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Old 03-11-2019, 12:59 PM
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"Bully List" at High School


Media story. https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...nline-list/amp

There is also a reddit thread in r /vancouver, plus many more articles if you Google "Hamber List"

This list was created as a Google Doc then airdropped around the school.


I mean first of all it is horrible this is happening. It is even worse that my son in Grade 9 has made the list.. although so far down it is probably as a "Let's reach 100" name filler. He also identifies as straight although that is actually beside the point. He has not seen the list.

I'm more scared for his safety than he is. He has been raised in my pro social justice, ally to all household. His step brother who lives on the other side of the country is transgender. I grew up in the 1980s and saw violence against anyone different.

The school is taking action, but my son found out second hand that he is on the list. I feel that some how students on the list and their families should have been notified. I know there are good and bad everywhere, but I am more afriad of the lone wolf whi decides


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Old 03-11-2019, 01:05 PM
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Argh. Posted too soon from my phone and can't( or don't know how to) edit.

So Im afraid some lone wolf kid will see this as a " taeget list" for homophobic violence. My son does not want to respond to "allegations on a list he hasn't seen" and I applaud his maturity. But I'm scared, I need to talk about it semi-anonymously, ans i'd likento hear what Dopers have to say.

P.S. We are in Canada, Vancouver BC.

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Old 03-11-2019, 01:49 PM
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Like the bible says: We will always have assholes among us.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:04 PM
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So the article is in error when it says 100 names of Grade 12 students were published -- since your son is in Grade 9 and was on it? If only those in Grade 12 were listed, that could be at least 25-30% of the class being painted which would seem over the top.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:23 PM
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The school is about 1700 students... I do not know the breakdown of students/grade but 5 grades means roughly 350 students / grade.


Not all are Grade 12. Most but not all. And some are claiming the 3 letter f word was meant more as jerks/loosers than "homosexuals".

My son was low enough on the list that it seems like it was an added name to round out a list of 100. Apparently there were also people listed with discriptions like "fat girl who sits in the senior hallway" on the list.





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Old 03-11-2019, 02:29 PM
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Like the bible says: We will always have assholes among us.
Yes indeed we will. I'm just worried these assholes may have created safety issues for my son. Who isn't 17 or 18 but just barely 15, 5ft 8 and 105 lbs. And trusting and caring and has an open heart and for all his intelligence and is a bit naive.

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Old 03-11-2019, 02:38 PM
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I keep coming back to this thread and getting disgusted as I read the OP and the article. This is definitely an offense that could result in violence and great harm. I hope that the law in Canadia allows the parents of those kids on the list to sue, and I mean sue the parents of those assholes for their actions. Having to pay off 100 times might get them to rethink how they raised such monsters in the first place.

Sorry, maybe out of proportion rant but I get sick of hearing about shit like this.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:48 PM
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It's probably a good sign your son is less worried than you are. Hopefully it means he wasn't added based on any interaction a nefarious older student had with him and maybe he got picked out based on a photo. If he is on social media or an internet presence where he might be identified, you'll want to put the kibosh on that for the time being.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:48 PM
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I know you're really worried, but I'm not sure what you're asking of us. How much danger your son is in? No one can know. Maybe you could get together a group of parents whose kids are on the list? It looks like the school has a Facebook page so that shouldn't be too hard. You're probably doing this already, but find out what the school plans going forward. It sounds like they need to talk about bullying every single day and make sure kids know the specific punishment they'll receive if caught bullying.

I really don't know what to say! But I'm sorry you have to worry about this. It may not be a bad thing that your kid isn't. He sounds like a good guy, btw.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:23 PM
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I know you're really worried, but I'm not sure what you're asking of us. How much danger your son is in? No one can know. Maybe you could get together a group of parents whose kids are on the list? It looks like the school has a Facebook page so that shouldn't be too hard. You're probably doing this already, but find out what the school plans going forward. It sounds like they need to talk about bullying every single day and make sure kids know the specific punishment they'll receive if caught bullying.

I really don't know what to say! But I'm sorry you have to worry about this. It may not be a bad thing that your kid isn't. He sounds like a good guy, btw.
I guess a) what is appropriate to ask. Should the school have notified me/my son? b) I'm venting because I need to deal with my own panic.

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Old 03-11-2019, 03:33 PM
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I keep coming back to this thread and getting disgusted as I read the OP and the article. This is definitely an offense that could result in violence and great harm. I hope that the law in Canadia allows the parents of those kids on the list to sue, and I mean sue the parents of those assholes for their actions. Having to pay off 100 times might get them to rethink how they raised such monsters in the first place.

Sorry, maybe out of proportion rant but I get sick of hearing about shit like this.
Thanks. I'm glad someone else is feeling this. Personally I feel like if these kids make their year they should be banned from all school sponsored grad activities. No prom and no recieving diploma in a ceremony.

There is a rumour that another perpetrator is at large. I would love the school to suspend all grade 12 events unless that one comes forward.



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Old 03-11-2019, 04:47 PM
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... I hope that the law in Canadia allows the parents of those kids on the list to sue, and I mean sue the parents of those assholes for their actions. ...
We're not a litigious society here in Canada. Suing would be superfluous.

But hey OP, you guys are handling it well. I thought society, well especially young people, were beyond this nonsense by now.

Take care.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:44 PM
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Why would you expect violence? Presumably, there are kids who are openly gay at this school. Have they been victim of violence so far? Why would being on a list change anything?
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:09 PM
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I keep coming back to this thread and getting disgusted as I read the OP and the article. This is definitely an offense that could result in violence and great harm. I hope that the law in Canadia allows the parents of those kids on the list to sue, and I mean sue the parents of those assholes for their actions. Having to pay off 100 times might get them to rethink how they raised such monsters in the first place.
I see how it could be a disciplinary issue in a school, but on what basis would you sue someone basically simply for saying that you're gay?

And the assumption that parents are necessarily morally at fault for the behavior of their almost adult children (they might be legally responsible, but that's a different issue) , and that's it's necessarily the result of a flawed education is unwarranted. I think that parents of children who don't run into troubles should more often thank their lucky star and less often pat themselves on the back for being such excellent parents. Plenty of perfectly fine people who did the best they could have troubled children. Some perfectly fine people even raised serial killers, in fact.

Finally, the kids who made the list aren't "monsters", they're kids. Getting involved in stupid shit and making stupid decisions is typical of teenagers. "Monster" should be reserved for something a bit more grievous than preparing a "gay list".
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:17 PM
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So--to sum it up, a small number of high school kids made a private list of names or "social media handles" that they didn't like, someone else found it by snooping on one of their phones and spread it around, and now it is a "bully list", possibly causing violence. And the futures of those few students who made a private list of people that they don't like should be destroyed.


No, not seeing any hyperbolic reactions there.
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:46 PM
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There is a rumour that another perpetrator is at large. I would love the school to suspend all grade 12 events unless that one comes forward.

I'm sorry this is happening and appreciate it's stressful, but is it ever just to punish the many for the sins of one person?

Where it's not even known if that one person has done anything wrong?

What message would that send to your son?
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:54 PM
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Why would you expect violence? Presumably, there are kids who are openly gay at this school. Have they been victim of violence so far? Why would being on a list change anything?
That was my thought. My daughter is in 10th grade at a school in West Virginia, not exactly the most progressive state on this issue. But she tells me that kids that are gay are open and discuss it all the time and nobody her age even gives it a second thought.

It is not at all like when I was in high school twenty five years ago.

So, not to diminish the fear of the OP, but I simply do not understand it. So there is a list and on it is Timmy Smith, 12th Grade, Ms. Robinson's English class and he is (cue scary music) GAY!

Don't the other students know about this already? Who gives a shit?
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:56 PM
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We had stuff similar to this happen when I was in school. There were slut lists, drug party attendees and creep lists, you name it. The difference was they were actually written in notebooks and passed around, all on the DL. I saw a few. People would get the notebook and write in their thoughts and musings on named persons. It all so stupid and chidish. I had older sibs who looked after me so I never worried about them.
These days with social media in every kids hands things escalate so quickly. OP, I would be at the school tomarrow and ask just what the admin.was planning to do. I wouldn't leave my child's safety in the hands of any school who would not at least listen to my concerns. You can't combat what you don't know for sure. You don't have all the facts. Go there and get them, soon. Then you can gather the tools you need to keep your son safe. You're the momma-bear, growl loudly.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:02 PM
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No, not seeing any hyperbolic reactions there.
Tell me you would be so serene if it was your child so named. Homophobia and violence against the LGBTQ community is still very much a possibility. If you don't think its a problem then congratulations, it isn't a problem for you. But not everyone is so fortunate.

Yes, times have changed in the 30 plus years since I was in high school, and yes some kids are openly gay but there are kids on that list that may be closeted for a variety of reasons. Maybe their parents will react badly. The school has kids from a variety of cultures, some that do promote "honour killing" if someone "disgraces" the family for promiscuity, homosexuality, dating outside the culture and other reasons.


A large percentage of the kids are amazing accepting kids. The Gay- Straight Alliance hung the hallways with pride flags and positive messages. But harm was done. And it lives forever on the internet somewhere.

I don't want to sue the parents. But I want apologies to be made.
Individually. I want those kids to look each and everyone affected by the list in the eyes and say they are sorry.

Also, some people on the list do not have last names or full names included. Some kids have very common names, particularly in the Chinese and the South Asian i.e Punjabi community when many people have the last names Kaur or Singh. Some have fairly unusual first names only on the list. If the list said only Darren and there were 3 Darrens in the whole school and Darren was on the list how comfortable would you feel?





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Old 03-11-2019, 08:04 PM
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We had stuff similar to this happen when I was in school. There were slut lists, drug party attendees and creep lists, you name it.

Yes, exactly--this is the profoundly mundane type of "behind their backs" (cough, cough) jerkish gossip that has existed forever. There has likely been something similar in every school dating back to when the list was pressed with a reed into a clay tablet.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:12 PM
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Tell me you would be so serene if it was your child so named. Homophobia and violence against the LGBTQ community is still very much a possibility.

You keep thinking that it is a list of the people that they think are homosexuals, but "gay" and "fag" are not necessarily interchangeable. And even if they were the same, I think people have the fundamental right to say jerkish things about other people in private conversations. (Again, they didn't spread the list around, someone snagged it off of one of their phones and passed it around.) Like it or not, people have the right to not like your son.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:39 PM
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Just because people making a list mean jerk or loser when they use a homosexual slur it doesn't mean someone else will not take ir to mean gay.

Neither my son nor I care if people don't like him. We do care that a list was curculated and labelled and now some people are harmed bu this list. My own kid doesn't care if people think he's gay. He is secure on himself.

I am afraid for him and other kids on the list. Maybe violence, maybe mocking, maybe consequences at home. You cannot possibly know what may happen ro people on that list.

Its awful to make a list of people they hate anyway. Kids do stupid things yeah yeah..it is still bullying But to label it with a term that often means "homosexual" adds a new dimension to this list.

Being called a F- - is very different than being called uncool.





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Old 03-11-2019, 09:12 PM
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Of course your kid cares if people like him or not. He wouldn't be a teen if he didn't. I don't think that's what's disturbing you about this. What are your real concerns? Safety? Keep him home a few days, til things calm down. The fact he has been lumped in with kids who are at risk because of their sexuality? Ask him pointed questions in an understanding and accepting way, and listen to his answers without judgement. Hard to do? Yes, but you kinda need to know. Are you angry because school is not letting you know if his name is on the list? Like you said, his name may not be distinguishable from many others with similar/like names. Maybe they don't know it's your son, call them and tell them you suspect your sons name is on the list. Go from there. You have to do the groundwork to get the result.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:38 PM
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How stupid do you think people are? Two or three people make a list calling people gay and suddenly everyone (including their parents) is going to take the list for the gospel truth and break out the pitchforks and torches? Good thing those three teenagers didn't make a list of people that they thought were Crab People--there would be a run on drawn butter and bibs!
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:33 AM
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Being called a F- - is very different than being called uncool.
Circulating a list of 100 f-gs is also a lot different than making a list of 5 or 10 f-gs in a school. In the context of the former it's harder to take it seriously as an epithet targeting a specific type. It seems in general the kids understand this better than some parents.
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:25 AM
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Yes, times have changed in the 30 plus years since I was in high school, and yes some kids are openly gay but there are kids on that list that may be closeted for a variety of reasons. Maybe their parents will react badly. The school has kids from a variety of cultures, some that do promote "honour killing" if someone "disgraces" the family for promiscuity, homosexuality, dating outside the culture and other reasons.
Circulating gossip and rumors can eventually lead to a child killed or shunned by their family. That's why it's important to deal with risk in a rational data driven manner, collect facts and refrain from fueling hysteria.
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:23 AM
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Circulating a list of 100 f-gs is also a lot different than making a list of 5 or 10 f-gs in a school.
Apparently, the list wasn't circulating.
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:39 AM
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There is a rumour that another perpetrator is at large. I would love the school to suspend all grade 12 events unless that one comes forward.
What if the rumor is false?
Quote:
...there are kids on that list that may be closeted for a variety of reasons. Maybe their parents will react badly. The school has kids from a variety of cultures, some that do promote "honour killing" if someone "disgraces" the family for promiscuity, homosexuality, dating outside the culture and other reasons.
Quote:
I feel that some how students on the list and their families should have been notified.
Do you see any problem with these two statements?

Regards,
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:01 PM
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Some people here are being pretty cavalier, but bullying's a serious issue. There were a hundred kids on that list. A hundred potential victims for bullies. It doesn't matter what the list is about or if kids are gay or not. They've been singled out. Bullying is a serious problem with sometimes dire consequences for the bullied. The OP has every right to be upset and to want some kind of action on the school's part.

Quote:
Individuals in this study who reported cyber bullying were 11.5 times more likely to have suicidal ideation documented on presentation, while individuals reporting verbal bullying were 8.4 times more likely.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5510935/

There are a lot more related studies.
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:23 PM
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Circulating a list of 100 f-gs is also a lot different than making a list of 5 or 10 f-gs in a school. In the context of the former it's harder to take it seriously as an epithet targeting a specific type. It seems in general the kids understand this better than some parents.
This - and I just thought of something I haven't seen yet.

What if someone on the list had a sibling or parent who found out who made the list, and went after THEM in some very bad ways?
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:25 PM
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Some people here are being pretty cavalier, but bullying's a serious issue.

Except that was a private list between the three people who created it until a 4th person got one of the three's phones, found the document, and passed it around. The list creators were not bullying. Demanding that private speech be policed and punished is both draconian and Orwellian.

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Old 03-12-2019, 08:46 PM
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Tell me you would be so serene if it was your child so named.
Not even a little. It's 2019, the bullies are the ones with the bullseye on their back. they've geocached their own stupidity.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:59 PM
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Except that was a private list between the three people who created it until a 4th person got one of the three's phones, found the document, and passed it around. The list creators were not bullying. Demanding that private speech be policed and punished is both draconian and Orwellian.
Well, first, these are minor children, so their free speech rights are curtailed somewhat, but I agree with you and I am not sure if this is even speech; it is more of a private thought.

Your point is well taken though. What if a high school kid made a list entitled "Girls I Want to Bang Before Graduation" and kept it in his phone? I can't imagine how anyone would think that is something to be disciplined by the school if he just kept it to himself. I mean, he can think it; why can't he make a list?

Now, if he spread the list around school, I could see there being a punishment, but as you say, these three didn't do anything like this. The fourth kid is the one who sent this list out to everyone.

And I still say that the prevailing attitude today in school is not at all like it was when I was in school. Sadly, back then, the kids on this list would have been targeted for bullying and probably some violence. Today? Kids today have grown up with gay as no different than hetero. Kids today look at intolerance towards gays like we looked at our grandparents bitching about blacks.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:57 PM
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Hi. I haven't meant to leave this thread. Work, life came calling and I had to step away a bit. But partly I was pretty inhoherent in my anxiety and yes there were inconsistancies in what I wanted... parents notification and yet peivacy for kids.

As for the its 2019 no one bullies LGBTQ kids...it is better than it was but don't fool yourself. I personally know three people (age ranges 14-50) who were the target of violence in the last 4 years because of their orientation.

Ask the people in Orlando night club if violence agains homosexuas is a thing of the past.

Some kids did a stupid thing, yes, but it is not as consequence free as some might think.

I have talked to a few people at the schhol. I'm going to a parents meeting tomorrow.

Thanks for those who have shown concern and thank you for those who have tried to inject some rationality into my "all over the place" ramblings.






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Old 03-12-2019, 10:15 PM
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Good, I'm so glad you're attending the meeting. You'll feel better, I predict.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:16 PM
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I'll point out again that for Kids Today, while "fag" isn't a compliment, it does not necessarily have anything to do with accusations of homosexuality.

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Old 03-12-2019, 11:37 PM
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I'll point out again that for Kids Today, while "fag" isn't a compliment, it does not necessarily have anything to do with accusations of homosexuality.
Fuck you. You know exactly what it means in North America.
Stop clutching at straws to defend your indefensible position.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:45 PM
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I absolutely can't believe people think bullying isn't a problem in 2019. It is.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:55 PM
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Fuck you. You know exactly what it means in North America.
Stop clutching at straws to defend your indefensible position.

I think that my position that a private correspondence created as a goof by a couple-three bored jerks and then leaked by a third party does not merit banning them from prom and graduation and shutting down all school activities until everyone involved confeses is perfectly defensible. The fitting punishment for the guys is being embarrassed that their private crassness became public, not town meetings and media coverage. The only thing remotely suprising to me about a list like this existing is that it was 12th graders creating it instead of growing out of it in middle school.



And if you think my reference articles don't reflect modern teen usage, feel free to disprove them.
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:19 AM
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Except that was a private list between the three people who created it until a 4th person got one of the three's phones, found the document, and passed it around. The list creators were not bullying. Demanding that private speech be policed and punished is both draconian and Orwellian.
Beyond a certain threshold, it can get abnormal and excessive. Like if two HS students were influenced by Encyclopedia Dramatica and they decided to create a private database where they monitored other students mostly online and compiled stories and tidbits for their own use in private mockery. You can't do anything to stop that if they are discrete (as wise parents know). If they get caught, I don't think they should be allowed to attend school there.

And if such a list had expressed ideation of violent acts, TPTB anywhere would intervene. Hopefully cool heads will prevail in this case in consistency with whatever conduct guidelines are expected.
  #41  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:39 AM
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Fuck you.
This isn't the Pit. Obviously you have strong feelings about this, but you can make your point without including "Fuck you" in your post. If you feel that you need to say it, take it to the Pit.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:41 AM
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The fitting punishment for the guys is being embarrassed that their private crassness became public, not town meetings and media coverage.
In fact, in the second link provided (by you, IIRC), a school official expressed his beliefs that the kids involved will never be able to join an university. Which is a more drastic expectation that depriving them of prom or whatever.
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Last edited by clairobscur; 03-13-2019 at 10:41 AM.
  #43  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:03 AM
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I absolutely can't believe people think bullying isn't a problem in 2019. It is.
Not a single person has said that. What we have said is that nobody is being bullied here. The kids engaged in an activity which possibly could lead others to bully a student, but such is always the case with any sort of free speech. And, again, these kids did not even speak; someone else took their written thoughts and published them.

It would be similar to me writing on a piece of paper, "I disapprove of President Trump and believe he is dangerous for the country" and I leave the piece of paper at home. Someone then steals the paper and tells everyone that UltraVires does not like President Trump.

Then the powers that be want to arrest me, charge me with something or ruin my social or employment life because someone else might hear that and try to harm the President. It's absurd.

What part of this is bullying? The private thought or the writing of it? Should a student be punished if he believes another student is gay? Only if he says it? Writes it?

This anti-bullying fad has gone way too far.
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:29 AM
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Not a single person has said that. What we have said is that nobody is being bullied here. The kids engaged in an activity which possibly could lead others to bully a student, but such is always the case with any sort of free speech. And, again, these kids did not even speak; someone else took their written thoughts and published them.

It would be similar to me writing on a piece of paper, "I disapprove of President Trump and believe he is dangerous for the country" and I leave the piece of paper at home. Someone then steals the paper and tells everyone that UltraVires does not like President Trump.

Then the powers that be want to arrest me, charge me with something or ruin my social or employment life because someone else might hear that and try to harm the President. It's absurd.

What part of this is bullying? The private thought or the writing of it? Should a student be punished if he believes another student is gay? Only if he says it? Writes it?

This anti-bullying fad has gone way too far.
Would you tolerate that malicious gossip in the workplace? If not, why should children not be afforded the same consideration with regards to their environment?

Last edited by octopus; 03-13-2019 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:36 AM
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This anti-bullying fad has gone way too far.
Heh.
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:43 AM
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Would you tolerate that malicious gossip in the workplace? If not, why should children not be afforded the same consideration with regards to their environment?
How is it malicious to say that someone is gay? Did we go back to 1955 in a DeLorean?

But to your larger point, school is not like a workplace, it is a microcosm of society which prepares students for the real world. In that real world are assholes who will say mean things about you; in some cases these mean things are true, in some not.

How are we preparing students for the real world if they do not learn to deal with these assholes?
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:48 PM
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I think that my position that a private correspondence created as a goof by a couple-three bored jerks and then leaked by a third party does not merit banning them from prom and graduation and shutting down all school activities until everyone involved confeses is perfectly defensible. The fitting punishment for the guys is being embarrassed that their private crassness became public, not town meetings and media coverage. The only thing remotely suprising to me about a list like this existing is that it was 12th graders creating it instead of growing out of it in middle school.
And that position is absolutely horrible to anyone who has ever been bullied. Your position is that they deserve literally no punishment at all!

That's insane. Sure, we could debate what is and is not an appropriate punishment. But that is not what you are doing. You for some reason seem to think that bullies would somehow be embarrassed that their llist got out. No one cares about being caught if there is no punishment.

And, FYI, it wasn't "suddenly a bullying list." It was a bullying list before it was leaked. As described, it contains a their social media accounts and descriptions of how horrible they are. That's a quick, easy list for cyberbullying. It's stalkerish, honestly.

I believe you are the same age I am, or close to it. I can easily imagine a similar situation. Three kids make a list and pass it around, and give it to this fourth kid, who photocopies it to show some friends that they are on the list, and the list winds up being shared with everyone. I guarantee the people who made the list would get in trouble for it if the teachers figured it out.

And the real list has social media accounts. It has contact information. That's as if the above list had phone numbers on it.

I can't say exactly what the kids deserve for this. I don't know the severity of the list, or anything about how these kids have behaved in the past. I can say for sure, though, that they deserve more than "no punishment" and "being embarrassed."
  #48  
Old 03-13-2019, 12:51 PM
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How stupid do you think people are?
This much.

This much stupid.
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:57 PM
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How is it malicious to say that someone is gay? Did we go back to 1955 in a DeLorean?

But to your larger point, school is not like a workplace, it is a microcosm of society which prepares students for the real world. In that real world are assholes who will say mean things about you; in some cases these mean things are true, in some not.

How are we preparing students for the real world if they do not learn to deal with these assholes?
Because in real life if people are harassing you at work they can be terminated. And thatís to protect adults who have adult emotional maturity. Making sure school is safe for children is not coddling. Itís what responsible adults do in order to ensure kids can learn and grow.

I have children and I wouldnít tolerate sending them to an environment where I knew that they were being abused and couldnít do anything about it.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:47 PM
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Because in real life if people are harassing you at work they can be terminated. And thatís to protect adults who have adult emotional maturity. Making sure school is safe for children is not coddling. Itís what responsible adults do in order to ensure kids can learn and grow.

I have children and I wouldnít tolerate sending them to an environment where I knew that they were being abused and couldnít do anything about it.
I don't disagree so long as we strictly define the terms "safe" and "abused." I don't agree that we should go so far as to prohibit children/people from expressing their dislike of another person.

This issue, if we punish the students, doesn't seem to have any sort of limiting principle. Again, let's say that I am a 12th grade student and I am in love with a girl in my class. She has made clear that she wants nothing to do with me.

Now clearly, it would be inappropriate for me to keep pressing the issue with her. But, I don't think anyone would say that I couldn't not go home and use her as a masturbatory aid. I don't think that anyone would say that I couldn't write in a diary or journal that I wish she would go out with me. But where do I cross the line from being okay to being a "bully"?

Can I tell one of my friends that I wish she would change her mind? Ten friends? Anyone who asks? Can I tell one of my friends that I fantasized about her while masturbating? Ten friends? Anyone who asks?

What if a friend steals my diary, takes a picture of the page and puts in on Facebook? My fault or his? Indeed, what if I put it on Facebook? Is a person not allowed to make a public expression of love for someone else, even if that love is unrequited?

Now, I realize that much of this certainly crosses the line from "okay" to "a real creepy bastard" but that is a subjective thing that any person is free to have an opinion about. When does it cross the line into something that the powers that be take official action against me?
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