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Old 05-18-2019, 06:12 PM
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Trump planning to pardon accused US war criminals


Not really a surprise , he wants them done quickly too.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/18/polit...ons/index.html
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:34 PM
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In Trump's mind, I'm sure he sees no problem in honoring accused war criminals manly warriors on the day we honor our fallen warriors.
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:43 PM
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Well, of course he is.
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:57 PM
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It's mainly to emphasize how badly he supports our troops, and whatever they do in the service of their country ain't so bad as long as they just keep letting the whole bone spurs thing slide, heh-heh, we're not gonna ever mention that out loud, right guys? I'm on your side, here, really, heh-heh. Wanna buy a bridge?
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Old 05-18-2019, 09:08 PM
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Trump planning to pardon accused US war criminals


Well, he just pardoned a felonious Canadian British lord, so he's on a roll!
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Old 05-18-2019, 09:54 PM
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We imprison immigrant children and pardon war criminals. The new United States seems sort of shitty.
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Old 05-19-2019, 12:05 AM
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Accused has a specific meaning. It doesn't mean they *are* war criminals.
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Old 05-19-2019, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Accused has a specific meaning. It doesn't mean they *are* war criminals.

Maybe should get into that whole due process and investigation instead of a blanket pardon then, yes ?
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Accused has a specific meaning. It doesn't mean they *are* war criminals.
At some point it becomes easier to simply acknowledge that Trump is doing something wrong rather than make arguments like this one to try to make these things acceptable.
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Old 05-19-2019, 10:19 AM
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I guess it's less embarrassing to try to convince us we aren't seeing what we're seeing than it is to admit they support a lowlife. You'll recall how Republicans insisted that waterboarding isn't torture so they could pretend they weren't cheering on a torturer.
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Old 05-19-2019, 10:48 AM
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Dude was repeatedly reported by his own unit. Read this thread and tell me this dude deserves a pardon and not a trial.

https://twitter.com/scotthech/status...382586368?s=21
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:19 AM
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Can the commander-in-chief get a dishonorable discharge?
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:23 AM
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This should come as no surprise to people who took note of the Trump administration dismantling the FBI unit that investigates these so called war crimes. Being shocked at this is like being shocked at the US government turning a blind eye to white supremacist goons doing their thing.
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:42 AM
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Trump's just building up some Presidential Pardon momentum. He's going to be needing one himself.
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Old 05-19-2019, 12:36 PM
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Accused has a specific meaning. It doesn't mean they *are* war criminals.
I think it means that now we are the war criminals and have become a rogue nation where anything is permitted.
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Old 05-19-2019, 12:51 PM
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Pardoning these folks before they've even gone to trial is absolutely insane. Some of them were accused of deliberately targeting (and murdering) non-combatant children, for god's sake. Punishing war criminals (and investigating/trying suspected war criminals) is vitally important to our long-term national security. This is just colossally dangerous, in addition to being morally unconscionable.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-19-2019 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 05-19-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
Dude was repeatedly reported by his own unit. Read this thread and tell me this dude deserves a pardon and not a trial.

https://twitter.com/scotthech/status...382586368?s=21

"ďOne day, from his sniper nest, Chief Gallagher shot a girl in a flower-print hijab who was walking w/ other girls on the riverbank. She dropped, clutching her stomach, & the other girls dragged her away.Ē Trump is preparing to pardon this war criminal."

MAGA!
  #18  
Old 05-19-2019, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Accused has a specific meaning. It doesn't mean they *are* war criminals.
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/16/p...ing/index.html
(CNN)Navy SEAL Edward Gallagher is being charged by the Navy with stabbing and murdering a wounded person, shooting at noncombatants, posing for a photo and performing his re-enlistment ceremony next to a dead body.

Gallagher is being charged with various violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice while deployed to Mosul, Iraq, in 2017, related to the various incidents.

Gallagher "did ... with premeditation, murder a wounded male person" under his care by "stabbing him in the neck and body with a knife" while battling ISIS in Mosul in May 2017, according to the charge sheet dated Friday.
https://twitter.com/glennkirschner2/...44875321962502


1. As a former career prosecutor, including 6 years as an Army JAG, this makes me sick. Please bear with me as this will take a minute: Our military criminal justice system protects the rights of soldiers accused of crimes as well as, if not better then, many civilian systems...

Gallagher is at least in part on trial because he took a captured 15-year-old ISIS combatant who SEAL medics were tending to and murdered him with a hunting knife.

I don't know what you thought this post was adding to the conversation, or why you think it's necessary to stand up for someone who is currently on trial because his squadmates reported him butchering an unarmed, restrained captive, but...

...There is no but. There is no good thing here. Nothing about the post you made makes the world a better place.


If you want to defend the president on instinct (why you'd want to do that is beyond me) but don't know the first thing about what he's actually doing, just preface your post with "I know literally nothing about the case at hand, but..." to make it clear that what you're posting is simply senseless and not monstrous.

Alternatively, if you want to stand up for the president pardoning bloodthirsty, racist serial killers, then just be honest about it. Be honest that you have no problems with a soldier butchering an unarmed captive with a knife. Be honest that you have no problems with snipers murdering unarmed civilians and children. Just don't expect any of the rest of us to not react with shock, horror, and disgust at how fucking awful that is.

Meanwhile, in reality, this is scary for a number of reasons. The president is explicitly pardoning bloodthirsty murderers. The message being sent here is clear - if you murder people the president doesn't like, he'll pardon you. That's... fucking terrifying, honestly.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 05-19-2019 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 05-19-2019, 01:54 PM
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To that I have to add that it would be less likely that other nations would be willing to keep American troops in their soil, because, while it was bad enough that some abuses are ignored; at least they knew that clear abuses by the military would give a good chance for the ones abused or their relatives an opportunity to seek justice.

With a clown like Trump that opportunity, though not as big as I'm aware of, is completely neutralized and it leads to less support or compliance from the governments and population that are our allies.
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Old 05-19-2019, 02:05 PM
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Yeah - this is one of those things that is both awful all on its own and awful in its ripple effects.
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Old 05-19-2019, 02:14 PM
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And when people scratch their heads and ask what drives terrorism, we can recall the voice of GWB: They hate us because of our freedom. Our freedom to murder little girls.

Last edited by bobot; 05-19-2019 at 02:16 PM.
  #22  
Old 05-19-2019, 04:56 PM
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Yeah - this is one of those things that is both awful all on its own and awful in its ripple effects.
Yes. Trump's decision will put members of the US military in danger. That's a given.

But, hey, as long as it provides a distraction from all that bad news about his dealings with Deutsche Bank and about that GOP Congressman denouncing him, that's all that matters, right?

Last edited by Sherrerd; 05-19-2019 at 04:57 PM.
  #23  
Old 05-20-2019, 05:35 AM
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Accused has a specific meaning. It doesn't mean they *are* war criminals.
Pardon also carries with it implicit guilt. To accept a pardon, one must first be guilty of something that requires a pardon.
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Old 05-20-2019, 05:38 AM
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Trump's just building up some Presidential Pardon momentum. He's going to be needing one himself.
I think the deeper purpose is to create hyper-partisan polarization. He assumes that pardoning war criminals will excite the more blood-lusting among his base, and maybe he's right. Most veterans I know differentiate between "shit that happens" on the battlefield and cold-blooded murderers, wanting civilians to understand the first type but having contempt for the latter.
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Old 05-20-2019, 06:01 AM
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Pardon also carries with it implicit guilt. To accept a pardon, one must first be guilty of something that requires a pardon.
Iíve never been able to take that seriously.

Letís say Iím accused of a crime; and, being innocent, I of course plead not guilty. Possibly I testify, under oath, that I am not guilty. If, while still correctly pointing out that Iím not guilty, I wind up sentenced to death, then ó what?

I figure Iíd keep noting, each day, that Iím innocent; and, were I offered a pardon, I figure Iíd have a choice: accept it, honestly and explicitly proclaiming my innocence that day just like Iíd been saying and just like Iíd keep saying for the rest of my life; or, uh, turn down that pardon, and remain behind bars (like various guilty folks do) until I get executed (like various guilty folks do)?

If Iím wrong, then provide me with another option; but if Iím correctly summing up your position, then which of those choices would you advise me to go with?
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Old 05-20-2019, 06:09 AM
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I’ve never been able to take that seriously.

Let’s say I’m accused of a crime; and, being innocent, I of course plead not guilty. Possibly I testify, under oath, that I am not guilty. If, while still correctly pointing out that I’m not guilty, I wind up sentenced to death, then — what?

I figure I’d keep noting, each day, that I’m innocent; and, were I offered a pardon, I figure I’d have a choice: accept it, honestly and explicitly proclaiming my innocence that day just like I’d been saying and just like I’d keep saying for the rest of my life; or, uh, turn down that pardon, and remain behind bars (like various guilty folks do) until I get executed (like various guilty folks do)?

If I’m wrong, then provide me with another option; but if I’m correctly summing up your position, then which of those choices would you advise me to go with?
Speaking strictly in legal terms, I would accept implicit guilt and then get my ass out of jail, if that's what it took. You can always maintain your innocence later.

I'm talking about the specific situation that was mentioned in the thread. D'Anconia mentioned that they were merely accused of war crimes, as if that lessens the impact of the pardons. In reality I think it's mostly a bullshit exercise. There probably *is* at least some evidence of war crimes having been committed.

Last edited by asahi; 05-20-2019 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 05-20-2019, 06:41 AM
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Speaking strictly in legal terms, I would accept implicit guilt and then get my ass out of jail, if that's what it took. You can always maintain your innocence later.
All apologies, but youíre sidestepping what strikes me as the whole point: Iím not just talking about maintaining oneís innocence later, but about explicitly stating it when accepting the pardon. (Heck, make it explicit on both sides, if you like: since Iím the one writing this story, let me now cast myself as Governor or even President; and let me now say that Iím explicitly saying Iím offering the guy a pardon because Iíve come to believe that heís innocent ó and that said guy explicitly maintains his innocence right as he accepts. Whatís left implicit if thatís all explicit?)

That said, you just suggested something that I donít recall thinking of before: that, in the death-penalty scenario Iím proposing, the following seems Ďimplicití: ďweíre going to kill you unless you accept this pardon.Ē If a guy accepts that pardon while, again, explicitly stating that heís innocent, then ó well, okay, sure, add something implicit to what just got made explicit; but it doesnít strike me as implicit guilt.
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Old 05-20-2019, 07:16 AM
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The defense that they are merely accused is absurd. A pardon is given when you believe a convicted person is innocent, or the punishment is disproportionate to the crime, or that you believe the person did nothing wrong. This is obviously the latter.

This is in keeping with the theme of the administration. Caucasian Christian Americans are the only people whose rights have any meaning. It's perfectly okay to rip a nursing child from his mother and throw him in a cage because, hey they're from Central America and not quite human. It's okay to shoot Muslim children for no reason because after all Muslims have no rights. It's what he believes to the core of his being and it's what makes his supporters giddy with delight. They all love to see "other" people suffer and die and they love this monster because he hates the same people they do.
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:24 AM
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He may use his authority to void the proceedings, effectively "pardoning" the alleged monster. He would have the helpfui expertise of Sen. Graham, who has an extensive background in military law procedures, if Sen Graham wishes to surrender the last scrap of his dignity and integrity.
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:26 AM
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He has any left?
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:24 AM
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Accused has a specific meaning. It doesn't mean they *are* war criminals.
So why should Trump pardon them before the trial? Like, if they aren't war criminals, then they could have a trial and be found not guilty? You've heard of trials before, right?
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:34 AM
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Dude was repeatedly reported by his own unit. Read this thread and tell me this dude deserves a pardon and not a trial.

https://twitter.com/scotthech/status...382586368?s=21
Good lord, that guy is an out and out pscho! I had only heard about the incident with the POW, not the rest of this shit. That guy single-handed did more harm to our anti-terrorism effort that any 10 random ISIS fighters. Don't they have psychological screening for Seals? I'm starting to think that Alice's restaurant wasn't an exaggeration.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 05-20-2019 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 05-20-2019, 12:51 PM
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Good lord, that guy is an out and out pscho! I had only heard about the incident with the POW, not the rest of this shit. That guy single-handed did more harm to our anti-terrorism effort that any 10 random ISIS fighters. Don't they have psychological screening for Seals? I'm starting to think that Alice's restaurant wasn't an exaggeration.
I thought SEALs were supposed to be smart, not just KILL KILL KILL machines? Why didn't some other SEAL frag this guy, for the good of the service?

And don't say because they are honorable. Letting this guy get away with what he did is already dishonorable.
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Old 05-20-2019, 01:47 PM
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Which is why they're not letting him get away with it, and testifying against him.

Or at least, trying to not let him get away with it.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:37 PM
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Can the commander-in-chief get a dishonorable discharge?

Yes, but now that Michael Cohen is in prison it'll be tougher to organize the payments afterwards.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:07 AM
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I thought SEALs were supposed to be smart, not just KILL KILL KILL machines? Why didn't some other SEAL frag this guy, for the good of the service?

In the words of Generation Kill (which if you haven't watched, you should absolutely watch), about a guy who shot civilians and camels during an op :

- You know what's even more fucked up ? Trombley only fired two bursts, maybe seven rounds. I mean, we're bumpind down a dirt road, his targets are like, two hundred meters out and he hits exactly what the fuck he's shooting at ?! I mean, fuck, man. The boy is a cold-hearted, deadeye killer.
- Yeah no shit. That's 'cause he's a psycho. But at least he's our psycho.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:13 AM
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Yes. That would be the least.
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:33 AM
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Good lord, that guy is an out and out pscho! I had only heard about the incident with the POW, not the rest of this shit. That guy single-handed did more harm to our anti-terrorism effort that any 10 random ISIS fighters. Don't they have psychological screening for Seals? I'm starting to think that Alice's restaurant wasn't an exaggeration.
From Hechinger's Twitter thread:

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Trumps use of pardon power would send a clear message. A value judgment. Consistent w/ his own cruelty, white supremacy, & violence at home & abroad. From police violence, to the Muslim ban, family separations, border shootings, & war on LGTBQ & women’s rights. It’s ‘Us v. Them.’
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For Trump, cruelty towards “the other” is the point. If you’re Black or Brown, a non-white immigrant, a woman, or other minority you’re an “animal.” If you’re useful to him, he’ll embrace you. If not he’ll kill you, literally & figuratively, for sport. Just like Gallagher.
He is spot on.

This is exactly what Trump is doing. Whether he is consciously aware of the implications or not, I don't know, as he tends to operate impulsively. It's probably just his instincts. Trump's instincts gravitate toward the psychological quandrant of dominance over his enemies.

Trump's pardoning of this vicious and ruthless killer is a signal to his political enemies, that he has it in him to be nasty as hell, that he sides with people who lack humanity. This is also something that can undermine and disrupt the professional culture of the military. It encourages lawlessness and hyper-polarization in the military, which is extraordinarily dangerous. Because it also fits into Trump's pattern of authoritarian behavior, rewarding vicious people in exchange for their loyalty.

This is why he is loved by his deplorables. Trump is useful to them. Trump liberates them from having to have any sense of humanity and respect for dignity. Trump gives them the liberty to be awful. Expect this to continue, and expect it to get worse.

Last edited by asahi; 05-21-2019 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:23 AM
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I'd say, "Surely, this is the kind of thing even the most insane Trump supporter can't defend"... And, I've mostly been right. The closest we've been getting are lukewarm takes like this:

https://twitter.com/JesseKellyDC/sta...15675979599873

Quote:
A lot of people who’ve never spent 5 seconds in combat have some very strong opinions about how Eddie Gallagher should have conducted himself.

I don’t know if he’s guilty. You don’t know if he’s guilty. He hasn’t had a trial yet. But I do know that our spec ops guys deploy 250+ days a year, immerse themselves in a world most cannot comprehend, and deserve better than rushed judgements from the Call of Duty brigade.
And let's be clear - this is a shit take, from a shit human being (general rule of thumb: if you write for The Federalist, you're the kind of person who deserves less to be working in journalism and more to be a victim of a workplace massacre); the people who turned Gallagher in were his own squadmates. But it's hardly a full-throated "MAGA!" defense. They at least have the self-awareness to realize that pardoning a guy known primarily for being a racist serial killer might be a bad look, and to throw out excuses for why the criticisms might not count. Pathetic, stupid excuses, but they're not exactly saying "Trump is totally right", which is a step up in self-awareness from these assholes.

But wait, lest the tone of the national conversation waver, there's Fox News, showing the self-awareness of a particularly dim sack of frog spawn. Speaking of a group of people who really ought to quit their current jobs and start a shotgun-tasting company for the good of mankind, Fox News demonstrably has the ear of our president, and they've been arguing that Gallagher was treated unfairly. One Fox & Friends host has been privately lobbying Trump to pardon this monster. Seems a waste of time, honestly - he could do it publicly and Trump would get the memo. The actual case being made? I dunno, what do you think - are these people utterly ignorant of what Gallagher did and chose to take to the air to defend him before bothering to find out (for four fucking months)? Or do they really not have a problem with soldiers gutting prisoners of war and sniping indiscriminately at non-combatant children? They work at fox news (and thus are inherently fucking terrible people), so it wouldn't surprise me either way.

If you're a human being, this man's actions should shock and disturb you.

If they don't... well, congrats on being outed as a fucking body snatcher.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 05-21-2019 at 11:25 AM.
  #40  
Old 05-21-2019, 11:45 AM
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To that I have to add that it would be less likely that other nations would be willing to keep American troops in their soil, because, while it was bad enough that some abuses are ignored; at least they knew that clear abuses by the military would give a good chance for the ones abused or their relatives an opportunity to seek justice.

With a clown like Trump that opportunity, though not as big as I'm aware of, is completely neutralized and it leads to less support or compliance from the governments and population that are our allies.
So there is a silver lining.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:17 PM
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OK, I'll bite. How is any of that in any way a good thing?
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:12 PM
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OK, I'll bite. How is any of that in any way a good thing?
He doesn't like American military adventurism so less convenient foreign bases to launch those adventures is a good thing.
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:25 PM
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Non-Americans may share that opinion.
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:40 PM
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Accused has a specific meaning. It doesn't mean they *are* war criminals.
One prominent candidate is set to stand trial and is, therefore, "accused". Others have already been convicted of heinous crimes. They *are* war criminals.
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:57 PM
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I think his final pardon is going to be more controversial.
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Old 05-21-2019, 04:01 PM
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If I were in Trump's position, this wouldn't be the last psychopath I would pardon, but the first. Think about it: he could create his own army of warriors who don't respect the rule of law. They would owe him their allegiance for setting them free, and he would need them to do dirty work to crush his enemies, with knowledge in advance that they'd probably be pardoned. Trump can (and probably will) weaponize his pardon powers. He could even use them to assassinate his enemies, because...pardon.
  #47  
Old 05-21-2019, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
And let's be clear - this is a shit take, from a shit human being (general rule of thumb: if you write for The Federalist, you're the kind of person who deserves less to be working in journalism and more to be a victim of a workplace massacre) ...
This is a warning for stating that an individual or group is deserving of harm. This isn't even close to the line.

[/moderating]
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Old 05-22-2019, 04:03 PM
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It doesn't make sense to pardon someone who has yet to be convicted. I reserve my moral judgements about pardoning war criminals until after they are convicted as war criminals.

I haven't looked at the details for Mr. Behenna, but the moral outrage just can't be there as he had already served ten out of fifteen years, with the latest five years out on parole.

~Max
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Old 05-22-2019, 05:02 PM
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It doesn't make sense to pardon someone who has yet to be convicted.
That didn't stop Ford.
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Old 05-22-2019, 05:23 PM
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That didn't stop Ford.
That's a good point. I will have to think about that.

~Max
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