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Old 04-23-2019, 10:48 AM
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The GOP is the party of Authoritarian Bullies and Gaslighting now


I originally posted this in the Elections thread on the Mueller Report.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=651

Oddly no conservatives/Trump defenders replied or tried to dispute any of this. So I decided to make it a thread. Tell me what is incorrect about this assessment:

The Republicans are the party of authoritarian bullies now. It's no longer about trying to sell their ideas or convince people to agree with them, its simply about forcing their will on the country now. They know they can't win in an honest debate about what's going on, so they are just about using their power to hang on to power regardless of what the people want or what is right or wrong. They have the power and the libs don't and they are going to just keep bullying and gaslighting because that's all they have now. What are their policy proposals at this point? What actual things are they running on other than the fearmongering that the liberals are trying to destroy *our* America and we must do anything to destroy them first. They are trying to keep their base deceived and angry and afraid, and that's all that matters. Governing? Nah. Winning legitimate political debates? Nah. Avoiding hypocrisy? Nah. Bullying and gaslighting and playing keep-away with the power of the state? Sounds good.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:31 AM
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Don't they have to convince people to agree with them in order to get the votes to stay in power?
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:35 AM
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How are the GOP trying to convince anyone outside of their hardcore base to agree with them these days?
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:39 AM
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How are the GOP trying to convince anyone outside of their hardcore base to agree with them these days?
Apparently, it doesn't take more than their hardcore base to get re-elected. So why would they?
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:44 AM
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Apparently, it doesn't take more than their hardcore base to get re-elected. So why would they?
Right, so that's exactly what I'm saying. They don't have to argue in good faith with those of us on the other side because it doesn't matter. That's why it feels like arguing with a brick wall all the time because they don't care, they don't feel any need to convince anyone of anything. They have the power, and fuck you if you don't.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:51 AM
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Right, so that's exactly what I'm saying. They don't have to argue in good faith with those of us on the other side because it doesn't matter. That's why it feels like arguing with a brick wall all the time because they don't care, they don't feel any need to convince anyone of anything. They have the power, and fuck you if you don't.
Perhaps there are a lot of people, outside of the hard-core base, that just don't think things are bad enough to put forth the effort?
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:01 PM
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Don't they have to convince people to agree with them in order to get the votes to stay in power?
Not a majority, if they fix enough elections and gerrymander.

The current U.S. government is mostly Republican, but in the elections that have delivered the existing President, Representatives and Senators, most votes were for Democrats. Throw in the ridiculous shenanigans at the state level ,which are almost entirely Republican - the Georgia gubernatorial election of 2018 can really not even be called an actual election - and it's pretty clear David Frum is right:

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If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy.
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:06 PM
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Right, so that's exactly what I'm saying. They don't have to argue in good faith with those of us on the other side because it doesn't matter.
Nobody who posted as you did in the Elizabeth Warren "free college" thread in GD has any right to complain about bad faith argumentation.

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Old 04-23-2019, 12:09 PM
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Nobody who posted as you did in the Elizabeth Warren "free college" thread in GD has any right to complain about bad faith argumentation.

Regards,
Shodan
So you don't disagree with the OP then? Or are you just threadshitting?

You can argue with me about that there. Where it's relevant to the discussion. Instead of trying to derail this thread.

Unless you have something to say in response to this OP I will decline to respond to you further here.
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:22 PM
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So you don't disagree with the OP then? Or are you just threadshitting?

You can argue with me about that there. Where it's relevant to the discussion. Instead of trying to derail this thread.

Unless you have something to say in response to this OP I will decline to respond to you further here.
I'm responding to the OP. You are being hypocritical. All this shit about the other side not arguing in bad faith is projection.

Obviously.

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Old 04-23-2019, 12:35 PM
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I'm responding to the OP. You are being hypocritical. All this shit about the other side not arguing in bad faith is projection.

Obviously.

Regards,
Shodan
I stand by everything I said in that other thread, and would be happy to discuss further with you there. Where it would be on topic and not threadshitting.

So does anyone have a response to this OP? Anyone care to dispute it?
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:06 PM
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Don't they have to convince people to agree with them in order to get the votes to stay in power?
Do they?
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:20 PM
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Politicians will say and promise anything to get in and keep power. This is not a Republican or Democrat thing. It’s a nature of power seeking thing. That’s why the whole US government is set up with checks and balances.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:23 PM
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Politicians will say and promise anything to get in and keep power. This is not a Republican or Democrat thing. It’s a nature of power seeking thing. That’s why the whole US government is set up with checks and balances.
Sure, but the parties aren't the same in every single way. In the present, the GOP, in terms of Republican elected office-holders, are doing much more to fight for authoritarianism, against the rule of law, for sexism/misogyny/bigotry, and many more things that are morally wrong, then elected office-holders in the Democratic party. It's reasonable to criticize the Republican party for this.

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Old 04-23-2019, 01:30 PM
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Sure, but the parties aren't the same in every single way. In the present, the GOP, in terms of Republican elected office-holders, are doing much more to fight for authoritarianism, against the rule of law, for sexism/misogyny/bigotry, and many more things that are morally wrong, then elected office-holders in the Democratic party. It's reasonable to criticize the Republican party for this.
And the Republicans have a dreadful anti science wing letís not forget that. However, pandering and deception is a huge part of the game in a democracy and people are not doing themselves any favors by ignoring that fundamental issue.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:39 PM
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Politicians will say and promise anything to get in and keep power. This is not a Republican or Democrat thing. Itís a nature of power seeking thing. Thatís why the whole US government is set up with checks and balances.
Why is it you never show up when the right wing speaks to tell them that "both sides do it"? This fake "fence sitting" crap is old, troll.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:42 PM
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Why is it you never show up when the right wing speaks to tell them that "both sides do it"? This fake "fence sitting" crap is old, troll.
Listen dummy, when there are 50 in the hive you donít need the 2-3 remaining non hive mind members of this board to join the colony.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:44 PM
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Listen dummy, when there are 50 in the hive you donít need the 2-3 remaining non hive mind members of this board to join the colony.
What message board do you go to to bothsides the right wing?

Can you share some of your posts from there so we can see that you are fair and that you actually are criticizing the other side for what you say both sides do?
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:45 PM
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And the Republicans have a dreadful anti science wing letís not forget that. However, pandering and deception is a huge part of the game in a democracy and people are not doing themselves any favors by ignoring that fundamental issue.
I don't think that part is going away, but we should be critical when that pandering and deception is in the service of awful things like authoritarianism, lawlessness, anti-science, etc.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:45 PM
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What message board do you go to to bothsides the right wing?

Can you share some of your posts from there so we can see that you are fair and that you actually are criticizing the other side for what you say both sides do?
Huh? I donít post on a predominately right wing board. I post here.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:46 PM
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Listen dummy, when there are 50 in the hive you donít need the 2-3 remaining non hive mind members of this board to join the colony.
Thanks for showing on which side of the fence you actually reside.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:46 PM
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And the Republicans have a dreadful anti science wing letís not forget that. However, pandering and deception is a huge part of the game in a democracy and people are not doing themselves any favors by ignoring that fundamental issue.


But there's a big difference between pandering and deception, and what the GOP is doing: Gerrymandering, voter suppression, lame duck legislatures passing laws to limit the powers of offices that were just lost, refusing to consider judicial nominations, and the like.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:48 PM
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Huh? I donít post on a predominately right wing board. I post here.
So you don't bothsides both sides.

Ok noted.

Consider that the last response from me to your bothsiderism crap then.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:54 PM
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Come to think of it, I don't recall ever seeing this "both sides do it" response to a right-wing post on this message board.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:57 PM
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Thanks for showing on which side of the fence you actually reside.
The non hive side. I thought that was obvious.
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:05 PM
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The non hive side. I thought that was obvious.
Don't both sides do this "hive mind" crap you are blathering about?
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:06 PM
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The non hive side. I thought that was obvious.
You don't think the foxnewsbreitbartosphere isn't a hive? If we're using that term?

Come the hell on. Its a damn feedback loop with the tweeter in chief right now.

And all the press about the 2020 elections is about how disjointed the democrats are.

GTFO with that horseshit.
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:06 PM
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There's pandering, and then there is demagogy. I will cop to both sides over-promising, if you want to call that pandering, but there is a wide gulf between the parties when it comes to demagogy. Also where the dirty, anti-democratic tricks are concerned.

Not sure what took the OP to figure out what he says here today. It has been obvious for some time. But maybe we should grab some popcorn, watch a few more iterations of "the Mueller report contains no evidence of crime, and besides it is bullshit and also not a product of the Justice Dept. but ANGRY DEMOCRATS", and watch our conservative friends nod along under the influence of whatever it is that has so enthralled them.
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:10 PM
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Airbeck, have you ever read 1984?
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:13 PM
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Don't both sides do this "hive mind" crap you are blathering about?
Yes they do. Good point. Which is why, as Iíve often said, I donít post at right wing sites. Being part of a hive mind has no appeal to me.
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:18 PM
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Yes, but it's been a long time. The OP was written in the Mueller report thread as a response to those types of "arguments" we kept seeing from the right. It was obvious that they weren't trying to convince anyone of their position and the attitude was basically oh yeah well we have the power to prevent any consequences and stay in power, so fuck you.

I've thought it for years, but finally put it into words. And oddly nobody on the right in that thread ever responded. I got a few hearty agreements though.

I still don't really see anyone on that side actually disputing what I said. Just calling me a hypocrite or spouting that bothsides bullshit.
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:24 PM
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Yes they do. Good point. Which is why, as Iíve often said, I donít post at right wing sites. Being part of a hive mind has no appeal to me.
And you get treated better here then I would at any of those right-wing sites where their hive minds dispose of those who differ from them. BTW, if we were really of a hive-mind here how long do you think your sorry ass would last here? The only way you can kicked out this place is if you break the same rules the rest of us have to follow, so your claim that just because there are more of us than there are of you we must be a "hive-mind" rings somewhat hollow.
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:27 PM
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And you get treated better here then I would at any of those right-wing sites where their hive minds dispose of those who differ from them. BTW, if we were really of a hive-mind here how long do you think your sorry ass would last here? The only way you can kicked out this place is if you break the same rules the rest of us have to follow, so your claim that just because there are more of us than there are of you we must be a "hive-mind" rings somewhat hollow.
Thatís probably true. Youíd probably be booted off of most right wing sites. I wouldnít know for sure though. Just like Iíd probably be booted off of most left wing sites. That doesnít mean that there isnít a dominant hivemind here. It just means that the moderators for a good amount of time arenít completely influenced by the hive.
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:30 PM
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I was just reading 1984 last week. Best thing I have read in years, for being so insightful on so many levels besides its own nightmare. Anyway, I was struck by how Big Brother seems to differ from today's GOP mostly in degree. There is the same deception and lack of any values at all (remember how important the debt used to be to them? Our NATO allies? Family values? Hell, even Reagan talked about the Shining City on the Hill). And if you want to see some doublethink, just tune into any episode of Hannity, or listen to Sarah Sanders, or check out the Twitter feed if the POTUS. It is pretty creepy.
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:32 PM
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Right wing idea of a hive mind: "You guys all believe 2 + 2 = 4!! You tend to draw the same conclusions from commonly available evidence!!"
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:48 PM
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The GOP have now officially declared that they are open for sale to any foreign buyer. Foreign governments, openly hostile or not, can now work openly with Republican politicians, even commit criminal acts on their behalf, and it's all OK.

I would not be surprised in the near future to see a shift in Republican policy towards Iran, as long as the Iranian government uses their assets to attack Democrats, and hack into their information systems.

This seems to be GOP policy now.
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:53 PM
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Right wing idea of a hive mind: "You guys all believe 2 + 2 = 4!! You tend to draw the same conclusions from commonly available evidence!!"
"Why does nobody here post that 2+2 = 5? You people are all just the same. And you can't admit that 5 is larger than 4, so it must be better. All we want is to make math great again, and you people are stopping that.

Anyway, both sides do it. So you guys are wrong. I'm just being fair, right?"
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:12 PM
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They're strongly tied to an oligarchy, and this is the playbook. I'm pretty sure that the very same oligarch is now trying to subvert the young left through Internet Marxists just like he took over the young right with Internet Nazis.

I'm not sure whether it's Putin or some venture capitalist in San Francisco, but on sites that skew younger than this I can see themótrying very, very hard to undermine the very idea of democracy.
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:42 PM
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Sure, Iíll take the bait:

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What actual things are they running on other than the fearmongering that the liberals are trying to destroy *our* America and we must do anything to destroy them first.
...isnít that enough?
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Old 04-23-2019, 05:15 PM
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I dispute the Thread Title. More specifically, the use of the word "now".

The Republican party hasn't changed. They're the same party they were with Bush and Reagan. Privatize the government for profit. Stop regulations to further corporate profut. Cut taxes and run up the deficit. Prey on people's fear and hatred of those different than themselves. Same old, Same old.

The only thing that changed is that they're having a harder time hiding the real motives of their voting base now. They used to be able to dress up the bigotry and fear of their base as a tiny far right bloc that they had to unfortunately deal with. Now we realize what their base really is and just how huge it is.

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Old 04-23-2019, 05:50 PM
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The non hive side. I thought that was obvious.
You can tell this is a hive mind because Great Debates is completely devoid of posts. We are all of one mind on things, after all.
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Old 04-23-2019, 06:36 PM
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Apparently, it doesn't take more than their hardcore base to get re-elected. So why would they?
I'll give you an example: when GWB was running for re-election, he cared about the Hispanic vote - his relative popularity (or at least his lack of unpopularity) with Latinos was crucial to his winning re-election. Even as recently as 2013, there was the "post mortem" and supposedly a moment of introspection about how they needed to do better with Latino and minority voters, or at least well enough to not rely on gerrymandering. But somewhere between 2012 and 2016, the political Rubicon was crossed, and there was no going back. That's an example.

When Trump ran for president in 2015, he had this idea that I'm not even sure he totally believed would win him the White House, but I think that he knew that it would create a stir, and that idea was to stoke white Christian identity. It seemed insane and counterintuitive at the time. After all, the 2012 post-mortem said that doubling down on racism was exactly the wrong thing to do. But Trump had an idea: he believed he could go into moderate blue states with large rural white populations and win people over by doing nothing more than exploiting their fears of a changing society. And that's partly how the blue wall crumbled.

Last edited by asahi; 04-23-2019 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 04-24-2019, 07:23 AM
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But Trump had an idea: he believed he could go into moderate blue states with large rural white populations and win people over by doing nothing more than exploiting their fears of a changing society. And that's partly how the blue wall crumbled.
Seemed to be quite effective. As proof, I offer the 2016 election.
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:07 AM
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I'm pinning all my hopes on the young voters coming online. If 2016 wasn't the Pickett's Charge of authoritarianism (specifically, that moment when his troops breached the wall, the "High Water Mark of the confederacy"), we're fucked.

The democracy suppression efforts have only just begun.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:21 AM
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Nobody responds to your embarrassingly partisan claptrap, so it warrants its own thread. Liberal narcissism on full display.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:32 AM
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Will Farnaby: "Look at me! Look at me, everybody! Look at me!"
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:49 AM
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If I wanted the attention of the barely verbal I would jiggle my keys in front of your face.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:54 AM
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Nobody responds to your embarrassingly partisan claptrap, so it warrants its own thread. Liberal narcissism on full display.
Asshole.

Somebody PM'd me and asked if anyone had responded to this particular post. I saw that nobody did. So I reposted it. So go eat shit. Asshole.

By the way your reply still doesn't dispute anything in my post.

What are the GOP running on? What are the policy ideas that they are putting forward? Anything? All you guys have is more bullying shit. Just proving my point.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:58 AM
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Will Farnaby: "Look at me! Look at me, everybody! Look at me!"
Hmmm. Think Iíll steal this. Iíll only use it when he happens to be the final post in a thread that Iíve opened, of course; itís not like Iíll be following him around.

Who knows? This might turn out to be more popular than throwing stuff into quarries.
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Old 04-24-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
Asshole.

Somebody PM'd me and asked if anyone had responded to this particular post. I saw that nobody did. So I reposted it. So go eat shit. Asshole.

By the way your reply still doesn't dispute anything in my post.

What are the GOP running on? What are the policy ideas that they are putting forward? Anything? All you guys have is more bullying shit. Just proving my point.
I canít tell whether my response upthread ó that opposing various liberal ideas seems to be enough ó wasnít noticed, or is what you say proves your point.
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