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Old 10-15-2019, 08:23 PM
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Debate 10/15/19


Biden with a surprisingly weak response on ethics.

Warren persistently refusing to answer the question about taxes on MfA. Pete is right here.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:25 PM
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Oh good, another big chunk of debate time lost to bitching about whose impossible-to-pass healthcare bill is better. *snooze* The idea that the presidential primary has some big impact on healthcare is bizarre. (Best case, Joe Manchin gets veto power over any bill. Worst case, Mitch McConnell does. It's all pipe dreams.)

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 10-15-2019 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:27 PM
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100% agree. Just answer the question. Pete has been the only one to consistently do this.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:33 PM
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Klobuchar knocked it out of the park. Sanders is showing the energy he needs to show. Warren is not weathering being called out well at all. Biden is the same meh performance he’s been.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Warren persistently refusing to answer the question about taxes on MfA. Pete is right here.
I agree, and while I generally support her, it was frustrating to see her evade. That said, it's a gotcha question. Obviously if your taxes go up $1000 but your health care costs go down $2000, you come out ahead. Insisting "but will taxes go up? But will you raise taxes? Come on, say whether or not you will very specifically raise taxes out of context!!" is just ridiculous.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:38 PM
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Biden campaign is lost.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:44 PM
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Biden will stay exactly where he is.

Right now at least, based on the debate so far, Warren’s rise looks to stall. “I have a plan” starts to become a vocal tic. Some lower levels will I think poach back from her. Including even Yang, who I despise. And Booker. Not Beto.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:45 PM
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Is it just me, or does Corey Booker resemble Luther, Obama's anger translator? I think it's the eyes.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:46 PM
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Healthcare is actually an ideal topic for one of those dumb raise-your-hand questions. "Would you veto 'Medicare for All'?" "Would you veto 'Medicare for All who want it'?" "Would you veto whatever Joe Biden's thing is called?" On and on down the line. That's the president's actual job. (The same thing happened in 2008, when whether there should be an individual mandate for health insurance was one of the most important questions of our times, and your vote in the primary was THE thing that would decide that question. It turned out that the anti-mandate candidate was more than happy to sign a mandate!)

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 10-15-2019 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:49 PM
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Lord Feldon, are you someone who believes that healthcare is not a right?
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:51 PM
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For fucks sakes Joe!!! I love you, but get your statements right! I know what you mean, but come on.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MaxTheVool View Post
I agree, and while I generally support her, it was frustrating to see her evade. That said, it's a gotcha question. Obviously if your taxes go up $1000 but your health care costs go down $2000, you come out ahead. Insisting "but will taxes go up? But will you raise taxes? Come on, say whether or not you will very specifically raise taxes out of context!!" is just ridiculous.
Yeah. Dozens of TV-people love it, though, and will never let it go.

Warren needs to tie an answer into facts people understand, such as the way car insurance or fire insurance work. Yes, you might end up paying money that only subsidizes the losses of other people buying that same insurance. But having had the insurance--even if you never used it--gave you benefits nonetheless. (Stability; peace of mind; a capacity to plan for the future, etc.)

If we get to Medicare For All, in the system as a whole, some will end up paying more in taxes and won't see savings on the 'deductibles and premiums and other expenses' end because they won't get sick or otherwise need the coverage.

That seems unfair until you look at it the same way we look at car or fire insurance: you got the benefit of knowing you were covered if you needed it (even though you never did need it, or needed it less than other people do).
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:56 PM
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Senator Klobochur (so?) has decided to go on the offensive! She always sounds to me like she’s on the verge of tears when she gets emphatic.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:03 PM
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with what you just posted Sherrerd. Why can't she just say that or something similar. It is totally fair. The plan does leave out those, who misguided as they may be, want to keep their own insurance. I've had a Cadillac union health plan and I've also had Obamacare. I currently have been removed from any because of a paperwork snafu. Having options is important.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:04 PM
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Warren is clearly the one to beat, here. I think Biden is taking a nap.

Not happy with all her responses, and I'm REALLY not happy with the cheap shots getting thrown at her from the cheap seats (wow did I ever mix metaphors there)--but I'm happy that she's in that position in the first place.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:15 PM
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I agree Warren is the one to beat, but I also have noticed that she's been given an extra up to 20 seconds with no one cutting her mic. I've seen others' mics potted down.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:17 PM
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Buttigieg and Gabbard going at it over Syria is intense, and it makes me really dislike Gabbard.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:25 PM
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Is it just me, or is the constant response "the answer to THIS problem is to GET RID OF DONALD TRUMP" starting to sound somewhat petty and vindictive?

I mean he really has to go, one way or the other--but leading with that salvo every chance you get is starting to feel like it isn't playing well. It feels a little like they are delegitimizing a totally justified impeachment.

I know it's what literally needs to happen but it's starting to come across like too many people's whole campaign is "FUCK TRUMP, RIGHT?"
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:27 PM
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"So..."

"Let me be clear..."



I think I've said it all.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:28 PM
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I liked Beto to beat Cruz, but I'm not convinced that he is capable. That being said, if that's what y'all decide I'll vote for him in the general.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:36 PM
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Buttigieg to O'Rourke, during a gun control discussion: "I don't need lessons from you on courage."

Ouch, dude.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:38 PM
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That was pretty good
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:43 PM
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I hate to be that guy, but I guarantee that most of the moms, sisters, brothers, fathers that lost loved ones lost them to handguns.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:44 PM
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Literally every time Biden talks, he steps all over himself in one way or another. I'm not even saying it's a big deal--I'm just say. Literally. Every. Time. He speaks. He messes up what he's trying say.

Every. Time.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:44 PM
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Is Castro capable of answering without saying “I grew up ...”
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:44 PM
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I think Biden is doing fine, within the expectations of old fogeys like me who are inclined to vote for him. I think he's going to come out of this debate unscathed.

IMO, Klobuchar has been a stand-out tonight. So has Buttegieg.

Gabbard is like nails on a chalkboard to me. I'd still vote for her over Trump. But I'd cry while I did it. (Unlikely situation, happily.)

Bernie looks good. For Bernie.

I'm glad Warren finally got pushed on her gauzy math re health care. Her plan is a loser in a general election.

The rest haven't really moved their needles one way or another, but they're all gobs better than Trump.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:50 PM
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I have to say that although Steyer(sp?) says good words, I'm tired of billionaires wanting power.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:55 PM
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I like what Yang says on addiction, he's way too far ahead of his time. I've lived with junkies. They're gonna do what they do. It is fucked up the way the junkies were created. They should be held accountable. The money should also go exclusively to the treatment of the problems. Yang's ideas will be accepted in about twenty years in this country.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:57 PM
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Goddammit Joe! Did he forget the great depression?
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:00 PM
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Not saying they didn't do a fantastic job during the Barack Obama presidency. Just saying making that claim is giving any opponent fodder.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:00 PM
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And Gabbard once again trying to bring a shitty gotcha question at Warren. Moderator cuts her off for a commercial break. I will be pleased to be done with Gabbard.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:02 PM
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After calls for unity, that were themselves unifying, Gabbard went low and tried to attack Bernie. Only a well-timed break stopped her.

ETA: ninja'd! (was it directed at Warren? Doesn't matter.)

Last edited by KarlGauss; 10-15-2019 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:07 PM
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I'm almost positive that Mr. Yang learned all of the facts he just stated from a screen of some sort.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:11 PM
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This is the first coherent idea I've heard from Beto thus far
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:11 PM
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Whose brilliant idea was it at CNN (or NYT) to tell all the moderators to append "Please respond" to every question? SO annoying.

The trope that Beto's mandatory gun buyback plan is moot if police don't go door to door is absurd. Fully automatic weapons ("machine guns") are illegal now, but we don't send police to search everyone's house.

Pretty rich that when it comes to assault weapons, suddenly Warren is the one saying "I just want to do something achievable" or whatever it was. When people say that about single payer healthcare, she castigates them, saying we ought to be aiming high and providing leadership, rather than being defeatist. Klobuchar should have called her out for this glaring inconsistency.

ETA:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cutman74 View Post
This is the first coherent idea I've heard from Beto thus far

What specifically do you mean?
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:16 PM
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I mean that anytime we can break up price fixing monopolies, I think that is a good thing. I also think that a mandatory buyback for "assault weapons" is relatively inane and impossible.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:20 PM
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So how the hell do I start watching the debate FROM THE BEGINNING online? I've found multiple sites to watch it but none allow me to restart it from an earlier time. Not even Hulu and Sling!! Help me!
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
Oh good, another big chunk of debate time lost to bitching about whose impossible-to-pass healthcare bill is better. *snooze* The idea that the presidential primary has some big impact on healthcare is bizarre. (Best case, Joe Manchin gets veto power over any bill. Worst case, Mitch McConnell does. It's all pipe dreams.)
Yup.

Even if the democrats win big in 2020 and end up with 53 senate seats, they aren't passing meaningful health reform.

At best they'll offer more subsidies to the 3% of people who get private insurance via the exchanges.

Thats the best case scenario sadly. National democrats aren't willing to tackle health care.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:23 PM
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Booker actually found a new angle in the abortion debate: "criminalizing poverty". Great point!
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:24 PM
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I own an "assault rifle" and unlike many others, I would gladly relinquish mine, if I thought it would prevent one murder in this country. Unfortunately it won't. I also feel better owning such a weapon when we have religious righties and "militias" advocating for dragging liberals and dems through the streets. These people spouting this shit have these weapons. They're not going to give them up. I reserve, therefore, the right to defend me and mine.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:28 PM
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I live in a very red part of a reasonably blue state.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:28 PM
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The trope that Beto's mandatory gun buyback plan is moot if police don't go door to door is absurd. Fully automatic weapons ("machine guns") are illegal now, but we don't send police to search everyone's house.
There are rather severe limits and restrictions, but it's entirely legal for individuals to own fully automatic weapons.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...l-firearms-act
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:35 PM
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Exactly. And for the the reasons stated above, I would gladly jump through those legal hoops.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:35 PM
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See, there Warren goes again: "Dream big, fight hard". Why is that not the policy when it comes to Beto and Booker's gun proposals?

ETA: And it's absurd to allow anyone to own fully automatic weapons. We banned bump stocks, but don't ban those? Pfffft.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:36 PM
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Biden blew this electability segment.

But none of the three did well with it.

Pete is doing the best.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:47 PM
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I believe that I have the right to protect my family. I also believe that if, and I do mean if it comes to it, I have the right to protect my fellow citizens who don't agree with me on gun rights from maniacs that think that any yahoo should own one. Those are the ones I'm afraid of. Not the ones that have nukes. The people who target folks like Rep. Gifford and for that matter the asshole who shot up the softball game.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:54 PM
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I think that Amy was very strong tonight. Sadly I don’t think it will make a difference.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:55 PM
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My wife, who is a hardcore vegetarian. lacto but not ovo is sick of hearing about Corey being a vegan.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:59 PM
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I agree , Cat. on both points, unfortunately. I'm in Pete's camp after this. Just seems to answer the question. Instead of twisting the question to his preconceived talking points. Don't get me wrong, he has his, but he also answers the questions asked.
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Old 10-15-2019, 11:07 PM
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Joe is so much better when he's on script.
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