Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-19-2019, 03:00 PM
Dinsdale is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 18,068

Has Mueller Report changed your (or anyone's) minds?


Apologies if this is better suited to a different forum, but I wasn't really looking for a deep political discussion. Just an expression of opinions. I would've asked it as a poll if I could've readily come up with questions other than YES or NO.

This morning's Chicago Trib had an editorial that said something like, [paraphrased]"What you thought of Trump before Mueller is probably your opinion now."

The more I've thought of it, the more I think it is true. Whether you supported or disliked Trump, I haven't heard/read anything that impresses me as likely to change anyone's opinion.

Have any of you changed your opinions re: Trump as a result of the Mueller investigation/report?

Do you know anyone whose opinion has changed due to Mueller's efforts?

Are you aware of any polling data to try to measure this?

What types of people do you think MIGHT have their opinions changed?

With regard to the last question, I was trying to figure if there were some folk who did not feel terribly strongly for or against Trump. Some of those sort of folk might believe there was enough suggestion of wrongdoing to make them disfavor Trump more than before. Or such people might think Trump was wrongly persecuted and feel more favorably disposed towards him. But it doesn't seem as tho too many folk are in the middle WRT their opinion of Trump.

I readily admit that there are questions that remain unanswered, and I have no idea what efforts will be made in the future.
__________________
I used to be disgusted.
Now I try to be amused.
  #2  
Old 04-19-2019, 03:03 PM
MortSahlFan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: US
Posts: 321
No, and it seems if you don't agree or disagree with one stone, you won't have much of a conversation. The one consistent thing with me is that I can't stand the CIA, FBI, NSA, or any other alphabet soup lettered names.
  #3  
Old 04-19-2019, 03:42 PM
Der Trihs's Avatar
Der Trihs is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: California
Posts: 38,769
Since the Republicans haven't let it be released, it's not really likely to change the mind of even the most undecided person. And Trump is blatantly horrible enough that there's not really anything that could be there anyway to change people's minds. If it turned out he indulged in rape parties or cannibalism it wouldn't particularly shock me, nor would it turn his supporters against him.
  #4  
Old 04-19-2019, 03:50 PM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 4,298
Not seeing any change in approval/disapproval rating. It's been pretty stable for more than a year. There was a little dip during the government shutdown, but it soon recovered.
  #5  
Old 04-19-2019, 04:18 PM
Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 24,397
Mueller's report basically says there are a number of places where CONGRESS could charge Trump with Obstruction or other crimes, but refuses to make those judgments.

Trump attempted to destroy the probe (read: obstruct justice) a fairly large number of times, but was unsuccessful because other people refused to comply with his orders.

Trump clearing himself is like saying "Sure, I TRIED to commit murder a lot, but it never worked out like I wanted, so I'm not guilty of any crimes."

Bill Clinton was impeached for far less.
  #6  
Old 04-19-2019, 04:38 PM
Covfefe's Avatar
Covfefe is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,254
I am anti-Trump but kind of on the outside looking in when it comes to his standing pertaining to investigation. It was extremely demoralizing when he began openly denigrating Mueller's investigation in the summer of '17 and nothing has come out since to really outdo that nadir in my eyes.

I've been taking a wait and see approach. Given what is public, I don't know why so many are so preoccupied with following every bread crumb. Much that is being presently discussed, while awful and all, reeks of a less uniquely sinister, more mundane political tug of war at this point, and there is a sizable contingent that strikes me as in too deep in their biased pattern finding or conspiratorial musings where the issue of collusion is concerned. While Trump absolutely employed some bad characters on his campaign, I don't believe the electoral goals of the Russians were in sync with his.

I am not sure how I feel about obstruction; it's just like, he's gotten away with it for two years so why would that change now?

For the most part I'm waiting for 2020 or if SDNY turns up anything of a serious criminal nature, and have otherwise given up on caring. I certainly am in favor of this Congress attempting to investigate tax returns, emoluments, other things within reason. I honestly am apathetic toward talk of Mueller testifying before Congress, with regard to the notion of it leading anywhere.
  #7  
Old 04-19-2019, 04:41 PM
XT's Avatar
XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 35,000
It hasn't been released yet, so no idea what it actually says. Not sure how anyone's mind, at this point, would be changed. I was disappointed it wasn't a smoking gun that could be used against the president directly, but I'm still holding out hope there is stuff in there that can be used against him. But once it's released and can be assessed, THEN I'll make a final determination about where I stand on it, as I assume will everyone else.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #8  
Old 04-19-2019, 04:45 PM
HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,491
Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
It hasn't been released yet, so no idea what it actually says. ...
Are you saying this because portions were redacted, or have you just not been following the news for the last couple of days?
  #9  
Old 04-19-2019, 05:01 PM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 4,298
I don't think many of Trump's followers will read the report. Trump and the right-wing media have their alternative narrative of "complete exoneration", even after the release of the report, as well as the belief that the probe was part of a "deep state coup/conspiracy". Maybe the live TV testimonies of Mueller and others will have more effect than the report itself.

I think that Trump followers' worship of their leader is an article of faith that will resist all attempted interventions by reason, rationality and reality. Trump's "shoot someone on Fifth Avenue" comment was extraordinary, but not hyperbolic.
Quote:
"You know what else they say about my people? The polls, they say I have the most loyal people. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldnít lose any voters, okay? Itís like incredible."
  #10  
Old 04-19-2019, 05:11 PM
HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
I don't think many of Trump's followers will read the report. ...
I don't think many of his haters will "read the report" either. It's hundreds of pages long. Are you planning to read the whole thing from beginning to end?
  #11  
Old 04-19-2019, 05:12 PM
Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 24,397
Trump has already threatened (today) to retaliate against people with investigations and criminal charges, using the word 'Treason' in the process.
  #12  
Old 04-19-2019, 05:18 PM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 4,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I don't think many of his haters will "read the report" either. It's hundreds of pages long. Are you planning to read the whole thing from beginning to end?
Yes.
  #13  
Old 04-19-2019, 05:20 PM
begbert2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 12,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I don't think many of his haters will "read the report" either. It's hundreds of pages long. Are you planning to read the whole thing from beginning to end?
I think that Trump supporters won't be reading the report because their messiah and his interpreters have told them what's in it (complete exoneration!) and they don't need anything more than that.

I think that Trump "haters" won't read the (whole) report because somebody or another will quote enough of the salient bits at them which pretty flatly say that Trump is a criminal fuck who has escaped prosecution by Mueller only because it ain't Mueller's prerogative to prosecute him. Having heard those bits, they'll nod sagely, say to themselves "Yep, the report conforms with everything else that's been leaked so far - he's a criminal fuck who's only still president because the republicans in congress like crime". Then, having finished nodding, they'll go watch Netflix.

Myself I'm in the latter category. The Dope has provided me enough quotes and commentary to nod quite sagely. (Though, full disclosure, I don't have Netflix)
  #14  
Old 04-19-2019, 05:59 PM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 4,298
The report was somewhat opaque in that issues around the DoJ policy that they won't indict a sitting President meant there wasn't a dramatic "Mueller indicts Trump for obstruction" conclusion. Mueller, in the report, has laid out for Congress the case for charging obstruction against Trump. If the DoJ didn't have this policy, then Trump would currently be facing charges of obstruction of justice.

The Mueller probe indicted, convicted or got guilty pleas from 34 people and three companies, including top advisers to President Trump, Russian spies and hackers with ties to the Kremlin. Investigators work from the bottom of a criminal enterprise to the top, charging subordinates and hoping they will flip to provide evidence against people higher up in the chain. This did, however, mean that all these indictments were spread over many months, and perhaps lacked the impact in the public consciousness that they might have had if issued all at once.

Imagine if these 34 indictments were issued on the day the Mueller report was completed, with no Attorney General Barr to delay and obfuscate, and a recommendation of indictment for President Trump?

The impact would clearly have made it harder for Republicans to try and keep a straight face while they're doing what they're doing, and perhaps it would have changed the minds of some of the few on the fence, but I'm not convinced it would have had an effect on Trump's "base".
  #15  
Old 04-19-2019, 09:39 PM
rbroome is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3,361
The short answer is No.
In fact, pretty much nothing that can be said about Trump will change anyone's minds. Trump has been brilliant-unprecedently so, in insulating himself from criticism. Just look at his support in the Republican party. No politician in modern history (OK I can't think of one, perhaps I am wrong) has held onto his own party's support like Trump. He started out at 90% and it hasn't changed more than a couple of points since the election. A little thing like a widely anticipated report isn't going to change that.

Of course, the flip side of his strategy is that he has no hope of turning anyone who doesn't already support him to his side. I don't think. But he has a history of surprising everyone. So I could be wrong. But history has shown that no amount of bad news will sway any of his supporters. 3% + or -, but never more than that.
  #16  
Old 04-19-2019, 09:45 PM
Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 14,057
Well, my pre-Mueller view was that Trump was very corrupt. My post-Mueller is still that Trump is very corrupt, just perhaps not super-super corrupt.
  #17  
Old 04-19-2019, 11:59 PM
Gatopescado is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: on your last raw nerve
Posts: 21,777
Nope. Don't give a Flying Fuck about any of the Bullshit. I'm going skiing.
  #18  
Old 04-20-2019, 07:37 AM
ftg's Avatar
ftg is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Not the PNW :-(
Posts: 19,037
Another post pointing out how the Mueller Report has not been released yet.

Only when the actual report is published could anything about it change someone's opinion.
  #19  
Old 04-20-2019, 08:05 AM
monstro is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 20,277
I think things are so polarized now that people won't even admit their opinions have changed.

But it does seem to me that over the past few days I've been seeing more "I'm a Trump supporter, but..." kind of posts. That is heartening, even if it isn't exactly what I want to see.

My own opinion has a shifted. I've always hated Trump, but I wasn't foaming at the mouth at the idea of impeachment before this week. Now? I'm not going to vote for any Democrat who doesn't jump on the impeachment by the end of the month. I don't care if it throws the country in turmoil and leaves us with the limp dick known as Mike Pence. The orange tumor must be lanced right fucking now.
  #20  
Old 04-20-2019, 09:34 AM
HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,491
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstro View Post
... I'm not going to vote for any Democrat who doesn't jump on the impeachment by the end of the month. ...
Does this pledge apply to the 2020 general election?
  #21  
Old 04-20-2019, 09:36 AM
monstro is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 20,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Does this pledge apply to the 2020 general election?
Yes, that is what I'm talking about.
  #22  
Old 04-20-2019, 10:13 AM
Ruken is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 7,233
I don't think I could feel worse about him. And it certainly didn't improve my opinion. So no.
  #23  
Old 04-20-2019, 10:36 AM
FairyChatMom's Avatar
FairyChatMom is offline
I'm nice, dammit!
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Southern Merrylande
Posts: 41,141
It didn't switch me from one side to the other, but it certainly changed the way I look at his entire presidency - he's more of a bastard than I'd thought and apparently even his skeevy picks for advisors, etc, had a certain amount of conscience.

I'm only sorry his head didn't explode and relieve us all of his existence.
  #24  
Old 04-20-2019, 11:30 AM
Loach's Avatar
Loach is offline
The Central Scrutinizer
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pork Roll/Taylor Ham
Posts: 25,227
Nothing has changed for me. I thought it would make him look bad but not lead to him losing the presidency. Still feel that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monstro View Post
I think things are so polarized now that people won't even admit their opinions have changed.

But it does seem to me that over the past few days I've been seeing more "I'm a Trump supporter, but..." kind of posts. That is heartening, even if it isn't exactly what I want to see.

My own opinion has a shifted. I've always hated Trump, but I wasn't foaming at the mouth at the idea of impeachment before this week. Now? I'm not going to vote for any Democrat who doesn't jump on the impeachment by the end of the month. I don't care if it throws the country in turmoil and leaves us with the limp dick known as Mike Pence. The orange tumor must be lanced right fucking now.
But it wonít lead to Mike Pence. It will lead to no conviction by the Senate. Do you still put that much importance on what will just be a symbolic gesture by the House?
  #25  
Old 04-20-2019, 12:52 PM
monstro is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 20,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
Nothing has changed for me. I thought it would make him look bad but not lead to him losing the presidency. Still feel that way.







But it won’t lead to Mike Pence. It will lead to no conviction by the Senate. Do you still put that much importance on what will just be a symbolic gesture by the House?
Symbolic gestures are still meaningful. I don't want to live in a society no one will stand up to a blatantly corrupt politician just because doing so would be a symbolic gesture.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
__________________
What the hell is a signature?
  #26  
Old 04-20-2019, 02:01 PM
Ann Hedonia's Avatar
Ann Hedonia is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I don't think many of his haters will "read the report" either. It's hundreds of pages long. Are you planning to read the whole thing from beginning to end?
I have. I don’t like news summaries, they miss good stuff. Documents don’t scare me. I read every indictment cover to cover.

It really was pretty much what I expected. Some of the crazier rumors were disproven, the bulk of the reporting was confirmed. And I feel pretty strongly that it’s hard to discuss it honestly if you haven’t read it.

But it’s a stunning narrative of horrible and dishonest behavior. The man treated his campaign staff like contestants on a reality show. His staff was guided and goaded into participating stupid game show quests like “find Hillary’s emails” or “ set up a meeting with a prominent Russian”. All to try to curry favor with the boss.
But they constantly sabotaged each other’s efforts, too. —

I do find it very disillusioning, though. Some small part of me thought that reading the whole account in narrative form would wake people up to just how outrageously wrong, self-dealing and anti-American their behavior was.

But I guess not. It’s sad that half the country won’t hold the President to the same standard of decency that they expect from an 8 year old child.

BTW, most of the Harm to Ongoing Matter redactions seem to center around Roger Stones ongoing case. I figured this out because his name was redacted from publicly available Trump quotes.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 04-20-2019 at 02:03 PM.
  #27  
Old 04-20-2019, 02:15 PM
Hari Seldon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Trantor
Posts: 12,709
No, it certainly didn't change my opinion of Trump. There is nothing I can imagine that would. One thing is clear is that it is false that Mueller drew no conclusion about obstruction. He did, but left it up to congress to act on it. They won't and I think they are right not to. What would you think of a prosecutor who indicted someone just to harass him when he was absolutely certain there was no chance of conviction? As long as the Republican party lies supine at the feet of agent orange, there is just no point. Put all your resources into 2020.
  #28  
Old 04-20-2019, 06:39 PM
DorkVader's Avatar
DorkVader is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: boise idaho
Posts: 2,385
Well, I didn't fully read the report yet, but I did do a slow preliminary scan of it.
I'm sort of like Ann Hedonia, you miss out on things if you stick just to summaries and conclusions.

The bits that jumped out, that I actually read haven't really changed my opinion of trump as president. It was never a high opinion to start with.
I plan on a more thorough reading tomorrow sometime.
__________________
L. Californicus Deserticola Sithae
  #29  
Old 04-20-2019, 06:51 PM
SamuelA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,117
Honestly, in some ways the Mueller report raises my opinion's of the President's capabilities. He is not the drooling moron imbecile that I imagine him to be, but was engaging in complex behavior to obstruct justice. But yes, Mueller didn't find a smoking gun. No wiretap of him reporting to Putin and openly plotting treason, no "we got him" moment. He's a dirtbag but we all know it.

I think most of his supporters, the ones who are not morons, think he's a dirtbag as well, they just support him because the things he is for are in their interests.
  #30  
Old 04-20-2019, 09:09 PM
rbroome is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstro View Post
I think things are so polarized now that people won't even admit their opinions have changed.

But it does seem to me that over the past few days I've been seeing more "I'm a Trump supporter, but..." kind of posts. That is heartening, even if it isn't exactly what I want to see.

My own opinion has a shifted. I've always hated Trump, but I wasn't foaming at the mouth at the idea of impeachment before this week. Now? I'm not going to vote for any Democrat who doesn't jump on the impeachment by the end of the month. I don't care if it throws the country in turmoil and leaves us with the limp dick known as Mike Pence. The orange tumor must be lanced right fucking now.
We all acknowledge that Trump will not be removed from office. Absent conclusive proof that he is working for Putin, Trump will run for re-election in 2020 as the incumbent. I am convinced, and for evidence I cite Clinton's popularity after the Senate trial, that an impeachment and trial would enhance Trump's popularity and increase the chance of his being re-elected.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stori...eachment.poll/

Given that possibility, do you still want the House to vote articles of impeachment? Impeachment won't do anything positive. It can only hurt. Why do you want that?
  #31  
Old 04-20-2019, 09:50 PM
guizot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: An East Hollywood dingbat
Posts: 8,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinsdale View Post
The more I've thought of it, the more I think it is true. Whether you supported or disliked Trump, I haven't heard/read anything that impresses me as likely to change anyone's opinion.
Do you think that was the purpose of the report? Just to change opinions?

Of course it's not going to change opinions about Trump. Everyone either knows he's a two-bit, bullshitting shyster, or is too stupid to understand what's in the report anyway.
  #32  
Old 04-21-2019, 08:15 AM
ftg's Avatar
ftg is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Not the PNW :-(
Posts: 19,037
FWIW, here's an LA Times page showing the report with little thumbnails so you can get an idea as to how much some pages are redacted. (Warning: lots of thumbnails.)

One really common reason is due to "ongoing investigation" which raises a bunch of questions about who is being investigated for what and (most importantly) by whom?

If there's that much ongoing investigation, then nobody's been exonerated.
  #33  
Old 04-21-2019, 08:32 AM
monstro is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 20,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbroome View Post
We all acknowledge that Trump will not be removed from office. Absent conclusive proof that he is working for Putin, Trump will run for re-election in 2020 as the incumbent. I am convinced, and for evidence I cite Clinton's popularity after the Senate trial, that an impeachment and trial would enhance Trump's popularity and increase the chance of his being re-elected.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stori...eachment.poll/

Given that possibility, do you still want the House to vote articles of impeachment? Impeachment won't do anything positive. It can only hurt. Why do you want that?
Obviously I don't believe impeachment will only hurt. I certainly don't believe it will hurt more than letting the shitshow in the WH fling feces at everything we're supposed to hold dear.
  #34  
Old 04-21-2019, 09:17 AM
UnwittingAmericans is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbroome View Post
We all acknowledge that Trump will not be removed from office. Absent conclusive proof that he is working for Putin, Trump will run for re-election in 2020 as the incumbent. I am convinced, and for evidence I cite Clinton's popularity after the Senate trial, that an impeachment and trial would enhance Trump's popularity and increase the chance of his being re-elected.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stori...eachment.poll/

Given that possibility, do you still want the House to vote articles of impeachment? Impeachment won't do anything positive. It can only hurt. Why do you want that?
I don't buy the premise that this is the same situation or that the same thing will occur.

There was a vernacular version of the Barr summation that was obviously accepted by a majority of people in the Clinton case. And that summation, in the parlance of the time, was "lying about a blow job." Clinton's approval rating before impeachment was 63%.

There's no particular reason to expect the same reaction in the case of Trump. If the Clinton thing happened today, I doubt the reaction would be the same as it was then. This whole thing is not subject to the laws of physics.
  #35  
Old 04-21-2019, 09:41 AM
kanicbird is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 19,400
To me it shows perhaps 'patchable' cracks in trumps armor, which means that Trump surrounds himself with people ultra loyal to him, willing to take a fall and be cut off from Trump (which if they are still loyal, will be taken care of from a apparent distance from Trump). It shows that some of these people who have left the inner circle may be willing to talk, Trump now knows who they are. I'm sure Trump will work to patch that crack as best he can, which I assume is with gifting money jobs and power positions which appear to not be related to Trump, and also gaslighting, attacks on health perhaps life, and threats, loss of jobs, financial hardships to those people and their family and pets, whatever persuasion is needed to fix those leaks.

So with this report, I am of the new mindset that Trump is going to be able to carry out his evil plans successfully, be able to suppress opposition and be reelected.

Last edited by kanicbird; 04-21-2019 at 09:42 AM.
  #36  
Old 04-21-2019, 09:49 AM
Ann Hedonia's Avatar
Ann Hedonia is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by ftg View Post
FWIW, here's an LA Times page showing the report with little thumbnails so you can get an idea as to how much some pages are redacted. (Warning: lots of thumbnails.)

One really common reason is due to "ongoing investigation" which raises a bunch of questions about who is being investigated for what and (most importantly) by whom?

If there's that much ongoing investigation, then nobody's been exonerated.
Im 99% percent sure, after doing a little detective work, that the bulk of the harm to ongoing matter redactions are related to Roger Stones case, which hasn’t gone to trial.

This supposition is partly based on the location of the HOM redactions, the majority which appear around the WikiLeaks narrative. And they ( in the obstruction section) redacted Stones name out of one Trump quote with HOM. But the full quote was widely reported at the time and it was trivially easy to find the unredacted quote.

I don’t think there’s any great mystery there.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 04-21-2019 at 09:51 AM.
  #37  
Old 04-21-2019, 07:06 PM
snoe is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia View Post
Im 99% percent sure, after doing a little detective work, that the bulk of the harm to ongoing matter redactions are related to Roger Stones case, which hasnít gone to trial....

I donít think thereís any great mystery there.
Agreed on the most HOM=Stone suspicion, by and large. Although there's a bit too many of those redactions in the social media section for them all to be about Stone's case. Right? I mean, it's a redaction, who knows.
---

I've read most of the report, skipping the passages on some eye-glazing characters like Carter Page and The Professor, as well as big chunks of legal argument. It did change my mind on a couple of small issues:

1) I was surprised by the degree to which Trump avoided meeting any Russians himself in 2016, to Putin's evident dismay (see p 146). This seemed ... surprisingly smart and self-aware. On Trump's part.

1a) Also surprised by the "I'm fucked" comment by Trump. I guess he's snowballed me with the bravado act -- on some level I didn't think he knew how guilty he was/is. There is something going on behind the persona, and it's still got some cunning.

2) I was surprised by some of the people who talked to the OSC in ways that hurt their self-interest. Trump lackeys, of course, but particularly the Russians! I'm very curious about Petr Aven's frank discussion of the oligarch summit. How did he feel safe discussing that?
3) The report's tone of near-exoneration on two topics surprised me: the changes to the GOP platform and Sessions's misstatement to Congress. Always found those fishy, especially the first. Of course, before we go giving these crooks the benefit of the doubt, it's worth remembering that the President was obstructing justice all the time. Who knows what they successfully hid?
  #38  
Old 04-21-2019, 09:28 PM
rbroome is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnwittingAmericans View Post
I don't buy the premise that this is the same situation or that the same thing will occur.

There was a vernacular version of the Barr summation that was obviously accepted by a majority of people in the Clinton case. And that summation, in the parlance of the time, was "lying about a blow job." Clinton's approval rating before impeachment was 63%.

There's no particular reason to expect the same reaction in the case of Trump. If the Clinton thing happened today, I doubt the reaction would be the same as it was then. This whole thing is not subject to the laws of physics.
And I will point out that Trump's approval rating has held constant at approximately 90% of Republicans. Republicans and hard-core conservatives are the only people who will vote for Trump regardless of the report. An impeachment will increase the determination of his base to vote for him. That will increase the chances of Trump winning re-election.
  #39  
Old 04-21-2019, 11:02 PM
DorkVader's Avatar
DorkVader is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: boise idaho
Posts: 2,385
I don't mean to sound jokey, but having read parts of the report (yeah I know i know) the only thing that comes to mind is a quote from Batman "this town needs an enema"
__________________
L. Californicus Deserticola Sithae
  #40  
Old 04-22-2019, 05:36 AM
Royal Nonesutch is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by guestchaz View Post
I don't mean to sound jokey, but having read parts of the report (yeah I know i know) the only thing that comes to mind is a quote from Batman "this town needs an enema"
I've got the bourbon, can you bring the buttermilk?
  #41  
Old 04-22-2019, 09:44 AM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 4,298
Trump's approval rating is showing the beginning of a dip. Will be interesting to see over coming days and weeks whether it will be a meaningful or significant one.
  #42  
Old 04-22-2019, 10:39 AM
DCnDC's Avatar
DCnDC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Dueling Grounds
Posts: 11,852

Has Mueller Report changed your (or anyone's) minds?


Nope. I still think Trump and his entire family and administration are worthless pieces of shit, and nothing in the Mueller report makes a compelling argument that they're not.

In fact, it pretty much entirely confirms it.
  #43  
Old 04-22-2019, 10:51 AM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 22,349
Not exactly "changed" but convinced me we need to work for impeachment instead of "letting the voters decide".

Frankly, they decided in 2018.
  #44  
Old 04-22-2019, 12:39 PM
RitterSport's Avatar
RitterSport is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I don't think many of his haters will "read the report" either. It's hundreds of pages long. Are you planning to read the whole thing from beginning to end?
How about you? Did it change your mind? For example, do you now agree that there was collusion between the campaign and Russia using the definition of "collusion" that you provided in the other thread? Did you think there was collusion before?
  #45  
Old 04-22-2019, 12:47 PM
HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,491
Quote:
Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
How about you? Did it change your mind? For example, do you now agree that there was collusion between the campaign and Russia using the definition of "collusion" that you provided in the other thread? Did you think there was collusion before?
I haven't finished reading the whole report yet, but the short answers are "no", "no", and "no".
  #46  
Old 04-22-2019, 01:11 PM
RitterSport's Avatar
RitterSport is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I haven't finished reading the whole report yet, but the short answers are "no", "no", and "no".
I'm pretty surprised, given your definition and all the evidence provided in the other thread. I'd love to hear your reasoning, but not here, since it would be a hijack. I'd rather see it over there -- maybe respond to some of the posters who laid out what they saw was the case for collusion from your definition.

Sorry about the hijack. I'll drop it now.

As to the OP, I'd say that my mind is not changed, because much of what was in the report was already out there. The report mostly just confirmed facts that had been anonymously sourced rumors before.

Oh, one place where it was changed by the report -- I thought the president had "one of the great memories of all time", since has stated such. However, in his response to Mueller's questions, he repeatedly stated that he couldn't recall or couldn't remember. So, now, I may be doubting that he has one of the great memories. However, I'm sure he's still a stable genius.
  #47  
Old 04-22-2019, 01:19 PM
HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,491
Quote:
Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
I'm pretty surprised, given your definition and all the evidence provided in the other thread. I'd love to hear your reasoning, but not here, since it would be a hijack. I'd rather see it over there -- maybe respond to some of the posters who laid out what they saw was the case for collusion from your definition. ...
Sure, but it'll probably be a lengthy post that will take me some time to compose. Maybe I'll have time for it this evening.
  #48  
Old 04-22-2019, 01:50 PM
madmonk28 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 12,125
The report hardened my opinion. Before the report, I felt that there was little chance of reconciliation in American politics. The report confirmed for me that there is not a chance of reconciliation. Trumpists collaborated with an authoritarian regime to attack our democracy and continue to do so, in fact, when confronted with that fact, the Trumpists on this board pretty much shrug and say it's no big deal. There is no hope that we will be a single country again and our future is bleak.
  #49  
Old 04-22-2019, 10:14 PM
Capn Carl is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
The report hardened my opinion. Before the report, I felt that there was little chance of reconciliation in American politics. The report confirmed for me that there is not a chance of reconciliation. Trumpists collaborated with an authoritarian regime to attack our democracy and continue to do so, in fact, when confronted with that fact, the Trumpists on this board pretty much shrug and say it's no big deal. There is no hope that we will be a single country again and our future is bleak.
Trump annoys, embarrasses, and alienates about 10% of Republicans. Neither party can afford to do that to 10% of its voters. It causes them to stay home on Election Day, and it causes a few of them to vote for Dems. On top of that, all the demographic trends are going against the Republicans. I see a bright future ahead, and Trump is making it happen sooner.
  #50  
Old 04-23-2019, 05:50 AM
madmonk28 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 12,125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capn Carl View Post
Trump annoys, embarrasses, and alienates about 10% of Republicans. Neither party can afford to do that to 10% of its voters. It causes them to stay home on Election Day, and it causes a few of them to vote for Dems. On top of that, all the demographic trends are going against the Republicans. I see a bright future ahead, and Trump is making it happen sooner.
Another way to read that is that 90% of Republicans are ok with white nationalism, authoritarianism, collaborating with hostile nations to attack our country, children in cages and voter suppression. Never mind the fact that we are about ten years out from climate changesís tipping point and have completely disassembled our environmental protections and given the permanent and catastrophic polarization of our politics, even if we can Trump, out of office the next president will be seen as illegitimate no matter who s/he is by half the country, which means that we will almost certainly spend 2020-2024 not doing anything about climate change. So be the time we have finally got Trump out of our system, we will have about one year to come up with a global action plan on climate change and realize it. So yeah the future is super bright.

Iím so glad I didnít have kids.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017