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Old 09-12-2019, 07:14 PM
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Observations of the 3rd Democratic Debate


My first impression: Yang is buying votes? Raffling off votes?


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Old 09-12-2019, 08:00 PM
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September Dem Debate


Surprised to see no thread for this, so Iím starting one.

Good debate so far, but Castro really came across as mean and nasty. I felt that way when he attacked Beto, but I thought maybe I was just biased.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:30 PM
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Yeah, I'm glad Julian got some boos and pushback from other candidates after that ageist attack on Biden. Screw him, the petty asshole.

I feel like Harris works a little too hard to come up with clever lines for these things, and then laughs a little too hard and feels a little too smug after delivering them.

I think Beto is a better candidate than he comes across in these debates. I kinda wish he was doing better in the polls.

Warren needs to stop dancing around the question of whether middle class taxes will go up with her healthcare plan. She never gives a direct answer, even though she's been asked this repeatedly. She needs to find a clearer answer and own it.

I still like Booker's intensity, but I think he turns things back to race too often.

Biden has some fire in his belly tonight, I'll give him that. Plus no blood in his eye so far. I don't think he's done himself any harm so far.

Just some quick thoughts from my phone.

Last edited by Happy Lendervedder; 09-12-2019 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:44 PM
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Man, Kamala is bugging me. I'm watching on a delay so maybe she'll improve, but that laugh at Joe was awful. She's trying way too hard to have another moment. She's coming across as very insincere to me.

Beto is having a good night so far. Warren isn't getting much time.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:45 PM
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O'Rourke: "Hell yes we're going to take them," when asked if he supported confiscation of AR-15/AK-47 type rifles.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:45 PM
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My 19yo ultralefty son inhabits some strange political universe I don’t comprehend. He texted me:


Quote:
Are you watching the debate? Castro is on FIRE!


I think Beto comes across great in the debate: a new RFK with a more appealing accent.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:56 PM
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My 19yo ultralefty son inhabits some strange political universe I donít comprehend. He texted me:






I think Beto comes across great in the debate: a new RFK with a more appealing accent.
I'm wondering about other candidates building up Beto, seems kind of counter-intuitive. Now, I know that when you tear down another candidate in a field this large it doesn't necessarily benefit you. Maybe folks are boosting Beto in hopes that it will cost other candidates support. I don't know.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:58 PM
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Warren needs to stop dancing around the question of whether middle class taxes will go up with her healthcare plan. She never gives a direct answer, even though she's been asked this repeatedly. She needs to find a clearer answer and own it.
Yeah, really. I think the public is capable of understanding that under such a scheme, taxes may go up while overall costs (such as premiums, co-pays yada yada) in aggregate go down.

What the heck is up with Bernie's voice, by the way? Got quite the frog in his throat.

On a final note, I'm beginning to think that there is an inverse relationship between the clarity of one's debate points and the number of times they say "Let me be clear on this..."

Last edited by El_Kabong; 09-12-2019 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:05 PM
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I don't understand how anyone could think that a guy who just outright claimed that he was in favor of involuntary confiscation of any type of firearm that was legally purchased and owned - not a buyback but an outright confiscation, presumably backed up by door-kicking - could have political legs in a general election. That's the GOP's wet dream, to run against someone who says things like that.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:17 PM
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Biden just said "my deceased wife is a teacher", a few seconds before urging people to "keep the record player playing for their kids".
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:20 PM
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Yeah that was pretty incoherent.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:23 PM
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Biden looked high or something. Dang, I want Bernie just for the laughs. He looks like a mad scientist.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:24 PM
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I love 'em all. Every one of them has 100 times more brain power, class, experience and qualifications than the current occupant of the Oval.

I've been especially impressed tonight with Klobuchar, Buttigieg and Booker. None of them will get the nomination, but I'm comforted to know they are in our boat and rowing in the same direction.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:27 PM
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I missed quite a bit of it, but have been listening on the radio for about 45 minutes and my useless hot takes are:
  • Mayor Pete is calm, cool, clear and collected.
  • Yang is so far out of his depth I'm surprised he doesn't have the bends.
  • Warren is passionate but clear, concise and on point.
  • Biden is defensive and rambling.
  • Haven't heard much from Booker, but I liked what I heard.
  • Bernie was drilled by his staff to constantly highlight how much he disagrees with Biden about everything and it's transparent and ham-fisted.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:28 PM
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LMFAO. "Senator Biden, we'll start the clock again." [screams of protestors continue for another 10 seconds.] What were they saying, exactly?
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:29 PM
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Biden is rambling incoherently. I have no fucking idea what he just attempted to say.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:34 PM
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Something ain't right about Biden.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:38 PM
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The question was also an easy pitch for him with his family tragedies. Not good at all.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:44 PM
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These candidates are awful. They make me sorely miss Inslee, Bullock, Gabbard, even the Z-list guys like Delaney and Bennet. It's actually amazing to me how much WORSE this debate has seemed without the bush-league candidates who didn't make the cut, rather than better. I do not have faith that any of these people can beat Donald Trump. I like Castro, Booker, and Buttigieg but I know goddamn well that none of them are going to get the nomination.

This isn't going to be pretty.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:49 PM
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I really think that any one of these candidates will beat trump............or not. I don't think that any of them will do that much better (or worse) than any other of them would.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:58 PM
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From this vantage point, it went on for about an hour and a half too long.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:02 PM
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From this vantage point, it went on for about an hour and a half too long.

No shit!


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Old 09-12-2019, 10:03 PM
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Biden is rambling incoherently. I have no fucking idea what he just attempted to say.
I was fervently- FERVENTLY!!- praying they would just cut his mic.

My top three prior to the debate:
1. Biden
2. Warren
3. Harris

My top three after it:
1. Warren
2. Booker
3. O'Rourke
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:03 PM
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What a mess.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:05 PM
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These candidates are awful. They make me sorely miss Inslee, Bullock, Gabbard, even the Z-list guys like Delaney and Bennet. It's actually amazing to me how much WORSE this debate has seemed without the bush-league candidates who didn't make the cut, rather than better. I do not have faith that any of these people can beat Donald Trump. I like Castro, Booker, and Buttigieg but I know goddamn well that none of them are going to get the nomination.

This isn't going to be pretty.
Seriously? I enjoyed them all immensely*. And any of them is easily less of an illiterate asshole than Trump.



* okay, Klobuchar, my Yale ‘82 classmate, is slightly full of shit. Castro is a prick. But Sanders is still closest to my personal philosophy, Harris and Warren captured my heart, Biden was okay, and Beto, Buttedgeedge, and Booker cheered me up.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:06 PM
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Yang’s opening statement had me ROFL

Klobuchar, I think, had just said “We have a president who runs this country like a game show host.”

Moments later....

Yang: “And I’m gonna give away $1000/month to ten families watching this debate tonight! Woo!!”
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:11 PM
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According to a FB friend, here's a transcript of his comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Biden
Biden: “Well, they have to deal with—look, there’s institutional segregation in this country. And from the time I got involved, I started dealing with that. Red lining, banks, making sure we are in a position where — look, you talk about education. I propose that what we take is those very poor schools, the Title I schools, triple the amount of money we spend from $15 to $45 billion a year. Give every single teacher a raise to the equal raise of, getting out—the $60,000 level. Number two, make sure that we bring in to help the teachers deal with the problems that come from home. The problems that come from home, we need — we have one school psychologist for every 1,500 kids in America today. It’s crazy. The teachers are — I’m married to a teacher, my deceased wife is a teacher. They have every problem coming to them. We have to make sure that every single child does, in fact, have 3, 4 and 5-year-olds go to school. School. Not day care, school. We bring social workers in to homes and parents, to help them deal with how to raise their children. It’s not that they don’t want to help, they don’t know quite what to do. Play the radio, make sure the television — excuse me, make sure you have the record player on at night, the phone — make sure that kids hear words, a kid coming from a very poor school — a very poor background will hear 4 million words fewer spoken by the time they get there. There’s so much –“

Moderator: “Thank you, Mr. Vice president. “

Biden: “No, I’m going to go like the rest of them do, twice over. Okay? Because here’s the deal. The deal is that we’ve got this a little backwards. And by the way, in Venezuela, we should be allowing people to come here from Venezuela. I know Maduro. I’ve confronted Maduro. Number two, you talk about the need to do something in Latin America. I’m the guy that came up with $740 million, to see to it those three countries, in fact, changed their system so people don’t have a chance to leave. You’re all acting like we just discovered this yesterday. Thank you very much.
I know that verbatim transcripts can make you sound dumb, but goddamn.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:18 PM
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Biden can be eloquent when he is speaking, but he gets a bit flustered when attacked.

I think we've seen the last of Castro. His attacks were uncalled for and mean. Suggesting that Biden is senile? Really? Not that he wouldn't make a good Veep.

Buttigieg is thoughtful, lucid, and offering actual solutions, unlike Kamala Harris, who seems unable to say anything other than "We need" "We should" "There needs to be". Hope is not a strategy; what's your plan? There's something about her that puts me off.

I like Klobuchar; she is solid center. She has some good ideas, but not a lot of fire.

Warren is a formidable opponent. I can see her shredding Trump in a debate forum, if he isn't too big a coward to show up for one. Bernie would also rip him apart. I don't see Biden doing well in that situation, however; hell, he didn't even do all that well against that nitwit Palin.

Yang needs to go away. The last thing we need is another businessman who thinks he can run the country.

Last edited by Chefguy; 09-12-2019 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:24 PM
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Castro was an ahole. But Biden telling people to turn on their record player for their kids made me think he has legit dementia.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:35 PM
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I don't really agree with the Biden hate, but Biden's 'this is America' retort when Sanders was talking about how we spend 2x as much on health care as any other nation was one of the most pathetic political statements I'd ever heard.

Why not just be proud and say 'this is America' when talking about how many mass shootings we have. Lots of people don't believe in American exceptionalism, and to the degree that we do lots of people believe America is exceptional at bad things amongst peer wealthy democracies (mass violence, plutocracy, letting bigotry destroy society, etc)
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:41 PM
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All that stuff about how many words kids hear is conflatng cause and effect anyway.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 09-12-2019 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:45 PM
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I don't really agree with the Biden hate, but Biden's 'this is America' retort when Sanders was talking about how we spend 2x as much on health care as any other nation was one of the most pathetic political statements I'd ever heard.

Why not just be proud and say 'this is America' when talking about how many mass shootings we have. Lots of people don't believe in American exceptionalism, and to the degree that we do lots of people believe America is exceptional at bad things amongst peer wealthy democracies (mass violence, plutocracy, letting bigotry destroy society, etc)
I'm not saying it was a smooth answer, but I took it to mean something along the lines of "This is America, we've got a lot more people to insure than the UK or Canada or Denmark."
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:48 PM
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Those last two Biden answers were much worse than debate one’s moment. No gotcha just huh.

I’ve moved to team Warren until proven otherwise now. I hope she proves she’s got the stuff.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:52 PM
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All that stuff about how many words kids hear is conflatng cause and effect anyway.
Slight hijack here. I agree with Joe on this one. I do some volunteer tutoring and I tell kids that words are the "atoms" of thought and speech. And that the more words that you have in your verbal "chemistry set" the more complex the thoughts that you are able to formulate in your head and articulate out of your mouth.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:09 PM
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Sure, but it’s the genetics you get from your parents that matter more than the number of words you hear. It’s just that if your parents gave you good genes for intelligence, they also are likely to use a lot of vocabulary words themselves.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:12 PM
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Biden's stream of consciousness is starting to sound like Trump.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:13 PM
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We were spoiled by Obama. Now if our candidates aren't all quick on their feet, well-spoken, non-flubbing demigods, we are so disappointed.

All the candidates seemed decent and human to me. I'm so ready for one of those.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:48 PM
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Moderating:

Iím moving this to Elections. There is already a thread on the debate so the mods there can close or merge if they wish.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:52 PM
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Sure, but itís the genetics you get from your parents that matter more than the number of words you hear. Itís just that if your parents gave you good genes for intelligence, they also are likely to use a lot of vocabulary words themselves.
I suppose there's some room to make the causation claim, so I just wanted to add some findings from a study to narrow down the discussion.

Study says reading aloud to children, more than talking, builds literacy

Quote:
The emphasis on talking more to children to increase their vocabularies is based on research by Betty Hart and Todd Risley at the University of Kansas. They found that parents on welfare spoke about 620 words to their children in an average hour compared with 2,150 words an hour spoken by parents with professional jobs. By age 3, the children with professional parents had heard 30 million more words than the children whose parents were on welfare. Hart and Risley concluded that the more parents talked to their children, the faster the childrenís vocabularies grew and the higher the childrenís I.Q. test scores were at age 3 and later. Since their research was published, there has been a push to encourage low-income parents to talk more to their children as a way to improve literacy.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:59 PM
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With a complete assumption that this is a clear causation arrow, no doubt without correcting for maternal IQ. I saw another similar study that found a big correlation between the number of books in young children’s homes and the likelihood they would later graduate from college. So the social scientists believed the answer was to pull up to underprivileged kids’ homes and carry in crates of books, as though those are magic talismans. Total lack of appreciation for the fact that smart parents tend to have books—and also tend to have smart kids.

To bring it back to what Biden said, if there is any evidence for interventions involving playing tapes or records of speech to young children actually having a notable impact on their later school performance, I haven’t seen it. But if such exists, I would love to hear about it and perhaps have my mind changed.
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Old 09-13-2019, 12:01 AM
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Biden seemed just fine until the last two answers. This really does fit the endurance narrative. Three hours up there was too much for him?
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Old 09-13-2019, 12:23 AM
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My first impression: Yang is buying votes? Raffling off votes?


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BTW, I agree with you about that. I hope he'll soon be out of the race for this very reason.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:52 AM
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Yang only has one policy, and itís got about as much chance of becoming law as Iíve got of becoming Glamourís Woman of the Year. He should drop out.
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Old 09-13-2019, 03:31 AM
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I'm beginning to tire of the endless dissection of differences between health insurance proposals. The first half hour or more was wasted on the same questions and answers as the last two rounds, and frankly the presidential primary is not very relevant to the outcome of any legislative fight to expand health insurance. Unless one of the candidates wants to issue a veto threat against another's plan (which I doubt any of them would do), find other topics to talk about for a while.

The same thing happened in 2008, with a long-running and acrimonious dispute between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama over whether there should be an individual mandate. It ended up being totally irrelevant to what Barack Obama (who was the anti-mandate candidate) signed into law.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 09-13-2019 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 09-13-2019, 06:31 AM
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We were spoiled by Obama. Now if our candidates aren't all quick on their feet, well-spoken, non-flubbing demigods, we are so disappointed.

All the candidates seemed decent and human to me. I'm so ready for one of those.
Mayor Pete's very quick, and he hasn't flubbed once, as far as I can remember.
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Old 09-13-2019, 06:45 AM
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I came away most impressed by Warren. Iíve posted previously that I thought Trump would beat her easily by running a Bush Sr. vs. Dukakis style campaign against her if she gets the nomination. After seeing her performance I think she would do a lot better than Dukakis did.

Castro went too far in his attacks against Biden. On the other hand I think Biden is showing signs of his age becoming a factor, which I donít see in Warren or Sanders.

Regarding Sanders, he seemed like he was constantly angry. Maybe itís just how his voice sounds now, but I think in a one on one against Trump he would turn off too many voters by coming across like that teacher who was always getting after you, even when you didnít do anything wrong.

In other words, for this voter who considers electability the main factor in my decision making, right now Iím on team Warren.
  #47  
Old 09-13-2019, 07:04 AM
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heyyyyyyy joe instead of saying no we can't how about yes we can

Wtf?

Harris didn't respond to the point in hand. The courts will strike down Executive Orders on banning guns. The courts strike Trump down when he is unconstitutional too with EOs and he throws the toys out of the pram. It has to be done through Congress.
  #48  
Old 09-13-2019, 08:18 AM
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I'm not saying it was a smooth answer, but I took it to mean something along the lines of "This is America, we've got a lot more people to insure than the UK or Canada or Denmark."
Maybe that's we he meant but it's such a bizarre argument. Yes, there are more people to insure. There are also more people to pay for it and do the work on it.
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Old 09-13-2019, 09:17 AM
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Biden's focus on the cost of MFA without noting the savings from the obsoletion of the bulk of the vastly-less-efficient private system continued this time. It's just not an honest representation. It also doesn't help him that he thinks Obamacare is the best we can do, just because it's the best he did do.

Last edited by ElvisL1ves; 09-13-2019 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:06 AM
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The same thing happened in 2008, with a long-running and acrimonious dispute between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama over whether there should be an individual mandate. It ended up being totally irrelevant to what Barack Obama (who was the anti-mandate candidate) signed into law.
I recall that she wanted people to pay for insurance and he did not.
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