraph?
Yes I did. The Kree want to control her, not make her doubt reality.
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:33 PM
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Anyone else notice how Quartz posts like he’s trying to gaslight us?
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:38 PM
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I thought it was a great movie, although among the MCU movies I think Black Panther is better. I had a Mandela effect moment when I'm Just A Girl came on. Since the movie is set in 1995 and I remember the song as having come out in 1999 or 2000 I thought they had made a mistake. It turns out my memory was faulty and the song is from 1995 .
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:46 PM
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Holy shit.

Fury in Captain Marvel: I can't eat toast when it's cut in triangles.

Fury in Age of Ultron: Makes sandwich and cuts it in triangles.
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:54 PM
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Holy shit.

Fury in Captain Marvel: I can't eat toast when it's cut in triangles.

Fury in Age of Ultron: Makes sandwich and cuts it in triangles.
Fury in Age of Ultron is a Skrull!
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:56 PM
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Thoroughly enjoyed it, though it was a bit ... average. But average for a Marvel superhero movie is still very good. For a movie where the justification seems very much to be "We need an origin movie for Captain Marvel before the second Infinity War movie" the writing was decent, a bunch of stuff I didn't see coming. The fakeout eye injury was a nice move, made the real one more of a surprise.
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:59 PM
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Fury in Age of Ultron is a Skrull!
I'm just sayin', could be true! Maybe he's been a skrull for a while. Who would know? And it would still allow for the setup for Secret Invasion.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:05 PM
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I'm just sayin', could be true! Maybe he's been a skrull for a while. Who would know? And it would still allow for the setup for Secret Invasion.
That would be the most subtle callback ever. If you're right, I'll raise a glass to you.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:28 PM
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In Age of Ultron, was the sandwich toasted?
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:55 PM
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I just checked. Holy shit, it was toasted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4JAaX46PKo

Did I find something? I think I found something.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:20 PM
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I just checked. Holy shit, it was toasted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4JAaX46PKo

Did I find something? I think I found something.
Did you mean this scene?
It's hard for me to tell how he's cutting his sandwich...
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:28 PM
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I don't think the toast in the first scene was what Fury made his sandwich out of. It doesn't look toasted to me. I'm not 100% sure he cuts it diagonally - the shape of the bread and the part that's been eaten makes it difficult to tell for sure. It's still a pretty good catch.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:33 AM
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Looks to me like he broke the sandwich cross-wise, not diagonally. If he's a Skrull, I don't think that's an indicator.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:53 AM
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Looks to me like he broke the sandwich cross-wise, not diagonally. If he's a Skrull, I don't think that's an indicator.
and we're just supposed to take your word on that?
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:58 AM
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and we're just supposed to take your word on that?
Uuuuuhhhh... you're the one named simster. Project much?
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:21 AM
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I could have sworn the triangle sandwich joke came up somewhere else, the gag being he is afraid he would poke himself in his one good eye (but this movie showing he had the same hangup before that).

I liked the subtle references like how one of the Kree troops here ended up working for Ronan in GotG.

On the other hand all the, "Get it, this is the 90s! GET IT!" references were kind of lame.
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:39 AM
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Uuuuuhhhh... you're the one named simster. Project much?
Why yes, I did run the projectors back in high school - fond memories of that.
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:42 AM
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I was disappointed in Lee Pace's performance as Ronan. He really seemed to be phoning it in.

Each time he was on screen I thought to myself, "Gee, lame that they couldn't get the same actor to reprise the role" then I saw his name in the credits and was surprised to learn that they did get the same actor to reprise the role!

I don't know if it was the directors' choice to mellow out the portrayal of the character, or if it was the actor's choice... maybe they thought "this is 20 years earlier, he's younger and he's not a renegade separatist yet..." but, whatever their reasoning, I didn't like it. I would have at least wanted him to have the same booming voice- this was more like Ronan Farrow.
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:59 AM
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Yes I did. The Kree want to control her, not make her doubt reality.
The reality is that she is extremely powerful and perfectly capable of controlling her powers.

Every interaction the Kree have with her is designed to make her doubt this reality and to present themselves as the arbiters of what is true and what is not.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:19 AM
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Each time he was on screen I thought to myself, "Gee, lame that they couldn't get the same actor to reprise the role" then I saw his name in the credits and was surprised to learn that they did get the same actor to reprise the role!
Glad I wasn't the only one who thought the same. When he was on that ship with the other Kree, I wasn't even sure which one was supposed to be Ronan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D_Odds View Post
Ronan snapped the Chitauri's neck with a gesture
The Chitauri weren't in GotG. I don't remember anything like that.

Regarding the "Fury is a Skrull": There's still one Skrull out there, right? Four landed on Earth. Talos left in the end, Science Guy was killed by Jude Law, fake Coulsen died in the car crash. Old lady on the subway got away in the end. He's probably still on Earth, and has no idea what all went down. If they ever want to recon any scene to "That guy was a Skrull," they have an opening now.
  #47  
Old 03-12-2019, 11:19 AM
bienville is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanislaus View Post
The reality is that she is extremely powerful and perfectly capable of controlling her powers.

Every interaction the Kree have with her is designed to make her doubt this reality and to present themselves as the arbiters of what is true and what is not.
Yep, that's the meat and potatoes of it- smothered in a thick gravy of "We made you what you are and you would be nothing without us!"
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  #48  
Old 03-12-2019, 11:26 AM
bienville is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enalzi View Post
The Chitauri weren't in GotG. I don't remember anything like that.
I don't know what species he was, it wasn't a Chitauri it was that five fingered weirdo guy who you're supposed to address instead of addressing Thanos directly (the intermediary that Loki speaks to throughout the first Avengers movie). Ronan got sick of hearing from the lackey and wanted Thanos' full attention so Ronan snapped the lackey's neck.

He didn't make physical contact but his gesture was a gesture with his weapon (the long handled hammer kinda thing that he later uses to hold the Power Stone). I was under the impression that his weapon had some kind of power that allowed it to be effective with just a gesture instead of needing actual physical contact.
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  #49  
Old 03-12-2019, 11:38 AM
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Anyway, I really liked this. I've heard it called a "Phase One movie set during Phase Three" and I think that fits. Compared to most of the "origin" movies, I think this is one of the best. I would put it just below Iron Man, just above Captain America.

Things I liked:
When Carol first unlocks her powers, she fires a blast so big it accidentally knocks her backwards. Which is a callback to when Stark first tries to use a repulsor blast, and it knocks him backwards.

Annette Bening did a great job as both Mar vell and the Supreme Intelligence. She was so nice but had a great sinister quality. Hope she's back for the sequel.

The memory sequence was really well done. I loved Talos comments over it. I think that scene will be even better on a rewatch.

Speaking of which, Talos stole the show. Ben Mendelsohn always plays generic bad guys, so I really wasn't expecting the twist with him.

Didn't like:
The music was all over the place. They were definitely trying to go for the GotG route, but it seemed out of place some times. Although the "Just A Girl" fight was great.

The fight scenes after she got her fulls powers were weak. When she was flying through the air destroying ships you couldn't really tell what was going on because it was so zoomed in on her.
  #50  
Old 03-12-2019, 11:48 AM
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I would say the patriarchy experience theme is triggered almost immediately with Jude Law's lecture about "controlling your emotions." And then it moves on to "we gave you your power and we can take it away." And then it broadens out into one big gaslight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bienville View Post
Anyone else notice how Quartz posts like he’s trying to gaslight us?
This is clear in some other threads.
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