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Old 07-07-2019, 09:34 AM
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Help me understand "Gay Pride"?


I have this Facebook friend who is very big on gay pride.

Thing is, to me, pride is something you have done. An accomplishment. He earned a masters degree. THAT was an accomplishment to have pride in. He has been successful in a difficult career. THAT is also something to have pride in. Somebody winning a gold medal or overcoming cancer, I can see wanting to celebrate pride in that.

But just being gay? I mean, why? I dont think he even had it hard coming out to family. Plus he was a darn good looking guy so I dont think he had any problem finding a relationship.

Where is the trophy, diploma, or medal for being just what you say you are?
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:37 AM
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Total trainwreck and thread-closing in 15 posts.
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:42 AM
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Thing is, to me, pride is something you have done. An accomplishment. He earned a masters degree.
That's one meaning; but another meaning of "pride" is the opposite of "shame."

Like the "black pride" movement of the 1960s (?), "gay pride" is a reaction against, and a repudiation of, the idea that gay people are somehow inferior, or disordered, or have something to be ashamed of, merely because of being gay.
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:57 AM
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Where is the trophy, diploma, or medal for being just what you say you are?
The accomplishment is being who you are openly in what is commonly an acutely hostile environment. That takes integrity and courage. That, IMHO is worthy of pride.

I would have no problem with your position if we were truly an accepting and understand society. In such a world, sexual orientation would essentially be a non-issue. We don't live in such a world and all too many people seem to be perfectly OK with that.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:01 AM
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I find it amusing that this ^ would have to be explained to someone who chose the moniker Urbanredneck.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-07-2019 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:02 AM
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Urbanredneck is just wondering, you know?
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:03 AM
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I admit, I have the same thoughts as the OP when it comes to the concept of national pride.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:07 AM
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I admit, I have the same thoughts as the OP when it comes to the concept of national pride.
When your nation has a history of being violently oppressed and you are struggling to peacefully overcome that oppression, it makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:15 AM
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That's one meaning; but another meaning of "pride" is the opposite of "shame."
That's what I was going to write.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:24 AM
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When your nation has a history of being violently oppressed and you are struggling to peacefully overcome that oppression, it makes perfect sense to me.
Yes, in that context it makes sense. But its often not used in that context. Anyhow, I regret the possible hijack, so back to the OP as asked.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:30 AM
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Where is the trophy, diploma, or medal for being just what you say you are?
Yours is in the mail.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:36 AM
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Urbanredneck, you know that Lee Greenwood song "God Bless the USA"? You know the part where he sings, "I'm proud to be an American"? If you can understand that line, then you should be able to understand any other "pride".

"Pride" can mean "I'm not ashamed of being in Group X, even though there are people who want me to be."

"Pride" can also mean, "I'm glad I belong to Group X, because Group X has a wonderful culture and history and I feel special belonging to it."

"Pride" can also mean, "I feel good about myself because I did X."

You are fixated on the last definition, but I'm betting you've used the other definitions in plenty of contexts without even thinking about it.
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Old 07-07-2019, 11:16 AM
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Yours is in the mail.
Are you sure? The myopic and contrived OP would indicate that he probably flunked history.
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Old 07-07-2019, 11:51 AM
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Does being openly gay in a culture where being gay has led to being criminalized, declared mentally ill, and chastised deserve to be proud? You betcha.
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Old 07-07-2019, 12:08 PM
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Like the "black pride" movement of the 1960s (?), "gay pride" is a reaction against, and a repudiation of, the idea that gay people are somehow inferior, or disordered, or have something to be ashamed of, merely because of being gay.
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Urbanredneck, you know that Lee Greenwood song "God Bless the USA"? You know the part where he sings, "I'm proud to be an American"? If you can understand that line, then you should be able to understand any other "pride".

"Pride" can mean "I'm not ashamed of being in Group X, even though there are people who want me to be."
I agree.
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Old 07-07-2019, 12:09 PM
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Nm. Not nice.

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Old 07-07-2019, 12:10 PM
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I’m having trouble believing that in 2019 someone could ask this question sincerely.
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  #18  
Old 07-07-2019, 12:16 PM
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Im having trouble believing that in 2019 someone could ask this question sincerely.
It's taking longer than we thought.
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Old 07-07-2019, 12:25 PM
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I remember after I moved to San Francisco 20 years ago when I saw the rainbow flags everywhere on Market Street during June (Pride month). I'm not gay but I felt deep pride seeing that spectacle. Not Gay pride, but pride that the main street in an American city could be festooned with symbols of Gay Pride and life just went on. It felt great.
  #20  
Old 07-07-2019, 12:27 PM
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Im having trouble believing that in 2019 someone could ask this question sincerely.
This. And taking bets that OP does not return to this thread, since he has been so thoroughly schooled already.
  #21  
Old 07-07-2019, 12:27 PM
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This. And taking bets that OP does not return to this thread ...
I was thinking that too.
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Last edited by Acsenray; 07-07-2019 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 07-07-2019, 12:28 PM
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Now, all the replies here are pretty fine. Points to Thudlow Boink for being completely direct and straightfaced in an early reply... But I'm going to give my vote to monstro. I thought the "Proud to be an American" was quite on point.
  #23  
Old 07-07-2019, 12:31 PM
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I admit, I have the same thoughts as the OP when it comes to the concept of national pride.
When asked if he was proud to be an American, the late Bill Hicks said, "I didn't have much to do with it. My parents fucked there".

Last edited by F. U. Shakespeare; 07-07-2019 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 07-07-2019, 12:41 PM
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There's a meme:

Quote:
Gay Pride was not born of a need to celebrate being gay, but rather of our right to exist without persecution. So instead of wondering why there isn't a "Straight Pride" movement, be thankful that you don't NEED one.
  #25  
Old 07-07-2019, 12:56 PM
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But I'm going to give my vote to monstro. I thought the "Proud to be an American" was quite on point.
Indeed. That was a very apt example/reference.
  #26  
Old 07-07-2019, 02:02 PM
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There's a meme:
Bingo. That nails it.
  #27  
Old 07-07-2019, 02:27 PM
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You answer your own question.


read this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
He has been successful in a difficult career. THAT is also something to have pride in.

as this:
He has been successful in a difficult culture. THAT is also something to have pride in.


and you're done.
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  #28  
Old 07-07-2019, 02:35 PM
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I’m having trouble believing that in 2019 someone could ask this question sincerely.


I disagree. I've had this discussion with people who a) genuinely don't understand the concept and b) genuinely want to be informed about it.

The answers here have been very good.
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Old 07-07-2019, 03:32 PM
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I disagree. I've had this discussion with people who a) genuinely don't understand the concept and b) genuinely want to be informed about it.

The answers here have been very good.
Canadians are such nice people.
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  #30  
Old 07-07-2019, 05:25 PM
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I came out in 1963. Back then, there was no such thing as gay pride, only gay shame. I admitted openly that I had "homosexual feelings" but was ashamed of those feelings. To embrace them would have been unthinkable back then. Nobody in the world was saying it was ok to be gay. Nobody. When we met in bars (the only place we could meet), we ran the risk of being harrassed, beaten, arrested, publicly shamed, losing our family, our jobs, even our lives... just for sitting in a bar.

Today, we have an openly gay man running for president, and an openly gay woman leading a sports team to international victories. And we recently celebrated by the millions, in cities around the world.

Just in my own lifetime we have overcome so much. Though we still have a long way to go, we have so much to celebrate and be proud of.
  #31  
Old 07-07-2019, 06:19 PM
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I came out in 1963. Back then, there was no such thing as gay pride, only gay shame. I admitted openly that I had "homosexual feelings" but was ashamed of those feelings. To embrace them would have been unthinkable back then. Nobody in the world was saying it was ok to be gay. Nobody. When we met in bars (the only place we could meet), we ran the risk of being harrassed, beaten, arrested, publicly shamed, losing our family, our jobs, even our lives... just for sitting in a bar.

Today, we have an openly gay man running for president, and an openly gay woman leading a sports team to international victories. And we recently celebrated by the millions, in cities around the world.

Just in my own lifetime we have overcome so much. Though we still have a long way to go, we have so much to celebrate and be proud of.
You gave me chills. Well done, you.
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Old 07-07-2019, 06:51 PM
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So, OP, do you understand it now?
  #33  
Old 07-07-2019, 08:44 PM
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I came out in 1963...
I would be fascinated to hear more about this in another thread.

Any chance of doing an "Ask the guy who came out in 1963" thread?


mmm
  #34  
Old 07-07-2019, 09:13 PM
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Indeed. That was a very apt example/reference.
It does to me to.

Although I still would rather celebrate an actual accomplishment.
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:17 PM
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Where is the trophy, diploma, or medal for being just what you say you are?
I am guessing you are under a certain age but the pride movement came out of the 1960's. At the time it was not good to be openly gay and people were shamed, today the world is different but the proud moniker has stuck.
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:32 PM
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It does to me to.

Although I still would rather celebrate an actual accomplishment.
Maybe if you had spent your life under threat of being beaten up, jailed, or murdered if someone found out about your personal life, you would celebrate being able to be open about your life in the same way everyone else is.
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:39 PM
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Although I still would rather celebrate an actual accomplishment.
Well, you seem to be perfectly willing to celebrate other people's "actual accomplishments" as something you personally feel pride in, as long you identify with those other people in some way:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck on 04-26-2017
I am proud of what so many Germans did in science, music, and the arts.
Even if you yourself haven't accomplished jack-shit in science, music or the arts, you still think you're entitled to be proud of what other Germans did.

So why shouldn't gay people feel pride in what gay people as a group have accomplished and overcome, irrespective of whether or how much they themselves have overcome hardship and/or achieved something particularly admirable?

I find it somewhat telling that you think people are entitled to have pride "just for being" of German descent, but not "just for being" gay.
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:40 PM
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Although I still would rather celebrate an actual accomplishment.
Jesus Fucking Christ. People actually surviving a society that wants to silence or hide away or kill them is an actual accomplishment.
  #39  
Old 07-07-2019, 09:55 PM
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Although I still would rather celebrate an actual accomplishment.
Is it that you don't think surviving and thriving in a hostile culture is an actual accomplishment, or that you don't think the culture was actually hostile?
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:13 PM
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The accomplishment is being who you are openly in what is commonly an acutely hostile environment. That takes integrity and courage. That, IMHO is worthy of pride.

I would have no problem with your position if we were truly an accepting and understand society. In such a world, sexual orientation would essentially be a non-issue. We don't live in such a world and all too many people seem to be perfectly OK with that.
Doubtful, to me since the "Who you are" bit is iffy to me. As for pride being the opposite of shame, it's actually it's source. Humility is the opposite of shame because it doesn't have to prove anything to anyone, pride seems like a flimsy shield to me.

For me personally Pride felt cheap and unearned. I'm supposed to be proud of something I didn't ask for and didn't earn? It felt like I just got conscripted into some kind of club I never asked to join and now I'm supposed to feel good about it? To me being gay isn't WHO I am it's WHAT I am. If won first place in a swim meet that would be pride, because it took effort and grit. Pride just seems to me like asking those in power permission to be, it's weak.
  #41  
Old 07-07-2019, 10:18 PM
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Jesus Fucking Christ. People actually surviving a society that wants to silence or hide away or kill them is an actual accomplishment.
In the "wild" that's called life, and the "prize" is you don't die that day. Living another day isn't an accomplishment.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:22 PM
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In the "wild" that's called life, and the "prize" is you don't die that day. Living another day isn't an accomplishment.
You're confusing "living" and "lasting". Completely different things, machines can do the second but never get to do the first.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:23 PM
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In the "wild" that's called life, and the "prize" is you don't die that day. Living another day isn't an accomplishment.
Sometimes living another day is a miracle. Like the OP you are sticking with one definition of "pride" and ignoring the others which play a big part of what Gay Pride is.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:30 PM
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Sometimes living another day is a miracle. Like the OP you are sticking with one definition of "pride" and ignoring the others which play a big part of what Gay Pride is.
I explained how pride is not the opposite of shame. I'm using the definition which is, if I'm being honest, the only one that matters. What gay pride is seems like just another corporate advertisement opportunity, or a costume for the world if I'm being honest. It's not a reflection of the reality of the community.

Living another day isn't a miracle, it's called life and there isn't a prize for it. In fact it could be argued that it is what life does, until it doesn't anymore.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:37 PM
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I explained how pride is not the opposite of shame.
It was a silly and arbitrary "explanation":
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce
As for pride being the opposite of shame, it's actually it's source.
Words have complex and sometimes contradictory connotations. In actual usage, being proud of something is typically considered the opposite of being ashamed of something. That fact doesn't change just because you've got a different interpretation of the relation between pride and shame that you think is inconsistent with it.
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Old 07-07-2019, 11:07 PM
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It was a silly and arbitrary "explanation":

Words have complex and sometimes contradictory connotations. In actual usage, being proud of something is typically considered the opposite of being ashamed of something. That fact doesn't change just because you've got a different interpretation of the relation between pride and shame that you think is inconsistent with it.
It's more like an understanding of the root of an emotion. Pride is concerned with proof or trying to convince, while humility doesn't care about proving something, it's acceptance. To me pride isn't opposing shame,while it is typically associated with that it's not. It's more like a mask. If you are trying to prove it's nothing shameful then you are still in a sense ashamed of it. The Pride celebrated in June is, to me, trying too hard.
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Old 07-07-2019, 11:22 PM
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I'm using the definition which is, if I'm being honest, the only one that matters.
Says who?
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Old 07-07-2019, 11:32 PM
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To me pride isn't opposing shame
Whereas to many other people, it is. Hence the notion of "Gay Pride" as a pushback against the pervasive cultural assumption "being gay is something to be ashamed of".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinaforce
The Pride celebrated in June is, to me, trying too hard.
But for people who do think of pride as opposing shame, it isn't. You're entitled to your own opinion, but your opinion doesn't invalidate theirs.
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Old 07-08-2019, 12:14 AM
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Whereas to many other people, it is. Hence the notion of "Gay Pride" as a pushback against the pervasive cultural assumption "being gay is something to be ashamed of".


But for people who do think of pride as opposing shame, it isn't. You're entitled to your own opinion, but your opinion doesn't invalidate theirs.
I think it does. Because to me they are trying to prove something. The way I see it if you have to prove to the world it's nothing to be ashamed of, deep down you aren't quite over it. It's not pushback, now it's just been absorbed into the mainstream. It's permitted but doesn't really change much, like most forms of social justice these days. It's another product to sell. Humility doesn't sell, but it's more powerful than pride because it doesn't seek to prove.
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Old 07-08-2019, 12:26 AM
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I explained how pride is not the opposite of shame. I'm using the definition which is, if I'm being honest, the only one that matters. What gay pride is seems like just another corporate advertisement opportunity, or a costume for the world if I'm being honest. It's not a reflection of the reality of the community.

Living another day isn't a miracle, it's called life and there isn't a prize for it. In fact it could be argued that it is what life does, until it doesn't anymore.
Yeah, ok. Tell that to Matthew Shepherd's loved ones.
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