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Old 12-11-2019, 05:54 AM
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Is it OK to present veganism to 9 year olds?


I just learned (after the fact) that yesterday my daughter’s school invited in an activist to make a presentation to them about veganism. This was to a group of 9 and 10 year olds. This was part of a larger programme of presenting different world views and points of view.

Generally I like this idea (very different from when I was a kid), but I am a bit concerned about the impacts letting an activist try to ‘sell’ them on veganism. As it is, we have a very hard time trying to get my daughter to eat, and I fear that should she choose to adopt veganism, there could be negative nutritional impacts. Not eating meat is one thing, but I really worry what would happen if she avoided eggs and dairy. She is not at all interested in the vegan alternative foods like tofu and most pulses.

Do you think it was irresponsible of the school to invite this speaker? Do you think that kids should be exposed to veganism at this age?

I should mention that this person was actually an activist, not a nutritional professional, ecologist, etc. Apparently he even showed a shock video with images inside an abbatoir….

Perspectives appreciated.
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Old 12-11-2019, 06:14 AM
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I don't think that last part is appropriate, for sure. I'm against using shock value in these sorts of things in general, and even more so with children. If they can't make an argument that doesn't need emotionally disturbing images, then they don't have a good argument. This would be just as true with the pro-life fetus thing, too.

On the other hand, I don't generally object to children being exposed to the ideas of veganism or vegetarianism. However, the issue of picky eaters is not one I'd considered. I don't really have much experience there. I definitely can see how veganism plus picky eating would be hard to deal with. On the other hand, I could see how, if you already don't have much you like to eat, having to restrict it even more would be unappealing. Most picky eaters I know do not like the bulk of the diet that a vegetarian would need to consume, let along a vegan.

If it does come up, one idea I had is to make a sort of deal. "I'll get you vegan foods to try, but you have actually eat them. If you don't, then we'll know you're not ready to be a vegan." That last part is deliberately phrased to not make it seem like you're punishing her, and to leave it open if she changes her mind in the future.

But that's just based on reading the parenting guides that my parents had lying around from when I was born. It's not based on any experience.
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Old 12-11-2019, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Orville mogul View Post
Do you think it was irresponsible of the school to invite this speaker? Do you think that kids should be exposed to veganism at this age?

I should mention that this person was actually an activist, not a nutritional professional, ecologist, etc. Apparently he even showed a shock video with images inside an abbatoir….

Perspectives appreciated.
Yes it's irresponsible. Points of view based on the speaker's morality should not be part of an assembly of 9 and 10 year olds.
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Old 12-11-2019, 08:46 AM
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If they're having an activist promote veganism, will there be an activist promoting a carnivore lifestyle? Maybe someone representing big beef?
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Old 12-11-2019, 08:51 AM
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If that was my child, I'd be having a meeting with the principal, the scenario as you presented it is not acceptable or appropriate in any way. That was not "presenting" an alternate style of eating/living, that was indoctrination pure and simple.
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:24 AM
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Yes it's irresponsible. Points of view based on the speaker's morality should not be part of an assembly of 9 and 10 year olds.
My kids get regular messages from the school about moral messages like sharing with others, giving to charity, not littering, doing good things for the environment, etc. None of those are controversial.

Being vegan is good for the environment and is nice to animals. I don't know enough about this specific presentation to say I'd have a problem with it, but I don't think anyone really has an objection to "points of view based on the speaker's morality" in general. Certainly I'd have an issue with someone coming in to promote a carnivore lifestyle, same as I'd have an issue with someone coming in talking about how great littering is.

Last edited by steronz; 12-11-2019 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Orville mogul View Post
I just learned (after the fact) that yesterday my daughter’s school invited in an activist to make a presentation to them about veganism. This was to a group of 9 and 10 year olds. This was part of a larger programme of presenting different world views and points of view.
What were some of the other worldviews and points of view presented?

Obviously the school can't present every POV, and the issue usually becomes that everyone is upset that their POV wasn't presented. If the school presents Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, the atheists, Buddhists, and pagans get upset. If the school presents veganism, the pisco-lacto-ova-vegetarians feel excluded.

I am assuming from your spelling of "programme" that you are not in the US. I am, although my kids are grown. My preferred resolution would be that the schools inform me ahead of time that they are going to be presenting activists. and allow me to opt my child out, if I felt the presentation was one-sided, or inappropriate for a given student (like veganism for a child with eating issues).

To a large extent it depends on how much it is information, and how much it is activism, and that is a very blurry line. I can certainly see "this is what Islam teaches, this is what vegans believe, this is what Liberal Democrats believe", etc. "You should become vegan because X, Y, and Z' is more problematic, and I don't know if the line can be clear either way.

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Old 12-11-2019, 09:34 AM
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My kids get regular messages from the school about moral messages like sharing with others, giving to charity, not littering, doing good things for the environment, etc. None of those are controversial
Helping people, following the law, and not thrashing the planet are not "moral" stances.

Quote:
Being vegan is good for the environment and is nice to animals. I don't know enough about this specific presentation to say I'd have a problem with it, but I don't think anyone really has an objection to "points of view based on the speaker's morality" in general. Certainly I'd have an issue with someone coming in to promote a carnivore lifestyle, same as I'd have an issue with someone coming in talking about how great littering is.
I'd have the same issue with an assembly that told my 9 and 10 year kids to "eat as much meat as you can, because it's a good way to live!" from some dumb activist person.

An assembly that laid out "This is veganism, this is cave-man diet, this is Keto" without actual promoting any of them would be fine with me.
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:37 AM
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I think the issue is that 9 year olds aren't really equipped with the scientific, emotional, ethical or critical thinking skills to effectively evaluate whether veganism is a proper lifestyle for themselves.

I'm reminded of some students when I was about 10 (1982-ish), who totally pitched an absolute fit about the country having nuclear weapons, because they saw some kind of commercials or something about the Nuclear Freeze movement. They didn't know what a nuclear weapon was, they didn't know why the US and USSR were at odds with each other, and they didn't know what the actual effects of a nuclear weapon were (none of us did), but they did feel very threatened because of the propaganda and were bugging the absolute shit out of their classmates and teachers about it.

I can't help but think that something similar might have happened, had the school let in a vegan activist to give us a presentation.
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:47 AM
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What's wrong with a kid knowing about where their food comes from? What you call a "shock video" others might call a peek behind the curtain. I don't think kids need to be steeped in gore for its own sake, but they should know that meat comes from living animals that are killed, and that the killing is done on an industrial scale in an industrial way. If it doesn't put them off meat altogether, it will at least make them appreciate the meat on their plates, and the lives that were extinguished to put it there, a little more. I find it difficult to understand any objection to that.

Further, by coming to know about industrial meat production they might actually start to think about where ALL of their food comes from, and how production is often a compromise between personal and environmental safety, and the yields necessary to feed a planet. And from there, they might start to think about where all of their stuff comes from, who makes it, and at what personal cost to the workers and at what cost to the ecology.

If you think, as I do, that school is about preparing kids to survive in the world, then I think the event as described in the OP is not only a good idea, but should also be a required and often repeated lesson.
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I think the issue is that 9 year olds aren't really equipped with the scientific, emotional, ethical or critical thinking skills to effectively evaluate whether veganism is a proper lifestyle for themselves.
They are if they aren't coddled from womb to adulthood. Life, real life, is messy and unpleasant most of the time. Most of their parents don't understand that, but that doesn't mean the illusion we currently live should be allowed to endure. And what is wrong with veganism? It's sustainable, it's not unhealthy, and it's conscionable.

Last edited by Inigo Montoya; 12-11-2019 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:54 AM
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Helping people, following the law, and not thrashing the planet are not "moral" stances.
??? Sure they are.
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:55 AM
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If you think, as I do, that school is about preparing kids to survive in the world, then I think the event as described in the OP is not only a good idea, but should also be a required and often repeated lesson.They are if they aren't coddled from womb to adulthood. Life, real life, is messy and unpleasant most of the time. Most of their parents don't understand that, but that doesn't mean the illusion we currently live should be allowed to endure.
Sorry, but I disagree that showing videos of slaughterhouses to 9 and 10 year kids is required to prepare them to survive in the world.
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:56 AM
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Helping people, following the law, and not thrashing the planet are not "moral" stances.
Not to pile on, but helping people and not thrashing the planet are the only moral stances that matter. Following the law...that's a lot more personal.

As for what to show 9-10 year old kids, well, then you nailed it. We disagree.
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:57 AM
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I have no kids, but thinking about this hypothetically, I would be fine with a school presenting veganism as part of a teaching program that included all kinds of human cultural behaviors, without favoring one over the other.

But inviting a vegan activist whose purpose is to persuade a class full of kids that they should be vegans, that seems to me very troubling and something that parents should have at least known about in advance.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:00 AM
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I think it's mildly inappropriate, but not enough for me to do anything about. Right up until the slaughterhouse video, at which point it became incredibly inappropriate, in the "I'm talking to other parents and visiting the principal, and we're not leaving until the person who approved this presentation is disciplined" sense. Escalating to the school board if the principal blows me off. As well as demanding notice of any future such presentation, with the ability to opt my child out.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:04 AM
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Not to pile on, but helping people and not thrashing the planet are the only moral stances that matter. Following the law...that's a lot more personal.
I find nothing immoral about never helping someone. Perhaps you consider that immoral, but that is based on your own morality. Something I'd like to avoid exposing my kids to while they are in school - someone else's morality.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:15 AM
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Something I'd like to avoid exposing my kids to while they are in school - someone else's morality.
??? Did you mean to say "avoid exposing to" or "avoid subjecting to". Because the first is mind-opening and educational, but the second is potentially dangerous. And there is probably a thick gray line dividing the two ideas.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:18 AM
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I have no kids, but thinking about this hypothetically, I would be fine with a school presenting veganism as part of a teaching program that included all kinds of human cultural behaviors, without favoring one over the other.

But inviting a vegan activist whose purpose is to persuade a class full of kids that they should be vegans, that seems to me very troubling and something that parents should have at least known about in advance.
yeah, this. Teachers shouldn't be bringing in whackos to promote their pet causes.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:19 AM
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??? Did you mean to say "avoid exposing to" or "avoid subjecting to". Because the first is mind-opening and educational, but the second is potentially dangerous. And there is probably a thick gray line dividing the two ideas.
How about this: I don't want people going to my kids' school and telling them to do/not do things based on what the speaker considers moral.

Examples:
  • You should be vegan because it's morally correct!
  • You should not get abortions because it's immoral!

etc.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:23 AM
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How about this: I don't want people going to my kids' school and telling them to do/not do things based on what the speaker considers moral.

Examples:
  • You should be vegan because it's morally correct!
  • You should not get abortions because it's immoral!

etc.
But some of us (not you, apparently) consider it morally correct to help other people. And you'd have no problem with us teaching your kids that helping other people is morally correct, right?
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:36 AM
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If they're having an activist promote veganism, will there be an activist promoting a carnivore lifestyle? Maybe someone representing big beef?
I nominate Macho Man Randy Savage.

As far as presenting info to kids, I wonder if this presentation also informed them of the disadvantages of going vegan.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:40 AM
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It's OK to say, "Some people are vegans, and here's what that means."

It's not OK to say, "Some people are vegans, and you should be one too."

It is unnacceptable to show "shock video" to a captive audience of elementary school kids and the parents should be outraged.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:41 AM
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Yeah, they shouldn't have done that. Part of the issue is that nine and ten year olds don't control their grocery shopping, they don't control their food, and they aren't good enough researchers to give themselves a healthy vegan diet. So you are putting the nine year old who buys into the vegan activism and whose parents do not in a bad place - creating conflict and stress - in their own internal selves and within their homes. And this is happening at a point in their development where they are beginning to separate from their parents, where it starts to get difficult to retain a connection, and where "you aren't the boss of me" becomes a very big deal.

A healthy vegan diet is not easy to support - its doable, but it isn't a matter of making sure your nine year old eats their vegetables. Especially working to make sure that a growing body gets calcium, protein and good fats in sufficient quantities. It isn't something a nine year old can do by themselves, the parents have to buy in.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:41 AM
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If they're having an activist promote veganism, will there be an activist promoting a carnivore lifestyle? Maybe someone representing big beef?
Yes, they will be showing this.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:46 AM
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But some of us (not you, apparently) consider it morally correct to help other people. And you'd have no problem with us teaching your kids that helping other people is morally correct, right?
I also think it is morally correct for ME to help other people. But I don't judge others on my own morality. That's ridiculous.

And no, I don't want you to tell my kids that anything is morally correct and they should do it. Keep your own morals to yourself, regardless if I agree with you or not.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:47 AM
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Helping people, following the law, and not thrashing the planet are not "moral" stances.
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I find nothing immoral about never helping someone. Perhaps you consider that immoral, but that is based on your own morality. Something I'd like to avoid exposing my kids to while they are in school - someone else's morality.
With the first quote you seem to dismiss the comparison between this vegan presentation and schools teaching about helping people.

But the second quote appear to be against teaching kids to help people, as that is exposing them to someone else's morality.

I'm not saying you don't have a consistent opinion here, but I can't figure it out.

Was your intent with the first quote not to contrast those messages with the vegan "propaganda", but to confirm that you consider them equal?
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:47 AM
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What's wrong with a kid knowing about where their food comes from? What you call a "shock video" others might call a peek behind the curtain. I don't think kids need to be steeped in gore for its own sake, but they should know that meat comes from living animals that are killed, and that the killing is done on an industrial scale in an industrial way. If it doesn't put them off meat altogether, it will at least make them appreciate the meat on their plates, and the lives that were extinguished to put it there, a little more. I find it difficult to understand any objection to that.
First and foremost, children that age are not emotionally equipped to deal with images that are curated to be deliberately disturbing. A video presented by activists is bound to be biased and intended to disturb people. I can accept that for an adult audience but not children who are not given the opportunity to opt out.

Second, it is propaganda. Even if the video contains factual accounts, those accounts might not be typical. Children that age are very impressionable and have not developed critical thinking skills yet.

I don't think there is anything wrong with an explanation to children about where meat comes from, but doing it with a video whose purpose is to disturb viewers is wrong.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:49 AM
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Why not? We "introduce" them to crap like McDonald's and White Castle when they are mere toddlers. Few question that.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:54 AM
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I think I'd ask for the activist's phone number, then pass it out to all the parents involved, with advice to call this number when their kid wakes up screaming after a nightmare.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:54 AM
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Why not? We "introduce" them to crap like McDonald's and White Castle when they are mere toddlers. Few question that.
If by "we" you mean "a kid's own parents", then yes.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:54 AM
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With the first quote you seem to dismiss the comparison between this vegan presentation and schools teaching about helping people.

But the second quote appear to be against teaching kids to help people, as that is exposing them to someone else's morality.

I'm not saying you don't have a consistent opinion here, but I can't figure it out.

Was your intent with the first quote not to contrast those messages with the vegan "propaganda", but to confirm that you consider them equal?
There isn't anything moral or immoral in general in helping people, or not littering, or saving the planet.

If you tell my kids "Helping people is morally correct" and they don't want to do it, maybe they feel they are acting "immorally" by not helping people. And I don't want them to feel they are acting "immorally" based on what others tell them. I personally feel that helping people is a moral thing to do and will tell my own kids that. I would never tell somebody else that. So, if you are using morality as a way to get my kids to help people, then don't. And if you can't think of a reason to help people that doesn't include "morality", then don't tell my kids to do it. I'll take care of morality and what "having morals" means in my own family, thanks.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:57 AM
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There isn't anything moral or immoral in general in helping people, or not littering, or saving the planet.

If you tell my kids "Helping people is morally correct" and they don't want to do it, maybe they feel they are acting "immorally" by not helping people. And I don't want them to feel they are acting "immorally" based on what others tell them. I personally feel that helping people is a moral thing to do and will tell my own kids that. I would never tell somebody else that. So, if you are using morality as a way to get my kids to help people, then don't. And if you can't think of a reason to help people that doesn't include "morality", then don't tell my kids to do it. I'll take care of morality and what "having morals" means in my own family, thanks.
Well if that's how you feel, I've got some bad news for you, man.... your kids are getting brainwashed.

Don't let them watch Sesame Street either. Or Mr. Rogers. Yikes!
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Old 12-11-2019, 11:09 AM
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Well if that's how you feel, I've got some bad news for you, man.... your kids are getting brainwashed.

Don't let them watch Sesame Street either. Or Mr. Rogers. Yikes!
I'm specifically talking about schools. Last I checked, Sesame Street didn't have vegans on it telling people it was immoral to eat meat.

And I've never seen a slaughterhouse video on Mr. Rogers.
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Old 12-11-2019, 11:22 AM
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A) I'm not at all convinced the presenter in the OP was an "activist" and not simply an "environmentalist". Perhaps both. Not sure why the subject being presented should be seen as a problem.

B) This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya View Post
What's wrong with a kid knowing about where their food comes from? What you call a "shock video" others might call a peek behind the curtain. I don't think kids need to be steeped in gore for its own sake, but they should know that meat comes from living animals that are killed, and that the killing is done on an industrial scale in an industrial way. If it doesn't put them off meat altogether, it will at least make them appreciate the meat on their plates, and the lives that were extinguished to put it there, a little more. I find it difficult to understand any objection to that.

Further, by coming to know about industrial meat production they might actually start to think about where ALL of their food comes from, and how production is often a compromise between personal and environmental safety, and the yields necessary to feed a planet. And from there, they might start to think about where all of their stuff comes from, who makes it, and at what personal cost to the workers and at what cost to the ecology.

If you think, as I do, that school is about preparing kids to survive in the world, then I think the event as described in the OP is not only a good idea, but should also be a required and often repeated lesson.They are if they aren't coddled from womb to adulthood. Life, real life, is messy and unpleasant most of the time. Most of their parents don't understand that, but that doesn't mean the illusion we currently live should be allowed to endure. And what is wrong with veganism? It's sustainable, it's not unhealthy, and it's conscionable.
C) There are lots of children, much younger than 9 or 10 who are very familiar from an early age that some animals have to die in order for them to have meat on their table. Few if any of those children are scarred or damaged for the rest of their lives. I'm not suggesting they need to be exposed to all the gory details of an abbatoir, but it can only be a good thing if they see where chicken nuggets and hamburgers come from.

D) Many adults could stand to learn where their meat comes from as well.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 12-11-2019 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 12-11-2019, 11:23 AM
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I just learned (after the fact) that yesterday my daughter’s school invited in an activist to make a presentation to them about veganism. This was to a group of 9 and 10 year olds. This was part of a larger programme of presenting different world views and points of view.

Generally I like this idea (very different from when I was a kid), but I am a bit concerned about the impacts letting an activist try to ‘sell’ them on veganism. As it is, we have a very hard time trying to get my daughter to eat, and I fear that should she choose to adopt veganism, there could be negative nutritional impacts. Not eating meat is one thing, but I really worry what would happen if she avoided eggs and dairy. She is not at all interested in the vegan alternative foods like tofu and most pulses.

Do you think it was irresponsible of the school to invite this speaker? Do you think that kids should be exposed to veganism at this age?

I should mention that this person was actually an activist, not a nutritional professional, ecologist, etc. Apparently he even showed a shock video with images inside an abbatoir….

Perspectives appreciated.
How does your daughter's school do lunches? If they've got an onsite cafeteria, and especially if they have a free lunch program, then it's irresponsible to have a speaker promoting veganism if the school isn't offering vegan lunches.
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Old 12-11-2019, 11:31 AM
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First and foremost, children that age are not emotionally equipped to deal with images that are curated to be deliberately disturbing.

Second, it is propaganda. Even if the video contains factual accounts, those accounts might not be typical
...
I do respect what you are saying, but I disagree with the meaning. Yes, the videos are disturbing. Shit, I'm a jaded old man and I don't like watching them. But industrial meat production is devastating to the ecology, and the methane generated by the animals contributes meaningfully to climate change (if that sort of thing is on your radar). Further, industrial meat production frequently subjects creatures to horribly squalid conditions for extended periods of time. In the case of poultry & eggs it is straight up inhumane by just about any standard. These are hard but meaningful truths, and I think it is worth shocking children with them so they can put pressure on the people in their lives with the actual power to effect meaningful changes. If the parents have a different perspective, then it would be a useful exercise in debate to have them present it to the kids. Children generally lack the life experience to be subject matter experts, but they tend not to be born fools--they get turned into them by years of intellectual neglect.

To the second point: The US Immigration process does not typically break up families and store preschool children in cages exposed to extreme climates for extended periods of time. How frequent does an abominable act have to become before it can be considered typical, or at least worthy of addressing?

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Old 12-11-2019, 11:37 AM
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If you think, as I do, that school is about preparing kids to survive in the world, then I think the event as described in the OP is not only a good idea, but should also be a required and often repeated lesson.They are if they aren't coddled from womb to adulthood. Life, real life, is messy and unpleasant most of the time. Most of their parents don't understand that, but that doesn't mean the illusion we currently live should be allowed to endure. And what is wrong with veganism? It's sustainable, it's not unhealthy, and it's conscionable.
School's not about preparing kids to survive in the world. That's absurd. If it was, the course mix would be a lot different- we'd have a lot more life skills type courses, and a lot less purely academic stuff. We'd have a lot more "How not to get ripped off by predatory lenders" and "How to tell bullshit from real facts" type education, and a lot less stuff about exploring the nature of masculinity in Hemingway's writing, and how to factor polynomials.

Beyond that, veganism is something that's regarded as fairly extreme- most people are omnivorous and eat animal products and plants. I wouldn't have a problem with someone saying in school that we should eat mostly plants, and less meat than we do - that's true.

But I draw the line at some clown coming in and telling my kids that we shouldn't eat honey because the bees are enslaved, or that wool sweaters are off limits because the sheep don't have a choice, or other vegan nonsense like that. That sort of thing is where it goes from being a nutritional choice to propaganda in favor of a specific extreme viewpoint. While I have no problem with vegetarianism, I think vegans are loons when it comes to stuff like honey or wool or leather, and I don't want that kind of stuff pushed at my children while cloaked in the legitimacy of the educational system, especially when they're small children. High schoolers have more experience and education in how to tell that sort of thing is nonsense, but second graders are far less equipped.
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Old 12-11-2019, 11:46 AM
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But I draw the line at some clown coming in and telling my kids that we shouldn't eat honey because the bees are enslaved, or that wool sweaters are off limits because the sheep don't have a choice, or other vegan nonsense like that. That sort of thing is where it goes from being a nutritional choice to propaganda in favor of a specific extreme viewpoint. While I have no problem with vegetarianism, I think vegans are loons when it comes to stuff like honey or wool or leather, and I don't want that kind of stuff pushed at my children while cloaked in the legitimacy of the educational system, especially when they're small children. High schoolers have more experience and education in how to tell that sort of thing is nonsense, but second graders are far less equipped.
Yes. All vegans are the caricature you painted. All of them. No exceptions. Loons the lot.
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Old 12-11-2019, 11:47 AM
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Beyond that, veganism is something that's regarded as fairly extreme- most people are omnivorous and eat animal products and plants. I wouldn't have a problem with someone saying in school that we should eat mostly plants, and less meat than we do - that's true.

But I draw the line at some clown coming in and telling my kids that we shouldn't eat honey because the bees are enslaved, or that wool sweaters are off limits because the sheep don't have a choice, or other vegan nonsense like that. That sort of thing is where it goes from being a nutritional choice to propaganda in favor of a specific extreme viewpoint. While I have no problem with vegetarianism, I think vegans are loons when it comes to stuff like honey or wool or leather, and I don't want that kind of stuff pushed at my children while cloaked in the legitimacy of the educational system, especially when they're small children. High schoolers have more experience and education in how to tell that sort of thing is nonsense, but second graders are far less equipped.
You know...yes. I sometimes forget about extremists, and how they can monkeywrench an otherwise reasonable position. I still don't think the situation described in the OP was particularly off base, but it dances on the line. I think "This was part of a larger programme of presenting different world views and points of view" mitigates the issue, as the concept seems to have been presented in a "Hey, this is one perspective on our relationship with animals" sort of way.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:01 PM
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Why are we assuming the vegan presentation was some kind of nefarious indoctrination?
I think it it perfectly possible (even likely*) that the presentation was a even-handed explanation of what the person giving the presentation thought about food and why he came to think that way. That is not indoctrination, that is education.

Sadly it is not possible to show any footage from the meat industry that will not qualify as "shock video". Again, that is not indoctrination but simple fact. Any discussion about our food without some idea of what we are doing to the animals we eat would be horribly one-sided.

One could argue that 9 is a bit young to be confronted with such realities. I would argue otherwise.



* Likely because it was sanctioned by the educators the OP carefully selected. They wouldn't allow anything but a factually correct story, would they?

Last edited by The Librarian; 12-11-2019 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:05 PM
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Why not? We "introduce" them to crap like McDonald's and White Castle when they are mere toddlers. Few question that.
Parents have that right. It might be a poor decision, but it's their right, as opposed to schools making a lifestyle decision for them.

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[...]I think it is worth shocking children with them so they can put pressure on the people in their lives with the actual power to effect meaningful changes.
It's important to separate the point about whether meat production is humane and its impact on the environment vs. how we talk to our children about it. I don't have any problem communicating facts to these kids but I feel that "shock videos" are inappropriate at that age. Driving 100 MPH on the highway is dangerous but I don't think schools should be showing 9-year-old kids videos of state police mopping up brains and guts after accidents.

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To the second point: The US Immigration process does not typically break up families and store preschool children in cages exposed to extreme climates for extended periods of time. How frequent does an abominable act have to become before it can be considered typical, or at least worthy of addressing?
The videos like this are not trying to persuade us to address the abominable acts; they are trying to persuade us, by showing us selected abominable acts, that the entire industry should be abolished.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:08 PM
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Yes. All vegans are the caricature you painted. All of them. No exceptions. Loons the lot.
IME, yes. My daughter is a vegetarian and I respect her choice and work with it. When we go out for dinner I easily become vegetarian for the meal.

But vegans? The few I've met have all been wackos.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:23 PM
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IME, yes. My daughter is a vegetarian and I respect her choice and work with it. When we go out for dinner I easily become vegetarian for the meal.

But vegans? The few I've met have all been wackos.
I suspect we can easily head into the "No True Scotsman" territory here. Or perhaps my understanding of vegan in the context of this thread (e.g. diet) is insufficiently orthodox.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:26 PM
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Why are we assuming the vegan presentation was some kind of nefarious indoctrination?
I think it it perfectly possible (even likely*) that the presentation was a even-handed explanation of what the person giving the presentation thought about food and why he came to think that way. That is not indoctrination, that is education.
Because it said so in the OP:
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Originally Posted by Orville mogul View Post
I should mention that this person was actually an activist, not a nutritional professional, ecologist, etc. Apparently he even showed a shock video with images inside an abbatoir….
That is not "education" for 9 & 10 year olds. That is propaganda and indoctrination made to scare little kids into following the speaker's worldview.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:41 PM
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My opinion is no. Just as I wouldn’t have a pacifist there discussing nuclear war. 9 year olds are still in the phase where they’re just beginning to learn about food and nutrition. They should be focusing on the basics of nutrition and why a banana might be a better choice than a Reeses cup.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:43 PM
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That is not "education" for 9 & 10 year olds. That is propaganda and indoctrination made to scare little kids into following the speaker's worldview.
So an atheist giving a talk at a Catholic school?.... Also a propagandist?

Not every controversial point of view is scary. Kids aren't as fragile as we often make them. And if they are, it's because we make them so.
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  #47  
Old 12-11-2019, 12:52 PM
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If my school is going to teach 9 year-olds anything about eating, it should be about balanced diets, avoiding junk foods, etc.

It's perfectly fine for a nutritionist to point out that there are many ways to have a balanced diet with or without meat. I don't believe that it's any more necessary to drive the point home with a video of a slaughterhouse than it is for the fast food industry to put out videos of children suffering bloody diarrhea and dying from eating e. coli contaminated romaine lettuce.
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Old 12-11-2019, 01:04 PM
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Why are we assuming the vegan presentation was some kind of nefarious indoctrination?
I think it it perfectly possible (even likely*) that the presentation was a even-handed explanation of what the person giving the presentation thought about food and why he came to think that way. That is not indoctrination, that is education.
From the OP:
Quote:
Apparently he even showed a shock video with images inside an abbatoir….
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Originally Posted by The Librarian View Post
Sadly it is not possible to show any footage from the meat industry that will not qualify as "shock video". Again, that is not indoctrination but simple fact. Any discussion about our food without some idea of what we are doing to the animals we eat would be horribly one-sided.
I've seen many cooking shows that walk through the process of how an animal is selected to be butchered, transferred to the abattoir, and then its carcass is carved into pieces of meat. Generally, the slaughter and skinning isn't shown, but they'll sometimes show the rooms where it takes place and briefly explain the process. Jimmy's Farm was one such show. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy%27s_Farm

I've also seen militant vegan protestors carrying signs with pictures of half-skinned animals. When I hear that a vegan activist showed a shock video depicting an abattoir, that's the sort of image that comes to mind. And I wouldn't want those images shown to a nine year old, especially without parental approval.
  #49  
Old 12-11-2019, 01:06 PM
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If my school is going to teach 9 year-olds anything about eating, it should be about balanced diets, avoiding junk foods, etc.

It's perfectly fine for a nutritionist to point out that there are many ways to have a balanced diet with or without meat. I don't believe that it's any more necessary to drive the point home with a video of a slaughterhouse than it is for the fast food industry to put out videos of children suffering bloody diarrhea and dying from eating e. coli contaminated romaine lettuce.
Why are you conflating established meat industry practices with children dying of food born illness, whether from contaminated plants or meats?
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 12-11-2019 at 01:07 PM.
  #50  
Old 12-11-2019, 01:10 PM
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I'm specifically talking about schools. Last I checked, Sesame Street didn't have vegans on it telling people it was immoral to eat meat.

And I've never seen a slaughterhouse video on Mr. Rogers.
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