View Poll Results: Do you think Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide?
Yes 192 59.44%
No 59 18.27%
Not sure 72 22.29%
Voters: 323. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:05 PM
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Do you think Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide?


Do you think Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide?
  #2  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:10 PM
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Yes, I do. Prisoners off themselves all of the time. It's easier to blame inattentive guards in an understaffed prison for his suicide than it is to invent convoluted conspiracy theories. Occam's Razor, and all that. The simplest theory is usually the most correct.

Last edited by cochrane; 08-12-2019 at 02:11 PM. Reason: Curse you, auto-incorrect!
  #3  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:39 PM
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I am willing to accept that conclusion from a reasonably well conducted investigation. That there’s going to be people out there who will refuse to trust ANYTHING official, I can’t help that.

(Which does not preclude a situation of his keepers having decided “I’m not going to put much effort into keeping this waste of skin alive”. )
  #4  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:46 PM
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Damn. I voted NO by mistake.

I do think he killed himself. I also think it was intentionally made possible for him to do so.
  #5  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by TreacherousCretin View Post
I do think he killed himself. I also think it was intentionally made possible for him to do so.
I think the poll should have had two options. One for a unexpected suicide and one for somebody intentionally making it possible for him to commit suicide.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 08-12-2019 at 02:48 PM.
  #6  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:49 PM
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Yes, but not because of his feeling any sort of guilt or remorse after all these years. I suppose suicide was more compelling than having to go through the trial and continued humiliation. He might have done it as his final "fuck you" to all those who would use him for information and then lock him up for the rest of his life.
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  #7  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TreacherousCretin View Post
Damn. I voted NO by mistake.

I do think he killed himself. I also think it was intentionally made possible for him to do so.
I am in line with all of this, except the voting No by mistake part.

Last edited by bobot; 08-12-2019 at 02:51 PM.
  #8  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:56 PM
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I wish this vote was public.

I voted that he killed himself.
  #9  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:01 PM
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There was so much seemingly deliberate action by the jail that just screams "murder".

But this is often the case when you start looking at such things. Odd thing after odd thing seem to pile up. That is practically to be expected.

The tired-of-conspiracy-theories person in me says it was just ultra sloppy prison stuff and a mentally disturbed person who always wanted to do Certain Things all the time and now couldn't.

I'm keep thinking of the scene in Godfather II when Tom talks to Frank in the prison yard, for some reason.
  #10  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cochrane View Post
Yes, I do. Prisoners off themselves all of the time. It's easier to blame inattentive guards in an understaffed prison for his suicide than it is to invent convoluted conspiracy theories. Occam's Razor, and all that. The simplest theory is usually the most correct.
Occamís Razor. I get that, in theory. But the whole Epstein saga has been crazy and bizarre, like the circus train crashed and the animals escaped. So when I hear hoofbeats, I do kind of wonder if Iíll see a zebra.
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Old 08-12-2019, 03:16 PM
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Someone may have smuggled in some nylon string and sold it to Epstein.

Could have been a corrupt guard. Or maybe the contraband was passed to him during a court date.

Otherwise I think Epstein did the rest himself.

Last edited by aceplace57; 08-12-2019 at 03:19 PM.
  #12  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:20 PM
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I don't know. I leaned towards yes before, but that was before I learned he was on suicide watch but then was taken off, which makes no sense. I need more information now.

And even if he did commit suicide, that doesn't mean there was no foul play. I could see him being told that something bad would happen and encouraged to off himself, and then the guards paid to look the other way.

The main thing is that I think that the trial needs to still happen, even if changes to a civil trial against his estate. As long as nothing is hushed up, then it really doesn't matter.

Last edited by BigT; 08-12-2019 at 03:24 PM.
  #13  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:25 PM
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Yes, I do. Prisoners off themselves all of the time. It's easier to blame inattentive guards in an understaffed prison for his suicide than it is to invent convoluted conspiracy theories. Occam's Razor, and all that. The simplest theory is usually the most correct.
ITA, and I voted yes.
  #14  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:28 PM
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Is there a lihop vs mihop division?

I think he probably killed himself but powerful people made it so that was an option for him.
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  #15  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:43 PM
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. . . the circus train crashed and the animals escaped. So when I hear hoofbeats, I do kind of wonder if Iíll see a zebra.
Very aptly described.
  #16  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:03 PM
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Yes, from me with no assistance. As mentioned, prisoners do kill themselves occasionally. Heck our infamous Colonel Russel Williams attempted suicide, but they found him in time.
  #17  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:10 PM
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Yes. As someone with major depression who has come close to killing himself numerous times in the past I can tell you that a trained professional is no match for someone who is determined to harm themselves, they are merely always playing catch-up. As a fellow patient, who eventually succeeded at killing himself, told me once “they need to always be lucky all the time, I just need to be lucky once and only for a few seconds.”

Last edited by skdo23; 08-12-2019 at 04:11 PM.
  #18  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:14 PM
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Someone may have smuggled in some nylon string and sold it to Epstein.

Could have been a corrupt guard. Or maybe the contraband was passed to him during a court date.

Otherwise I think Epstein did the rest himself.
How do you know it was a nylon cord? Epstein had a blanket and sheet in his cell since he was no longer on suicide watch.
  #19  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:55 PM
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I read that is much more common for pretrial inmates to commit suicide than those that have already been sentenced.
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Old 08-12-2019, 06:23 PM
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Misclick...one No should be a Yes.

There clearly should be an investigation. Someone who's attempted suicide once succeeding shortly afterwards calls into question preventative measures. That's different than evidence of some grand conspiracy.
  #21  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:26 PM
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I voted yes. To listen to some conspiracy-minded people, nobody has ever committed suicide in prison.
  #22  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:34 PM
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Quite obviously a case of assisted, or strongly suggested, suicide. Just like Pentangeli in the Godfather.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U89DzP8NGM4
  #23  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:42 PM
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I believe that he killed himself, but was taken off suicide watch so that he would kill himself. This order likely came from two guys in the administration whose names rhyme with "Car" and "Pump".
  #24  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:47 PM
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Yes. I don't go for conspiracy theories, and based on the information available at this point suicide seems the most likely explanation. If an investigation turns up compelling evidence that it was something else, then I will change my opinion, but in the absence of such evidence I have to believe he committed suicide.
  #25  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:27 PM
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Apparently, the jail where Epstein was held was badly understaffed, with guards working 80 hour weeks.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...ecurity-issues

I vote suicide.
  #26  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:09 PM
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Probably suicide, but I don't actually know. I'll accept the independent audit results, or whatever's happening. Pretty much, I'll ignore it, because if something is really going on, it will become big, giant, huge news, and I can react to it then.
  #27  
Old 08-12-2019, 09:38 PM
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We don't know anything yet, beyond the fact that he's dead of an apparent suicide and was found in his cell, alone. We don't even have autopsy results yet.

Like Little Nemo, I don't think it's a binary question. I draw a distinction between someone who unexpectedly kills him/herself and someone whose known inclinations in that direction are exploited and encouraged.

I am more than a little suspicious about William Barr's failure to recuse himself from overseeing this case, then going to such great lengths to spin the manner of death of Epstein even before autopsy results have been finalized. Barr squandered his credibility with his lies about the Mueller report, so far as I'm concerned. The bipartisan letter from the House Judiciary Committee demanding answers to 23 questions is a good start for investigating this matter.

I voted 'not sure.'
  #28  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:28 PM
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Yes. I don't go for conspiracy theories, and based on the information available at this point suicide seems the most likely explanation. If an investigation turns up compelling evidence that it was something else, then I will change my opinion, but in the absence of such evidence I have to believe he committed suicide.
Pretty much this for me too. I'll be happy to revise my opinion as new evidence comes to light, but for now suicide seems the most likely explanation. A rich guy faced with public humiliation and the loss of everything in his life, an overworked prison staff, a little bit of time alone with a bed sheet... presto!

I do wonder about why he was taken off suicide watch, but as someone (maybe on Twitter) said, the guy was an accomplished manipulator, so it's certainly within the realm of possibility that he manipulated the staff into thinking he wasn't a real threat to himself.

Last edited by Defensive Indifference; 08-12-2019 at 10:28 PM.
  #29  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:38 PM
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I am in line with all of this, except the voting No by mistake part.
The note vote was a thoughtless impulse. Should've given it a moment's thought, not voted for any of the three options, and then posted my opinion.
  #30  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:47 PM
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Arrested/jailed pedophile = high likelihood of suicide

He offed himself without any help. Epstein knew the government had a mountain of evidence and life in prison was the only thing in his future.
  #31  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:12 PM
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Yes, I do. Prisoners off themselves all of the time. It's easier to blame inattentive guards in an understaffed prison for his suicide than it is to invent convoluted conspiracy theories. Occam's Razor, and all that. The simplest theory is usually the most correct.

This combined with him finally facing a situation he
a) couldn't buy his way out of
and
b) was going to put him in close contact with people he wouldn't impress.
  #32  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:26 PM
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As I noted in another thread Raw Story reports that the Wall Street Journal says that Epstein's attorneys asked for him to be taken off suicide watch. Unfortunately, while Raw Story links to the Journal, the Journal is paywalled and I can't read the linked article. Anyone have access to it?

Suicide watch, as I recall, is pretty degrading and uncomfortable; perhaps that's why he his attorneys wanted him taken off suicide watch.
  #33  
Old 08-13-2019, 01:56 AM
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As I noted in another thread Raw Story reports that the Wall Street Journal says that Epstein's attorneys asked for him to be taken off suicide watch. Unfortunately, while Raw Story links to the Journal, the Journal is paywalled and I can't read the linked article. Anyone have access to it?

Suicide watch, as I recall, is pretty degrading and uncomfortable; perhaps that's why he his attorneys wanted him taken off suicide watch.
I saw a non-WSJ article (I think it was AP, but don't remember which site) that stated his lawyers asked for him to be removed. However, that in no way means that it should happen, that BoP psychologists/psychiatrists should sign off on anyone being removed & that step didn't happen. I guess you could, maybe, possibly call it a conspiracy theory, but initiated from his side.


Not that I ever would, but if I murdered someone & they offered to take the death penalty off the table in exchange for telling them where the body was as I've seen in other high-profile cases I would go the opposite way - Ensure I got the death penalty rather than spend the rest of my natural life in a small cell, with no freedom, having to think about it. Within reason, I live my life how I want, do what I want when I want. Take all of that away from me, either as a prisoner or as a quad & I wouldn't want to go on.
  #34  
Old 08-13-2019, 01:57 AM
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He did kill himself, but only because the people who wanted him silenced made it easy for him to do so.
  #35  
Old 08-13-2019, 03:00 AM
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Yes, I assume he did. He should not have been allowed to, and if there is any shenanigans, and there very well seems to be, it's in them letting it happen. But even if it's just gross incompetence, it deserves a thorough investigation on an unprecedented level, as it implies a systemic problem, considering how often it seems to happen throughout prisons (worldwide, sadly).
  #36  
Old 08-13-2019, 03:25 AM
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The thing that seems off to me that I haven't seen mentioned is the specific motivation for his suicide so soon after arrest.

I can understand that it must be a shock for a rich, seemingly bulletproof guy who had been getting away with something for so long to finally be held accountable, but he had been busted before and ended up with just the lightest of slaps on the wrist, probably giving him confidence that there would be a similar outcome this time around, and I would assume his team of lawyers were pumping him full of false hope to keep his $$$ coming in, telling him that the case against him was full of holes and that the Powers That Be were using him as a pawn to get to his more famous, more powerful "fellow enthusiasts", and just maybe he had himself a nice little videotaped Insurance Policy that would have givien him hope that a Presidential Pardon would be forthcoming if the chips didn't fall his way.

At the very least, I can't see why he didn't want to stick around long enough to take some of his famous, equally debauched and debased Running Pardners down with him. It seems like it is human nature, at least for immature minded sociopaths, for someone who has been caught red handed to want to say, "Hey, I wasn't the only one here, what about Timmy and Jimmy and Billy and Willie?!?" like a 5 year old who doesn't think that it is fair for him being singled out for punishment when dozens of his friends also enjoyed a furtive trip to the forbidden cookie jar.

He had no wife or children who could be threatened to make him hang it all up, so it does seem out of character for someone with an ego like this to fold his hand so early in the game.

Last edited by Royal Nonesutch; 08-13-2019 at 03:27 AM.
  #37  
Old 08-13-2019, 03:38 AM
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Yes. People seriously underestimate the degree to which the justice system can behave with reckless indifference toward the people in its care.

I think there's also a lot of wishful thinking about the nature of his connections, with people taking for granted that this case was going to bring down dozens or hundreds of powerful men (especially powerful men from the opposite political party of whoever was talking about the case), so of course there were shadowy forces out there trying to kill him. It was turning into QAnon for news junkies IMO.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 08-13-2019 at 03:40 AM.
  #38  
Old 08-13-2019, 05:13 AM
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I voted "Not Sure" - it's entirely plausible that he killed himself (on his own or with "prompting") given what he was facing, but if even some of the stories about him are true there were a lot of powerful people (not all American) who stood to have their dirty little secrets revealed. So suicide or murder are both plausible explanations.

I'm not sold on the whole "He's not really dead; this is all a coverup and he's been spirited away" story, however. Far easier and less risky for Epstein to be really dead.
  #39  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:17 AM
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I voted not sure, but what I really think is that he was permitted to commit suicide.
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Old 08-13-2019, 08:32 AM
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Definitely. Do I think the jail set up his circumstances so he would be able to commit suicide? You betcha.
  #41  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:01 AM
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Latest reports claim a bedsheet tied to the bunk bed killed Epstein.

That seems odd because I saw other reports claiming prisoners were supplied with sheets that would easily tear. Eliminating the suicide risk.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost....et-source/amp/
  #42  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:04 AM
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I find it hard to believe that him being dead would meaningfully protect anyone whose secrets he's been harboring. He either already squealed all he was gonna squeal, or he has video/documentation that the FBI will find anyway. Since killing him to keep him silent seems futile, and since he had every reason not to spend the rest of his miserable life getting assaulted in prison, suicide seems far more likely.

In that vein, I don't understand what you're all saying about "the prison allowed him to commit suicide." Unless you buy into the murder angle, what's in it for the prison?
  #43  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:06 AM
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I do believe he committed suicide. I am open to the possibility that circumstances were such he would be allowed to commit suicide, beyond negligence.
  #44  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I think the poll should have had two options. One for a unexpected suicide and one for somebody intentionally making it possible for him to commit suicide.
I think first we should ask, "Do you believe Jeffrey Epstein is dead?"
  #45  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:36 AM
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I voted not sure. Conspiracy theories aside, it is possible that he simply got into a fight with another inmate and was murdered.
  #46  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:49 AM
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I agree with the consensus, he killed himself, but things were lined up to give him the opportunity - off suicide watch, substitute guard not following protocol and no roommate when there was supposed to be one is just too many coincidences.
  #47  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:07 AM
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I'm reminded of Hanlon's Razor:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanlon
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Why was he taken off of suicide watch? Eh, he convinced the officials that he had a weak moment that lead to his first attempt, and now he's got his head screwed on straight. With regard to a patient's state of mind, doctors can only know what the patient is willing to tell them. Also, maybe he really was feeling OK, until that latest news broke last Friday, at which point he may have realized he was well and truly fucked.

Why wasn't his cell being checked on a regular basis like it was supposed to? As a consultant on the news pointed out the other day, "what prison guards do and what they're supposed to do are usually two very different things." There are all kinds of disasters that have been caused by people not following prescribed protocol; a prisoner intent on killing himself in prison doesn't require any nefarious intent/assistance from third parties.

And so what if a cell really is being checked every thirty minutes? ISTM that still leaves you with a thirty-minute window in which to rig something up.
  #48  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:34 AM
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I don't go for conspiracy theories (except for well-sourced plausible ones like the CIA's role in the ascendency of abstract expressionist art), but when a person who could implicate so many powerful folks commits suicide in police custody, it doesn't take a conspiratorial mindset to suspect that something foul was afoot.

When (at least) one of the aforementioned powerful folks came up in a field like New York construction, suspecting something other than suicide is a bit easier as well.
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  #49  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:54 AM
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I think first we should ask, "Do you believe Jeffrey Epstein is dead?"
This just in: Jeffrey Epstein is still dead.
  #50  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:14 AM
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I think first we should ask, "Do you believe Jeffrey Epstein is dead?"
If the Death-Mistress says he's dead, he's dead.
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