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Old 10-15-2019, 06:09 AM
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Humans will never live on another planet, says Michel Mayor


Michel Mayor has just attacked a tenet of atheist mythology by stating that humans will never be able to use science to colonize celestial bodies and thus conquer the universe. (source)

I grew up in a communist society and it was really annoying to see how those in power mocked the local Abrahamic monotheistic religion while developing and promoting ad nauseam their own myths.

It is equally frustrating to listen to seemingly rational atheists rambling about humans spreading across the galaxy or creating conscious AI.

Just because one is lucid enough not to accept religion, superstition, and the like does not mean one's perspective on mankind should teem with science fiction wishful thinking. Atheism is simply lack of belief in the divine, nothing more.

My opinion is that if one were really rational and used what he or she knew about human beings, one would easily realize that Man will never colonize Mars or "the universe."
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Old 10-15-2019, 06:49 AM
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What does this have to do with atheism?

I think hes right. For all of the proclamations about the Moon and Mars, I think the notion that well ever have more than a handful of people living on something other than Earth to be just fever dreams of people who read/watch too much science fiction.
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Old 10-15-2019, 06:56 AM
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Michel Mayor has just attacked a tenet of atheist mythology...
Wait, there's an atheist mythology? That's news to me.

You say it's about the belief that humanity will propagate to other celestial bodies? How is this belief inherently incompatible with theistic religions?
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Old 10-15-2019, 06:58 AM
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I agree that we will never colonize space. I also think that the fantasy of doing so is ultimately destructive; we are treating earth as if we have a spare, when we don't. This planet is our tomb.
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:01 AM
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...What is this?

It's possible that humans will never colonize any place off of the Earth. The most likely scenario where this would happen would be if we manage to drive ourselves extinct in the near future (or at least destroy our civilization, and we then go extinct before we can rebuild it). But I would think that theists would consider that even less likely than atheists would.

And what the heck is "atheist mythology", and how does space colonization relate to it at all?
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:05 AM
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Michel Mayor has just attacked a tenet of atheist mythology by stating that humans will never be able to use science to colonize celestial bodies and thus conquer the universe. (source)

I grew up in a communist society and it was really annoying to see how those in power mocked the local Abrahamic monotheistic religion while developing and promoting ad nauseam their own myths.

It is equally frustrating to listen to seemingly rational atheists rambling about humans spreading across the galaxy or creating conscious AI.

Just because one is lucid enough not to accept religion, superstition, and the like does not mean one's perspective on mankind should teem with science fiction wishful thinking. Atheism is simply lack of belief in the divine, nothing more.

My opinion is that if one were really rational and used what he or she knew about human beings, one would easily realize that Man will never colonize Mars or "the universe."
U mad bro?
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:48 AM
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Wait, there's an atheist mythology? That's news to me.

You say it's about the belief that humanity will propagate to other celestial bodies? How is this belief inherently incompatible with theistic religions?
I was speaking to a flat earther who believes that space is a hard shell that may act like a lense for the great light (sun). He doesn't have a good way to explain visible artificial satellites and sort of uses intentional deception of high speed high flying objects made to look like orbiting stuff, but mainly just ignore them as he can't seem to make them work in his model. He doesn't believe that planets other than earth exist and the moon is just a light, not a solid surface. Gravity just pulls down. He states that's from his observations which match what he reads in the KJ version of the Bible. He seems to have friends who share that believe so there is the opportunity to say it's incompatible. However he does leave open the possibility of other places to exist such as Hell and Heaven, Heaven leaves open the possibility of other places that man has visited with divine help.
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:52 AM
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As for atheist mythology, it seems like the generalized belief that scifi creations inspires people/children, some of who become scientists to create these things - being on a subconscious path to do so. However we run into the same argument of atheist/theist what is the source of inspiration of the scifi writer? Is it solely in the person, is that person being guided, is that inspiration direct from God since everything is from God.
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:55 AM
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...a tenet of atheist mythology ...
This is quite a strange phrase. Atheists don't believe in a "god" as religious people do. How's that a mythology?
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:57 AM
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Atheist mythology? What the fucking christ?
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:03 AM
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Please. All you need is self-replicating spaceships capable of manufacturing living proteins, and we'll settle the entire galaxy within 10 million years - 20 max.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:09 AM
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Also, fuck you, Michel Mayor. You're a scientist. Your job is to tell humanity what we can do, not what we can't.

Last edited by Alessan; 10-15-2019 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:11 AM
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...He states that's from his observations which match what he reads in the KJ version of the Bible. He seems to have friends who share that believe so there is the opportunity to say it's incompatible.
OK, so it may be incompatible with one particular monotheistic religion. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the fact that that particular religion is theistic, and it does not follow that it must be incompatible with all theistic religions. IOW, the mythology described by the OP is not inherently an atheistic mythology.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:28 AM
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Atheist mythology? What the fucking christ?
The problem is that no one shows up for the meetings, so we can't get the word out.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:43 AM
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I don't believe in meetings.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:46 AM
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The problem is that no one shows up for the meetings, so we can't get the word out.
Yeah but the atheists meet the same night my people-who-don't-collect-stamps group meets.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:18 AM
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In Atheist Mythology, the Creator is called No Body.

In the Beginning, No Body causes the Big Bang, from which the entire history of the Universe begins (as recounted in the Hymn of The Big Bang Theory, chanted by the Nude Women). Then No Body created the Earth, and all the Animals, and finally Man, taking more than seven days. In this he was aided by the angels Darwin and Wallace, along with Darwin's pet Bulldog, Huxley.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:28 AM
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We have now been informed of this by the Mayor Loonytown.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:47 AM
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I don't believe in meetings.
I not only believe in meetings, but I can prove to you that they exist. Stop by my office this afternoon just before 2, and I'll be glad to show you one.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:51 AM
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Please. All you need is self-replicating spaceships capable of manufacturing living proteins, and we'll settle the entire galaxy within 10 million years - 20 max.
Piece of cake, right? (Underlining mine.)
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:53 AM
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Also, fuck you, Michel Mayor. You're a scientist. Your job is to tell humanity what we can do, not what we can't.
So the job of scientist is to be a more educated and less sexy cheerleader?
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:00 AM
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I would simply note that "never" is a very long, long time and, as Thomas Edison said (attributed to him at least): "We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything." (OK, with our advancements since then, maybe were up to two-millionth, three-millionth at the outside).

Just saying.

End of line.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:00 AM
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Piece of cake, right? (Underlining mine.)
It's definitely centuries in the future - but it doesn't violate any laws of physics, does it? The slow seeding of humanity across the galaxy over a period of eons is, potentially, well within our capabilities.


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So the job of scientist is to be a more educated and less sexy cheerleader?
Their job is to solve problems, not to say they can't be solved.

Last edited by Alessan; 10-15-2019 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:22 AM
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Guess I missed out on my atheist mythology, where do I find this? Can I just make shit up like religious people do?


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I not only believe in meetings, but I can prove to you that they exist.
Yeah, they exist, but are they "real"?

I have been in a meeting about whether we were spending too much time in meetings*, at one point the discussion was about the effectiveness of the current meeting (and was a further layer of meta meeting required? (a meeting about meetings about meetings...)) I think space-time may have folded on itself at this point.

* F@cking "agile" development.



PS [To be read in Miranda Hart's voice]I've said "meeting" too much now, is that a real word? Mee...ting...
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:27 AM
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This clip from Babylon 5 is quite on topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA2LjpfTcdg

There was also a great quote that I can't locate saying that there will be two kinds of species. The ones that do travel beyond the planet of their origin and the one that make the practical decision and stay home. The former will explore the graveyards of the later.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:29 AM
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Their job is to solve problems, not to say they can't be solved.
We're so close to solving that pesky perpetual motion problem.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:32 AM
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There was also a great quote that I can't locate saying that there will be two kinds of species. The ones that do travel beyond the planet of their origin and the one that make the practical decision and stay home. The former will explore the graveyards of the later.
Might have been this XKCD comic, which includes the following mouse-over text:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Munroe
The universe is probably littered with the one-planet graves of cultures which made the sensible economic decision that there's no good reason to go into space--each discovered, studied, and remembered by the ones who made the irrational decision.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:51 AM
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Yes, that was it. I did locate it and came back to post it, but you'd beaten me to it.

And Telemark, if someone wants to try to build a perpetual motion machine, I say let 'em try. They might come up with something useful.

My dad used to say: "Aim at the sky and you might hit the fencepost, aim at the fencepost and you'll hit the ground."
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Old 10-15-2019, 11:09 AM
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a tenet of atheist mythology


what the fuck?
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:02 PM
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Their job is to solve problems, not to say they can't be solved.
So scientists should be figuring out how to go faster than 300,000kps, rather than saying we can't do it.

Gotcha.
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:08 PM
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* F@cking "agile" development
Seconded.

If there's any word whose corporate-speak use I've come to absolutely hate, it's "agile." Where I am, it's accompanied by a lack of interest in making our basic processes work well, but we're gonna do new and exciting things despite that, because we're 'agile.'

Even talking about it makes me want to vomit into my trashcan.
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:08 PM
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Also: who the fuck is Michel Mayor and why should I care what he says?
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:10 PM
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Seconded.

If there's any word whose corporate-speak use I've come to absolutely hate, it's "agile." Where I am, it's accompanied by a lack of interest in making our basic processes work well, but we're gonna do new and exciting things despite that, because we're 'agile.'

Even talking about it makes me want to vomit into my trashcan.
Is the problem that you aren't empowered enough? Perhaps you could leverage some synergy.
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:11 PM
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Is the problem that you aren't empowered enough? Perhaps you could leverage some synergy.
Only if you leverage it in alignment with our core values going forward
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:13 PM
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is the problem that you aren't empowered enough? Perhaps you could leverage some synergy.


.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 10-15-2019 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:16 PM
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Also: who the fuck is Michel Mayor and why should I care what he says?
He was the scary dude in all the Halloween movies.
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:22 PM
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Michel Mayor has just attacked a tenet of atheist mythology by stating that humans will never be able to use science to colonize celestial bodies and thus conquer the universe. (source)

"
Tell us some more about these "tenets of atheist mythology"

Is there a book? Some kind of list at least?
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:40 PM
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It really doesn't matter if some humans do escape this solar system and find a habitable planet elsewhere. Only an extremely tiny fraction of the descendants of those living now will be among those who leave.

But 99.999% of our collective descendants after the era of such travel begins, will still live here. The notion of space travel as a solution for the mess we're making of this world is completely wrongheaded. And no matter what sort of mess we make of this planet - via global warming, nuclear war, whatever - it will still be more habitable for humans than any planet our spacefaring descendants are likely to run into out there.

The real question for the long term is, how many people will our planet be able to support after we get through messing it up, and at what level of technology and comfort? But humans are tough critters. The remains of prehistoric humans are found in some of the least habitable corners of the earth. Our race will survive here, it just may not be nearly as easy for them as it is for us.
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:47 PM
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Please. All you need is self-replicating spaceships capable of manufacturing living proteins, and we'll settle the entire galaxy within 10 million years - 20 max.
Which leads to the fundamental question--if it is so possible, where is everybody? If it is so inevitable, why hasn't the galaxy already been settled by lots of other species? Maybe--you think--because it is harder than escapist space fantasy stories make it look?
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:51 PM
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Unless we can learn how to terraform a planet so that we can live on it the way we live on earth, it would simply be too difficult and costly to maintain more than a large research station on even a planet as close as Mars, much less on any of the large satellites circling the outer planets. Populate the galaxy? Right now, it would take us ten thousand years to reach even the nearest star.
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:59 PM
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Okay, other people have made the jokes so I'll play it straight.

If this theory disproves anything, it disproves religion. Pretty much all religions say that humans are the center of creation and the universe was created for our use.

So if science shows that pretty much the entire universe is uninhabitable by humans, it's a direct line of evidence that we're nothing special in the universe. The universe as a whole exists for reasons that have nothing to do with human beings. There's no God that created humans and then built a universe around us.
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Old 10-15-2019, 01:09 PM
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Which leads to the fundamental question--if it is so possible, where is everybody? If it is so inevitable, why hasn't the galaxy already been settled by lots of other species? Maybe--you think--because it is harder than escapist space fantasy stories make it look?
First of all, I'm not sure I like your tone, with "escapist space fantasies." Without escapist fantasy, we'd have no science, no culture, no nothing. Without imagining the impossible, we'd just be a bunch of apes slamming rocks together.

Second of all, maybe we're the first. Someone has to be, right? We have no idea how common the conditions for the creation of intelligent life are. Just like all life on Earth has descended from a single cell, all intelligent life in the galaxy will be descended from a single planet.
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Old 10-15-2019, 01:16 PM
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It really doesn't matter if some humans do escape this solar system and find a habitable planet elsewhere. Only an extremely tiny fraction of the descendants of those living now will be among those who leave.
But I don't care about my direct descendants; honestly, at the scale we're talking about, I don't care about anyone alive - after all, we'll all be dead within a century or so anyway. What I care about is the continued long-term existence of the human race and human civilization. A million years from now, I want there to be people, even people very different from us, and I want them dispersed so far and wide that no single event can wipe them all out. Is that too much to ask? Because if we all stay here, sooner or later we'll be wiped out, no matter what we do.
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Old 10-15-2019, 01:19 PM
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He also says that we might be able to go to Mars in 50 years, but it would take centuries to reach Jupiter. So you can see how good he is at understanding space travel.
He reminds me of the scientists quoted in books by Clarke and others I read 55 years ago who thought space travel and going to the moon was hogwash. Perhaps Mayor has never read of ways to get to other stars without ftl travel?

BTW Mayor does not discuss god at all, so "atheist mythology" seems to have been inserted by the OP for no reason I can see. Maybe Mayor is an atheist - that would be amusing, if irrelevant.
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Old 10-15-2019, 01:20 PM
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So scientists should be figuring out how to go faster than 300,000kps, rather than saying we can't do it.

Gotcha.
...Yes?

I mean, you shouldn't waste resources on dead-end avenues of research, but if at some point in the future, evidence appears that suggests it might be possible, shouldn't you follow it, just in case?
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Old 10-15-2019, 01:22 PM
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What does this have to do with religion or atheism? ISTM the issue of whether humans will live on another planet or not is entirely about technology and the practicality/feasibility of the matter.
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Old 10-15-2019, 01:36 PM
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What I care about is the continued long-term existence of the human race and human civilization.
Why? We are the most destructive plague this planet has ever seen--why want us to destroy every other living planet in the galaxy?
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:05 PM
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... There's no God that created humans and then built a universe around us.
Well, that's one mythology.
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:16 PM
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Which leads to the fundamental question--if it is so possible, where is everybody? If it is so inevitable, why hasn't the galaxy already been settled by lots of other species? Maybe--you think--because it is harder than escapist space fantasy stories make it look?
Or maybe because we're the first intelligent species to arise. Hey, somebody has to be. (I've heard a theory that explains how this might have happened involving the unlikely occurence of us having a moon so large compared to Earth. That it "stirred the soup" making the initial stages of evolution occur much more rapidly than would otherwise be the case.) I've also heard the theory that intelligence is great for short-term survival, but not long-term survival of a species. You get smart enough and "Boom". (There's always a "Boom".) There could even be a formula saying in essence that a species gets so many years after the discovery of nuclear fission to get space bound or it goes extinct.
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:30 PM
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This clip from Babylon 5 is quite on topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA2LjpfTcdg

There was also a great quote that I can't locate saying that there will be two kinds of species. The ones that do travel beyond the planet of their origin and the one that make the practical decision and stay home. The former will explore the graveyards of the later.
Robert Heinlein, is that you?
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