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Old 03-21-2019, 04:53 PM
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Vegan blogger Yovana Mendoza Ayres.


This isn't so much an angry pitting a pointing and laughing at her. She has ran a popular vegan blog for several years--and has recently been caught eating fish because her vegan diet was killing her. So--ha, ha!
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:51 PM
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So the vegan diet she was touting to others caused her significant health problems; so much so that she chose to add animal protein back into her diet. Yet she continued to tout to others the vegan diet which was causing her significant health problems. Without mentioning that she was no longer on said vegan diet. That she was touting to others.

I'm pretty much live and let live over the dietary choices that adults make, but that's fucked up. I'm so mad I lost my grammar.

Last edited by Qadgop the Mercotan; 03-21-2019 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:56 PM
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Some people can be vegan, some can't. I had a good friend whose quality of life was improved and definitely prolonged when he went vegan. He did it for health reasons and for him it was right. I took a workshop years ago with health food expert Annemarie Colbin, and she said her husband could not do a vegetarian diet (let alone vegan). It made him ill. People should do what works for them. Why this is a topic for ridicule and scorn is a mystery to me.
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Old 03-21-2019, 06:02 PM
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Some people's systems can tolerate a vegan lifestyle and some can't.

Her error was in not explaining her change of diet and the reasoning behind it when it happened.
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Old 03-21-2019, 06:14 PM
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I'm pretty sure I could handle a vegan diet, but I've never tried it. I'm sure if I did, though, I would kick ass at it.
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Old 03-21-2019, 06:18 PM
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Why this is a topic for ridicule and scorn is a mystery to me.
I don't know who this person is, but I'd guess that it's the hypocrisy that's deserving of scorn, not the dietary choices.
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Old 03-21-2019, 06:33 PM
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If I am correctly interpreting what I'm reading, she was not only vegan, but a raw food vegan. I'm all for people making their own dietary decisions, but they should be evidence-based. And (though I am not a physician or nutritionist), I think the science says that humans can't get the nutrients they need through a purely raw, non-animal, unsupplemented diet. There are some decent sources of protein for vegans - brown or red rice and legumes, for example - but they need to be cooked. And as I understand it, the best/only way for a vegan to get adequate B12 is from a supplement.

Anyway, I like this pitting/PALATV (point and laugh at the vegan).
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:02 PM
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People should do what works for them. Why this is a topic for ridicule and scorn is a mystery to me.
Well, most of the vegans I have met judge the fuck out of me for doing in what works for me.
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:59 PM
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Yet she continued to tout to others the vegan diet which was causing her significant health problems. Without mentioning that she was no longer on said vegan diet. That she was touting to others.
"Do as I say, not as I do."
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:11 AM
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Here is a great article about a group that promotes an extreme raw vegan diet. One of the goals of this diet is to eliminate protein completely although getting it down to less than 10% is a more realistic goal. For this reason nuts aren’t allowed on this diet ( although IMHO, they’re all nuts).

This article tells the story of a couple of major proponents of the diet that fell out of favor because they developed a version of the diet that allowed one cooked high carb no protein meal in the evenings.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/broadly...-eat-raw-fruit
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:26 AM
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Here is a great article about a group that promotes an extreme raw vegan diet. One of the goals of this diet is to eliminate protein completely although getting it down to less than 10% is a more realistic goal. For this reason nuts arenít allowed on this diet ( although IMHO, theyíre all nuts).
There's no good thing (like eating more fruit) that won't be taken to a pathological extreme by some people.

The thing I find most absurd about such diets is that they are touted as "natural," when such diets wouldn't even be natural for a chimpanzee. Increased meat in the diet was one of the things that helped us evolve and support large brains.
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:30 AM
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Well, most of the vegans I have met judge the fuck out of me for doing in what works for me.
I tend to be on the "who gives a shit" side, but my experiences with vegans have all been positive. I do contemplate veganism and vegetarianism every once in awhile, but I just love meat too damned much. Still, I respect people who do so, and they tend to be the nicest, sweetest people I know. I understand people apparently have other experiences with vegans (I have never been lectured to about my eating habits), so I'm sorry all y'all are just meeting the assholes of the bunch.
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:53 AM
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Here is a great article about a group that promotes an extreme raw vegan diet. One of the goals of this diet is to eliminate protein completely although getting it down to less than 10% is a more realistic goal. For this reason nuts aren’t allowed on this diet ( although IMHO, they’re all nuts).
Hopefully they'll manage to Darwinize themselves before subjecting any children to such a diet. I'm remembering my classmate who hadn't gotten her period at 17; when her mother took her to the doctor, the doctor prescribed "steaks". The mother was obsessed with keeping her daughters thin and had them on a diet of little more than lettuce, tomato and onion; we'd share our midmorning footlong subs of potato omelette with them and that was their main source of carbs and protein.
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Old 03-22-2019, 10:08 AM
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Meh. People love hating on vegans.

I mean, if you so much as start a thread asking for a recipe for vegetarian lasagna by the 5th post it will have devolved into "all vegetarians are assholes that are trying to convert me and I'm going to enjoy a big juicy steak tonight ha ha ha".

I too have heard tell of the judgmental, proselytizing vegan trying to convert everyone around them, but i've never actually seen one in the wild.
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:36 AM
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I used to hang out with a lot of vegans. Mostly they were as people have said sweet and principled people. They coined the term "Vegan Thought Police" for the other kind who would go through people's food cupboards and critique them harshly
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Old 03-22-2019, 12:00 PM
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I too have heard tell of the judgmental, proselytizing vegan trying to convert everyone around them, but i've never actually seen one in the wild.
I have. One. He converted one of my sisters.
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Old 03-22-2019, 12:00 PM
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FFS. The point isn't that she is (or was) a vegan and people are hating on her. The point is that she's yet another YouTube "celebrity" who was talking out of her ass, promoting a bullshit "health solution" with no background or expertise to back it up, and she got caught in her lie.
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Old 03-22-2019, 12:31 PM
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FFS. The point isn't that she is (or was) a vegan and people are hating on her. The point is that she's yet another YouTube "celebrity" who was talking out of her ass, promoting a bullshit "health solution" with no background or expertise to back it up, and she got caught in her lie.
Oh, my bad. The title of the thread is "Vegan blogger Yovana Mendoza Ayres". And essentially (if not actually) every post in the thread thus far is about vegans or the vegan diet. But you're right, everyone in the thread was really trying to make an unspoken larger point about health bloggers without the proper credentials.

I agree that the internet is full of shitty health advice. But this is definitely a thread about laughing at a (failed) vegan, not a thread about shitty health advice on the internet. The internet just loves to hate vegans, and cyclists, and... Nickelback.
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Old 03-22-2019, 12:31 PM
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I too have heard tell of the judgmental, proselytizing vegan trying to convert everyone around them, but i've never actually seen one in the wild.
I once inadvertently moved in to a house share with one. One who used the place as a headquarters for all the obnoxious hypocritical vegans in the city. As an example, said housemate kept 3 dogs, refused to walk them and did stuff like going away for the weekend just expecting the rest of the house to care for 'em, while loudly campaigning against keeping animals in captivity, to the extent of physically assaulting a member of zoo staff simply because she found out what his job was...

I'm vegetarian, but I had to hide my veggie pizza in my bedroom or she'd be furious.


I have sane vegan friends, but the crazy ones can be really impressive.
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Old 03-22-2019, 12:41 PM
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FFS. The point isn't that she is (or was) a vegan and people are hating on her. The point is that she's yet another YouTube "celebrity" who was talking out of her ass, promoting a bullshit "health solution" with no background or expertise to back it up, and she got caught in her lie.
Yes, I should clarify my own post, which could easily be interpreted as "I think vegans are stupid and should be mocked." Not at all. I actually own, use, and favorably reviewed one of Dreena Burton's cookbooks, and she seems pretty hard core. And a couple of nights ago I cooked a delicious vegan meal for some friends. What's objectionable is not vegan eating, but hypocrisy and/or refusal to accept scientific reality about what nutritional intake human body needs to be healthy.
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Old 03-22-2019, 01:38 PM
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I agree that the internet is full of shitty health advice. But this is definitely a thread about laughing at a (failed) vegan, not a thread about shitty health advice on the internet. The internet just loves to hate vegans, and cyclists, and... Nickelback.
Well, hating Nickelback just makes good sense. Years ago I was at my mom's for Thanksgiving with my siblings. My brother was watching one of the football games, and I was in the room, but not really paying attention. Halftime came and the band started playing. Gradually, it started sinking into my consciousness, and I asked my brother "When did Pearl Jam get so bad?"

It was Nickelback.
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Old 03-22-2019, 01:54 PM
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Although I have an allergy to proselytizing vegans, in all fairness it should be pointed out (if one trusts the Daily Mail to get this right) that her health apparently wasn't helped by going on a 25-day water fast.

Anyway, this seems like an appropriate soundtrack for the thread.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:31 PM
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IMHO she's pittable because she continued to advocate for a diet that she no longer followed because it damaged her health, and did not inform those she advocated the diet to that it had harmed her nor that she was no longer on it.

The diet itself is irrelevant to the ethical dilemma she presents.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:52 PM
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Coupling, Season 1 Episode 4, 'Inferno':

Jill: Youíre not a vegetarian!

Jane: Iím a bi-vegetarian!

Jill: What? That doesnít exist! Itís not possible!

Jane: Iím an emotional vegetarian, Jill. I know a lot of vegetarians and we tend to like the same films.

Jill: You could never finish your greens and you could suck a whole pig through a straw.

Jane: Iím not exclusively vegetarian Jill, if thatís what youíre trying to say. Vegetarianism for me is about saying yes to thingsÖeven meat.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:04 PM
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I'm in book publishing and do the original pagination/layouts. Anyway--about 10 or 12 years ago I worked on a Raw Food book with tons of pictures of the author and her restaurant. To be me the stuff sounded disgusting, but I it was my job to do the book, which I did.

What really amazed me (and I laugh about it today) is during the third pass or so of proofs, the author asked us touch up a bunch of her photos to make her "look healthier." That's right--In the photos she looked like death warmed over, so she wanted them Photoshopped to make her look healthier.

So we had to touch up her photos to make her look healthy in a book about how healthy the raw food diet was.
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:06 PM
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Does this person have a nutritionist education or background? Why would someone follow a random person espousing a diet in videos that anyone can post?
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:09 PM
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^^Because that's how the the world seems to be. People follow people on YouTube and all they are doing is opening a box.

Last edited by TheCuse; 03-22-2019 at 07:09 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:49 PM
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There's no good thing (like eating more fruit) that won't be taken to a pathological extreme by some people.

The thing I find most absurd about such diets is that they are touted as "natural," when such diets wouldn't even be natural for a chimpanzee. Increased meat in the diet was one of the things that helped us evolve and support large brains.
Plus this whole idea that "natural" is somehow better. Snake venom and strychnine are both "natural" too, but they're not exactly something I'd put in my body.

There are some CRAZY vegan blogs, and some of them, like the Fit Vegan Ginger, seem to be little more than excuses for anorexia.
(Half of her so-called "recipes" looked like vomit, and she herself looked absolutely horrendous)


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Oh, my bad. The title of the thread is "Vegan blogger Yovana Mendoza Ayres". And essentially (if not actually) every post in the thread thus far is about vegans or the vegan diet. But you're right, everyone in the thread was really trying to make an unspoken larger point about health bloggers without the proper credentials.

I agree that the internet is full of shitty health advice. But this is definitely a thread about laughing at a (failed) vegan, not a thread about shitty health advice on the internet. The internet just loves to hate vegans, and cyclists, and... Nickelback.

Blame organizations like PETA. They're the assholes who ruin it for for your normal, sane vegans.

That and RAW vegan diets are not healthy in any way, shape, or form.
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:23 PM
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Does this person have a nutritionist education or background? Why would someone follow a random person espousing a diet in videos that anyone can post?
People are dumb, welcome to the internet!
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:14 AM
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Increased meat in the diet was one of the things that helped us evolve and support large brains.
Could you elaborate on this?
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:31 AM
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Could you elaborate on this?
Meat, Fire And The Evolution Of Man
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Then our ancestors discovered meat. Meat contains lots of calories in a small package. More meat allowed our guts to shrink. Digestion wasn't so labor-intensive, so to speak. So where did the body's extra energy go? Into building a bigger brain! That's the theory, anyway.
But! That was from 2010. This article is from 2017.
Quote:
Monkeys and apes who incorporated animal proteins into their diets also had slightly larger brains than the leaf eaters, the Nature Ecology and Evolution study found... But DeCasien says she and her colleagues were surprised to find that these omnivores have significantly smaller brains than fruit-eaters....

(Now, diet is thought to have played a big role in making human brains bigger than any of our primate cousin's. As we've reported before, scientists think eating cooked meat gave our bodies some extra energy to fuel the building of bigger brains.)
So the hypothesis that eating meat allowed primate brains to grow larger has been around for a long time. The new study indicates that animal protein might not be the reason, since fruit-eaters have larger brains. But larger brains may be from a combination of animal protein and social interaction together:
Quote:
But Robin Dunbar, a professor or evolutionary psychology at the University of Oxford and creator of the social brain hypothesis isn't entirely convinced by the new findings. Dunbar has researched the social brain hypothesis for two decades but wasn't involved in the new study. "They assume that social group size and diet are two alternative explanations for brain evolution," he told The Salt in an email. "They are not," he says, suggesting that both could contribute together.
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:48 AM
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Could you elaborate on this?
Regardless of the actual stimulus for it, there's really no question that humans are naturally much more carnivorous than our ape relatives. And cooking food, including meat, is part of the human adaptive suite, just like making and using tools. Cooking food is as "natural" for us as building dams is for beavers, and making honey is for bees. Considering this to not be "natural" is denying our evolutionary history.

Last edited by Colibri; 03-23-2019 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:56 AM
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Oh, my bad. The title of the thread is "Vegan blogger Yovana Mendoza Ayres". And essentially (if not actually) every post in the thread thus far is about vegans or the vegan diet. But you're right, everyone in the thread was really trying to make an unspoken larger point about health bloggers without the proper credentials.

I agree that the internet is full of shitty health advice. But this is definitely a thread about laughing at a (failed) vegan, not a thread about shitty health advice on the internet. The internet just loves to hate vegans, and cyclists, and... Nickelback.
Sure, people talk about more general topics about vegans and veganism. But none of them are pointing and laughing at people for merely being vegan. One vegan is being mocked, and it's the one who pushed a health diet that she herself couldn't stay upon for health reasons.

There just seem to be a lot of people who assume that vegans are being attacked, and didn't read the actual OP. It wasn't just you--that's why you weren't addressed directly.

I actually came in here to read more about this woman, but it seems you guys would rather hijack it to be yet another war on the war on vegans. That's boring and unnecessary. This is a left leaning board, FFS.
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:58 AM
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there was story on another vegan fitness bloger that had to give it up and was eating moderate portions of meat because she was losing bone mass and she admitted to it on her blog and she said the hate she was getting from her former comrades was worse than the anti vegan faction .....

Last edited by nightshadea; 03-23-2019 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 03-23-2019, 01:22 AM
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Regardless of the actual stimulus for it, there's really no question that humans are naturally much more carnivorous than our ape relatives. And cooking food, including meat, is part of the human adaptive suite, just like making and using tools. Cooking food is as "natural" for us as building dams is for beavers, and making honey is for bees. Considering this to not be "natural" is denying our evolutionary history.
Yes, of course. Your stating "Increased meat in the diet was one of the things that helped us evolve and support large brains." sounded like you were calling it a stimulus for larger brain development.
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:21 AM
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Nothing wrong with vegan food. The dinner I had last night qualified as vegan. I didn't sit down and think "hey, I'm going to eat vegan tonight", I ate something tastey that just happened to be vegan. Omnivores eat vegan food items all the time. The difference is that we're not trying to survive on JUST raw foods or just fruit.

Certainly a lot of people would benefit by reducing the amount of animal source foods in their diet, but some humans can't seem to wrap their heads around moderation.

This blogger was eating a diet more extreme than just veganism, and it endangered her health. But she couldn't admit it to her followers, nope, being a YouTube small-time celebrity was more important than anything else.

And that's what is mockable.

Last edited by Broomstick; 03-23-2019 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 03-23-2019, 04:03 AM
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Nothing wrong with vegan food. The dinner I had last night qualified as vegan. I didn't sit down and think "hey, I'm going to eat vegan tonight", I ate something tastey that just happened to be vegan.
There are vegans who'd disagree with you on that:
Quote:
Vegans exclude, as far as possible, all forms of animal exploitation from their lives, not just from their diets. They won't wear leather, wool or silk, for example, or use cosmetics that are tested on animals. Vegans will also avoid riding horses or camels, or paying for entertainment that involves animals, such as zoos, circuses, or aquariums. Vegans will also avoid companies who fund animal testing or exploitation. For example, lots of vegans avoided Thomas Cook because they funded trips to orca shows, a practice they ended in July 2018 after intense protesting.

Plant-based individuals might still participate in forms of animal outside of the things they eat. This would mean that they would be unable to call themselves vegan, though they might say that they follow a 'vegan diet'.
Veganism is a lifestyle, not just a diet, to some people, and unless you follow the whole megillah you're not vegan.

Frankly, all I hear is this:
Quote:
1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
I say truly unto you: Being a holier-than-thou asshole who Has Opinions about The Kids These Days is a hard, lonely path to walk.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:51 AM
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I'm being "forced" to eat more protein to help my feet heal. The also give me a nasty liquid protein--cloyingly sweet because nobody here can taste anything but sugar -- and I ask why they don't just give me a hardboiled egg and a packet of pepper. Not on my chart.
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Old 03-23-2019, 09:10 AM
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OTOH, my being mostly vegetarian the past year probably didn't help my feet.
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This seems to be pretty definitive.
posted by logicpunk at 10:07 AM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]
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Old 03-23-2019, 10:01 AM
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Could you elaborate on this?
I read a book that covered this hypothesis several years ago, and IIRC, the essence of it is that the human brain is a fuel hog. It takes a lot of calories to keep it going. Calories that couldnít be obtained through a life of foraging for fruits and vegetables.

So once our prototypes developed the ability to control fire and hunt in packs, meat became a new fuel source. Which became the precursor to a lot of evolutionary changes, like bigger brains. The new source of high caloric food also lead to other societal changes as foraging enough food to keep from starving to death was no longer necessarily a full time pursuit. Which then led to further evolutionary changes as our survival requirements changed.

Now, this is condensed from my memory of something I read a long time ago and Iím sure someone will come along and correct it.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 03-23-2019 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:03 AM
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It's a positive feedback loop. Bigger brains enable getting higher calorie foods like meat (through both social cooperation and took use) which help fuel bigger brains.
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:49 PM
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There are vegans who'd disagree with you on that:Veganism is a lifestyle, not just a diet, to some people, and unless you follow the whole megillah you're not vegan.
That's why I said I had vegan food for dinner, and not a vegan lifestyle for dinner.

I said what I ate would qualify as vegan - entirely without animal source items. I didn't say I was a vegan.
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Old 03-23-2019, 04:01 PM
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That's why I said I had vegan food for dinner, and not a vegan lifestyle for dinner.
And the vegans I cited to said that this is a contradiction in terms, that you had a plant-based dinner, and that you're an ignorant person they need to rant at some more.

As I'm not vegan, I won't rant at you any more over this, merely say that words tie into social and political groups in surprisingly deep ways.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:16 AM
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Such people are loons - you no more have to be a vegan to eat vegan food than you need to be Jewish to eat kosher food.
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Old 03-24-2019, 08:22 AM
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Such people are loons - you no more have to be a vegan to eat vegan food than you need to be Jewish to eat kosher food.
Exactly! People say the stupidest things, and I will pay as much attention to irrational vegans (which are a small fraction of vegans, most of whom are reasonable people) as I pay to the flat-earthers. Their criticisms of me for not adhering to their belief system carries no weight that I need consider.
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Old 03-24-2019, 09:00 AM
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Veganism is a lifestyle, not just a diet, to some people, and unless you follow the whole megillah you're not vegan.
Do you pocket mulch?
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Old 03-24-2019, 09:32 AM
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I recently made the mistake of telling someone that I eat a "plant-based" diet, because my diet is based on fruit, even though I add other things, including dairy and small amounts of meat. I quickly learned that "plant-based" now means "plant-only," and that it is the new way of saying vegan. I won't make that mistake again.
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Old 03-24-2019, 09:38 AM
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That's why I said I had vegan food for dinner, and not a vegan lifestyle for dinner.
Have we determined whether having vegans for dinner qualifies one for the vegan lifestyle?
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Old 03-24-2019, 11:52 AM
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Have we determined whether having vegans for dinner qualifies one for the vegan lifestyle?
I ate this one vegan . . .

oh, never mind. I'll get into trouble no matter how I complete that sentence.
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Old 03-24-2019, 01:21 PM
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And the vegans I cited to said that this is a contradiction in terms, that you had a plant-based dinner, and that you're an ignorant person they need to rant at some more.
Your cite describes the difference between a vegan lifestyle, and a vegetarian diet. It does not speak at all, as near as I can tell, to the appropriateness of referring to any particular meal as "vegan."
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