Straight Dope Message Board

[Les Espaces Du Sommeil]

Sorry, rambling post.

In the past month, I’ve spent a lot of time with a new female colleague. I had begun to think that she was showing some romantic interest in me. Now, it seems that I was wrong about it, but I really don’t know what to think.

She’s dropped by office almost daily since the beginning of this month. At first, she always had a legitimate professional reason to see me. It was always resolved in a matter of minutes but she would stay and chat with me for a long time afterwards. We would talk about our respective childhoods, studies and families. And laugh. A lot. She would always wait until the very last moment before a meeting to leave my office, blushing and bumping into things while doing so.

As the weeks passed, she stayed longer and longer and talked about a whole lot of very intimate things. As a matter of fact, she’s come to my office every single day this week, occasionally 2-3 times on the same day. None of her recent visits had anything to do with work. I reckon that in the past 4 days, we must have spent at least 6-7 (working) hours chatting and laughing. She has always been the one initiating contact, to the point where other colleagues started noticing.

She showed me pictures of trips with her parents on our very first conversation, mentioned that I wasn’t old at all when I remarked that I had almost 12 years on her, suggested a present for my birthday, marvelled at all the things we have in common and thanked me repeatedly for our "nice" conversations. When she heard that my mother tongue was French, she asked if it was ok if we spoke French together for her to practice (turns out she’s almost perfectly fluent). When I told her that I reacted differently depending on the language I used, she said that we should revert to English because she had to know « the other LEDS ». And did I mention that we laughed a lot ? After I few days like this I suggested we meet outside of work. She blushed again, seemed embarrassed (but not offended) and ended up saying « It depends on when ».

Over the weeks, I’ve tried to determine whether there was someone in her life. She mentioned that she was thinking of buying a flat… with her sisters. She’s had some serious health issues and said that her sisters were helping her with groceries and household chores. She stays at work until really late and comes even at times when she could work from home. No mention of a boyfriend, ever - although I did notice that she wore inconsistently something that could have been an engagement ring.

But then, a couple of hours ago, as she was talking about some serious issue she’s encountered at work, she mentioned that she « had someone ». I asked her what that « someone » thought of the situation she was describing and she flatly said « I don’t want to talk about him ». That was the first time she refused to talk to me about a particular subject. I respected her wish but I was shattered.

So women dopers, how do you read this ? See a colleague for hours at the time over weeks, share extremely intimate details, miss dozens of obvious opportunities to talk about your fiancé and then refuse to talk about him after mentioning his existence almost by accident? I’m at a loss. 1

[glee]

What would you like to happen?

If you want to have a relationship, just tell her that you like her and ask if she's free to date you. (I know you suggested that you 'meet out of work', but your intention may not have been clear to her.)

I realise that this may be a big step for you, but you're not making any progress at present.

Good luck! 2

[HoneyBadgerDC]

She sounds a little bit too aggressive considering you are at work. Is there any possible motive you can see for her to want to get close to you? Besides the normal sex thing or falling for you. I had an almost identical situation age difference and all, I was 33 and she was 21. I was married at the time and could feel myself starting to fall for her. Turns out she was a serial homewrecker that targeted older men. And she was very good at it. 3

[SmartAleq]

Sounds like she's maybe in the middle of a breakup and needing something to make her feel better--this something would be your attention. I agree that upfront is best, tell her you find her attractive and you'd like to date and is she free to do so and does she feel the same about you? Then whatever answer she gives is how you get on with it. Good luck! 4

[Kimstu]

My take: It sounds as though she's attracted to you but, for whatever reason(s), is not available or not ready to actually date you.

If your acquaintance was in a purely social context, I'd suggest pushing on the issue a bit. Tell her directly, "You know, I think you're a lot of fun and very attractive, and I'd like to go out with you. Will you join me for dinner on Friday?" or some such.

If she wouldn't give you a direct acceptance to such a direct invitation, then I'd counsel backing off because she's probably somewhat unavailable and/or confused. Relationships where two people who are quite well acquainted with each other can't easily arrive at a clear mutual understanding even on the basic matter of whether/when to have dinner together don't generally have a high success rate.

This being a co-worker situation, I advise skipping straight to step (2) above. Other colleagues are already noticing your evident interest in each other, and if you get into some kind of dating drama with lack of transparency and a possible third party involved, that's just going to make things worse. Do not even consider dating any co-worker that you can't discuss matters clearly and straightforwardly with.

I don't know what the whole deal is with your obviously attracted and inexplicably reticent co-worker, but I do know that it's inconsiderate and/or clueless of her to be making this so complicated for you. Continue to be cordial and friendly, but remember that the important thing here is that you keep in mind that she's being a bit of a mess, not that you figure out or fix exactly what the mess is. 5

[Beckdawrek]

Yeah, she's playin' you. For what reason? There are a 1000 reasons. It may not be bad or nefarious, just odd.
I'd tell her "Our co-workers are noticing you're in my office alot, maybe we should back down here at work." Add an invite for an afterwork meet up, if you want to explore it further.
Good luck. 6

[Les Espaces Du Sommeil]

Well, I got an email from her this morning, which, as a matter of fact, she had sent shortly after we parted yesterday. She thanked me again for our nice conversations in French and apologized for staying so long (because she doesn't know where to put limits when she's at ease). On the whole, it still sounded pretty neutral and non-commital.

I replied that we could indeed time our meetings better but that she was welcome in my office : I can't deny that I've grown fond of her. Fifteen minutes later I heard the door open... I was quite taken aback as I knew that she wasn't supposed to work at that hour. For her part, she knew I wasn't going to be available after the early morning. As often, she had a legitimate, but trivial, reason to be here. One thing I noticed is that she insisted a lot on my career plans (she may be younger than me but she has far more academic and professional achievements). She seemed visibly pleased to hear that I was planning to develop the more "ambitious" aspect of my job - which is true, by the way. She mentioned that we would probably see each other less in the coming weeks as she's going to be quite busy, but was still eager to see me on Monday. I really have no idea where this is all going.

I guess that my cluelessness boils down to this :

(1) The frequency of her visits. At first, I thought that she just wanted to make friends and was careful to be friendly-but-neutral. Then, I suspected that she really just wanted to practice her French. But we've seen each other for hours 8 or 9 days in the past three weeks and every single day this week. I reckon that I must have spent almost a quarter of my working hours talking to her since Monday. It would take an extrememely dedicated person to try so hard. Obviously, she likes being with me, trusts me and loves practicing her speaking skills in French but... to that extent, really ?

(2) The "mystery someone". That bothers me, of course. We've talked for hours about intimate subjects, why didn't she bring that up, even just casually ? Buying a flat (with her sisters) ? No mention of him. The help and support she gets from her relatives following her illness ? No mention of him. Needing someone to drive her back home from work when she feels weak ? No mention of him. Having children one day perhaps ? No mention of him. Not wanting to work abroad ? No mention of him. And of course her hesitation when she finally had to mention him yesterday (tip of her fingers on the bridge of nose, awkward smile, mumbling "I'm not sure I should say this") and her bluntness in asserting that she didn't want to talk about him. Why ?

(3) The suddenness of her interest (of whatever nature) in me. I first met her in the spring through her team and she barely acknowledged me. Then, I didn't see her for months and had practically forgotten about her. Come November and we suddenly have legitimate reasons to work together and in a matter of hours, she starts telling me about her life and come to my office on a daily basis. 7

[Les Espaces Du Sommeil]

Come to think of it, she's talked a couple of times about the need for some stability in her life, although she didn't really expand on that. 8

[puzzlegal]

My best guess is that she is not available to date, as she is stuck in an unhappy relationship. So she is looking for some of the things one can get from a healthy relationship (emotional sharing, laughter) but isn't free to take it any further than "office buddy". That might or might not be a conscious thing on her part.

What you should do depends on what "good outcomes" would be for you.

Do you enjoy having an office buddy?
Do you feel like she's leading you on, and you want a romantic relationship or nothing? 9

[elbows]

Confess your confusion in regards to her relationship status, and acknowledge you’re developing feelings for her. Ask for some clarity on her status. Be direct and ask if she’s just wanting a friendship or if there is any room for something else to develop.

Yes, it’s a risk. But it would be the smart thing to do in my opinion.

Good Luck. 10

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

If only there were someone who would have definitive answers to the questions you are pondering.

Actually, there is. Hint: it ain't us.

Talk to her. 11

[chela]

IAAW and to me she sounds unsettled, I'm always wary of someone who comes on strong and uninhibited in conversation at the get go. I would wonder why is she spilling her guts in such a manner, latching on and pursuing a ine of intimate conversations, it seems to have progressed rather quickly and in the workplace which is kind of weird. Ok she may genuinely have feelings for you, or she may be confused due to her personal issues which it seems she has some. Now she's being coy and backing out yet playing you still. 12

[ThelmaLou]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

If only there were someone who would have definitive answers to the questions you are pondering.

Actually, there is. Hint: it ain't us.

Talk to her.

This is what it boils down to. From what you've said about her, she may not react well (whatever well is in this instance) to a direct approach, but YOU need to take a direct approach for your own mental health. With all the attention she's giving you, the next logical step is for you to take it to the next level, namely, ask her out. She's giving you every signal that that is what she is expecting. The door is wide open. This is very flirtatious behavior IMHO.

HOWEVER if you DO take that step, invite her on an actual date, and she turns you down, then I'd press for further clarity AND back off. Is she available to date you? Office romances are such a terrible idea. (Voice of experience.) When things go bad, you can't avoid the person, and it's just icky.

Don't say stuff like, "People are noticing," etc. Make it clear what YOU want and find out if she wants the same thing. Bringing other people's opinions into it will not help your cause.

Do keep us posted. This is getting interesting... 13

[Mallard]

Some years back, I had much the same thing happen to me and given that I was 63 and she 27 (and hot) it was incredibly flattering. However, I'm married and she knew it so there were no "hints" at any form of "dating". I know she was drawn to me such that others in our office started noticing. Looking back her attraction was working with someone who "had all the answers" due to my experience. While I have to admit it was tempting there was NFW I was going to ruin my marriage.

She got a promotion to a satellite office quite some distance away to that has all went away by itself. 14

[Les Espaces Du Sommeil]

Well, I was talking to one of the persons who is on her team and who also happen to be a good friend. I asked her (not altogether innocently I must admit) how the vibe was like in the team and, without prompting on my part, she mentioned that said colleague was "talking about you all the time". She said that with a big grin which could have meant anything from : "I see that you two are really hitting it off" to "Come on, tell me what's going on !" 15

[glee]

Originally Posted by Les Espaces Du Sommeil

Well, I was talking to one of the persons who is on her team and who also happen to be a good friend. I asked her (not altogether innocently I must admit) how the vibe was like in the team and, without prompting on my part, she mentioned that said colleague was "talking about you all the time". She said that with a big grin which could have meant anything from : "I see that you two are really hitting it off" to "Come on, tell me what's going on !"

I'm sorry, but you keep avoiding just asking her!

Instead you've:

- run theories in your head
- asked female Dopers here
- asked someone on her team
- tried to interpret what the team member said

Please do NOT try:

- asking an agony column
- looking her up on social media
- consulting a psychic (not recommended)
- hacking her computer (illegal)
- secretly following her around (illegal) 16

[Grrr!]

I think the biggest favor you can do for yourself is to NOT over think this. Don't be your own worst enemy. And remember, rejection in not the end of the world.

Just ask her out. 17

[Les Espaces Du Sommeil]

Yeah, overthinking has always been my problem. I'll try and take it easy this time.

Originally Posted by glee

I'm sorry, but you keep avoiding just asking her!

Well, I may not have the chance to as she said she was going to have a lot of work soon and thus little time for our conversations, which she still wants to keep however.

Originally Posted by glee

Please do NOT try:
...
- looking her up on social media

I must admit that I idly googled her name last week. Nothing out of the ordinary, almost exclusively her academic and work experience. No picture with "someone" either.

Originally Posted by glee

- consulting a psychic (not recommended)

Not my thing.

Originally Posted by glee

- hacking her computer (illegal)
- secretly following her around (illegal)

Needless to say, those two are right out. 18

[Two Many Cats]

Either ask her out or don't, depending on how you feel about dating coworkers.

Does your workplace actually care if any work gets done? I can't imagine any office I've ever worked in being okay with a worker chit chatting away for hours on end in someone else's office day after day. Aside from romantic entanglements, it doesn't sound like she cares very much about her job. 19

[LAZombie]

Hand her your cell phone and ask her to take a flattering photo of you. She will naturally ask what it is for. Tell her it is for a dating website. This will turn the conversation in the direction you want and let her know you could be off the market if she does not act. 20

[Crafter_Man]

Originally Posted by Two Many Cats

Does your workplace actually care if any work gets done? I can't imagine any office I've ever worked in being okay with a worker chit chatting away for hours on end in someone else's office day after day.

It happens every day at my workplace.

We have a few people who do nothing but talk all day, every day. A couple of them report to me. They do not do any "real" work. They just talk, and talk, and talk...

I learned the hard way that, if you report these people, you are the problem, and you will be told to take training classes.

(Sorry for the hijack, but I'm still licking my wounds over it...) 21

[Two Many Cats]

I guess there are some places like that. I've mostly worked in small offices with the Big Boss on the premises. The Big Boss can talk all day if he wants. You, peon, on the other hand...

I'm still blown away that I'm allowed to listen to YouTube online as I work. But my work better be done, and done right. 22

[Les Espaces Du Sommeil]

To be fair, her job involves meetings and presentations, which she does attend without fail and preparatory stuff, which she can do from home (and is also the reason she stays at work until very late).

I'm sure she gets her work done. 23

[glee]

Originally Posted by Les Espaces Du Sommeil

Yeah, overthinking has always been my problem. I'll try and take it easy this time.

Just ask her out.

Originally Posted by Les Espaces Du Sommeil

I must admit that I idly googled her name last week. Nothing out of the ordinary, almost exclusively her academic and work experience. No picture with "someone" either.

See above advice.

Originally Posted by Les Espaces Du Sommeil

Well, I may not have the chance to as she said she was going to have a lot of work soon and thus little time for our conversations, which she still wants to keep however.

All you need is one minute:

Her: Bonjour, Espace. Ca va bien?

You: Look, here's the thing. I really enjoy our chats. Would you like to come on a date with me?
(then suggest something simple like coffee or visiting a museum...) 24

[bucketybuck]

My opinion is that she is using you, perhaps not consciously but using you all the same. She gets to flirt, chat, gets attention, support, all those nice little things that stroke the ego, but push come to shove she doesn't actually want anything more than that. My guess is that if you actually asked her out she would dangle you along and there would probably be lots of deep and heartfelt conversations about conflicted emotions etc etc, but that it wouldn't actually go anywhere.

Of course, a more confident man wouldn't care about my opinion and you shouldn't either. Ask her out or don't, its up to you, just don't let her live rent free in your head for so long like you are doing. 25

[RTFirefly]

Anyone else got Bonnie Raitt's "Something To Talk About" going through their heads?

Originally Posted by elbows

Confess your confusion in regards to her relationship status, and acknowledge you’re developing feelings for her. Ask for some clarity on her status. Be direct and ask if she’s just wanting a friendship or if there is any room for something else to develop.

This. It's time to find out if she's available and interested, or not. If she is, time to take the romance offsite. If she's not, I'd let her know that while you enjoy your professional relationship with her, she is coming across as interested, and while you aren't telling her to not come around, you'd like her to dial it back a bit.

Originally Posted by ThelmaLou

Office romances are such a terrible idea. (Voice of experience.) When things go bad, you can't avoid the person, and it's just icky.

There's always that risk, of course, but my office is filled with married couples who met here. The main thing is to keep any relationship drama off the premises.

ETA:

Originally Posted by bucketybuck

Ask her out or don't, its up to you, just don't let her live rent free in your head for so long like you are doing.

From the last paragraph of post #7, it sounds like this has all happened this month. If so, it hasn't been that long. But yeah, time to have that conversation and either turn it into something more, or something less. 26

[puzzlegal]

Originally Posted by bucketybuck

... don't let her live rent free in your head for so long like you are doing.

I object to that characterization. She's presumably listening to him, flattering him, paying attention to him, too.

But yes, if you want more from this relationship, the time has come to clarify the situation. 27

[Esprise Me]

I could swear I read almost this exact thread a few months ago, but now it's gone. 28

[ZonexandScout]

Put me in the "just ask her out" bin. Having a serious talk abut "clarifying" the situation sounds like something from a bad rom-com. "Would you like to go out to dinner with me sometime?" will get you all the answers you need. If she declines, fine. No more really needs to be said.

I've worked with many people to whom I have been attracted. Some of them gave indications that they wanted a meaningful FRIENDSHIP, and nothing more. Others would state, quite frankly, that they would like to, but they had other another relationship at the time. Finally, I married a co-worker (who, BTW, had been trying to set me up with her best friend...funny that). 29

[Dangerosa]

Maybe she just needs and wants a friend, and she has a naturally flirty manner around men and friendships. God knows I had that problem in my 20s. I would find a friend at work - male - someone I saw as a friend - maybe a mentor or father figure - he'd interpret my interest in him as romantic.

Assume she wants a friend. At some point you can refer to your romantic interest in her in an indirect way "I'd ask you out if it weren't for mystery man and us being coworkers ...." and see how she reacts. She might react with "mystery man is over, and I don't see why being coworkers should stop us" - or she might react with "oh.....well, there is mystery man and we are coworkers" which you should interpret as "yeah, I'm not into you that way." Or she might say the second and then ask you out in six months herself when she is in a different emotional space. 30

[ThelmaLou]

Just. Ask. Her. Out. (cf. Gordian Knot) 31

[Esprise Me]

Originally Posted by Esprise Me

I could swear I read almost this exact thread a few months ago, but now it's gone.

Thank God; I thought I was losing my mind. It came up in this thread last July:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...6&postcount=48

And therein references developments as far back as last November, with the implication being that it's been going on longer than that.

Dude.

Just.

Ask.

Her.

On.

A.

Date. 32

[needscoffee]

Don't call it a date. Just ask her if she wants go do a happy hour with snacks, or get some dinner, after work. That way, if she's been stringing you along and shuts you down, you'll save face. 33

[ThelmaLou]

Originally Posted by Esprise Me

Thank God; I thought I was losing my mind. It came up in this thread last July:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...6&postcount=48

And therein references developments as far back as last November, with the implication being that it's been going on longer than that.

Dude.

Just.

Ask.

Her.

On.

A.

Date.

Seriously?? The same guy?? From FOUR MONTHS ago? 34

[Esprise Me]

Actually, now that I reread the OP, it sounds like this is maybe a different woman? With whom OP is in the exact same situation?

Hmmm. 35

[ThelmaLou]

Is the OP writing a novel? 36

[TokyoBayer]

Originally Posted by Esprise Me

Actually, now that I reread the OP, it sounds like this is maybe a different woman? With whom OP is in the exact same situation?

Yes, in the exact same situation.

Hmmm.

You said it better than I could.

I had a rather long reply typed out, but I'd like to hear an explanation first. 37

[TokyoBayer]

From the linked thread:

I also want to point out that I've never found myself in such a situation there. I'm definitely not known to hit on my colleagues. My workplace is about 70% female and it was the very first time in my 15+ years there that I thought "OK, something's happening here."

Good to know that the pace has picked up considerable since then! 38

[Esprise Me]

Wait a minute. As of this past August, OP had a wife?

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...15&postcount=1 39

[TokyoBayer]

Originally Posted by Esprise Me

Wait a minute. As of this past August, OP had a wife?

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...15&postcount=1

They got married quickly! Then divorced! Then the next one came along! 40

[Les Espaces Du Sommeil]

No, I'm not writing a novel.

Wife and I are separating and divorcing. It's not going well. I most certainly wasn't looking for a situation like this now. My plan was to sort out everything in the coming weeks then have a clean break and new start by February.

Then said colleague comes along and initiates frequent close contact. I'll readily admit that I loved having her attention and company. I felt valued, which isn't something I've been able to say a lot in the past few years. What's that line about life being what happens when you're busy making other plans ? And for those who still want to be posted on this, she messaged me on Friday night and we've exchanged a dozen friendly and funny emails since then.

Originally Posted by Dangerosa

Maybe she just needs and wants a friend, and she has a naturally flirty manner around men and friendships. God knows I had that problem in my 20s. I would find a friend at work - male - someone I saw as a friend - maybe a mentor or father figure - he'd interpret my interest in him as romantic.

Assume she wants a friend. At some point you can refer to your romantic interest in her in an indirect way "I'd ask you out if it weren't for mystery man and us being coworkers ...." and see how she reacts. She might react with "mystery man is over, and I don't see why being coworkers should stop us" - or she might react with "oh.....well, there is mystery man and we are coworkers" which you should interpret as "yeah, I'm not into you that way." Or she might say the second and then ask you out in six months herself when she is in a different emotional space.

This is what I'll do.

I don't need drama right now, for the reasons I've pointed out. I'm sure that she doesn't either and I'd love to have her as a friend, too. If she's using me unconsciously, that's fine, because her presence and attention is also doing me a lot of good. To be clear, I wasn't really looking for advice on what to do, although they're welcome. I was asking for possible explanations for her behaviour. But thanks to you all. It feels good to write about it and reflect on your comments. I have a lot of things to process and work out.

First I'll get my life in order, then see what happens. 41

[Esprise Me]

OP, I don't think you're making this all up. But I'm really finding it hard to believe you asked this question in good faith. Surely you realized your marital status could be relevant in trying to pick apart the motives of a woman who seemed to be attracted to you but was holding back? What were you hoping to accomplish by asking us to help you make sense of a situation while holding back what might be the single most pertinent piece of information? 42

[Les Espaces Du Sommeil]

I was asking the question in good faith. But I posted a mere 2h after the "elusive someone" conversation and couldn't think clearly. Not one of my best-thought-out thread.

I think I owe you all a clarification thread. I'll try and start one soon. Again, thanks for your input. 43

[Nava]

Originally Posted by Kimstu

This being a co-worker situation, I advise skipping straight to step (2) above.

+Hell yes. 44

[Mundane Super Hero]

Originally Posted by Beckdawrek

"Our co-workers are noticing you're in my office alot, maybe we should back down here at work." Add an invite for an afterwork meet up, if you want to explore it further.
Good luck.

Someone rolls double sixes at backgammon! Nice! 45

[Sterling Archer]

You’ve gotta stop all the hinting and flirting and BE DIRECT. I would bet she is not interested in a real relationship with you, but she LOVES the extracurricular attention from you. I had a woman who came on to me just like this before. Had an on-and-off boyfriend who she never wanted to discuss and flirted and teased with me constantly. If it’s like that situation, it will never progress beyond teasing. She is using you. 46

[TokyoBayer]

Originally Posted by Les Espaces Du Sommeil

I was asking the question in good faith. But I posted a mere 2h after the "elusive someone" conversation and couldn't think clearly. Not one of my best-thought-out thread.



I think I owe you all a clarification thread. I'll try and start one soon. Again, thanks for your input.

And the woman in July? 47

[Brayne Ded]

Originally Posted by Sterling Archer

You’ve gotta stop all the hinting and flirting and BE DIRECT. I would bet she is not interested in a real relationship with you, but she LOVES the extracurricular attention from you. I had a woman who came on to me just like this before. Had an on-and-off boyfriend who she never wanted to discuss and flirted and teased with me constantly. If it’s like that situation, it will never progress beyond teasing. She is using you.

I think Sterling Archer is right. The OP says he wants no drama right now. In that case, clarify the situation with said young lady and concentrate on ending one relationship before even thinking of starting another. Unless you have an amazingly high tolerance for emotional pain and stress. Leave the drama to the thespians. 48

[overlyverbose]

Good luck, OP, both in your friendship with this woman and with your divorce.

My initial impression was that maybe she doesn't have enough to do, especially after you said that she told you that she'd be getting busy soon - perhaps she was in a lull workwise and just killing time and enjoyed your company. Anyway, I'm glad you've settled on a course of action. 49

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Sterling Archer

You’ve gotta stop all the hinting and flirting and BE DIRECT. I would bet she is not interested in a real relationship with you, but she LOVES the extracurricular attention from you. I had a woman who came on to me just like this before. Had an on-and-off boyfriend who she never wanted to discuss and flirted and teased with me constantly. If it’s like that situation, it will never progress beyond teasing. She is using you.

The OP enjoys her company, and it seems that both of them are "using" the other. And he's going through a divorce. So it seems like letting things continue as they have been is the best course for now. 50