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Old 03-11-2019, 02:05 PM
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What defenses are currently employed against affirmative-action/gender cheaters?


(Not a political debate: )


Suppose someone who is obviously white lies that they are black, Hispanic, Arab, Native-American, etc. on college applications in order to try to edge in on admissions on affirmative action - what defenses do colleges such as Harvard or Ivy Leagues/MIT/Stanford etc. employ against it? Without a face-to-face interview or requiring photos on admissions, how would they know that someone with the surname of "Smith" or "Miller" isn't black instead of white? (Would be harder with Hispanic or other racial surnames, but there would still be ways)



Likewise, in organizations that currently permit people to use the restroom of the gender they identify with, what safeguards do they employ to verify that someone who looks 100% male but goes into the female restroom is in fact doing so out of genuine identification as XX and not just because he wants to be a gender troll?
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:08 PM
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Re the second question. What happens when transgender male use the Ladies' room because the law requires it?
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
(Not a political debate: )


Suppose someone who is obviously white lies that they are black, Hispanic, Arab, Native-American, etc. on college applications in order to try to edge in on admissions on affirmative action - what defenses do colleges such as Harvard or Ivy Leagues/MIT/Stanford etc. employ against it? Without a face-to-face interview or requiring photos on admissions, how would they know that someone with the surname of "Smith" or "Miller" isn't black instead of white? (Would be harder with Hispanic or other racial surnames, but there would still be ways)

Surnames have nothing to do with it. My kids identify as Native American and are enrolled with their tribe. Nonetheless, they have my “Jewish“ surname. The are at least twice as much Native as Jewish.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:31 PM
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In my workplace the definition of "someone for whom it is appropriate to use the XXX restroom" is officially "someone who considers it to be appropriate for themselves to use the XXX restroom". Not only is there no mechanism to 'check', it is officially a violation of policy to make any such attempt and doing so will get you in trouble. And that is as it should be.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:37 PM
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2nd question, it's probably the same safeguards they use to prevent harassment of transgendered people when they use the bathroom they genuinely identify with.

That is, if someone is abusing their bathroom privileges, or is abusive to people in the bathroom, they can be reported.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Suppose someone who is obviously white lies that they are black, Hispanic, Arab, Native-American, etc. on college applications in order to try to edge in on admissions on affirmative action - what defenses do colleges such as Harvard or Ivy Leagues/MIT/Stanford etc. employ against it? Without a face-to-face interview or requiring photos on admissions, how would they know that someone with the surname of "Smith" or "Miller" isn't black instead of white? (Would be harder with Hispanic or other racial surnames, but there would still be ways)
Probably none, much like against other issues that are so rare that any defense possible would not be worth the effort. Why institute face-to-face interviews to prevent something that almost never happens, rather than just assume that very few people would try it, and that those that might be tempted are discouraged by a fear that they'll get into trouble when they, you know, show up for school. (Or start a political career.)
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:16 PM
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There was some forgettable college hijinks movie in the 80's where someone pretended to be black to get a minority scholarship to Harvard(?). ("Soul Man"?)

The only part that I found memorable was the bit where the guy learns...
"Son, I've decided to give you a special gift."
"What's that, dad?"
"Your manhood."
"Umm... what does this mean in practical terms?"
"I've decided to let you pay for your own college. My therapist says I should spend that money on myself, since I've earned it."

I would assume that claiming a financial benefit based on a lie is fraud. If this scholarship is only open to black people, or women, or... and someone not qualified lies to obtain it, they have essentially committed fraud. If they sincerely believed it, that might be a defence against criminal prosecution. For anything else - say, joining a club or participating in a march, etc. - well, if you pass, you pass. (Much like using the washroom. What is the charge for going in the wrong washroom, if you don't harass or disturb other occupants?) I do wonder about affirmative action - since discrimination is technically illegal, and they presumably were hired on the merits of their resume, what benefit have they gained?

Last edited by md2000; 03-11-2019 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:20 PM
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In my workplace the definition of "someone for whom it is appropriate to use the XXX restroom" is officially "someone who considers it to be appropriate for themselves to use the XXX restroom". Not only is there no mechanism to 'check', it is officially a violation of policy to make any such attempt and doing so will get you in trouble. And that is as it should be.
Is that how it should be for the OP's first question? When there is a tangible benefit, say a scholarship that is only open for women, or an admission where a woman gets a plus benefit in a holistic model that complies with Supreme Court precedent, should there be no sort of verification?
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:37 PM
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Which leads us to the current debate about transgender athletes. If a fairly good male athlete decides to declare himself as a female, this would give 'him' an unfair advantage over the women in the same event. Obviously, there are many shades to this; not least those who genuinely transition, but they still have an advantage.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:56 PM
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Is that how it should be for the OP's first question? When there is a tangible benefit, say a scholarship that is only open for women, or an admission where a woman gets a plus benefit in a holistic model that complies with Supreme Court precedent, should there be no sort of verification?
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Which leads us to the current debate about transgender athletes. If a fairly good male athlete decides to declare himself as a female, this would give 'him' an unfair advantage over the women in the same event. Obviously, there are many shades to this; not least those who genuinely transition, but they still have an advantage.
[Moderating]

Discussions about fairness belong in Great Debates. Let's stick strictly to the question in the OP. If you want to discuss the fairness of not verifying identity, start a new thread in Great Debates.

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Old 03-11-2019, 06:15 PM
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By an old standard that certainly commonly into the 50s and certainly later less commonly, anyone with one-drop of black (though it would have been phrased Negro or worse) blood was black. By that standard it would be essentially impossible to verify blackness by looks.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:37 PM
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Likewise, in organizations that currently permit people to use the restroom of the gender they identify with, what safeguards do they employ to verify that someone who looks 100% male but goes into the female restroom is in fact doing so out of genuine identification as XX and not just because he wants to be a gender troll?
This just doesn't happen, in practice.
Transgendered people make one of their first changes by wearing clothes, makeup, etc. of the gender they identify with. Long before they start any hormonal or surgical changes. So a M-to-F transgender person would not be at all "100% male" looking by this time they begin to use the women's restroom, th nobody would even notice them.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
(Not a political debate: )


Suppose someone who is obviously white lies that they are black, Hispanic, Arab, Native-American, etc. on college applications in order to try to edge in on admissions on affirmative action - what defenses do colleges such as Harvard or Ivy Leagues/MIT/Stanford etc. employ against it? Without a face-to-face interview or requiring photos on admissions, how would they know that someone with the surname of "Smith" or "Miller" isn't black instead of white? (Would be harder with Hispanic or other racial surnames, but there would still be ways)
What test would demonstrate that a person is black or white? Does it require a paper bag?
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:32 PM
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What test would demonstrate that a person is black or white? Does it require a paper bag?
Well, that is part of the question, kind of. Surely there is some you-know-it-when-you-see-it standard in admissions offices that would not accept some blond-haired, blue-eyed pale-skinned applicant trying to claim black affirmative action status as someone who looks black and is black?
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:18 AM
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Well, that is part of the question, kind of. Surely there is some you-know-it-when-you-see-it standard in admissions offices that would not accept some blond-haired, blue-eyed pale-skinned applicant trying to claim black affirmative action status as someone who looks black and is black?
You know it when you see it? Would you know if Carol Channing showed up? Literary critic Anatole Broyard? Soledad O'Brian? How about civil rights leader Walter Francis White, who was pale-skinned, blue-eyed, and blonde-haired?

The fact is, you can't tell visually if someone might have some African ancestry. So I think most admissions offices would probably accept self-identification. I think the odds of someone trying to "pass" as black are sufficiently low that it's just not worth the hassle of investigating to try to identify them, or the risk of bad publicity (and possibly lawsuits) if you did so and were proved wrong.
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Old 03-12-2019, 01:39 AM
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I've posted this on here before... somewhere... but i have a related and true story...

Brother's friend's roommate had a boyfriend who was from Africa. Applied for a scholarship at a US state university and got it as he was from Africa and the school thought he would be black. He was mixed, which was obvious, but not "black enough" and was rolled over to another scholarship program. Requirements for acceptance to the specific scholarship program were updated.

We certainly need metrics to track, and IMO, so that everyone gets their fair chance at success.

I think a start would be to update the count of congressional seats to be more respective of the our demographics, which is clearly what is not what is represented right now.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:35 AM
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I could also see an issue with using "African-American" as a code for Black. What if you are 100% caucasian from South Africa or a Moor from northern Africa?
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:40 AM
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I have never heard of any enforcement mechanism to test for these categories.

Except I guess some high-level athletic events test the women for testosterone and Y chromosomes.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:20 AM
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I would think that rather than making an admissions decision purely on the basis that the applicant is black or Hispanic or whatever, the decision would be made on the basis of geography and disadvantage. Say the applicant's high school is in urban Atlanta and it's known to have mostly African-American students, most of whom either don't go to college or only go to the state schools. An applicant from there with good grades, test scores and a compelling story is going to be considered by an Ivy League or other highly competitive college in the Northeast.

Meanwhile the African-American applicant from Greenwich, Connecticut whose father is a corporate lawyer and whose mother is a neurosurgeon is less disadvantaged.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:24 AM
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I can't think of any "defenses" that aren't/wouldn't be overly intrusive and/or designed to discriminate.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:26 AM
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Brother's friend's roommate had a boyfriend who was from Africa. Applied for a scholarship at a US state university and got it as he was from Africa and the school thought he would be black. He was mixed, which was obvious, but not "black enough" and was rolled over to another scholarship program. Requirements for acceptance to the specific scholarship program were updated.
It's hard to evaluate what the actual situation might have been from a fifth-hand story. It would be interesting to see what the actual wording of the scholarship was.

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I could also see an issue with using "African-American" as a code for Black. What if you are 100% caucasian from South Africa or a Moor from northern Africa?
My brother's wife is a white South African (English, Norwegian, and Boer ancestry), and in that sense my white nephews are African-Americans (not of course the actual meaning of the term in the US). On the other hand, my sister's husband was a black Guyanese, so although my niece and nephew are black they are not African-American in the sense the term was originally employed, of being descended from slaves brought to the US from Africa.

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Old 03-12-2019, 09:36 AM
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There was some forgettable college hijinks movie in the 80's where someone pretended to be black to get a minority scholarship to Harvard(?). ("Soul Man"?)
Yes, Soul Man with C Thomas Howell. A spectacular film in that it manages to simultaneously rail against racism while perpetuating the horrific racism it is railing against. He ends up having to pay back the money.

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I could also see an issue with using "African-American" as a code for Black. What if you are 100% caucasian from South Africa or a Moor from northern Africa?
I used to work in university admissions and dealt with overseas students. I got the university to change the (self-reported) racial category on the application form from "African-American" to "Black/African-American" on the basis that there was no category for black non-Americans. This wasn't scholarship-related, by the way; it was just for demographic statistics purposes.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:48 AM
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I was curious how this is handled in reality. So the requirements for The Frederick Douglass Bicentennial Scholarship Program from the United Negro College Fund include "be enrolled full-time as a rising senior at any accredited public or private four-year HBCU". It says nothing about actually being black. On the other hand, the UNCF/Koch Scholars Program lists among the requirements that the applicant be African-American or black.

Last edited by Dewey Finn; 03-12-2019 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:50 AM
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Well, that is part of the question, kind of. Surely there is some you-know-it-when-you-see-it standard in admissions offices that would not accept some blond-haired, blue-eyed pale-skinned applicant trying to claim black affirmative action status as someone who looks black and is black?
Bullshit. I have a friend who is black, yet is very light-skinned. His wife is Irish. Their 3 kids run the gamut from very black to white-as-a-sheet.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:57 AM
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(Not a political debate: )


Suppose someone who is obviously white...
It is obvious that your premise is flawed from the start.
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:06 AM
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I was curious how this is handled in reality. So the requirements for The Frederick Douglass Bicentennial Scholarship Program from the United Negro College Fund include "be enrolled full-time as a rising senior at any accredited public or private four-year HBCU". It says nothing about actually being black.
Given that Historically Black Colleges and Universities routinely accept white students, and that now some are even majority white, I would think that would mean that that scholarship is simply open to whites as well as blacks.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:49 PM
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I can't think of any "defenses" that aren't/wouldn't be overly intrusive and/or designed to discriminate.
Isn’t any requirement/criteria/standard in and of itself discriminating?
Even randomly choosing from all applications discriminates against those who didn’t apply.
Where the line(s) are drawn is the debate.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:52 PM
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But this isn't a debate.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:52 PM
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We're debating?
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Old 03-12-2019, 01:14 PM
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That's debatable.
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Old 03-12-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
(Not a political debate: )


Suppose someone who is obviously white lies that they are black, Hispanic, Arab, Native-American, etc. on college applications in order to try to edge in on admissions on affirmative action - what defenses do colleges such as Harvard or Ivy Leagues/MIT/Stanford etc. employ against it? Without a face-to-face interview or requiring photos on admissions, how would they know that someone with the surname of "Smith" or "Miller" isn't black instead of white? (Would be harder with Hispanic or other racial surnames, but there would still be ways)



Likewise, in organizations that currently permit people to use the restroom of the gender they identify with, what safeguards do they employ to verify that someone who looks 100% male but goes into the female restroom is in fact doing so out of genuine identification as XX and not just because he wants to be a gender troll?
You are what you identify as. That's the law (exception is being a legal member of a Federally recognized tribe, but that has other benefits and issues). There was a girl in one of my classes, blondish hair, freckles, she Ids as black, turns out she was 1/4 black. But he family lived in a black neighborhood, etc. Who are you to say who is "obviously white"?

Next:
When and IF that becomes a real issue, except in the minds of bigots and homophobes, we can discuss it.
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:25 PM
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That's debatable.
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:50 PM
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Isn’t any requirement/criteria/standard in and of itself discriminating?
Even randomly choosing from all applications discriminates against those who didn’t apply.
Where the line(s) are drawn is the debate.
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But this isn't a debate.
Moderating

Right. Stick to factual responses. If you want to debate, take it to GD.

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Old 03-12-2019, 03:16 PM
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This wasn't scholarship-related, by the way; it was just for demographic statistics purposes.
Isn't that what such questions are for now, in most government entities? Because I thought the US Supreme Court killed affirmative action programs in college admissions years ago. (Scholarship programs, being private groups, can discriminate as they choose.)

Note that 'cheating' is possible on nearly any such restrictions, and usually it would cost more to set up a program to catch it than it's worth. People can be really inventive.
At one time, our City added a requirement that police officers had to live within the city limits. When preparing a mailing of sample ballots to registered voters, I noticed 6 police officers, all 'residing' in a small studio apartment in the city. Two of them were married, but their spouses were registered to vote at houses in the suburbs.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:30 AM
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Isn't that what such questions are for now, in most government entities? Because I thought the US Supreme Court killed affirmative action programs in college admissions years ago. (Scholarship programs, being private groups, can discriminate as they choose.)
As I recall, it was to be able to ensure that there wasn't any discrimination in the admissions process. Ironically, before I joined they had tried to prevent discrimination by simply not asking for data on race...and then got penalized because they couldn't demonstrate they weren't discriminating because they didn't have any data on race.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:40 AM
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As I recall, it was to be able to ensure that there wasn't any discrimination in the admissions process. Ironically, before I joined they had tried to prevent discrimination by simply not asking for data on race...and then got penalized because they couldn't demonstrate they weren't discriminating because they didn't have any data on race.
I can't believe they didn't give your school's faultless program to eliminate discrimination the credit it deserves. Yeah, no school could possibly discriminate without race data. No school would ever discriminate against minorities by merely giving legacy preference to children of alumni, restricting their on-campus recruiting efforts to segregation academies in the south, and advertising only in "Aryan Nation Weekly." They might even be able to dispense with the in-person interviews designed to ensure that little Charleston Langefordian Gillmontburger VII is a "good fit for the school."
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:23 AM
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Isn't that what such questions are for now, in most government entities? Because I thought the US Supreme Court killed affirmative action programs in college admissions years ago.
Affirmative action was upheld in Fisher v. Texas.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:38 AM
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I can't believe they didn't give your school's faultless program to eliminate discrimination the credit it deserves. Yeah, no school could possibly discriminate without race data. No school would ever discriminate against minorities by merely giving legacy preference to children of alumni, restricting their on-campus recruiting efforts to segregation academies in the south, and advertising only in "Aryan Nation Weekly." They might even be able to dispense with the in-person interviews designed to ensure that little Charleston Langefordian Gillmontburger VII is a "good fit for the school."
Moderating

Let's save the snark. Gyrate's post didn't imply any of that. In fact, most schools do ask such questions in order to have data to demonstrate that they don't discriminate. Whether or not such questions prevent discrimination is another issue.

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Old 03-13-2019, 09:46 AM
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I can't believe they didn't give your school's faultless program to eliminate discrimination the credit it deserves. Yeah, no school could possibly discriminate without race data. No school would ever discriminate against minorities by merely giving legacy preference to children of alumni, restricting their on-campus recruiting efforts to segregation academies in the south, and advertising only in "Aryan Nation Weekly." They might even be able to dispense with the in-person interviews designed to ensure that little Charleston Langefordian Gillmontburger VII is a "good fit for the school."
Mod note aside, I think you're overestimating the target population of the university I worked at. If anything, top priority was given to anyone of any race who could tick the "Are you good at football?" box.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:15 AM
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Moderating

Let's save the snark. Gyrate's post didn't imply any of that. In fact, most schools do ask such questions in order to have data to demonstrate that they don't discriminate. Whether or not such questions prevent discrimination is another issue.

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My apologies for the heavy-handed snark.

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Mod note aside, I think you're overestimating the target population of the university I worked at. If anything, top priority was given to anyone of any race who could tick the "Are you good at football?" box.
I wasn't assuming anything about your school's recruiting targets but I did want to push back against the idea that we can solve systemic racism in this country by allowing white people to pretend that "they don't see color." Failing to collect data about how minorities are treated is both a symptom and a cause of the problem. I am sorry that I harshly tried to make my point at your expense.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:54 AM
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So really, to get back to the OP - if a person is not receiving a financial benefit from making an incorrect claim of race or gender - what does it matter?

At one extreme, we have someone in the news a while ago who claimed she was black - and seems to have passed or been accepted for several years until she was called out. So who cares? At the other extreme, the first actual black president of the USA was raised in a white household as a son of a college professor (with some time spent in Asia) and son of someone born and raised in Africa, grew up in the most racially diverse state with a comparatively small black population, went to Harvard and excelled... about as far as you can get from an African-American "typical" experience and the consequent justification for affirmative action.

I suppose the point here is that no matter what the generalities, there are always going to be outliers and no specific rule can cover everything.
If a person is given a position or admission to school based on a claim that turns out to be false, what recourse is there? Presumably you can expel the person for incorrect application data; but then, you would likely have to show they would not have received the position with the correct information?
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by md2000 View Post
So really, to get back to the OP - if a person is not receiving a financial benefit from making an incorrect claim of race or gender - what does it matter?

At one extreme, we have someone in the news a while ago who claimed she was black - and seems to have passed or been accepted for several years until she was called out. So who cares? At the other extreme, the first actual black president of the USA was raised in a white household as a son of a college professor (with some time spent in Asia) and son of someone born and raised in Africa, grew up in the most racially diverse state with a comparatively small black population, went to Harvard and excelled... about as far as you can get from an African-American "typical" experience and the consequent justification for affirmative action.

I suppose the point here is that no matter what the generalities, there are always going to be outliers and no specific rule can cover everything.
If a person is given a position or admission to school based on a claim that turns out to be false, what recourse is there? Presumably you can expel the person for incorrect application data; but then, you would likely have to show they would not have received the position with the correct information?
Not to speak for the OP, but I believe this is why he is asking about verification. You probably could not do much after the fact so perhaps there is a need to do it beforehand.

I think the OP's question is still unanswered in that what does it mean to be a female or to be black/african-american?
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:57 PM
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I think the OP's question is still unanswered in that what does it mean to be a female or to be black/african-american?
So far, no one has provided evidence that with regard to college admissions or bathroom use those terms mean anything more than self-identification as such.

What those terms mean in a broader sense is beyond the scope of this thread, and probably of GQ.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:01 PM
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If you really want to know what defense there is against a false claim of being African-American, call the United Negro College Fund and ask them. They're probably the largest source of scholarships for black and African-American students. But I'm not volunteering to make the call.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:17 PM
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Not to speak for the OP, but I believe this is why he is asking about verification. You probably could not do much after the fact so perhaps there is a need to do it beforehand.

I think the OP's question is still unanswered in that what does it mean to be a female or to be black/african-american?
Your race is whatever you self- Identify as, thus a false claim is nigh impossible.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:10 PM
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Your race is whatever you self- Identify as, thus a false claim is nigh impossible.
But this is wide open for abuse. Right now, the number of cheaters in college admissions in this manner might be near zero, but if hypothetically there were a large number of white people who identified as black or Hispanic, etc. for the sake of edging in on college admissions, that would be completely counterproductive to the original interest of affirmative action - which was to promote the interests of disadvantaged minorities.

It would be like "We are giving preference in admissions to low-income students" and then a millionaire student steps in and says "I self-identify as a poor person" to try to snatch away that benefit. Or like a male athlete saying "I self-identify as female, without any hormone therapy or surgery" to try to snatch up medals in women's sports (which is what the upcoming Canada Winter Games would actually technically allow.)
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:24 PM
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But this is wide open for abuse.
We are to be concerned about situations that are "wide open for abuse" but in reality produce little to no actual abuse at all? I think not, which explains the lack of such defenses in this situation.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:32 PM
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But this is wide open for abuse. Right now, the number of cheaters in college admissions in this manner might be near zero, but if hypothetically there were a large number of white people who identified as black or Hispanic, etc. for the sake of edging in on college admissions, that would be completely counterproductive to the original interest of affirmative action - which was to promote the interests of disadvantaged minorities.
A hypothetical problem doesn't require a defense unless it becomes a real problem. And your question is whether such defenses are in place.

Any defense strategy depends on its costs and benefits. Under present conditions, the benefits are low, since there are few cheaters, and the costs are high, in terms of the effort needed to make an investigation and the bad publicity that would result from an erroneous accusation of cheating.

The real "defense" against this is not anything that could be imposed by the university but the social cost of being found out. Any cheater would need to weigh the financial benefit of the scholarship vs the enormous social cost of being found out. A white student who was found out trying to pass for black without being able to prove black ancestry would be likely to be ostracized by both his black and white classmates. And what good would the degree be if you applied for jobs looking white, while your resume listed a scholarship only available to blacks? I'm sure the company could find some reason not to hire you while not explicitly making it about race. And even if you did get hired, you would still be subject to ostracism by your co-workers.

Some of the "people you didn't know were black" I linked to above like Soledad O'Brian and Walter Francis White were criticized by blacks because of they looked too white, but could authentically demonstrate black ancestry. A cheater would be unable to defend against the same criticism.

Last edited by Colibri; 03-13-2019 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:59 PM
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There's probably a separate thread about it, and it's not 100% on point here, but I think somewhat relevant: the recently announced mass indictments of parents and facilitators bribing their way to SAT cheating and fake athletic scholarships to get their kids into competitive colleges. One might have previously asked, 'what's the defense against that?' (not a lot it appears). And one might have previously assumed 'well there aren't a lot of people doing that'. And those indictments don't prove 1,000's or millions of people are doing it, it's several dozen caught up in that particular net. But who knows exactly how prevalent.

Same might go for this case. It's plausible to say that fake claims of membership in groups given race preferences in college admissions is not a significant issue, but not entirely obvious that it isn't. And also it depends how much cheating one thinks it takes to be a big problem. I guess many people (reasonably IMO) who have themselves or had their kids compete fairly for college admission in recent years are pretty upset about those bribery/fraud allegations, albeit again it's only dozens of people caught doing it.

Whatever the frequency of this is now or has been, there's sure to be more dispute as time goes on and intergroup marriage (especially wrt 'Hispanics' and 'whites') becomes routine. Assuming college race preferences last in the courts for much longer that is. The probable lack of longevity IMO is also related to this issue, for example the perceived fairness if my potential grand kids claim a race preference based on nominally being 1/2 Hispanic (but counting their mother as 100% Hispanic when her own mother is child of European immigrants to South America). Assuming they'd duck the anti-preference for being 1/4 Asian. The growing frequency of that kind of situation, plus the rise of a significant elite among blacks and Hispanics (Natives not as much), whose children are a disproportionate % of the black/Hispanic candidates for competitive schools, is making the race preference system unworkable. Outright cheating isn't the system's biggest problem.

Last edited by Corry El; 03-13-2019 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:14 PM
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Same might go for this case. It's plausible to say that fake claims of membership in groups given race preferences in college admissions is not a significant issue, but not entirely obvious that it isn't. And also it depends how much cheating one thinks it takes to be a big problem. I guess many people (reasonably IMO) who have themselves or had their kids compete fairly for college admission in recent years are pretty upset about those bribery/fraud allegations, albeit again it's only dozens of people caught doing it.
The very basic difference there is that students who gained admission on the basis of bribery would not be identifiable visually.

Now I've made the point that it's not absolutely possible to be sure that any given individual who appears white might not actually have some black ancestry. However, if there were significant numbers of students who appeared white applying for black scholarships that could suggest there was a potential problem, even if some of them did have black ancestry. But I think the number of students who appear white who apply for such scholarships is very small, whether they can prove African ancestry or not. In other words, you can set an upper limit on the potential problem, and that limit is very low.

Last edited by Colibri; 03-13-2019 at 03:16 PM.
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