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Old 01-17-2020, 07:50 PM
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Ridiculous technology needed to open bank account.


I'm (well I was, I'm not any more) trying to open a bank account. They want me to verify my identity, fair enough, but the only thing they will accept is a live selfie. No taking a photo and uploading it, has to be live. No other option, no "if you can't do that contact us on..." just an assumption that people can and are willing to do that. Since I've failed to do it I've got 3 text messages all reminding me to verify. Nobody has thought to actually give me give me a call and find out what the problem is. They've lost quite a hefty investment due to this nonsense to their competitor with slightly worse rates.

Get off my lawn.
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Old 01-17-2020, 08:07 PM
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This is why I only use a B&M credit union.
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Old 01-17-2020, 09:02 PM
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No taking a photo and uploading it, has to be live
I can kind of see the logic here. I assume the point is to compare it to the photo on your ID. So they need to make sure the photo you send them is truly a photo of you, and not a photo of the person whose identity you've stolen that you downloaded from their Facebook page. If you physically went to a branch, they could simply look at you and look at your ID, but I assume you're trying to open it online and this is the technological equivalent.
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Old 01-17-2020, 09:27 PM
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Make it a music video.
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Old 01-17-2020, 09:43 PM
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I have no idea what a "live selfie" is. Some banks allow you to open an account online, without walking into a branch, but in any case they are legally required to verify your identity (name, address, birthday, etc.) so there is a video call involved, it's not enough just to send them a photo of [someone's] passport/ID.
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:54 PM
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You'll be thankful for all the headaches when you hear that someone else's identity has been stolen and all their checks are being deposited in the fake account.

Sad but true that the bad guys make things hard for the good guys!
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Old 01-18-2020, 01:28 AM
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What bank is this? I've opened a half dozen online banks and it's an easy process that takes 15 minutes.

Maybe your name conflicts with that charlatan who harasses pigeons with Robert Frost balloons and they want to make sure you're not him.
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Old 01-18-2020, 02:14 AM
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I can kind of see the logic here... If you physically went to a branch, they could simply look at you and look at your ID, but I assume you're trying to open it online and this is the technological equivalent.
Yup, makes sense to me too. Rather than describe it weirdly as a "live selfie", it's simply a video call.
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Old 01-18-2020, 02:56 AM
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Maybe your name conflicts with that charlatan who harasses pigeons with Robert Frost balloons and they want to make sure you're not him.
If the pigeons were stealing balloons, I'd harass them, too.
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Old 01-18-2020, 03:55 AM
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If the pigeons were stealing balloons, I'd harass them, too.
It's the only way to join the Lost Souls Alliance.

Okay, I need a replay.
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Old 01-18-2020, 06:58 AM
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What bank is this? I've opened a half dozen online banks and it's an easy process that takes 15 minutes.

Maybe your name conflicts with that charlatan who harasses pigeons with Robert Frost balloons and they want to make sure you're not him.
Natwest, trying out a new security from a company called hooyu. It's crap and lost them my £10,000 and I expect many others.
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Old 01-18-2020, 09:03 AM
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And it's not "a video" it's a "selfie", but has to be one being taken at that instant. I don't have the tech or inclination to do that. My PC doesn't have a webcam and my phone is a basic camera phone which I don't surf the web on.
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Old 01-18-2020, 09:21 AM
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How would they be able to determine the timestamp? Taking a selfie and sending an instant text would be easy for me but it would seem that it would be just as easy to pretend to take an instant selfie as it would be to pretend to send an old picture. (Hmmmm, maybe if they made you hold up a sign with a captcha written on it and only gave you a minute to do so, that might tax the 'shopping abilities of most hackers.)

Which isn't to say I've never sent picture proof of something, just not something that was purported to be instant.
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Old 01-18-2020, 09:24 AM
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I don't know how it works other than I can't upload a file, and given I do my internet on my PC and picture taking on my phone and not vice versa I have no idea what they can determine, but it is a ridiculous pseudo security measure that cost them my business.
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Old 01-18-2020, 09:36 AM
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How would they be able to determine the timestamp?
My guess is that you use their website/webcam or phone app/phone camera to take a video of yourself when you press the big red button. Then the AI or maybe a person takes a look to see if your video image is reasonably like your ID card image.
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Old 01-18-2020, 09:38 AM
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Phone images come with a time stamp. I assume there's an App to fake the time-stamp. Maybe the bank only wants crooked customers who are smart enough to operate that App.

I'm so old-fashioned I don't use plastic except at an ATM machine(*), and it would never occur to me to open a bank account other than in person. But I guess the cool kids these days pay just by holding up their smartphone's bar-code for cashier to scan!

Speaking of plastic and ATMs, I've asked before and never gotten an answer: Where I live I can get $2000 (equivalent) cash at almost any ATM, or transfer that amount to a stranger's account. Is that also the case in U.S.A.?
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Old 01-18-2020, 09:44 AM
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As an aside I did want that account so I walked into town to their branch, ID in hand, and was told to wait. 30 minutes later, with people who had arrived later than me having come and gone I walked out; so their in-branch account opening is as fucked as their online but bad service in branch is not something new and worth starting a thread about.
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Old 01-18-2020, 10:11 AM
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I'm so old-fashioned I don't use plastic except at an ATM machine(*), and it would never occur to me to open a bank account other than in person.
I guess I'm the opposite. I've never opened an account in person and I don't think I've actually been inside a bank branch since I was a child being dragged around to boring errands. I was looking for a new bank a couple of years ago, and I tried to open an account at a small local bank, and...I just couldn't figure out how to do it. There was no application form! Eventually the light bulb went off and I realized that you were meant to actually go there. They lost any chance of getting my business with that BS. (I just checked again, and they've now joined...the 1990s? Early 2000s?)

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 01-18-2020 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 01-18-2020, 10:23 AM
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(Hmmmm, maybe if they made you hold up a sign with a captcha written on it and only gave you a minute to do so, that might tax the 'shopping abilities of most hackers.)
.
Or they could just ask you to take the selfie in a particular pose, or holding the id in a specific way, that is selected at random from a large pool of options at the moment the selfie is requested.


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Old 01-18-2020, 11:17 AM
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Speaking of plastic and ATMs, I've asked before and never gotten an answer: Where I live I can get $2000 (equivalent) cash at almost any ATM, or transfer that amount to a stranger's account. Is that also the case in U.S.A.?
The DEFAULT daily ATM withdrawal is usually $300 or $400 to limit fraud. You can request a higher limit if you want.
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:22 AM
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If you have to hold up a sign, the morning newspaper, stand on your head, silly walk, or any other clown shit then I agree with the OP that is completely unprofessional. All you should need is a smartphone with video call functionality (and the bank should support the major apps/brands), possibly access to the app store since some banks have a custom app to access your accounts online, and valid official identification handy.

(And would you entrust your money to a bunch of clowns? Where's the conservatively dressed, correctly polite man or woman who offers you coffee and makes you feel they are doing you a great favour by accepting your paltry ten grand)
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:27 AM
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Speaking of plastic and ATMs, I've asked before and never gotten an answer: Where I live I can get $2000 (equivalent) cash at almost any ATM, or transfer that amount to a stranger's account. Is that also the case in U.S.A.?
As Thelurkinghorror says, $300 is the default. My bank told me I could get that increased, but I never bothered. As for transferring to a stranger's account, I have never seen that option and have a hard time imagining how that would work. The young people have a way to send money around using an app on their phone, but I'm not hip to that either.
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:29 AM
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I'm (well I was, I'm not any more) trying to open a bank account. They want me to verify my identity, fair enough, but the only thing they will accept is a live selfie. No taking a photo and uploading it, has to be live. No other option, no "if you can't do that contact us on..." just an assumption that people can and are willing to do that. Since I've failed to do it I've got 3 text messages all reminding me to verify. Nobody has thought to actually give me give me a call and find out what the problem is. They've lost quite a hefty investment due to this nonsense to their competitor with slightly worse rates.

Get off my lawn.
Next time you contact them let them know how much money you invested with their competition, then tell them to go F themselves.
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:33 AM
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The DEFAULT daily ATM withdrawal is usually $300 or $400 to limit fraud. You can request a higher limit if you want.
Thanks. AFAIK, a lower default daily ATM withdrawal is not offered where I live (though of course the effect can be achieved simply by not keeping more than $X in the account).
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Old 01-18-2020, 05:00 PM
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I don't know how it works other than I can't upload a file, and given I do my internet on my PC and picture taking on my phone and not vice versa I have no idea what they can determine, but it is a ridiculous pseudo security measure that cost them my business.
Think about how simple it would be for a thief, or malicious ex, or anyone else to pretend to be you. All they need is a picture of you, and the bank would have no way of knowing it was actually someone stealing your money.
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Old 01-18-2020, 05:14 PM
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Speaking of plastic and ATMs, I've asked before and never gotten an answer: Where I live I can get $2000 (equivalent) cash at almost any ATM, or transfer that amount to a stranger's account. Is that also the case in U.S.A.?
There are two limits on ATM withdrawals: The limit that your bank puts on your card and the limit that the operator of the ATM imposes.

The typical non-bank ATM has a $400 limit. That's twenty $20 bills. I said typical, each owner chooses their own limit for each ATM. That's basically because the owner of an ATM doesn't want one guy to come by and drain their machine. You can often get around this limit by making multiple transactions. And if you choose to make multiple transactions, the ATM owner charges a separate fee for each transaction, so this basically increases their revenue.

The second limit is the one imposed by the issuer of your ATM card. The limit is typically $500 or less per day. The Citibank Citigold Account (the one that charges the highest fees or requires the highest minimum balances), for example, has a $2000 daily limit. Their lower status accounts have lesser limits.

Being able to transfer money to a stranger's account is very rare and you are unlikely to find it. US banks don't make transferring money to other consumer bank accounts easy. Some banks offer services like Zelle or Venmo that let you transfer small amounts of money to other consumers that have signed up for these services. If you want to give money to a stranger who is not signed up or go above the daily limit, you basically have to give them cash, send them a check, or do an expensive wire transfer.
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Old 01-18-2020, 05:53 PM
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There are two limits on ATM withdrawals: The limit that your bank puts on your card and the limit that the operator of the ATM imposes.

The typical non-bank ATM has a $400 limit. That's twenty $20 bills. I said typical, each owner chooses their own limit for each ATM. That's basically because the owner of an ATM doesn't want one guy to come by and drain their machine. You can often get around this limit by making multiple transactions. And if you choose to make multiple transactions, the ATM owner charges a separate fee for each transaction, so this basically increases their revenue.

The second limit is the one imposed by the issuer of your ATM card. The limit is typically $500 or less per day. The Citibank Citigold Account (the one that charges the highest fees or requires the highest minimum balances), for example, has a $2000 daily limit. Their lower status accounts have lesser limits.

Being able to transfer money to a stranger's account is very rare and you are unlikely to find it. US banks don't make transferring money to other consumer bank accounts easy. Some banks offer services like Zelle or Venmo that let you transfer small amounts of money to other consumers that have signed up for these services. If you want to give money to a stranger who is not signed up or go above the daily limit, you basically have to give them cash, send them a check, or do an expensive wire transfer.
This explains why checks are still in common use in the USA, by the way.
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Old 01-18-2020, 05:57 PM
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I guess I'm the opposite. I've never opened an account in person and I don't think I've actually been inside a bank branch since I was a child being dragged around to boring errands. I was looking for a new bank a couple of years ago, and I tried to open an account at a small local bank, and...I just couldn't figure out how to do it. There was no application form! Eventually the light bulb went off and I realized that you were meant to actually go there. They lost any chance of getting my business with that BS. (I just checked again, and they've now joined...the 1990s? Early 2000s?)
I donít go into a bank branch very often, but I have had to on occasion. Mostly to access a safe deposit box. And then once in a while to withdraw a specific kind of bill, like a $50 or a $100, that I canít get from an ATM, for use as a gift.
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Old 01-18-2020, 06:13 PM
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As Thelurkinghorror says, $300 is the default. My bank told me I could get that increased, but I never bothered. As for transferring to a stranger's account, I have never seen that option and have a hard time imagining how that would work. The young people have a way to send money around using an app on their phone, but I'm not hip to that either.
Most people use Venmo. It goes into your Venmo account then takes a few days if you want to transfer to your bank account. But for actual bank transfers, most banks are members of an alliance called Zelle, you send via email address. I think the transfer amount is something like $5000 per day.
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This explains why checks are still in common use in the USA, by the way.
How so? I only know old people, curmudgeon store owners who are too cheap to pay credit card fees, and personal rent. I write maybe 1 per year or two.
Edit: I realize that's anecdote, but my experience witnessing across generations.

Last edited by thelurkinghorror; 01-18-2020 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 01-18-2020, 07:42 PM
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I donít go into a bank branch very often, but I have had to on occasion. Mostly to access a safe deposit box. And then once in a while to withdraw a specific kind of bill, like a $50 or a $100, that I canít get from an ATM, for use as a gift.
What, your bank doesn't provide on-line access to your safe deposit box yet? How primitive. Downright 19th century, even.

Last edited by Senegoid; 01-18-2020 at 07:42 PM.
  #31  
Old 01-18-2020, 08:08 PM
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Most people use Venmo. It goes into your Venmo account then takes a few days if you want to transfer to your bank account. But for actual bank transfers, most banks are members of an alliance called Zelle, you send via email address. I think the transfer amount is something like $5000 per day.
I count 447 banks and credit unions in Zelle.


There are 4708 FDIC insured banks in the US and 5012 credit unions.

Where do you get the $5000 figure from? Capital One won't even let me transfer $1000. They won't tell you the actual amount, you have to go by trial and error.
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Old 01-18-2020, 08:25 PM
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Most people use Venmo. It goes into your Venmo account then takes a few days if you want to transfer to your bank account. But for actual bank transfers, most banks are members of an alliance called Zelle, you send via email address. I think the transfer amount is something like $5000 per day.

How so? I only know old people, curmudgeon store owners who are too cheap to pay credit card fees, and personal rent. I write maybe 1 per year or two.
Edit: I realize that's anecdote, but my experience witnessing across generations.
If some bank does not offer fee-free instant payments online or at an ATM (via Zelle or RT1 or whatever is used in the region in question), we can legitimately accuse them of being behind the times (which they should care about, since there is always competition). If Zelle users cannot pay their rent because of some low limits, that's a problem, though $5000/day seems like it ought to be enough for a lot of people- though, for comparison, SEPA Instant transfers are currently limited to a default of Ä15000, but I guess that wasn't enough since they're increasing it to 100,000 this year.

ETA less than $1000? Trial and error?!?

Last edited by DPRK; 01-18-2020 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 01-18-2020, 08:57 PM
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ETA less than $1000? Trial and error?!?
Zelle isn't intended for paying your rent or buying a car. It's target audience is millennials who want to split the dinner check at a restaurant.
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Old 01-18-2020, 09:09 PM
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I count 447 banks and credit unions in Zelle.


There are 4708 FDIC insured banks in the US and 5012 credit unions.

Where do you get the $5000 figure from? Capital One won't even let me transfer $1000. They won't tell you the actual amount, you have to go by trial and error.
$2500 sorry, I thought being unsure would be noncommittal enough but I guess not.

Most major banks.
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Zelle isn't intended for paying your rent or buying a car. It's target audience is millennials who want to split the dinner check at a restaurant.
I don't know any so called millennials who use Zelle, it's all Venmo (which sucks but is the standard). Split checks is like 75% of the use.
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Old 01-18-2020, 09:23 PM
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I don't know any so called millennials who use Zelle, it's all Venmo (which sucks but is the standard). Split checks is like 75% of the use.
Yeah, that's who they're aiming at, but apparently not very successfully.
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Old 01-18-2020, 10:06 PM
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I pretty much do everything online but I only use phone apps for a few things (like checking balances but not opening accounts), and I have no way to take a selfie from my computer.
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Old 01-18-2020, 10:19 PM
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Zelle isn't intended for paying your rent or buying a car. It's target audience is millennials who want to split the dinner check at a restaurant.
Clickbait headline: Millennials Are Killing The "Lunch Is My Treat" Industry!
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:24 PM
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Umm....
I think all the luddites here (including the OP) misunderstand what a “live selfie” is.
It’s not a real-time selfie.
It’s a quick motion capture image, usually under 5 seconds or so. The bank wants to know that you are alive, and not a picture of a a picture.
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Old 01-19-2020, 12:23 AM
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I wonder how many Under-40s have or actually use a checking account. Some of my millennial students say they write one check a month... but I polled them and that's only the ones who have a landlord "my age" (late 60s).

Ok, I'm old, but I had to mail someone a check the other day, and I felt like I was trying to remember Stone Age Tech:

Okay, I have to find that pad of skinny papers, where I write down an amount that I'm not giving you right now, but if you take this to your bank, they'll give you cash then send this paper to my bank and they'll pay your bank back, pinky-swear.

Okay, dug the checks out of the closet, but now, what's the date? And why the hell do I have to write $213.00, THEN write out 'Two hundred and thirteen and 00/100'?

Okay, now I have to find an envelope and a stamp... how much postage do I need? And do I lick it? No, it's adhesive, darn I miss that 'stickymint' flavor... now where the hell do I mail it? Are there actual mailboxes still? Have I been walking right by mailboxes and payphones and just not noticing them?


Aaargh, I worked so hard to forget all my Olde Fogie Ways, and now I have to dredge them up again... what's next, you're gonna tell me I have to tape the vinyl album of The Yes Album but reorder the tracks to try to fit it on one cassette?
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Old 01-19-2020, 12:26 AM
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OK, boomers.
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Old 01-19-2020, 12:57 AM
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I wonder how many Under-40s have or actually use a checking account.
Probably most of them. Some people are unbanked of course, and I suppose some people just have a savings account, but a checking account is still the standard way to bank even if you don't use checks.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 01-19-2020 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 01-19-2020, 01:56 AM
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...I don't know any so called millennials who use Zelle, it's all Venmo (which sucks but is the standard). Split checks is like 75% of the use.
Yeah, I'm not sure I've heard of Zelle before. But when I split the bill with younger friends it's getting to be a pain, because they don't use cash, and i don't use Venmo, Google Wallet, or Paypal. Well, I do use Paypal, but I don't like to use it for stuff like that. Anyway, most of my friends have gone all-electronic, but I've never heard of any of them using Zelle.
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Old 01-19-2020, 03:28 AM
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I'd say it's more like, your bank uses Zelle. For the coupla people I occasionally have reasons to send or receive $ electronically, we do it thru our bank's app.
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Old 01-19-2020, 07:07 AM
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There are two limits on ATM withdrawals: The limit that your bank puts on your card and the limit that the operator of the ATM imposes.

The typical non-bank ATM has a $400 limit...
The ... limit ... imposed by the issuer of your ATM card. The limit is typically $500 or less per day....
Being able to transfer money to a stranger's account is very rare ...
Thanks. This confirms what I already guessed: That Thailand's practice, where ability to withdraw $2000 per day, or to transfer that amount to a stranger's account is the norm, is quite different from U.S. practice. Especially since $2000 is relatively a lot, considering the much lower wage levels here. AFAIK the only ATM limit is when it runs out of banknotes. IIRC a bank officer might have mentioned even higher limits were possible, but I've never heard of lower limits.

Of course the ATMs do get a work-out. Even large purchases (new cars, real estate) are often settled with piles of banknotes here!
  #45  
Old 01-19-2020, 01:11 PM
doreen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Especially since $2000 is relatively a lot, considering the much lower wage levels here. AFAIK the only ATM limit is when it runs out of banknotes.
I'm pretty sure limits on the ATM operator side in the US are related to this - a machine that allows $2000 withdrawals is likely to run out of cash more often than one that allows a maximum of $500 to be withdrawn at a time.


As far as checks being common in the US- I pay pretty much everything I can electronically , but there are still things where neither electronic transfers or cash work well. Let's say I'm giving my niece a wedding gift- I'm certainly not going to put a few hundred in cash in a card, I'm not thrilled about sending it through Venmo, and I can't send it through Venmo if she only uses Zelle. Same thing if I want to buy a ticket to a retirement or holiday party at work - if an organizer works in my office, I'll give cash, otherwise, I'm mailing a check except for the one party with Venmo payment information.
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Old 01-19-2020, 01:52 PM
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To clarify: Venmo is an app that you sign up for and use to send money to friends. It's a "social" account, which tells all your other friend who you paid and what the memo was (not dollar amounts). That feature is incredibly stupid, so I put every transaction on private. You have to attach a bank account but if someone pays you and you later make a payment, the money is taken from your Venmo account before touching your checking. It's a terrible, buggy app but most people I know from roughly 28 to 45 use it so it's somewhat necessary.

You sign up for Zelle by having a participating bank account. Apparently there's an app but I've never used it, you can go through your bank's website or app to send money. It is designed to facilitate inter-bank transfers.

Is your average Thai person, living in a city but not a huge expat area, likely to use the ATM as much as someone in the US? I wonder if the norm is rarer large transactions than grabbing $20 for lunch on the way to work.
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Old 01-19-2020, 04:27 PM
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People in Japan regularly carry, and use, large amounts of cash. As opposed to Sweden, Korea, etc. where people think the various apps are cool. It's all a matter of habit (and what the local people you are paying will accept).

Last edited by DPRK; 01-19-2020 at 04:27 PM.
  #48  
Old 01-19-2020, 04:39 PM
suranyi is offline
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Originally Posted by thelurkinghorror View Post
Most people use Venmo. It goes into your Venmo account then takes a few days if you want to transfer to your bank account. But for actual bank transfers, most banks are members of an alliance called Zelle, you send via email address. I think the transfer amount is something like $5000 per day.

How so? I only know old people, curmudgeon store owners who are too cheap to pay credit card fees, and personal rent. I write maybe 1 per year or two.
Edit: I realize that's anecdote, but my experience witnessing across generations.
A lot of people I know donít have Venmo. But then I deal with a lot of people in their 50s, 60s, 70s, and even 80s. My mother-in-law, in her 80s, has probably never used the Internet in her life.

Besides, those ďcurmudgeon store ownersĒ mean at least two checks per month: One to my sonís piano teacher, and one to my cleaning lady.
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  #49  
Old 01-20-2020, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Calavera View Post
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Thanks. This confirms what I already guessed: That Thailand's practice, where ability to withdraw $2000 per day, or to transfer that amount to a stranger's account is the norm, is quite different from U.S. practice.
As far as I can tell any pretty much any banking practice introduced in the 21st century is quite different from U.S. practice.

All 3 countries I have regular contact with have the ability to electronically send money from one bank account to any other bank account in that country, for free, pretty much instantly.
In each country there is also a national app which lets people send money from their mobile number to another mobile number using linked bank accounts, either for free or for a trivial cost like 25c per use. I think all 3 now also have the ability to pay directly in accepting physcial stores via the app. The swedish app can also be used as a payment method in ecommerce sites and the UK app can be linked to contactless fobs, wristbands or coffecups(!!!) so you can use those to pay for things from your bank account.

The UK is pretty backwards with cheques and so on but even they seem light years ahead of the US.
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  #50  
Old 01-20-2020, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by beowulff View Post
Umm....
I think all the luddites here (including the OP) misunderstand what a ďlive selfieĒ is.
Itís not a real-time selfie.
Itís a quick motion capture image, usually under 5 seconds or so. The bank wants to know that you are alive, and not a picture of a a picture.
And how is that quick motion capture image supposed to be made? Is it supposed to be done by the bank, or by the person who is opening the account?

It seems to me that the OP did not give a good description of what the BANK means by "live selfie". Nor did the OP explain why it is a difficult thing to do. I have a feeling that the real problem is a miscommunication between the bank and the OP.
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