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Old 05-20-2019, 04:09 PM
Bijou Drains is offline
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Will George Martin finish and publish books 6 and 7 for Game of Thrones?


Now that the show is over, I say he won't finish them, there is no reason for him to publish them other than a cash grab.
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Old 05-20-2019, 04:12 PM
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Nope. Doesn't need to, doesn't know how to, doesn't want to.
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Old 05-20-2019, 04:19 PM
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An adult who thinks about it for more than a couple minutes should be able to think of at least five different reasons "other than a cash grab" to publish them. Here's my own quick stab at it:

1) Contractual obligation to publishers.

2) Emotional commitment to pleasing fans.

3) Dis-satisfaction with television ending.

4) Desire to leave complete literary legacy, even if satisfied with television ending.

5) Drumming up interest in prequel series, or even other personal literary projects, by keeping release of books in public mind.





The money doesn't necessarily mean much to him any more, but any of those reasons might compel him to finish. Of course, there is one really big reason not to publish them:

1) The plot got completely out of hand, which means they're extremely hard to write.

If I had to guess, I'd say he completes Book 6 but not 7.
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Old 05-20-2019, 04:21 PM
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he said he has no deadline to write the books so contract is not an issue. He certainly can write books now , he put out that one about GOT history last year. Why did he do that one and not finish 6?
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Old 05-20-2019, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
he said he has no deadline to write the books so contract is not an issue. He certainly can write books now , he put out that one about GOT history last year. Why did he do that one and not finish 6?
See Item 1 in the second "list"* above:

1) The plot got completely out of hand, which means they're extremely hard to write.


* 2)Hi Opal!
3) We(I) still miss you.
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Old 05-20-2019, 08:49 PM
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1b) Even before the plot got completely out of hand, Martin was a very slow writer. People were already complaining about how long the wait was for the next book at least three books ago.

2) Who even knows how long he's going to live? His health has never been all that great. Even if he were (for whatever personal reasons) committed to finishing them, and wrote at a normal pace, he might still not finish.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:03 PM
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there is no reason for him to publish them other than a cash grab.
I don't know why you act as if that is not a compelling reason.

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Old 05-21-2019, 02:00 AM
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The best thing Martin could have done was die circa 2013 so that Brandon Sanderson could finish the series.
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Old 05-21-2019, 04:18 AM
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The best thing Martin could have done was die circa 2013 so that Brandon Sanderson could finish the series.
Let's pretend you didn't write the first part of that sentence, but wrt to the second - how fucked was Wheel of Time when Brandon Sanderson took up the quills? (I've not read it, but I think he is seen as doing a very good job with it?). Because Song of Ice and Fire is quite badly broken as we all know - there would be a queue of turd-polishers a mile long willing and able to complete the series, but I doubt any of them could make it good from this point.

A feast for crows was the tipping point - pretty bad in hindsight but if it had been followed up with something strong you could have seen it more favourably in context - GRRM moving the pieces around the chess board. A Dance with dragons was a giant stinker, though, can't see a way back from that (IMHO).

Seems like you can't really afford to put the pen down on these huge multi-volume epics for any substantial length of time. Like running an ultra-marathon - have a 5, 10 min break by all means but any longer and you'll never get going again.
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Old 05-21-2019, 04:28 AM
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Let's pretend you didn't write the first part of that sentence, but wrt to the second - how fucked was Wheel of Time when Brandon Sanderson took up the quills? (I've not read it, but I think he is seen as doing a very good job with it?). Because Song of Ice and Fire is quite badly broken as we all know - there would be a queue of turd-polishers a mile long willing and able to complete the series, but I doubt any of them could make it good from this point.
I was being facetious about Martin's death, obviously. I wish him nothing but health.

As for Wheel of Time, I don't really know how bad it got because I gave up after book 7, but I understand it got even worse, which is kind of hard to believe. That said, I dived back in after Sanderson finished it - because I love Sanderson - and even without reading the 73 books in the middle, I still found the ending excellent. If something (God forbid!) happens to Martin, I think Sanderson can fix the series. His prose isn't as good as Martin's, and he'll probably cut back on the sex, but the man knows how to write a story.
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Old 05-21-2019, 06:55 AM
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I don't know why you act as if that is not a compelling reason.

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He does not seem like a guy who would put out books just for a cash grab.
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:24 AM
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Seriously doubt it, but I think he should have someone ghost write them and he can edit. The material is all there in the TV show.
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:42 AM
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Seriously doubt it, but I think he should have someone ghost write them and he can edit. The material is all there in the TV show.
Not all the material. There are several characters and subplots from the books that, as I understand it, never showed up on TV.

I've read all five books that exist so far. I've never watched the show (we don't have HBO). Nevertheless, I followed the spoilers for this last season, so I know basically what happened in each episode. I figure that's the only ending I'm ever going to get.

I don't think there's any earthly possibility that the last two books will ever be published.
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:49 AM
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He's just had the biggest, most watched book trailer ever.

Of course he's going to finish it.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:19 AM
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He's just had the biggest, most watched book trailer ever.

Of course he's going to finish it.
The question isn't whether he should, the question is whether he can. I believe that due to writer's block, an inability to untangle story lines, loss of confidence, lack of interest in the story, poor work ethic or some other reason, Martin is incapable of finishing the series, whether or not he wants to.

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Old 05-21-2019, 09:24 AM
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I think he'll finish book 6 and die before publishing 7. AFFC and ADWD both took a long time, and he's taking longer with 6 than for either of those, but he's published several chapters and it seems like a lot of seasons 5 and 6 are from the unreleased book. One of the actors thought GRRM was finished and waiting for the show to end before publishing. Perhaps he was just confused to a degree. I would guess the next book is out within 2 years, but George doesn't hold on for another 8 to finish it out.

Wheel of Time was probably more meandering than ASOIAF when Jordan died, IMO. I don't recall which book it was (Crossroads of Twilight?), but the last one I read didn't advance the plot at all which is remarkable for an ~800 page book.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:32 AM
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You have to remember that A Game of Thrones was only Martin's third real novel, after almost three decades of writing. Not every writer is cut out for a massive series like this one. I think the man simply bit off more than he could chew.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:33 AM
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No, if he knew how to finish them, he would have by now. The show proves that Martin created a big, unruly mess of a plot. Martin realized it and got stuck, so he bought a movie theater and blogs about football. The writers of the show didn't have that luxury.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:40 AM
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I haven't seen the show but the books ended on huge cliffhangers and I'm a little bit salty about it.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:46 AM
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Wheel of Time was probably more meandering than ASOIAF when Jordan died, IMO. I don't recall which book it was (Crossroads of Twilight?), but the last one I read didn't advance the plot at all which is remarkable for an ~800 page book.
That does sound remarkable but perhaps that sort of stasis enabled Sanderson to come in and get the show (back) on the road? ie it wasn't irretrievably bolloxed, just ran out of steam.

tbh it's a while since I read Dance with dragons and my recollection is not so much that the whole things had gotten too big and incoherent, more that it had gotten boring - like the author wasn't really feeling it any more. Plot had indeed spiralled out of control but in tedious ways. So maybe someone else could resurrect it with a sense of purpose, if it came down to that.

Erikson's Malazan books are a good point of contrast - wrote like a demon for ten years, and definitely went off the reservation with the narrative arc at various points. A number of missteps but he rarely lost that energy, the whole thing was driven from start to finish.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:02 AM
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Martin has had 10+/- years since HBO started filming GOT, and he knew pretty quickly that they were going to continue the series to a conclusion. I read that he gave the series writers his proposed ending and they carried on from there. I think everyone is pretty much on the ball regarding why the books will not finish--he got way too complex plotwise and either didn't know how to get himself out of it, or he got bored with the whole thing. If he really did intend for the books to continue he's had 10+/- years to be pounding the keys to his computer and he's not done that.

I remember reading about a seminar he participated in with Stephen King. The questions got to how do you write a novel, or something to that effect. King came out with "I write every day for X-hours." Martin was gobsmacked. You mean you write every single day? Somehow he simply could not get his mind around that in order to write a novel you had to sit down and write every day.

That sort of summed everything up for me.

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Old 05-21-2019, 10:06 AM
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Not all the material. There are several characters and subplots from the books that, as I understand it, never showed up on TV.

I've read all five books that exist so far. I've never watched the show (we don't have HBO). Nevertheless, I followed the spoilers for this last season, so I know basically what happened in each episode. I figure that's the only ending I'm ever going to get.

I don't think there's any earthly possibility that the last two books will ever be published.
A good ghost writer could tie that all up. I wouldn't expect it to be perfect, but I wouldn't expect it to be perfect even if he did it.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:14 AM
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I wonder how much he made from the show. Maybe not as much as we think because nobody knew it would be this big so his contract may not as lucrative as other shows or movies. Of course he could have redone the contract after season 1 if the contract allowed that.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:23 AM
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Martin insists he's going forward but, as ever, don't expect him to provide a timetable: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/21/enter...rnd/index.html
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:54 AM
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Before we discuss the unpublished books, let us look at the published books.

First three, 2 years between each book. Solid, well written, good twists and not too much off course.

Fourth book: Written five years later, half the characters people were waiting to hear from (Tyrion, Danerys, Bran) were not in it, some were barely in it (Arya, Jon Snow, Stannis). It was in effect Cersei going mad, Jamie conquers Riverlands, Brienne wanders Riverlands, Sansa hides, Sam goes away, and LOADS more expanded related story from Dorne and Iron Islands. In effect, GRRM had got bored with most of his characters and wrote fillers and wrote about something else: the fake vikings and the fake spanish. But it was a complete book, unlike book five.

Prelude to Fifth book: GRRM was not finished. The TV series had started, but was not yet a success. His publishers in effect forced him, via advances and payments to publish SOMETHING new. He had something which he knocked into shape. But he cut the Sansa ending. He also cut out both the Battle of Ice (in effect the Stannis/Bolton conflict which look solidly that Stannis would win, and not this "20 good men" nonsense) and Battle of Mereen. Parts of these later omissions would bleed out after the fifth book. Something like Hardholme might have been planned too.

Book five: Six years later. Partially completely, but most of the main characters back. A lot of the twists which people enjoyed from the first three. Continuation of the new Dorne stuff, but Arya gets a lot, Tyrion, Danerys, full Stannis and the wall. Theon is assumed dead until this one. Jon stabbed. More Brienne wandering the Riverlands. In general it looks like a much more satisfying book until you realise that a lot planned is missing.

So I'd argue, when is he going to finish the FIFTH book, never mind six and seven.

(Please note I'm working from a wiki, so might not quite be completely accurate on whats in AFFC and DOD).
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:03 AM
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I stopped watching the show when it caught up to the books. Maybe a foolish move, but based on the negative reaction to the final season, I can live with it. Point is, I REALLY want the series to be finished in novel form.

That said, GRRM admitted his publishers want him to split book 6 (The Winds of Winter) into 2 books because, even though it's not done, it's already a mammoth sized beast. He's actually released quite a few chapters. I predict that even if GRRM continues writing the series, it will not be finished by book 7.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:44 AM
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From the horses mouth:

Quote:
Originally Posted by George RR Martin
As a producer, I’ve got five shows in development at HBO (some having nothing whatsoever to do with the world of Westeros), two at Hulu, one on the History Channel. I’m involved with a number of feature projects, some based upon my own stories and books, some on material created by others. There are these short films I am hoping to make, adaptations of classic stories by one of the most brilliant, quirky, and original writers our genre has ever produced. I’ve consulted on a video game out of Japan.
We are never seeing the damn books.

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Old 05-21-2019, 11:59 AM
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I do think we will get one more because supposedly a lot of it is already written. So unless all that work gets scrapped (which is not unthinkable), it would be at least worth the money to just publish it. But yeah, finishing the series is probably a very long shot.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:31 PM
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he was involved in TV shows before he wrote the GOT books. He worked on the show Beauty and the Beast as 1 example.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:48 PM
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You have to remember that A Game of Thrones was only Martin's third real novel, after almost three decades of writing. Not every writer is cut out for a massive series like this one. I think the man simply bit off more than he could chew.
Dying of the Light

Windhaven (shared) (from novellas)

Fevre Dream

Armageddon Rag


A Game of Thrones

So fourth (and a half) rather than third.
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:17 PM
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Dying if the Light is more a novella, IMHO.
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:11 PM
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I do think we will get one more because supposedly a lot of it is already written.
That's very optimistic. Martin has been EXTREMELY busy in the time since the last book. He is actually a pretty prolific writer. He's just not writing Winds of Winter, he is writing other stuff. Just because it's been eight years since the last book doesn't mean WoW has progressed much, not when he has put out so much other stuff.
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Old 05-21-2019, 03:33 PM
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He should do kickstarter and say if he raises $1 million he will put out book #6.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:01 PM
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Heck, I got bored with Wheel of Time after only the first book, and I'm not sure I even finished that. It struck me as a phone book, with a novella's worth of plot.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:11 PM
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he was involved in TV shows before he wrote the GOT books. He worked on the show Beauty and the Beast as 1 example.
Wasn't he just a writer on that? Not making huge, huge money from it, I don't think.

I think George will attempt to write the books, but I would not put it out of the possibility range for it to be unfinished, but for someone like Brandon Sanderson to come in and finish it.

I wonder if he has tons of notes and outline type stuff if he does die.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:39 PM
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The best thing Martin could have done was die circa 2013 so that Brandon Sanderson could finish the series.
Sanderson is on record as saying he has no interest in it, on top of Martin saying he won't let anyone finish his books. And I don't think Sanderson would be a good fit anyways, completely different writing style (though I like both authors). He himself likened it to "asking Spielberg to finish a Tarantino film".

I agree with Snarky Kong that I think we get one more book but that'll be it, with the rest left unfinished. I am hesitant to say "book 6" because (as Smid points out) the scope keeps changing. The first plan was for a trilogy. Then that grew too big and we were going to have three books separated by a five year gap from the next few books. Then he needed to fill in the gap with one book, that grew into two (and even then some stuff like Stannis' Battle of Ice didn't make it in). Wouldn't surprise me at all if what he had planned to wrap up in two books (Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring) ends up turning out longer than that.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:44 PM
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So I'll have to disagree with Busy Scissors quite a bit as A Feast for Crows is my second favorite book of the series - at the time I was disappointed that it wasn't as fast paced and nuts as my favorite book of the series (A Storm of Swords), but on re-reads I realized the masterpiece it was. It is very unlike the other books - each POV chapter is far longer than any other book. There is a lot more introspection. There is a lot more focus on the horrors of war on the smallfolk. I thought it was brilliant. And I really loved the look at Dorne (which are far more scheming than they are portrayed in the show) and the Iron Islands.

I didn't like A Dance of Dragons as much, but I did like the (f)Aegon storyline and what the invasion of the Stormlands means for Westeros.

I can see Martin finish Book 6 at some point in the next few years (he has enough sample chapters after all). We'll see after that.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:58 PM
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I can see Martin finish Book 6 at some point in the next few years (he has enough sample chapters after all).
Good point - obviously depends on what his contract with his publisher is, but let's say (god forbid) he passed tomorrow, would his publisher just gather all the chapters he's already made publicly available and sell it as "Winds of Winter"?

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  #39  
Old 05-21-2019, 10:06 PM
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A ghost writer (or co-author) is the one way we'll see anything. I see no evidence that GRRM gives a rat's fart about these characters any more. The world, yes, but not this story.

ETA: Yes, I think the publisher would hire someone to finish anything and continue writing in the "world of GRRM". Look at what's happening with Tom Clancy.

Last edited by Sunny Daze; 05-21-2019 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 05-22-2019, 02:50 AM
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I remember when I did management training once, there was a personality test which in effect categorised people into starters, runners and finishers (among other attributes). Some would exclude the others, someone who germinates an idea, and gets it going often finds it difficult to finish it. People who finish things often don't often have good starter ideas.

I see this as GRRM's problem. He's hit his limitations and his skillset struggles with completion. I can imagine if he didn't limit his books to seven, we'd have two or three more by now. Not very well edited, and expanding much much further, and very unlikely to end. But we'd have something which was a song of ice and fire. With this into about five more books, and an overall completion plan, he'd need someone who would coauthor to get the completion done.

Of course, none of this is going to happen, GRRM is deluded on the idea that he can finish it, and finish it in two books. So he expands his universe in other ways. Writes historical preludes, side projects, talks on lengths about the history (and gets others to write it). It is him. It is his way. I hope at the most one more book. I don't however expect it at all.
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Old 05-22-2019, 02:51 AM
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So I'll have to disagree with Busy Scissors quite a bit as A Feast for Crows is my second favorite book of the series - at the time I was disappointed that it wasn't as fast paced and nuts as my favorite book of the series (A Storm of Swords), but on re-reads I realized the masterpiece it was. It is very unlike the other books - each POV chapter is far longer than any other book. There is a lot more introspection. There is a lot more focus on the horrors of war on the smallfolk. I thought it was brilliant. And I really loved the look at Dorne (which are far more scheming than they are portrayed in the show) and the Iron Islands.

I didn't like A Dance of Dragons as much, but I did like the (f)Aegon storyline and what the invasion of the Stormlands means for Westeros.

I can see Martin finish Book 6 at some point in the next few years (he has enough sample chapters after all). We'll see after that.
Thank you. I thought I was the only Doper who liked A Feast for Crows. I, too, liked the look at Dorne, and I thought the scene where Jaime intimidated Edmure Tully was one of the best in the series. More than anything else, it shows why Jamie is such a badass. In fact, all the scenes of him around the Tully castle are pretty good.
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Old 05-22-2019, 02:53 AM
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To get back to the original point of the thread, I really don't give a damn if he finishes it or not. I bought ADWD and thought it was one of the worst books I've ever read. If he does come out with a sixth book, I'm reading it from the library. No way I'm wasting money again.
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:00 AM
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I sort of get the impression that his intended story arc was to start with the political squabblings, and then throw them into perspective by giving the claimants to the throne a real crisis, to show just how insignificant something like the succession actually is. Note that "A Game of Thrones" (i.e., the squabbling between the potential heirs) is the title only of the first book, while the series as a whole is "A Song of Ice and Fire" (i.e., the Night King and dragons).

But then he got caught up in the political stuff that he intended to be of secondary importance, and couldn't stop it from expanding out to most of the series.
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:21 AM
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I sort of get the impression that his intended story arc was to start with the political squabblings, and then throw them into perspective by giving the claimants to the throne a real crisis, to show just how insignificant something like the succession actually is.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case, it makes sense as an overarching plot and would have been an interesting way for the series to turn. It's definitely clear that he's got no handle on the series at this point, and I don't expect him to actually finish books 6 and 7. He'll publish something for book six eventually, and at some point either with his sign off or after his death someone will take notes and make a 'book seven' to wrap up the series, but it won't be his work directly.
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Old 05-22-2019, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Peyote_Coyote View Post
Thank you. I thought I was the only Doper who liked A Feast for Crows. I, too, liked the look at Dorne, and I thought the scene where Jaime intimidated Edmure Tully was one of the best in the series. More than anything else, it shows why Jamie is such a badass. In fact, all the scenes of him around the Tully castle are pretty good.
Yes, the Riverlands stuff was great. Brienne in other parts of the Riverlands were also fantastic.
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:53 PM
betonbill is offline
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On some interview or another he was asked about books #6 and 7, and he gave his usual "they're coming along...someday..." However, he did mention that he expected the two of them to be around 3000 pages in length.

Come on, give me a break. He'll never finish them.
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:24 PM
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I think he's further along in TWOW than we think. He's released several chapters from it. A rumor I read recently from someone who was correct about show leaks claims he actually has written 2/3 or 3/4 of it or so. I don't know how you'd know how far something that's not done is going to be, but I guess you can estimate by previous books. Now, that last bit? That's the part that could be anything: writer's block, boredom, distraction, a tricky book problem he can't figure out, too much to write so it gets overwhelming.

I truly think he wants it done. I don't know if he *can*, however, despite his best intentions.

As for WOT, I didn't read it until recently. I can't really tell the difference between when Sanderson took over. It doesn't really have his voice and I felt he did good doing RJ's voice. I have read/heard many fans who were reading from the beginning and who are much more invested in it than I am that they really can tell when he took over. The reception is mixed. The middle WOT books were rough. A new author coming in at the same time they got interesting again? Was that the plots or the author? But having your series die out with no conclusion would be far worse than an author that you think didn't capture it perfectly.

I don't think Sanderson is right for ASOIAF, though, should it ever need another author. And definitely not the two who helped with the world book (I could tell what Martin wrote and what they wrote and theirs was dreadful).
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:46 PM
Mahaloth is online now
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He gave New Zealand permission to hold him there if he doesn't bring his next book with him in August 2020.
  #49  
Old 05-23-2019, 12:12 PM
Smid is offline
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I think he's further along in TWOW than we think. He's released several chapters from it.
Pretty much every chapter he has released was intended for Dances with Dragons and didn't make it. Even Arya's one which seemed a significant time afterwards.

Battle of Mereen (2 of them). Sansa's (though there was reference that she was going to do something shocking before ADWD was published, and it wasn't in that), pre Battle of Ice, and some of Aegon's initial campaign via Martel's posse.

I think every single one of them was sitting as part of an unfinished chunk of ADWD deferred into Book 6, in 2011. I take it as absolutely no indication of any progress whatsoever.
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Old 05-23-2019, 06:09 PM
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The best thing Martin could have done was die circa 2013 so that Brandon Sanderson could finish the series.
This Brandon Sanderson meme needs to die. He's an observant Mormon who's completely unsuitable to writing a risque, violent series like ASOIAF.

Anyway, I think we'll get some sort of Book 6 eventually, but there's no way GRRM will live long enough to finish the series (which will require more than 7 books anyway).
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