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Old 04-16-2019, 07:03 PM
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Please help me debunk that Muslims laughed and cheered as the Notre Dame Cathedral burned


I'm seeing this on Facebook. Please tell me this didn't happen, because I seriously don't believe it.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:10 PM
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Tell them that says it to put up or shut up, cite-wise.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:14 PM
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While I have no way of knowing exactly how every single one of the world's Muslims responded to the Notre Dame fire, the odds seem extremely high that any such report is merely Islamophobic made-up bullshit.

My favorite bit:
Quote:
10. This is not a video of people shouting people shouting "allah akbar," it's people shouting "allais, en avant" which in french means "go on, move along."
("Allais" there appears to be a typo for "allez".)
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:15 PM
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This is even a step more lazy than having us debunk a "friend's" YouTube video.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:19 PM
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It's always going to come down to someone posted that someone they know saw it happening, and that's their proof. How much more proof do you need? (rhetorical)

You can't convince people who want to believe something that it didn't happen. All you can do, in my opinion, is to keep saying or posting some version of "I have seen no evidence that this happened, including the anecdote of your friend's cousin's mother-in-law. With all the cell phone cameras around surely there must be verifiable video of this happening? No? Then you have no evidence and I don't believe things like this without evidence."

Of course, the other side is "so what?" If two or twenty or two hundred people who are allegedly Muslim clapped and cheered, so what? Did no-one else in the world have that reaction? Does that small number speak for all Muslims? Does that give everyone the right to hate Muslims because they are Muslims? Because that's what they really want, they already hate Muslims (because stupid reasons) and they just want validation and pats on the back for being hateful.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:33 PM
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Stupid ass Facebook implemented a choice of several emojis if you want to click something other than the like button a few years back and some users whose identities and religions are unverifiable and may have appeared to be Arabic/Muslim clicked "Funny" on the news.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:33 PM
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So, here's how I responded:

"I see no verifiable evidence of this from reputable news sources. This seems to me to be a made-up story by racists and bigots.
Can you provide a reputable cite for this bigotry?
Believe it or not Muslims are God loving pacifists. There are just as many Christians who are radicalized."
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:36 PM
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I await the reply with bated breath.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:39 PM
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The only proper response is to tell anyone spreading this nonsense is to "go fuck themselves".

Liberals really need to learn to stop trying to debate bad faith racist assholes. It is a waste of time and effort.

Jean Paul-Sartre comment about anti-semites easily applies to gross Islamophobia.

“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

Last edited by poweroftheglory; 04-16-2019 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:40 PM
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There are just as many Christians who are radicalized."
And some, I assume, are good people.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:43 PM
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And some, I assume, are good people.
Of course.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:43 PM
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...Does that small number speak for all Muslims? Does that give everyone the right to hate Muslims because they are Muslims? Because that's what they really want, they already hate Muslims (because stupid reasons) and they just want validation and pats on the back for being hateful.
^This.

In another thread someone posted links to stories about Shep Smith of Fox News shutting down an anti-Muslim conspiracy theorist; here's another account:

Quote:
Fox News anchor Shep Smith kicked a French media figure off the network today after he began conspiring about the supposed malicious cause of the fire at Notre Dame.
Smiths guest, Philippe Karsenty the deputy mayor of Neuilly-sur-Seine was at the scene at the start of the Paris fire.
...So, of course, you will hear the story of the political correctness which will tell you its probably an accident, but I dont think, Karsenty added before he was abruptly cut off by Smith.

Sir, sir, were not going to speculate of the cause of something that we dont know, shot back the Fox News anchor.
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/shep-smi...t-on-my-watch/

So not everyone is willing to let the hatred flow.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:44 PM
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I await the reply with bated breath.
I'm guessing she won't respond.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:21 PM
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^This.

In another thread someone posted links to stories about Shep Smith of Fox News shutting down an anti-Muslim conspiracy theorist; here's another account:

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/shep-smi...t-on-my-watch/

So not everyone is willing to let the hatred flow.
I don't know how I feel about Shep Smith. At any given time, I hold one or more of the following opinions:

* Smith should find a job on a respectable network where his decency would not be wasted.
* Smith is a villain for applying a veneer of legitimacy over the rotten core of Fox.
* I applaud Smith for sticking it out as the lone voice of sanity and trying to reach at least a few of the deplorables.
* It's all a game, and Smith would play whatever role he's paid to.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:34 PM
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I had this exchange with a friend yesterday:

Friend: Of course the conspiracy theorists are spinning that Jews & Muslims conspired to burn it down.
Me: Satanic Atheist Jews and Muslims, no doubt. I saw thousands of them dancing in the streets of New Jersey just now, celebrating it.

So there you have it: proof positive.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:43 PM
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At the same time as Notre Dame was burning, Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, reportedly the "third-holiest site in Islam" also experienced a fire. This has been widely under-reported in the West, unlike the Notre Dame fire (which, to be fair, seems to have been larger and more destructive).

This is the Palestinian President's reaction:

Quote:
RAMALLAH (Ma'an) -- Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and the Foreign Ministry expressed deep sorrow in two separate statements at the Notre Dame Cathedral massive fire in Paris, on Tuesday.

Abbas stressed his “solidarity and sympathy with France and its friendly people for this incident that is painful to all of us because of what this historic place means to civilization, to the history of France and to world heritage.”

The Palestinian Foreign Ministry said in a statement that the people of Palestine stand by France on this sad occasion and shares with it its sorrow as a result of the fire that affected an important international site.
Expressing sympathy for others' grief while dealing with your own troubles? Classy. Those Facebook dudes - not so much.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
I don't know how I feel about Shep Smith. At any given time, I hold one or more of the following opinions:

* Smith should find a job on a respectable network where his decency would not be wasted.
* Smith is a villain for applying a veneer of legitimacy over the rotten core of Fox.
* I applaud Smith for sticking it out as the lone voice of sanity and trying to reach at least a few of the deplorables.
* It's all a game, and Smith would play whatever role he's paid to.
Those are clearly all within the realm of fair reactions (though I lean toward the third, most of the time).
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:45 PM
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I'm seeing this on Facebook. Please tell me this didn't happen, because I seriously don't believe it.
Assuming this is a serious request, personally I'd tell them that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. There is no way to prove a negative, so it's on them to provide evidence to prove their assertion.

Oh, then (when they either provide nothing or some unrelated bullshit that is about something else) tell them to go fuck themselves. Sideways. With a rusty cactus.
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:41 PM
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I'm seeing this on Facebook. Please tell me this didn't happen, because I seriously don't believe it.
The best way to respond to fake news is not to acknowledge it...which isn't easy.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:16 PM
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The only actual "cheering" I've seen is coming from your typical teenagers and college students who want to sound all "edgy" and "shocking". The kind of thing you say when you want to make yourself look like a rebel, but you really only come off like a dumbass, and you'll end up being really, really embarrassed five years from now.

Most of it's just a bunch of nonsense posted over at Twitter or tumblr.
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:05 PM
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I can't prove something didn't happen.

Especially when I don't give a fuck.
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:13 PM
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I'm seeing this on Facebook. Please tell me this didn't happen, because I seriously don't believe it.
It didn't happen.
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:20 PM
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Politifact addresses one hoaxed photo of "Muslims laughing as Notre Dame burns" here: https://www.politifact.com/facebook-...dame-doctored/

Short answer: people with more expertise than me say its Photoshopped.
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:28 AM
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Politifact addresses one hoaxed photo of "Muslims laughing as Notre Dame burns" here: https://www.politifact.com/facebook-...dame-doctored/

Short answer: people with more expertise than me say its Photoshopped.
That's the picture being circulated. Thanks!
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:30 AM
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As an aside, I'm completely baffled by the morons (in the US or homegrown) who think for even a second that it was a terrorist act. Do these geniuses think that if people had done this on purpose (either a terrorist group, or even just a lone firebug), they would have waited even a picosecond before bragging about it either on social media or straight at the news ?! FFS. There's no such thing as "secret terrorism", that defeats the whole fucking purpose by fucking definition.
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Old 04-17-2019, 01:44 AM
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I simply unfriended anyone who posted that kind of shit. Eventually I got sick of Facebook.
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Old 04-17-2019, 02:16 AM
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As an aside, I'm completely baffled by the morons (in the US or homegrown) who think for even a second that it was a terrorist act. Do these geniuses think that if people had done this on purpose (either a terrorist group, or even just a lone firebug), they would have waited even a picosecond before bragging about it either on social media or straight at the news ?! FFS. There's no such thing as "secret terrorism", that defeats the whole fucking purpose by fucking definition.
That and they most likely would've done so when people were there, I'm guessing.
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:51 AM
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I simply unfriended anyone who posted that kind of shit. Eventually I got sick of Facebook.
This ^
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:31 AM
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I simply unfriended anyone who posted that kind of shit. Eventually I got sick of Facebook.
Agreed (hell, I never even got on Facebook to begin with), but that's regrettably part of the problem. This shit spreads and persists because eventually the people who spread this shit are only in contact with people who spread this kind of shit - and there are no competing voices, no opprobrium, no dissent and no correction. So it builds up, until e.g. Trump seems reasonable. This fuckery *should* be opposed and addressed.
Just, you know, not by me. I get exhausted just thinking about the tide of hateful stupidity sweeping the world.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:48 AM
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Haven't seen this yet, although I've seen the "Catholics aren't real Christians" crowd chime in already with their "Hooray! An idol factory burned down!" bullshit.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:49 AM
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Last week I saw a muslim guy drop his wallet in the street so I rushed to pick it up and return it to him. He thanked me and then warned me to stay away from Paris. I was shocked and asked him if there was going to be a terrorist attack. He said no, it just gets really overcrowded this time of year and the waiters are rude.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:10 AM
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Last week I saw a muslim guy drop his wallet in the street so I rushed to pick it up and return it to him. He thanked me and then warned me to stay away from Paris. I was shocked and asked him if there was going to be a terrorist attack. He said no, it just gets really overcrowded this time of year and the waiters are rude.
Racist nonsense. I've had nothing but excellent service from Parisian waiters.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:12 AM
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Racist nonsense. I've had nothing but excellent service from Parisian waiters.
OK, now that is bullshit.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:22 AM
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I'm seeing this on Facebook. Please tell me this didn't happen, because I seriously don't believe it.
If you're seeing that on Facebook, then "unfriend" is what you're looking for, not "debunk". IMO. Life is short, cut those bastards loose.

Last edited by bobot; 04-17-2019 at 05:22 AM.
  #35  
Old 04-17-2019, 05:54 AM
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OK, now that is bullshit.
Hey, c'mon, maybe he only stopped at one place and the waiter was newly arrived!
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:16 AM
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OK, now that is bullshit.
Maybe a little. But nonetheless, it is true that I have had some excellent service in Paris from professional waiters. The trick is to stay away from the tourist restaurants, be courteous to the waiters first, and don't burn down any major cathedrals while in town.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:23 AM
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Racist nonsense. I've had nothing but excellent service from Parisian waiters.
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OK, now that is bullshit.
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
Maybe a little. But nonetheless, it is true that I have had some excellent service in Paris from professional waiters. The trick is to stay away from the tourist restaurants, be courteous to the waiters first, and don't burn down any major cathedrals while in town.
When I was in Paris, I didnt experience any rudeness from service people.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:41 AM
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Last week I saw a muslim guy drop his wallet in the street so I rushed to pick it up and return it to him. He thanked me and then warned me to stay away from Paris. I was shocked and asked him if there was going to be a terrorist attack. He said no, it just gets really overcrowded this time of year and the waiters are rude.


touch.
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:49 AM
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I saw on the news that Michelle Obama was on a tour boat on the Seine at the time of the fire. I've been wondering how long it will be before the conspiracy theorists start spinning a story about how it is proof that it must be Obama's fault.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:00 AM
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You cannot reason with Facebook memes. Those who post them simply don't care about truth. Which is why we will see every year a post about Mars about to appear as large as the moon, about why yesterday was the "42 anniversary of the Vietnam war" (sic) and no mention anywhere, or a list of soldiers who died "last week" in Afghanistan and no mention in the media (actually more like 9 years ago). Truth does not matter. If a meme appeals to what they believe is true, they hit the share button. Even if it's something they shared five years ago.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:04 AM
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You could always counter with good news of donations pouring in.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20190417/don...0m-in-24-hours
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:12 AM
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There are just as many Christians who are radicalized."
Countering unsubstantiated claims with other unsubstantiated claims is not a good idea.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:30 AM
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As an aside, I'm completely baffled by the morons (in the US or homegrown) who think for even a second that it was a terrorist act. Do these geniuses think that if people had done this on purpose (either a terrorist group, or even just a lone firebug), they would have waited even a picosecond before bragging about it either on social media or straight at the news ?! FFS. There's no such thing as "secret terrorism", that defeats the whole fucking purpose by fucking definition.
Really? You're "completely baffled that anyone would think for a second" that it was terrorist related? In a major city ridden with racial and religious strife? That's a pretty naive stance to take (but what do I know, I'm just one of your mind baffling morons).

My first thought (after the initial shock and sadness)was " god, please don't let it turn out to be an act of terrorism" followed by "please don't let people assume it was and start hurting innocent people". I'm just glad that it did turn out to be an accident.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:37 AM
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Really? You're "completely baffled that anyone would think for a second" that it was terrorist related? In a major city ridden with racial and religious strife? That's a pretty naive stance to take (but what do I know, I'm just one of your mind baffling morons).

My first thought (after the initial shock and sadness)was " god, please don't let it turn out to be an act of terrorism" followed by "please don't let people assume it was and start hurting innocent people". I'm just glad that it did turn out to be an accident.
That, and there's an undercurrent of opinion that muslims all secretly wish for the downfall of the Christian west. Even if the Notre Dame fire wasn't a terrorist act, and there's of course no reason to think it was, muslims would cheer the destruction of such an icon of western oppression, or so, I guess, the thinking goes.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:48 AM
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My first thought (after the initial shock and sadness)was " god, please don't let it turn out to be an act of terrorism" followed by "please don't let people assume it was and start hurting innocent people". I'm just glad that it did turn out to be an accident.
I was worried it was someone from the Yellow Vest movement, since Macron was set to give a speech about those protests later that day. Theyve committed vandalism and arson recently after all, and the timing was suspicious. Luckily that doesnt seem to be the case.

It never occurred to me that it might be so-called Islamic terrorism (inspired by ISIS or whatever), probably because on the occasions that has occurred (in France or elsewhere) there were people targeted directly. Generally they want to kill people to spread terror. Just setting a building on fire seems really uncharacteristic.
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:09 AM
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Muslim extremists have not attacked Christianity, that I know of. They attacked the United States because of their opinions of our foreign policy. Not saying they're right, just that it had nothing to do with "our" religion. They attacked Charlie Hebdo because of their opinion of the depiction of Mohammad. But they have not attacked Christianity. Unless I'm missing something, which is of course possible.
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:15 AM
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OK, now that is bullshit.
Maybe I went to the wrong restaurants but I concur - I certainly didn't have bad service.
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:27 AM
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Maybe I went to the wrong restaurants but I concur - I certainly didn't have bad service.
It was a joke playing on stereotypes. The muslim guy is a terrorist and the french waiters are rude.
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:36 AM
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Muslim extremists have not attacked Christianity, that I know of. They attacked the United States because of their opinions of our foreign policy. Not saying they're right, just that it had nothing to do with "our" religion. They attacked Charlie Hebdo because of their opinion of the depiction of Mohammad. But they have not attacked Christianity. Unless I'm missing something, which is of course possible.
If you are talking about major terrorist attacks in the West maybe. ISIS and other extremist groups have certainly slaughtered Christians and other religious minorities in territory they control because of their religion.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...amp/ncna540706
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
If you are talking about major terrorist attacks in the West maybe. ISIS and other extremist groups have certainly slaughtered Christians and other religious minorities in territory they control because of their religion.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...amp/ncna540706
There are plenty of examples of Islamic terrorists targeting Christians (you can find examples of the converse as well if you look) that have nothing to do with the US. It's trivially easy to find them. I don't think this has anything to do with the Notre Dame Cathedral burning down though.
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