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Old 02-25-2020, 04:21 PM
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Are 'heathen' and 'pagan' synonymous? If not, what's the difference?


Both 'heathen' and 'pagan' ususally translate to the single word 'Heide' in my native German. Now 'Heide' generally means "a non-Christian person", be it someone of another faith or an atheist (not that we use the word very often any longer, it's becoming more and ancient sounding the more of our population are heathens.) I suspect that 'heathen' and 'Heide' are etymologically related, but don't know if they exactly cover the same connotations. As with 'pagan', I know that there are modern religious communities which call themselves 'pagan' or 'neo-pagan', so that word in English probably has a somewhat different meaning than 'heathen'. In fewer words, I'm confused. Can you help me?
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:34 PM
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Let me see if I can help you out, with the caveat that this is based on current American usage and may differ a bit in other English dialects.

Heathen: non-Christian of any sort (so would encompass Pagans, Hindus, Atheists, etc.)
Pagan: polytheist, believer in multiple deities.

Within the sub-set of heathens known as Neo-Pagans, a "Heathen" might refer to a pagan following a Norse/Germanic tradition or reconstruction or whatever, which are also sometimes called "Asatru"

Some of the more fundamentalist Christian Protestants may also have slightly differing definitions for heathen and pagan, but I don't hang out with those sorts so I'm not 100% sure of that.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:34 PM
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"Heathen" and "pagan" both come from different languages but a similar background: "paganus" in Latin means "rustic, country hick" (from "pagus", countryside district). "Heathen" is Germanic for the same idea (cognate with "heath").

The idea of these words meaning "non-Christian" came from the historical fact that the rise of Christianity in Europe was largely an urban effect: Christianity sought to convert the elites, not the peasants, because once the baron or king converted, the rubes in the woods would inevitably convert (if they knew what's good for them, even if they had to be reminded at sword-point). If non-Christian beliefs and practices could hold out, they could really only do so in the backwoods, which is where the verbal connection comes from.

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Old 02-25-2020, 04:36 PM
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"Heathen" apparently traditionally meant someone who didn't believe in the "God of the Bible" (that is, someone who isn't Jewish, Christian, or Muslim).

"Pagan" appears to, in at least some contexts, specifically refer to someone who believes in/worships a polytheistic religion, or worships nature.

Broadly, while a pagan might also be considered (by a Christian, Muslim, or Jew) to also be a heathen, not all heathens are necessarily pagans (for example, atheists).

Also, I might suspect that some conservative Christians may see Jews and Muslims as "heathens" -- I've read writings by Christians who explicitly deny that Jews and Muslims worship the same God that they do, since Jews and Muslims don't acknowledge the Holy Trinity.

However, note that both of those definitions on Dictionary.com also refer to the other word, and I would suspect that, in casual use, the words are probably seen by many non-scholars as more-or-less interchangeable.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 02-25-2020 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:39 PM
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Colloquially heathen almost always means something more akin to uncivilized, but also indicates an indulgent attitude toward said 'heathen'. Otherwise, yeah, "a non-Christian person". Pagan, I would immediately assume means a follower or participant of Wicca/witchcraft. Pagan may also have more of a flavor of the taboo about it, perhaps as a heritage from the perception of witches as licentious and malevolent while heathen rather suggests foreignness. I would not refer to anyone as a heathen or a pagan seriously unless they had already indicated that I should as otherwise both words suggest an element of derision.

That's just my gut reaction to the words.
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Old 02-25-2020, 05:00 PM
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Heathen: non-Christian of any sort (so would encompass Pagans, Hindus, Atheists, etc.)
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Otherwise, yeah, "a non-Christian person".
Would you refer to a Jewish person as a heathen?

kenobi 65 has it right. "Heathen" refers to those "not of the book," and does not include Jews or Muslims.
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Old 02-25-2020, 05:04 PM
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An interesting article here, from 1977, which describes how the concept of 'paganism' has been interpreted in the context of the early Roman Christian period.
http://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/paganus.html
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The 'traditional' view of paganus is that its obvious derivation from pagus and its original sense in classical Latin (= 'rustic, hick') governed its adoption by Christian writers. In spite of counter-arguments supported by Harnack, this is the view taken by the most comprehensive survey of the question, that of J. Zeiller.[2] This view interprets the evidence as showing that 'paganism' survived most tenaciously in the country districts, thus the attachment of the old word for country-dweller.

The 'modern' view observes that paganus had taken on a special sense in the early empire, coming to mean 'civil, civilian' as opposd to 'military'.[3] The most recent and circumspect defense of that view was made by B. Altaner.[4] This argument holds that the new spcial sense of paganus was much the most common in the Roman Empire and that its Christian adoption looks to the paganus as someone who is not a miles Christi.

A third view attempts to mediate between the two so far summarized; it received its classical formulation by C. Mohrmann.[5] By minute analysis of texts, this view notes that the use of paganus to mean 'civilian' was a special case of a more general use to mean 'outsider' -- whether the general or the special sense came first is not clear.[6] In that view, paganus comes to mean 'pagan' simply as a non-tendentious term for someone who is outside the Christian community; the pejorative connotations of the earlier interpretations are missing.
Hick, civilian, outsider. Take your pick.
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Old 02-25-2020, 05:12 PM
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Would you refer to a Jewish person as a heathen?

kenobi 65 has it right. "Heathen" refers to those "not of the book," and does not include Jews or Muslims.
That's interesting because I thought once more of the use of the German word 'Heide'. I don't remember having seen/heard any usage of it for Jews, but many times for Muslims, especially in the context of the crusades. In that context, the usage was most probably a translation of the word the medieval Church used for the Muslims, in Church latin. Would that word have been 'paganus'?
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Old 02-25-2020, 05:37 PM
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Would you refer to a Jewish person as a heathen?
Me, personally? No - because not being Christian I don't use the word in that manner and don't divide the world into Christian/non-Christian

I have, however, seen some Christian sects refer to anyone not their sort of Christian, including others "of the Book", as heathens.
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Old 02-25-2020, 05:51 PM
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I don't remember having seen/heard any usage of it for Jews, but many times for Muslims, especially in the context of the crusades. In that context, the usage was most probably a translation of the word the medieval Church used for the Muslims, in Church latin. Would that word have been 'paganus'?
During the Crusades, Muslims were frequently referred to as infidels, those who actively rejected and opposed Christianity. Muslims were regarded more as schismatics or heretics since they recognized Christ as a prophet but not the Savior. They were monotheists, and so would not be lumped with pagans, who were specifically polytheists.
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Old 02-25-2020, 05:54 PM
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I have, however, seen some Christian sects refer to anyone not their sort of Christian, including others "of the Book", as heathens.
In some cases, that would even include Roman Catholics and others.
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Old 02-25-2020, 06:14 PM
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During the Crusades, Muslims were frequently referred to as infidels, those who actively rejected and opposed Christianity. Muslims were regarded more as schismatics or heretics since they recognized Christ as a prophet but not the Savior. They were monotheists, and so would not be lumped with pagans, who were specifically polytheists.
Now you come in and make things even more complicated by bringing up a third word I hadn't thought about . I suspect that the Arabic equivalent to 'infidel' is the word Islamic extremists call Christians, because that's always translated as 'Ungläubiger' in Germany, which OTOH is the literal translation of 'infidel'.

(Infidels is also a great Dylan album...)
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Old 02-25-2020, 06:27 PM
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I am surprised by the OP because I have a good friend named Heide. Not Heidi. She is from Vienna and I always assumed that that was the Austrian version of Heidi. That name is generally thought of as the German version of Heather. Could you comment?
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Old 02-25-2020, 06:32 PM
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I suspect that the Arabic equivalent to 'infidel' is the word Islamic extremists call Christians, because that's always translated as 'Ungläubiger' in Germany, which OTOH is the literal translation of 'infidel'.
One Arabic equivalent to infidel is kafir, although I don't know about its contemporary use with regards to Christians. (Although it is the historical basis of the term, this is not to be confused with Kaffir, a derogatory term for blacks in South Africa.)
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Old 02-25-2020, 06:36 PM
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I would have thought that "heathen" means, not just a non-Christian, but anyone who is not a member of whatever the speaker's religion is. Thus, a Christian could refer to a Jew or a Muslim as a heathen, but a Jew or a Muslim could likewise refer to a Christian as a heathen.
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Old 02-25-2020, 06:42 PM
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I am surprised by the OP because I have a good friend named Heide. Not Heidi. She is from Vienna and I always assumed that that was the Austrian version of Heidi. That name is generally thought of as the German version of Heather. Could you comment?
Heide=heathen and Heide=heather are homonyms. But as gnoitall wrote above, Heide/Heide and heathen/heather are etymologically related.
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Old 02-25-2020, 08:21 PM
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I would have thought that "heathen" means, not just a non-Christian, but anyone who is not a member of whatever the speaker's religion is. Thus, a Christian could refer to a Jew or a Muslim as a heathen, but a Jew or a Muslim could likewise refer to a Christian as a heathen.
The Jewish terms for any non-Jew are gentile or goy. I am not aware that a distinction is made for other "people of the book."
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Old 02-25-2020, 09:05 PM
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: ..."paganus" in Latin means "rustic, country hick" (from "pagus", countryside district). "

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....The 'traditional' view of paganus is that its obvious derivation from pagus and its original sense in classical Latin (= 'rustic, hick') governed its adoption by Christian writers ....
And the word in Latin is related to pangere ('to fasten', 'to fix or affix') and ultimately comes from Proto-Indo-European *pag- ('to fix' in the same sense). cite : https://www.etymonline.com/word/pagan

Also

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Pagan and heathen are primarily the same in meaning; but pagan is sometimes distinctively applied to those nations that, although worshiping false gods, are more cultivated, as the Greeks and Romans, and heathen to uncivilized idolaters, as the tribes of Africa. A Mohammedan is not counted a pagan much less a heathen. [Century Dictionary, 1897]
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Old 02-25-2020, 09:14 PM
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According to the OED, a heathen holds religious beliefs that are considered primitive or unenlightened (relative to the speaker's beliefs, naturally, or to the culturally dominant beliefs), while a pagan is someone who doesn't subscribe to the major or dominant religion (or any of them, if there are moer than one). "Pagan" can have the same pejorative connotations that "heathen" has, but doesn't necessarily have them.

From a Christian perspective, Jews and Muslims are not normally considered heathens, because their religious beliefs can't easily be dismisses as primitive or unenlightened, given how much they have in common with Christian beliefs. They could be classed as pagans, but only when "pagan" is used in the non-pejorative sense.
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Old 02-25-2020, 09:40 PM
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Well, I have to admit that know I'm even more confused after all that contradictory information. Seems to be even more complicated than I thought. (Isn't that always true with anything religiously related, if you may allow a non GQ comment?)
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Old 02-25-2020, 09:48 PM
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Well, I have to admit that know I'm even more confused after all that contradictory information. Seems to be even more complicated than I thought. (Isn't that always true with anything religiously related, if you may allow a non GQ comment?)
Indeed so -- and part of it seems to be that, while there are fairly distinct, well-defined definitions for both terms, it's also clear that both terms are often used in a broader (and sometimes synonymous) sense.
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Old 02-25-2020, 09:50 PM
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In Two Years Before the Mast, Dana points out that in Yankee sailor speak a "Christian" country means a "civilized" one. He never mentions pagans or heathens.
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Old 02-25-2020, 10:22 PM
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Well, I have to admit that know I'm even more confused after all that contradictory information. Seems to be even more complicated than I thought. (Isn't that always true with anything religiously related, if you may allow a non GQ comment?)
I think it's more that it's always true with anything language-related. It's a product of the tiresome but incontrovertible reality that a word can have more than one sense, that the sense in which a word is used may change over time, and that a word can be used in different senses by different speakers.
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Old 02-26-2020, 12:56 AM
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I think it's more that it's always true with anything language-related. It's a product of the tiresome but incontrovertible reality that a word can have more than one sense, that the sense in which a word is used may change over time, and that a word can be used in different senses by different speakers.
Of course that's also true. And when it comes to linguistic questions of a religious nature, all bets are off...
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Old 02-26-2020, 02:42 AM
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From a Christian perspective, Jews and Muslims are not normally considered heathens, because their religious beliefs can't easily be dismisses as primitive or unenlightened, given how much they have in common with Christian beliefs. They could be classed as pagans, but only when "pagan" is used in the non-pejorative sense.
I know Medieval Christians sometimes referred to Muslims as "pagans" (or "paynims", which comes from the same root) but are there any instances of Christians referring to Jews as either pagans or "paynims"? I realize that Wiktionary entry says paynim could be used to mean Jew--but, well, it's a Wiki. I wonder if there are any more authoritative cites? (The OED gives "non-Jew"--that is "gentile"--as an obsolete meaning of "paynim", but doesn't really seem to support the use of paynim to mean Jew. Of course I've definitely seen "paynim" used to mean "Muslim" in Medieval Christian sources, however much that ignored the common roots of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.)



In modern use, I think "pagan" definitely has a connotation of "polytheist" or someone who adheres to some sort of nature-based religion. "Heathen" could mean that, but can also just mean irreligious, especially in a humorous sense: "Bob's just some kind of heathen, I think--he sleeps in or watches a football game on Sundays, but it's not like he goes to atheist meetings, either." To say Bob is a "pagan" on the other hand, would to me strongly imply that he and his friends get naked on Samhain and Beltane and paint themselves blue and worship the Earth Mother and the Horned God, or something along those lines.

"Heathen" could also be used to mean--again humorously--people who do go to atheist meetings: "Atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, secular humanists, and other assorted heathens." At least, I often use it that way. But I definitely wouldn't use "pagan" in that sort of context at all.
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Old 02-26-2020, 08:06 AM
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Would you refer to a Jewish person as a heathen?
I wouldn't because I wouldn't use heathen at all in reference to someone's religion. But if someone else referred to a Jewish person as a heathen, it wouldn't irritate my sprachgefühl at all. But I probably wouldn't continue talking to that person.
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:32 AM
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My mom always called us kids and our friends "heathens", in a lighthearted way, usually implying we were dirty, wild and uncouth. I was an adult before I realized the word normally means "unchristian" and is a synonym for "pagan".
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:31 AM
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Well, I have to admit that know I'm even more confused after all that contradictory information. Seems to be even more complicated than I thought. (Isn't that always true with anything religiously related, if you may allow a non GQ comment?)
It's not so much contradictory but that meanings have shifted over time. "Terrible" used to mean "inspiring terror," and "awful" meant "inspiring awe."

Centuries ago "heathen" and "pagan" used to have some fairly specific religious meanings. With the waning of the importance of religion in everyday life, these meanings have become much looser and imprecise. (This said, there are religious sects that may still use them in their original senses, or even expand their use.)

As has been said, "heathen" is rarely if ever used as a serious description of religion these days (except as said by some religious groups). Most people these days use it jocularly, similarly to "savage." This accounts in part for the range of definitions people are offering for it - there is no longer a precise definition.

Likewise, "pagan" is rarely used for most polytheists, such as Hindus or African animists. Instead it is used for those who explicitly identify as pagans themselves, such as Wiccans or neo-pagans.
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Old 02-26-2020, 12:45 PM
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The Jewish terms for any non-Jew are gentile or goy. I am not aware that a distinction is made for other "people of the book."
This may be because "Jew" is both a religious belief and a genetic background.

In the strictest interpretation, you could believe 100% of the Jewish religion, but unless your mother was a Jew, you couldn't truly be Jewish. (Which is partly why they weren't big on evangelizing or conversions.) So being 'people of the book' were just as much gentile as any other non-Jew.

This isn't so true any more, I think (except maybe in the ultra-orthodox?). I know both converts to the Jewish faith, and genetic-born Jews who don't practice their faith at all (just like many people who were raised Christian).
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Old 02-26-2020, 01:01 PM
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So being 'people of the book' were just as much gentile as any other non-Jew.
There's also the fact that for Jews the New Testament or the Koran are about as significant as the Book of Mormon is to Roman Catholics.
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Old 02-26-2020, 03:04 PM
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The Jewish terms for any non-Jew are gentile or goy. I am not aware that a distinction is made for other "people of the book."
This is another one of those "terminology is relative" things. To a Mormon anyone outside the LDS is a gentile, including Jewish folk.
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Old 02-26-2020, 03:09 PM
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In Two Years Before the Mast, Dana points out that in Yankee sailor speak a "Christian" country means a "civilized" one. He never mentions pagans or heathens.
In the Rumantsch language of Switzerland, the word for 'human being' is carstgàn /karsˈtɕan/, which is literally 'Christian'.
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Old 02-26-2020, 03:14 PM
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Does anyone else have "City of Crime" going through their head now?
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Old 02-26-2020, 03:32 PM
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During the Crusades, Muslims were frequently referred to as infidels, those who actively rejected and opposed Christianity. Muslims were regarded more as schismatics or heretics since they recognized Christ as a prophet but not the Savior. They were monotheists, and so would not be lumped with pagans, who were specifically polytheists.
Middle English and Early Modern English authors used the word paynim (i.e. pagan) to mean Muslim, or as they misnamed it back then, "Mahometan."

ETA— Of course, they were ignorant of what they were talking about. I guess that usage dropped out circa the Enlightenment, when Europeans began to actually learn about Islam.

Last edited by Johanna; 02-26-2020 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 02-26-2020, 03:37 PM
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Heathen: non-Christian of any sort (so would encompass Pagans, Hindus, Atheists, etc.)
Pagan: polytheist, believer in multiple deities.
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
"Heathen" apparently traditionally meant someone who didn't believe in the "God of the Bible" (that is, someone who isn't Jewish, Christian, or Muslim).

"Pagan" appears to, in at least some contexts, specifically refer to someone who believes in/worships a polytheistic religion, or worships nature.
I think the distinction goes back to the early days of Christianity when their big competition was the Greco-Roman Pantheon; Jupiter/Zeus, Juno/Hera, Mars/Ares, Neptune/Poseidon, and all of them.

Christianity was also more organized in the cities and those were the first places to convert over. Out in the countryside, however, the old religion lingered on longer. That might explain the connection of paganism being seen as a rustic religion.

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Old 02-26-2020, 04:09 PM
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Would you refer to a Jewish person as a heathen?

kenobi 65 has it right. "Heathen" refers to those "not of the book," and does not include Jews or Muslims.
When we were making arrangements for my Mother's Methodist funeral, we explained to the Minister that death was a tragic thing for Jews, and not to be joked about at the funeral.
He called us "heathens" and made jokes at the funeral.
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Old 02-26-2020, 05:17 PM
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In the strictest interpretation, you could believe 100% of the Jewish religion, but unless your mother was a Jew, you couldn't truly be Jewish.
Unless you converted, which for thousands of years has actually been a time-consuming and difficult process. Deliberately so. But anyone who went fully through the process was considered just as Jewish as any other Jew. It wasn't just about belief, it was also about ritual process.
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Old 02-26-2020, 08:24 PM
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Unless you converted, which for thousands of years has actually been a time-consuming and difficult process. Deliberately so. But anyone who went fully through the process was considered just as Jewish as any other Jew. It wasn't just about belief, it was also about ritual process.
Ruth.
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Old 02-26-2020, 08:46 PM
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Are the Three wise men (part of nativity scenes) also considered heathen and pagan ?
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:54 PM
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Are the Three wise men (part of nativity scenes) also considered heathen and pagan ?
The only information on them in the Bible is in Matthew, who merely describes them as wise men (no number is given) who came from the East. The word magi used in the text may indicate they were Zoroastrian priests from Persia/Iran. It's debatable whether Zoroastrianism is monotheistic or dualistic. As non-Jews, they would have been heathens; they may or may not have been pagans. With regard to Christian symbolism, they are usually depicted as coming from Europe, Asia, and Africa, and represent the non-Jewish peoples of the world recognizing Christ as Lord.
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Old 02-27-2020, 06:17 AM
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As I posted in the recent thread, there are references to other individuals as "Magi" in the Bible and Josephus who would seem to not be Zoroastrian and in a couple cases probably Jewish. By that time it was a general term for a mystic/whatever type person regardless of religion.

The Magi in Matthew could have been Jewish.
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Old 02-27-2020, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
The only information on them in the Bible is in Matthew, who merely describes them as wise men (no number is given) who came from the East. The word magi used in the text may indicate they were Zoroastrian priests from Persia/Iran. It's debatable whether Zoroastrianism is monotheistic or dualistic. As non-Jews, they would have been heathens; they may or may not have been pagans. With regard to Christian symbolism, they are usually depicted as coming from Europe, Asia, and Africa, and represent the non-Jewish peoples of the world recognizing Christ as Lord.
Based on my limited exposure to Christianity (mostly Catholics), I understood that the Magi are regarded as Saints. So they are saints and heathen ?

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Old 02-27-2020, 07:17 AM
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The Magi in Matthew could have been Jewish.
Whoever they were, they were described as being "from the East," and therefore not intended to be Jewish. The whole point of the story was that they were foreigners.
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Old 02-27-2020, 07:26 AM
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Based on my limited exposure to Christianity (mostly Catholics), I understood that the Magi are regarded as Saints. So they are saints and heathen ?
They would have been heathens before they acknowledged the Christ child as Lord. After that, they would have been regarded as Christians. But they are basically mythical. The Gospel offers no information on them beyond what I said above. Of course over time they acquired names and backstories and came to be regarded as saints. I'm actually a little surprised that the Catholic Church still lists them as saints, and hasn't demoted them like other "saints" for which there is no historical evidence like St. George and St. Christopher.
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:27 AM
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They would have been heathens before they acknowledged the Christ child as Lord. After that, they would have been regarded as Christians.
As far as I know, the Magi went back to their respective faiths after welcoming Baby Jesus and gifting Mother Mary. Jesus would himself take another 30+ years before preaching.

There are many Hindus, I know, who pray to Jesus and accept him as a “God” but they are still heathen or pagan because they worship other “Gods”.

So why this exception for the Magi and elevating them to sainthood?

( I do understand that this a matter of faith and May not always driven by logic. No offense intended)

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Old 02-27-2020, 11:15 AM
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The Jewish terms for any non-Jew are gentile or goy. I am not aware that a distinction is made for other "people of the book."
In general conversation among Jews, you are correct that "gentile" and "goy" are used for all non-Jews, regardless of whether they are Roman Catholic, Wiccan, Muslim, or whatever.

But it is different in theological discussions about what God expects from us. Jewish belief is that while the full set of Jewish practice is required only of Jews, God does expect non-Jews to follow certain basic laws including prohibitions on murder, theft, and idolatry/polytheism. It's the last one that gets complicated, with some religions being clearly monotheistic while others are not.

Even so, this distinction does not appear in any native English word. But the dialect used by many English-speaking Orthodox Jews does include the "word" avodazara-nik, referring to the adherent of a religion which Judaism considers to be idolatrous and/or polytheistic. ("Avoda Zara" is a Hebrew term literally meaning "foreign worship".)
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Old 02-27-2020, 11:30 AM
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As far as I know, the Magi went back to their respective faiths after welcoming Baby Jesus and gifting Mother Mary. Jesus would himself take another 30+ years before preaching.
Where did you get that information? As I said, the Magi are mythical. But according to Catholic tradition Sts. Caspar, Balthasar, and Melchior (the Magi) were baptized in 40 AD by St. Thomas, who proselytized to the East. They eventually died as martyrs.

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So why this exception for the Magi and elevating them to sainthood?

( I do understand that this a matter of faith and May not always driven by logic. No offense intended)
Because according to tradition they were baptized and became Christian (at least one supposedly became a bishop and was martyred on the altar) and no longer worshiped other gods. But all of this has the same factual basis as the tale of St. George and the dragon.
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Old 02-27-2020, 11:57 AM
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Whoever they were, they were described as being "from the East," and therefore not intended to be Jewish. The whole point of the story was that they were foreigners.
There are basically two statements regarding their origins. That they came from the East and that they returned to their own country. But quite a few Jews lived in countries to the East. There were Jews documented in noticeable numbers even as far east as S. India in 70AD so they had to have been there for quite some time before that. So the "East"/"Own country" stuff means little. Note that Alexandria had the largest population of Jewish folk at the time of any city. Definitely not in the same country. Would you presume that travelers to Jerusalem at the time from the SW were not Jewish? Lots of documentation of Jews from Alexandria going to Jerusalem then.

If you take them as mystic Jews coming to worship the new born King of the Jews, that's entirely consistent with the Matthew. If you have an "angle" to generate that Jesus is the King of All (which the text explicitly does not state), then you have to do some mental gyrations.

You can always argue that "the whole point" of something is such-and-such if you start with that as an assumption.
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Old 02-27-2020, 12:04 PM
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Server error. Do not post dupe. Do not collect $200.

Last edited by ftg; 02-27-2020 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 02-27-2020, 12:12 PM
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Due to The Troubles, somehow a second post got put in. I tried to edit it, but that also got lost. Anway ...

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