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Old 12-02-2019, 10:56 PM
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Is Kamala Harris the most disappointing candidate ever?


In terms of her hype compared to her performance, I'd have to argue yes. Some candidates have been frontrunners and had a single stupid act derail them(Gary Hart). Others were hyped but it became evident that their party had passed them by(Jeb Bush). But I don't think I've ever seen anyone fairly young, in the mainstream of their party, supposedly the future, not the past, just freefall despite no major errors. All she did was just fail to have a message, fail to build a campaign organization, and fail to have a good understanding of the issues she was talking about.

On one hand, this should be understandable. She's a rookie candidate. Most rookie candidates fail. Historically, unless you have a big name like Clinton or Bush(and even sometimes then), you'll fail your first time and then come back 4-12 years later and win. Harris has never had to run a race where she wasn't the party anointed. And of course in California once you're the party anointed you're going to win, because the GOP is not much competition statewide. So this was her first race where she actually had to earn it with voters rather than party poobahs, and not surprisingly she didn't really have a grasp of how to do it. But on the other hand, the dysfunction in her campaign(as a result of choices SHE made), and her trying to get by primarily on her fabulousness while Liz Warren is out there trading in real policy depth was just horrible even for a rookie candidate. I can't imagine that she ever comes back and runs and gets taken seriously again.
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:04 PM
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The NY Times published an article on how it all fell apart: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/29/u...rris-2020.html
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:14 AM
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Is Kamala Harris the most disappointing candidate ever?
...nope.

"Hype" is subjective.

"Disappointing" is subjective.

Harris IMHO, was never particularly "hyped", and is currently performing as well as I would have expected her campaign to have performed. She is a strong in a number of areas but was not strong in others and this was obvious from the start. If you didn't notice then you simply weren't paying attention.

Maybe you're expectations were simply out-of-whack. Perhaps you need to stop relying on the narrative created by the media and form your own opinions.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:32 AM
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Tulsi kneecapped her, every second Tulsi is on the stage Harris falls.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:34 AM
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...nope.

"Hype" is subjective.

"Disappointing" is subjective.

Harris IMHO, was never particularly "hyped", and is currently performing as well as I would have expected her campaign to have performed. She is a strong in a number of areas but was not strong in others and this was obvious from the start. If you didn't notice then you simply weren't paying attention.

Maybe you're expectations were simply out-of-whack. Perhaps you need to stop relying on the narrative created by the media and form your own opinions.
Well, my opinion was that she was the Rick Perry of this race as soon as I noticed how vapid her Twitter posts were. I guess I was ahead of the media narrative.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:51 AM
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Well, my opinion was that she was the Rick Perry of this race as soon as I noticed how vapid her Twitter posts were. I guess I was ahead of the media narrative.
...so does that mean you don't think Kamala Harris is the most disappointing candidate ever?

/END THREAD then.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:13 AM
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No, she's worse than Perry. Perry ruined his campaign with a single gaffe. Harris' has been simple mismanagement, inauthenticity which took most voters time to figure out, and having not the faintest idea what she believes in or a reason behind her candidacy.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:40 AM
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No, she's worse than Perry.
...do you mean she is objectively worse than Perry, or "in your opinion you think she was worse than Perry?"

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Perry ruined his campaign with a single gaffe.
Only a single gaffe? Prove it.

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Harris' has been simple mismanagement, inauthenticity which took most voters time to figure out, and having not the faintest idea what she believes in or a reason behind her candidacy.
"Rick Perry’s Campaign Death Spiral"

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Originally Posted by Politico
Just how dead is Rick Perry’s presidential campaign? His fingers and toes have gone cold, he can no longer keep solid food down, and his gurling inhalations signal his imminent relocation to a hospice and not the White House. I kid. But not much. His presidential campaign, experiencing fundraising shortfalls, has stopped paying its staff, and they’re fleeing.
As I said before: its all about the narrative.

You've created two competing narrative: firstly that "Perry ruined his campaign with a single gaffe", and secondly "Harris' has been simple mismanagement, inauthenticity which took most voters time to figure out, and having not the faintest idea what she believes in or a reason behind her candidacy".

But dig a bit deeper, and neither narrative paints a complete picture of the facts.

So we go back to the original question: "Is Kamala Harris the most disappointing candidate ever?" And that's a question that cannot be answered on the basis of the simplistic narratives you've put forward here. Not only is the question entirely subjective: but it is how the fuck are you expecting us to compare Harris to every single candidate for every thing ever? The OP is open-ended. Are you talking about Presidential primaries or candidates in general? Are you restricting this to the United States only?

There is no debate here.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:23 AM
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I can't get why she was an actual candidate. She has great policies, good on gun control, but flip-flopped on that, IMO.

I still think if the goal is to beat the Orange Crowd, then a woman can't be the candidate in this election. Kamala would make a great cabinet member after this election and help move forward women in politics. But I just don't think she can start at the top. And no, I don't think she's qualified in foreign policy to swing it. I'll vote for her again in CA. She's fantastic, just not the woman that can beat the GOP.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:47 AM
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Tulsi kneecapped her, every second Tulsi is on the stage Harris falls.
No. Harris kneecapped herself. Tulsi is a total irrelevance outside of her little online bubble.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 12-03-2019 at 02:50 AM.
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Old 12-03-2019, 04:02 AM
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Tbf I quite liked Harris until Tulsi pointed out that she’d zealously prosecuted people for having weed and blocked exculpatory evidence in death row cases. AFAIC Tulsi torpedoed Harris in that 2nd debate.
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Old 12-03-2019, 04:13 AM
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Kamala Harris is the kind of politician who is hopefully going out of fashion in the information age. She did what she thought she had to do to further her political career when she was a prosecutor. But nowadays you own your record to a much greater extent than you would have 20 years ago.
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Old 12-03-2019, 07:09 AM
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The first I knew of Kamala Harris was when I Searched for clips at YouTube. I felt her speaking style was more folksy mirthful, rather than Presidential. Her charisma, such as it was, would be great in some contexts but not in the Oval Office.

My intuition was vindicated.
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Old 12-03-2019, 07:29 AM
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Well, she certainly charged into the race on the winds of a great performance in the Kavanaugh hearings. And she does have a pretty good resume. But yeah, the campaign has been all over the place and they should have been prepared for the attacks from the Bernie/Warren wing. It’s going to be tough for anyone with a background as a prosecutor to do well in an atmosphere of criminal justice reform among a segment of the party. Look how Hillary was vilified for the crime bill which was wildly popular in the 1990s and Hillary was just First Lady!

She’ll be back for a future run. I think a cabinet role would be a step down, she was already making the rounds of the cable news and Sunday news shows as a Senator.

Perry was a spectacular flame out, but that just goes to show how little the governor of Texas actually does. All he needed to due was the standard God, Guns, and Gays pandering and he’s got an automatic path to being governor. I remember in particular he made a big deal of signing the constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage at some right wing church. The governor doesn’t need to sign constitutional amendments, they’re law regardless if s/he likes it.

I’d say the Dole 1988 campaign was a particularly weak campaign along with the Gore 88 campaign. And, of course, the 1988 Biden campaign never really got off the ground. Surely he could have recovered from the plagiarism ‘scandal.’ But, I think Biden saw 88 as unwinnable anyway and was more than happy to get busy blocking Bork. Giuliani was another flame out as he was exposed as noun, verb, 9/11.

It’ll be interesting to see if we will add the 2020 Biden campaign to the list in a couple of months. Right now, he’s polling fine but sure doesn’t seem like a front runner.
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Old 12-03-2019, 07:50 AM
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She's performed just as I expected. Her lack of substance was glaringly apparent. What did her in was her attack on doddering old Uncle Joe. We're looking for a president who isn't a bully.
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Old 12-03-2019, 08:00 AM
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I don't know about most disappointing. Rudy Colludy with his inane strategy of skipping the first several primaries and winding up with a solitary delegate comes to mind. So does Jeb (please clap) Bush.

Yes, Harris has disappointed. She took a roundhouse punch at Biden about busing but as it turned out didn't have a lot of daylight between his position and hers. That punch was loaded with self-pity and I think it turned people off. Time to put the butter and jelly on her because she is toast.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:25 AM
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I don't know about most disappointing. Rudy Colludy with his inane strategy of skipping the first several primaries and winding up with a solitary delegate comes to mind. So does Jeb (please clap) Bush.

Yes, Harris has disappointed. She took a roundhouse punch at Biden about busing but as it turned out didn't have a lot of daylight between his position and hers. That punch was loaded with self-pity and I think it turned people off. Time to put the butter and jelly on her because she is toast.
Hell, there's 16 candidates still, and all but five or six of them are toast. (Can we at least get Delaney and Bennet to drop out? Talk about guys who won't take "nobody's paying the least bit of attention to you" for an answer.)

Glad you mentioned Rudy, because I think Rudy 911 may have been the most disappointing candidate ever. Looked formidable heading into the 2008 cycle - universal name recognition, good approval ratings, raised plenty of money IIRC - but the voters weren't interested in him, so he skipped Iowa, then skipped NH, etc. Ultimately didn't skip Florida, crashed and burned there, and that was the end for his Presidential aspirations.

Whatever other criticisms I may have of Joe Biden, I'll always think well of him for doing his part to kill Rudy's candidacy with his "a noun, a verb, and 9/11" line.

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Old 12-03-2019, 09:55 AM
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Hell, there's 16 candidates still, and all but five or six of them are toast. (Can we at least get Delaney and Bennet to drop out? Talk about guys who won't take "nobody's paying the least bit of attention to you" for an answer.)
The others are toast as well, but Harris is fresher toast. Delaney is week old toast that you toss out for the birds.
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:39 AM
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Is Kamala Harris the most disappointing candidate ever?
Keeping it within the US, it's hard to top Franklin Pierce. Although there are four strong runner-ups listed, including Andrew Johnson.

https://www.npr.org/sections/politic...=1575387224744
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:41 AM
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The others are toast as well, but Harris is fresher toast. Delaney is week old toast that you toss out for the birds.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:10 PM
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...nope.

"Hype" is subjective.

"Disappointing" is subjective.

Harris IMHO, was never particularly "hyped",
I don't know if I'd call her the most overhyped and disappointing candidate ever, but she was definitely hyped. If you get in your DeLorean and travel back to about one year ago, you'll find all the smart people at the big media outlets who are highly paid to understand politics saying that Kamala Harris is #1 and will totally win the nomination. For example, here are Chris Cillizza and Harry Enten at CNN:

Quote:
If there's one lesson Democrats should learn from the 2018 election, it's this: Their base wants to make history. Democratic voters helped elect a historic number of women to Congress. They elected the first Muslim-American women -- one in Minnesota and another in Michigan. They voted in the first Native-American women -- in New Mexico and Kansas.

Everywhere you looked on the map last Tuesday night, Democratic voters were backing women -- and oftentimes women of color. Which brings us to the 2020 Democratic presidential race. And specifically to California Sen. Kamala Harris. Harris is in her first term as a senator from the country's largest state. When she won in 2016, she made history as the first African-American woman and the first Indian-American woman to represent California in the Senate.
...
the 2018 election convinced us that Harris seems to be exactly what Democratic voters are telling the party and its politicians they want representing them going forward. A young-ish -- she's 54 -- non-white woman, Harris looks like the Democratic Party base these days. And if 2020 is anything like 2018, that's a very good place for her to be.

Add it all up, and we've got a new #1 on our 2020 rankings!
There was lots of that sort of thing all over the media. Even Republicans agreed that the Democratic voters were going to reject men and white people and elect a minority woman instead.

So where are we at now? The top 5 choices of Democratic voters are a white man, a white man, a white woman, a white man, and a white man. In other words, the media have proved yet again that they're totally clueless.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:16 PM
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And she has dropped out of the race.

Kamala Harris Drops Out of Presidential Race
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:46 PM
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Kamala Harris was my favorite candidate, but I'm not a Democrat, only an extremely disaffected Republican. While I support her, she really needs more experience in the Senate. The next election in 2024 is when she'd naturally peak, but I don't blame her for running this time. I'm disappointed it didn't work out, but happy to have her represent me in the Senate. And there's still a vice-presidential slot to fill; she'd pair well with Sanders (blech) or Buttigieg.

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Harris has never had to run a race where she wasn't the party anointed. And of course in California once you're the party anointed you're going to win, because the GOP is not much competition statewide.
This is not correct. The Democratic party did not endorse her for the Senate election in 2016. Because of the primary system in California, no Republican qualified and her opponent in the general election was also a Democrat, so the party did not endorse either candidate.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:46 PM
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I met her and heard her speak at a backyard Ohio fundraiser for Sen. Sherrod Brown last year and was basically underwhelmed. When she spoke at a county Democratic dinner later that year she didn't change that impression at all. I thought she'd at least get through Iowa and New Hampshire, but apparently not. Wouldn't be too surprised to see her as AG in the next Democratic administration, though.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:54 PM
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How was Harris more disappointing than JEB! ?
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:06 PM
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Wouldn't be too surprised to see her as AG in the next Democratic administration, though.
Yes, she would be a natural for AG. And her seat would be a safe DEM seat if she stepped out of it. But, where do you go from AG? I think she would remain in the senate and continue to keep her powder dry for future White House runs.

My crystal ball prediction says I see her as landing VP, followed by a failed Presidential run, then Governor of California, then retirement (with frequent calls for her to give the White House one more shot). So, we haven't heard the last of her.

In other news, thank OG she's out! Now my email inbox will no longer be quite so inundated. (I used to think of her as my obsessive ex.)
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:20 PM
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The NY Times published an article on how it all fell apart: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/29/u...rris-2020.html
Solis article, thanks.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:23 PM
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I'm surprised she is out considering that she is one of only six who qualified for the next debate. She is polling much better that several who are still in the race. I thought she had a lot of money too.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:32 PM
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Let's not forget Fred Dalton "Wake Me on Super Tuesday" Thompson.

Harris...*sigh*.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:45 PM
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I'm surprised she is out considering that she is one of only six who qualified for the next debate. She is polling much better that several who are still in the race. I thought she had a lot of money too.
My impression is that she did not manage her campaign particularly well, from a management perspective, from a campaign perspective, and from a financial perspective. It doesn't matter how much money you have, if your burn rate is too high.

Like some others that were high-flyers early on (Beto), it's easy to get confused by how much money is going to continue to flow in based on early contributor enthusiasm. I suspect that at this point in the race, one would be talking to the big donors, PACs, and bundlers. If they are not giving you the love, it's time to fold up the circus tent.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:00 PM
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Apparently she has now DROPPED OUT of the race.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:34 PM
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Apparently she has now DROPPED OUT of the race.
What, AGAIN?!!

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And she has dropped out of the race.

Kamala Harris Drops Out of Presidential Race
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:55 PM
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Yeah, not especially disappointing - this is after all what happens with most presidential aspirants anyway. I for one did not really expect her for a 2020 run anyway so IMO shecwas just before her time (sure Obama did it, but he was an outlier).
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Old 12-03-2019, 04:04 PM
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Harris' bump in the polls back in June was based on fluff. Busing isn't a live issue in 2019. That's why it was just a bump. She had an opportunity, *during* the bump, to solidify her position if she made some smart moves. But she didn't. Around that time, she totally flubbed debuting her health care plan. The plan itself deserved more attention tbh, but she came across as not understanding "her own" proposals. Except for the LIFT act, which is a fine idea but not the kind of policy that can make waves in 2019.

She potentially had time for a comeback, but she didn't really do much. I knew she was finished when she said she was "fucking moving to Iowa". She was never a good Iowa candidate, particularly compared to the 2020 field. At that point she should have essentially conceded the first two states and focused on winning Nevada. I'm actually pretty surprised there hasn't been a single "I'm skipping Iowa for New Hampshire" candidate this year. New Hampshire isn't good for Harris either, but Nevada could have been.

Harris' biggest issue was probably that she never really answered for the rough spots in her record as DA. That could've been overcome with the right messaging. She just didn't have it. She did make one correct move: dropping out now rather than later.
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Old 12-03-2019, 04:15 PM
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Is Kamala Harris the most disappointing candidate ever?
Keeping it within the US, it's hard to top Franklin Pierce. Although there are four strong runner-ups listed, including Andrew Johnson.

https://www.npr.org/sections/politic...=1575387224744
But they won. We’re not talking disappointing general election campaigns or disappointing performance in office.
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Old 12-03-2019, 04:34 PM
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She's performed just as I expected. Her lack of substance was glaringly apparent. What did her in was her attack on doddering old Uncle Joe. We're looking for a president who isn't a bully.
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Yes, Harris has disappointed. She took a roundhouse punch at Biden about busing but as it turned out didn't have a lot of daylight between his position and hers. That punch was loaded with self-pity and I think it turned people off. Time to put the butter and jelly on her because she is toast.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kamala reach the peak of her popularity right after that busing exchange? It sounds like you guys are saying that this exchange did her in, and I can't imagine how the facts support what you're saying. So I'm interested to hear whether I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, or whether there are some facts I'm not aware of. (FWIW, I agree that the punch was loaded with self-pity and it did turn me off to her. But I had thought that was a personal problem, not something a lot of other people agreed on.)
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Old 12-03-2019, 04:43 PM
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But they won. We’re not talking disappointing general election campaigns or disappointing performance in office.
If we want to limit it to primary contests, here's a few I can think of.

Ed Muskie 1972

Ted Kennedy 1980

Gary Hart 1998

Bill Bradley (D) and John McCain (R) 2000

John Edwards 2008
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Old 12-03-2019, 04:58 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kamala reach the peak of her popularity right after that busing exchange? It sounds like you guys are saying that this exchange did her in, and I can't imagine how the facts support what you're saying. So I'm interested to hear whether I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, or whether there are some facts I'm not aware of. (FWIW, I agree that the punch was loaded with self-pity and it did turn me off to her. But I had thought that was a personal problem, not something a lot of other people agreed on.)
As gatorslap mentioned, the busing exchange put her in the public eye, but once that happened, it showed that she didn't have much. And when people thought back on it, they realized, wait, busing isn't really an issue anymore.
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:05 PM
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Kamala Harris was my favorite candidate, but I'm not a Democrat, only an extremely disaffected Republican. While I support her, she really needs more experience in the Senate. The next election in 2024 is when she'd naturally peak, but I don't blame her for running this time. I'm disappointed it didn't work out, but happy to have her represent me in the Senate. And there's still a vice-presidential slot to fill; she'd pair well with Sanders (blech) or Buttigieg.


This is not correct. The Democratic party did not endorse her for the Senate election in 2016. Because of the primary system in California, no Republican qualified and her opponent in the general election was also a Democrat, so the party did not endorse either candidate.
The party didn't endorse her, but almost all the big players in the party did.
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:09 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kamala reach the peak of her popularity right after that busing exchange? It sounds like you guys are saying that this exchange did her in, and I can't imagine how the facts support what you're saying. So I'm interested to hear whether I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, or whether there are some facts I'm not aware of. (FWIW, I agree that the punch was loaded with self-pity and it did turn me off to her. But I had thought that was a personal problem, not something a lot of other people agreed on.)
Unlike most candidacies that implode, it wasn't one thing. It was her own position on busing, which is the same as Biden's, her flip flops on M4A, her poor campaign management, her choice of positioning(be everything to everyone), and just the fact that I think she's too polarizing. Some people look at her and see Barack Obama 2.0. Others see a very unlikeable, insincere candidate. On the left, there was a lot of "Kamala Harris is a cop" memes and Tulsi lit into her over that record. Some people were just enamored with the fact that she is genuinely good at prosecuting a case. Others saw that "prosecuting the case" is insufficient to be President. What happens once you get there? You just prosecute all the evildoers?
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:56 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kamala reach the peak of her popularity right after that busing exchange? It sounds like you guys are saying that this exchange did her in, and I can't imagine how the facts support what you're saying. So I'm interested to hear whether I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, or whether there are some facts I'm not aware of. (FWIW, I agree that the punch was loaded with self-pity and it did turn me off to her. But I had thought that was a personal problem, not something a lot of other people agreed on.)
It didn't "do her in" so much, it just didn't help her in any longer-term way. She had a 'moment' and it gave her a brief polling bump, but that new support was clearly not solid. I do think she maybe could have turned that bump into something lasting, if something else went right for her at the right time. The busing exchange just didn't have any legs, because it's not an ongoing issue that people care about, and no one should have expected her to sustain higher numbers on that basis alone. I think some people thought it was the beginning of a pattern and she'd keep her numbers up by having another 'hit' every other week, or something like that. I don't know if that would've worked or not, but she didn't do that.
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Old 12-03-2019, 06:46 PM
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IMO the most disappointing candidate ever was John Kerry in 2000. The Republicans slung all that swift boat shit at him and he did little or nothing to refute it, to jump all over it and point out that Bush was a draft dodger, etc. Kind of the SOP for Democrats, unfortunately.
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Old 12-03-2019, 07:58 PM
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She shouldn't have waited five months to get back at Tulsi Gabbard. Because in the space of those five months she went from polling the closest to Joe Biden to polling at 2% and by the time she got her comeback in, well it was too late and too desperate.

I also think the Kamala is a cop meme messed the heads of her campaign. Americans like law and order. If she actually distinguished her actual record vs the fiction made to distort it then who knows, she may have avoided the banana skin in the primary of left wing activists heckling and strengthened the case in a general election of taking down criminals. Nobody calls Amy Klobuchar a cop when she too was a prosecutor. It's clear Kamala was targetted by the left of the party because she was a threat.
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Old 12-03-2019, 08:04 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kamala reach the peak of her popularity right after that busing exchange? It sounds like you guys are saying that this exchange did her in, and I can't imagine how the facts support what you're saying. )
You could look at it both way, I suppose. The exchange led to her highest polling but her follow up was lame and ended up putting her in a bad light.

But what you're saying is far more reasonable, imho. The exchange led to a bump and then she just faded back and never made another move again.
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Old 12-03-2019, 08:28 PM
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Hahahahaha and... shes outta here. Good job tulsi.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/03/polit...bid/index.html
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Old 12-03-2019, 08:57 PM
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Tbf I quite liked Harris until Tulsi pointed out that she’d zealously prosecuted people for having weed and blocked exculpatory evidence in death row cases. AFAIC Tulsi torpedoed Harris in that 2nd debate.
Things like this. She wasn't just a cop. (ETA: San Francisco District Attorney, to be more precise.) She had some reputation as a "bad cop". Long before Tulsi got involved, we in California were seeing stories about that, that began coming out when she was running for state AG in 2010 and again when she ran for Senator.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:24 PM
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I can't get why she was an actual candidate. She has great policies, good on gun control, but flip-flopped on that, IMO.

I still think if the goal is to beat the Orange Crowd, then a woman can't be the candidate in this election. Kamala would make a great cabinet member after this election and help move forward women in politics. But I just don't think she can start at the top. And no, I don't think she's qualified in foreign policy to swing it. I'll vote for her again in CA. She's fantastic, just not the woman that can beat the GOP.
I'm guessing you've never been part of the slave labor racket she helped run.
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:10 PM
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I'm guessing you've never been part of the slave labor racket she helped run.
? Cite?
  #49  
Old 12-03-2019, 11:34 PM
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Kamala Harris became the busing candidate when she attacked Biden


on the subject.

Busing is less popular than gonorreah.
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Old 12-03-2019, 11:59 PM
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I would be astonished if more than 25% of America's population even knows what busing is.
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